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Economic Crisis; Coronavirus and Colleges; Trump's Distraction Strategy. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired May 19, 2020 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:00]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Our special coverage continues now with Kate Bolduan.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Kate Bolduan. Thank you so much for joining us this hour.

Any minute now, President Trump will be speaking from the White House. He's holding a Cabinet meeting. And for the first time in recent history, that meaning is actually going to be taking place in the East Room, a move to allow for more social distancing.

Cameras are going to be allowed in. And that typically means, as you well know, the president is going to have something to say.

So, what could the message be? It looks like we just got a preview. And it is what he has been doing for the past few weeks as the death toll climbs, defiance and distraction, quite frankly.

The list is long.

Let us start with hydroxychloroquine. He says he's taking it, though medical experts have warned against using it outside of a hospital or clinical trial. Here's what he just said on Capitol Hill.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It doesn't hurt people.

It's been out in the market for 60 or 65 years for malaria, lupus and other things. I think it gives you an additional level of safety.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: It doesn't hurt people, he says.

He should really ask his FDA about that, because they have warned about it. Another example? Testing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: It could be that testing is, frankly, overrated. Maybe it is overrated. We have more cases than anybody in the world. But why? Because we do more testing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: But health experts, including in his White House task force, continue to insist much more testing is required to contain the virus. Not overrated at all.

You can also look to his refusal to wear a face mask, including today to visit Republicans on Capitol Hill, or his insistence that he's going to continue shaking hands.

If you're left wondering, what is the motivation of all of this could be, since it all goes against what medical experts are advising the rest of the country do, listen to what the president said yesterday, when he first acknowledged that he's taking hydroxychloroquine.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I was just waiting to see your eyes light up when I said this, but -- when I announced this.

But, yes, I have taken it for about a week-and-a-half now. And I'm still here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Waiting for your eyes to light up, the big reveal.

But one thing that he can't deflect, no matter, no matter what, is the real crisis that the country is still facing, both in terms of public health and also in terms of the economy.

The virus has now killed more than 91,000 Americans. More than 1.5 million people in the country have been infected. And more than 36.5 million people have filed for unemployment benefits since March.

The numbers continue to astound.

Let's get to it, though.

CNN's Kaitlan Collins, she joins me now. She's live at the White House.

Kaitlan, what struck you about what the president just said on Capitol Hill? And we're very likely to hear more of it in just a few minutes.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, we haven't really seen him go at length today as he was answering questions, so he could do that in this Cabinet meeting here today just in a few moments, a Cabinet meeting that he has not had in quite some time.

And while he was on the Hill, though, he was defending his use of hydroxychloroquine. When he was asked by our colleague Manu Raju, you're not a doctor. Some doctors have recommended against taking this if you have coronavirus. So why is the president promoting it? He acknowledged, of course, that he's not, but he said he works with

doctors. And, Kate, he downplayed some of those studies, including a Veterans Affairs one, that showed that, actually, it can have harmful side effects if coronavirus patients do take hydroxychloroquine.

Now, that comes after we learned that the vice president himself said he is not taking it. And, of course, we know the president started taking it after one of his staffers tested positive. So did one of the vice president's.

But he says his doctor right now has not recommended that he start taking hydroxychloroquine. And, of course, this all comes after late last night the president published that letter on Twitter talking about how he is threatening to permanently cut off funding to the World Health Organization unless major changes are made, though, Kate, today, so far, he he's been pretty hesitant to say exactly what changes it is he wants to see.

And we know that at times he's criticized the WHO for things like praising China, being too slow to respond to the coronavirus outbreak, criticisms that the president himself has also faced.

BOLDUAN: Yes, well, there's a lot that his Cabinet can and is focused on. Let's see if there are updates coming from this Cabinet meeting on how they're responding to this crisis in the country.

Kaitlan will be with us. Stick around. Kaitlan, thank you so much.

Join me also right now is Dr. Steven Nissen. He's chief academic officer at the Cleveland Clinic's Heart, Vascular & Thoracic Institute. And Dr. Michael Mina, a professor of epidemiology at Harvard's School of Public Health.

Doctors, thank you both for being here. I really appreciate it.

Dr. Nissen, you have some real concerns about the use of hydroxychloroquine to treat the coronavirus right now, as studies are still under way. Why are you so concerned coming from, just to reinforce the point with everyone at home, you're a cardiologist?

[15:05:00]

DR. STEVEN NISSEN, CLEVELAND CLINIC: I am a cardiologist. And I do have concerns.

This drug hydroxychloroquine has been associated with a very serious heart rhythm disturbance known as ventricular tachycardia. And it can be lethal. Now, in the absence of evidence of benefit, that potential for harm is quite serious.

