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CDC Sources, White House Decisions Drive By Politics, Not Science; Florida, Georgia Under Scrutiny For Reporting On COVID-19 Cases; Sources Say, Trump Expected To Finish Hydroxychloroquine Soon. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired May 20, 2020 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[10:00:00]

POPPY HARLOW, CNN NEWSROOM: Top of the morning. Good morning, everyone. I'm Poppy Harlow.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN NEWSROOM: And I'm Jim Sciutto.

The country remains in the middle of a pandemic, and current employees at the Centers for Disease Control, which is, of course, responsible for responding to things like this, say that they have been, quote, muzzled by the White House. They tell CNN that politics and not science has been the driving force behind the administration's pandemic response.

The CDC's pushback comes as friction with the White House is playing out in a very public way and as the agency finally releases guidelines on how states can reopen safely.

HARLOW: It is something the White House has been holding back for weeks. And it comes as the U.S. hits an important milestone. Today, all 50 states will now be reopened in one way or another. We're covering all of it this hour.

Let's get to our Nick Valencia, who joins us this morning. Nick, you have been tracking and in touch with folks at the CDC throughout all of this. Talk to us about what these officials are saying is happening.

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, we have been speaking to multiple officials throughout the agency. This is a 73-year-old agency. The gold standard for public health, which has been at the center of every public health crisis since their start, with the exception of this one.

You mentioned that, you know, our sources telling us that the White House is putting politics ahead of science, and that really had to do with why these recommendations were shelved for as long as they were. They were released, as you mentioned, Poppy and Jim, without fanfare. There was no announcement, no one really said anything from the White House, certainly no press conference. There were 60 pages posted on their website. The draft recommendations were 68 pages. I want to just get into a couple of those things here real quick.

Schools and day camps, desks as least six feet apart facing the same direction, lunch in classrooms rather than a cafeteria setting, staggered arrival times for students, cloth masks for staff, daily temperature screenings for everyone.

Also, for restaurants, for those of you wondering, wanting to go out to your favorite restaurant and get a bite to eat, this is what the CDC recommends. Avoid sharing menus and condiments. Prioritize outdoor seating. Use tape or signs to insure people stay six feet apart. Dining in is not recommended for step one.

We have heard these step two, step three phases that have been called by the White House. We still don't know what phase four is. I spoke a little while ago to a senior CDC official saying that they are going to continue to focus on the science while they say those at the White House are focusing on politics.

And just a real quick quote here to wrap this up, guys. We have been muzzled, the CDC official tells us. What's tough is that we would have acted earlier on what we knew and recommended. We would have saved lives and money. Those at the CDC being very frank and clear with us, Jim and Poppy, saying that lives are at stake here, and the White House choosing to focus on politics rather than science.

SCIUTTO: They also make the point that the economic damage, it seems they're saying, could have been lessened with an earlier response. Nick Valencia, thanks very much.

With every state, at least partially reopen now, all 50 of them, questions are emerging about the coronavirus data coming out of two of those states, Florida and Georgia.

HARLOW: Rosa Flores joins us from Miami Beach. Good morning, Rosa. What have you learned?

ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Poppy. There's a lot to unpack here. Let me start with Georgia, because the Georgia Department of Health posted a graph that showed a downward trajectory of some of the counties that were most impacted by the COVID-19 crisis. And there were dates missing, there was a lot of confusion, and that graph was subsequently removed.

What we just got response from the Georgia Department of Health, and they say, quote, while the underlying data used for the graph was correct, the sorting logic used was not correct. The graph was fixed on May 11th.

Now on to Florida, where Rebecca Jones, the scientist that was behind the dashboard, that's the Florida data portal that shows the number of COVID-19 deaths and cases, she was removed from her post on May 5th. And according to Florida Today, a news site, she questioned the state's accessibility and transparency.

Well, since then, Governor Ron DeSantis and the Florida Department of Health have issued a statement that says in part, quote, Rebecca Jones exhibited a repeated course of insubordination during her time with the department, including her unilateral decisions to modify the department's COVID-19 dashboard without input or approval from epidemiological teams or for supervisors.

[10:05:07]

The blatant disrespect for professionals who were working around the clock to provide the important information for the COVID-19 website was harmful to the team.

We should point out that we have reached out repeatedly to Rebecca Jones to get her side of the story and she has responded saying that she is not doing interviews at the moment.

Now, she still has a job, technically, Jim and Poppy. The Florida Department of Health just confirming to us moments ago that she has until Thursday to resign or she will be terminated. Jim and Poppy?

HARLOW: Wow. Rosa, thank you.

SCIUTTO: Well, officials in Los Angeles County are aiming to begin reopening businesses there by the 4th of July. This as the Justice Department has warned California against what it calls religious discrimination while some parts of the states prepare to enter phase two of California's reopening plan today.

HARLOW: All right, so let's go to our Josh Campbell. He joins us from Los Angeles. Why are California's reopening plans attracting attention from the Department of Justice?

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's a good question, Poppy. I mean, it's important to realize that this state is not a monolith, as most large areas with large populations. They're opening in different phases. But one thing the Justice Department is weighing in on is how Governor Gavin Newsom is actually categorizing institutions that are allowed to open versus those that are not.

In a really strongly worded letter from DOJ to California officials, they write that California has not shown why interactions in offices and studios of the entertainment industry and in-person operations facilitate non-essential e-commerce are included on the list as being allowed with social distancing where telework is not practical, while gatherings with social distancing for purposes of religious worship are forbidden regardless of whether remote worship is practical or not, basically saying that they fear that the state is discriminating.

It's also important to note that there have been casing recently here in California where churches have seen exposures of COVID-19. And one recent case in Northern California, one person attended a religious service on Mother's Day. The next day, this person found out they were positive for COVID-19, exposing 180 people.

Now, of course, this comes, again, as this state tries to reopen in different phases. Here in Los Angeles County, we're told this week by officials that they are setting the date for Independence Day, July 4th, as a day that they want to reopen. This is part of phase two, is what the governor calls it. And what does that mean? We'll see retail shops open, we'll see some restaurants, malls that are opening as well with appropriate social distancing. That will be happening here in the Los Angeles area.

I think one key takeaway is that as we cover the story, obviously, there's the Washington, D.C. angle. You have national leaders that are trying to stop the spread of this virus, but we're hearing from local officials that if all politics are local, certainly, all crisis are local as well. They're hearing directly from citizens about the harsh impact that these shutdowns are having and their concern, as hear from officials, is that they're not only concerned about the safety of the public but also the economy and the psychological health of residents as they try to deal with the pandemic, Poppy and Jim.

HARLOW: Yes.

SCIUTTO: Josh Campbell, thanks very much.

Well, that balancing act is something that governors are facing across the country, all 50 of them, really, economic damage versus health.

Joining me now to talk about this and many more questions, Kentucky Governor Andy Beshear. Good morning, Governor. I got a