And what we worry about is that people will mimic the behavior of the president, get their hands on the drug, people that obviously shouldn't be taking it, and have this very serious adverse effect.

And so it is really important that people not take this to the point where they actually take the drug. Let's get the research done. And if there's a benefit, great. I'm very dubious about whether there will be a benefit.

But, certainly, in the absence of a benefit, people should not be taking this drug.

BOLDUAN: And, Dr. Nissen, one more for you.

The president has often offered -- has talked about it -- and he did it again today, actually -- in defending using hydroxychloroquine, against FDA guidelines, because he says it's been around a long time, it's used to treat other illnesses, so why not?

He said today even it doesn't hurt people. As a cardiologist, what do you say to a patient who would say the very same to you in your office?

NISSEN: Well, first of all, these drugs have been around a while, but they're used to treat serious disorders, like lupus and rheumatoid arthritis, not used very much anymore for prophylaxis for malaria.

The risk-benefit ratio is favorable if you have an established indication for the drug. But, even there, physicians are very, very careful. I just a few weeks ago, I treated a patient with rheumatoid arthritis that came into the coronary care unit on hydroxychloroquine and had a series of arrhythmias, required eight or 10 shocks.

That's a -- that patient was very lucky to survive the episode. I don't want that to happen to people who just casually take the drug because they hear from the president that it's really OK to do that.

BOLDUAN: And, Dr. Mina, from a public health standpoint, clear and consistent messaging is a cornerstone of it.

More broadly, what is the impact of the president of the United States saying, essentially, it's fine, and I'm fine? And what he's doing is endorsing this, essentially, while the FDA says the opposite.

DR. MICHAEL MINA, HARVARD UNIVERSITY T.H. CHAN SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH: I think -- so there's two parts to that.

But one of the major features is any sort of confusion in terms of public health messaging can be extraordinary. And if -- when there's confusion in the public, then it essentially gives the average person sort of free rein, if you will, to make whatever decision they want to make based on whichever data they want to choose to look at.

But we know that some of that data is actually backed by evidence, and some of it is just words from the president that may not be backed by evidence.

But when there's confusion and discord in terms of how -- the messages that the public is getting, it leads to just increased divisions (AUDIO GAP) good thing when we have division like this, when we're dealing with a crisis, and particularly when that division is centered around best practices to control the outbreak and to treat people in the hospital.

BOLDUAN: And I think we can all acknowledge these are two very important men, as you're both getting calls as we're on air, which is part of the fun of getting on TV in the era of coronavirus.

(LAUGHTER)

BOLDUAN: So, we will continue on.

But, Dr. Mina, another thing I want to get -- ask about is, as we are standing by for the president, who will be meeting with his Cabinet, there's one important question that continues to linger in my mind.

It sounds simple, but I think it's kind of huge. Is anyone going to be wearing masks Because the model that the White House has been leaning on in terms of death projections, they just revised their death projection down slightly because what they have found the positive impact that mask-wearing is proving to have in limiting the spread in populations.

As the crisis continues, how fundamental are masks in the fight? And what does it mean, again, if the president won't wear one?

MINA: Masks are absolutely essential when it comes to respiratory viruses.

There was confusion early on, again, because there was confusing public health messages, saying that masks weren't necessary, for example, among people who were not ill. But that messaging was really about -- with an effort to preserve the masks that did exist and really make sure that there were sufficient numbers for health care workers.

But there's never been a question in the public health world of whether or not masks can -- whether their absolute benefit is there. And it absolutely is.

[15:10:03]

It prevents the virus and the droplets that carry the virus from moving beyond the mask and on to other people. It might not always be perfect, but certainly any reduction in transmission gives huge gains to prevent spread.

And so, again, with the president choosing to not wear a mask, that's sending a very clear message to anyone who wants to receive it as such that it's OK to not wear a mask. And that is -- that just goes against everything we know about this virus and its respiratory transmission route.

The absence -- the presence of masks will undoubtedly prevent transmission from spreading so quickly. And I think a lot of us wish that the president would send a consistent message that's consistent with the data that we know, with the science and with the public health authorities in his own administration, that mask-wearing is important to protect public health. BOLDUAN: Yes, I'm constantly confounded with the pushback to wearing

a mask. It's not challenging. It's not hard. It's there to help your neighbor and your family and those around you.

You would expect them to do the same for you. I'm constantly confounded by that, this element of it.

Doctors, thank you so much. You now may return your phone calls. I appreciate it.

NISSEN: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: Now to Capitol Hill, where the Treasury secretary and the Federal Reserve chairman were in the hot seat today, facing questions from senators over the trillions of dollars that Congress approved for stimulus and economic relief for small businesses and state and local governments, especially hundreds of billions of dollars in loans that are still sitting in the bank.

CNN's congressional correspondent, Phil Mattingly, he's in Washington. He joins us. And CNN business anchor Julia Chatterley is here in New York, joins me as well.

Phil, what's the update on these programs? I mean, the price tags are eye-popping. The speed with which they pushed them through, really amazing. Why is some of the money just still sitting there?

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I think that's actually really good context, Kate, because, if you think about it, these programs at least that haven't really launched yet, $500 billion, that's half-a-trillion dollars.

That's close to the amount of TARP back in 2008, the bailout, which was about $700 billion. It's huge. But there's a reason why it hasn't been deployed yet. And today was actually a pretty good example of why.

You have the Federal Reserve basically moving itself into areas which the Central Bank has never been before, trying to set up these lending facilities to help small and mid-sized businesses, trying to help states and localities as well, all with U.S. taxpayer dollars serving as kind of the baseline for those programs.

And they just haven't gotten it up and running yet. But the Treasury secretary tried to address that with this:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEVEN MNUCHIN, U.S. TREASURY SECRETARY: Of the $500 billion, approximately $50 billion was in direct lending programs from the Treasury and 4450 billion was available for the 13(3) facilities.

I have allocated about half of that. And let me be clear. I am prepared to allocate the rest of that. The only reason I have not allocated it fully is, we are just starting to get these facilities up and running. We want to have a better idea as to which one of the facilities needs more capital.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: And, Kate, I think that's the issue right now.

When the Fed is wandering into uncharted territory before in an effort to stop an unprecedented economic collapse over the course of the last several weeks, there's a lot of trying to kind of feel things out as they go.

And the Treasury secretary making clear all of the money will eventually be deployed. The Fed said that they will have these facilities up and running at some point within the next two weeks. But I note how the hearing was kind of a good example of the dilemma the Fed faces right now.

There's a push and pull here of, they want to get the money out as fast as they possibly can. They want to make the programs as expansive as they can to help the economy. But they also want some restrictions, so companies that shouldn't be getting these loans don't get them, so executives that are perhaps getting large compensation payouts aren't able to take advantage of it as well.

So, you're seeing why this is complicated. You're seeing why this piece of the $2.2 trillion has been slower than some of the others to roll out.

But, again, the expectations are, in the next several weeks, this money should go out the door, a crucial component of those $2 trillion that have been laid out so far.

BOLDUAN: Yes.

And, Julia, how critical is this money for what the economy is going to be looking like in the second half of the year?

JULIA CHATTERLEY, CNN BUSINESS ANCHOR: It's absolutely pivotal, Kate.

I couldn't agree more with Phil in the scale of the challenge that we're facing in terms of the economy and the devastation that's been created here, but also the scale of the challenge in just getting money out to people.

Less than half of the $2.9 trillion that has been agreed here is even in the system and getting out to people and to businesses. Remember that small businesses and medium businesses -- medium-sized businesses represent over 80 percent of employment in the United States.

If you don't get this money out to these businesses, then America can't get back to work. We can't get the millions of people that have been claiming for first-time benefits and beyond back into the system, never mind the health challenges.

[15:15:00] So, we have to find that balance between restricting it. Elizabeth Warren coming in with some criticism today. But if you restrict things too much -- and that's been one of the criticisms of the $600 billion lending program -- you never get the money out there in the first place.

So, these lawmakers are in a really tough position here. This challenge is so much bigger than politics. And that was my big takeaway from today.

BOLDUAN: Yes.

CHATTERLEY: Just get the money out there.

BOLDUAN: Absolutely.

But, again, it always will involve politics. And that's why it then gets complicated even right more.

CHATTERLEY: Phil, Julia, thanks, guys. Really appreciate it.

Coming up for us: While some colleges are already announcing they're going online really only in the fall, the University of Notre Dame announcing that it will bring students back to campus, but with some very big changes. I'm going to talk to Notre Dame's president next.

And, later, the White House releases new guidelines for nursing homes, but do nursing homes have what they need to meet those guidelines? We're going to talk to the CEO of one of the country's largest nursing home chains.

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BOLDUAN: Universities across the country are beginning to announce their plans for the fall semester, and it's clear college is going to look very different this year.

Take the University of Notre Dame announcing it will begin in-person classes two weeks early, cancel fall break in order to end the semester before Thanksgiving, much earlier than usual, all in an effort to protect students, faculty and staff ahead of what many fear could be a second wave of the virus this winter.

Joining me right now is Notre Dame's president, Father John Jenkins.

Father Jenkins, thank you so much for being here.

What brought you to this decision?

REV. JOHN JENKINS, PRESIDENT, UNIVERSITY OF NOTRE DAME: Well, a lot of talking among ourselves, our faculty here, and also with medical experts to find the best way to bring our students back.

We deeply believe in the residential experience here. It is part of the education we provide. It helps our students grow as human beings, mind, body and spirit. And so it's important to us. So we just wanted to find a way that we could do that, and do it in a safe way.

And we feel this is an important step to take.

BOLDUAN: Yes.

And a big part of the plan, as I saw, is, as it was laid out, comprehensive testing. How is that going to work, Father? Do you have the capability to right now test all 12,000-some students, plus then staff?

JENKINS: Not right now. That's why we announced it now, Kate.

We have three months before those students are here. We have to work hard in these three months. So we don't have it now. But we will come August and be ready to go. It's an evolving field. As tests come up, we want a very efficient test, very reliable test.

And so we will look at those, and we will have them when the students are ready to come back.

BOLDUAN: Yes, we know that even that element of efficient and reliable testing is changing day by day, as we are seeing.

I saw on the statement from the school, it also mentions that there are -- will be quarantine and isolation protocols as well. This just struck me as, this is so complicated, what schools need to consider, every aspect of it.

What does that look like for Notre Dame? I mean, are you setting aside dormitories for students if quarantine is needed?

JENKINS: Dormitories are full, so we -- but we have found other facilities just off-campus, very near campus, where we could send students who have tested positive and keep the other students safe.

Obviously, those people who came in close contact, we will have to test them just to keep the whole student body safe, but we think we can do it. It's a big challenge. But we will work hard. And we think we can do it.

BOLDUAN: At this point and in this moment, as you look ahead, do you just assume that you will see COVID cases pop up on campus in the fall?

JENKINS: Yes.

I think it's unrealistic to believe we will be completely free, but we will be as safe as we possibly can. We will address it quickly. Wherever these kids are -- I know 18-to-22-year-old young people. Whether they're on campus or they're away, they're going to congregate, and they're going to put themselves a bit at risk.

So, our challenge is to keep monitoring them, if they do get sick, to make sure they're taken care of. And we feel we can get through this semester and allow them to learn in a safe environment.

BOLDUAN: And point of personal privilege, I grew up about 45 minutes from Notre Dame. What does this mean for football season?

JENKINS: Oh, great question.

And I'm afraid I don't have an answer to that one. Our first priority is the education of our students. But we're working on that. We're talking with other schools. It's still not clear what the football season will look like. I hope it happens, but I just can't say anything definitive right now.

BOLDUAN: And that's understandable. Just had to ask.

JENKINS: Yes.

BOLDUAN: Let's talk about January really quickly.

What is the marker, Father, that you are looking at that you need to see before you bring students back then in January, after you have ended the semester?

JENKINS: Yes.

Well, obviously, everyone's hoping for a vaccine. I mean, that will kind of be in a way the silver bullet, in an effective, reliable, available vaccine.

But we're not going to assume that. And what we -- this is sort of the new normal, Kate. And we have to be able to deal with this in a way where we can educate our students and keep -- make the campus environment safe and healthy.

So, if January looks just like it does now, then we're going to deal with it. We're going to deal with whatever we have to. But you just have to, as you well know, just monitor an evolving situation all the time and adapt as needed.

BOLDUAN: Yes, that's really all -- the only thing you can do.

I mean, you have been president of Notre Dame for 15 years now. Is this the toughest set of decisions that you have faced?

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JENKINS: Well, it's certainly the most complex set of decisions.

It's -- a university is like a massive organization, a battleship, and you're trying to move a battleship. And it is very complicated to do that. There are always painful decisions, difficult decisions, but this is certainly the most complex.

But, in a certain way, I find -- I don't know if you do -- that these hardships bring out the best in people a little bit. There's a little more cooperation, collaboration, a sense of working together.

I see that now. And I think we will have that in the fall. So there's a lot of good in association with the challenges.

BOLDUAN: And a lot of many good years to be had at Notre Dame. Good to see you, Father. Thank you.

JENKINS: Absolutely.

Delight talking to you, Kate. Come and see us sometime.

BOLDUAN: Thank you very much. Appreciate it.

JENKINS: OK.

BOLDUAN: Still ahead for us, we are getting new details in on the virus-stricken aircraft carrier USS Roosevelt. Yes, more news coming in from that stricken aircraft carrier.

Much more after the break.

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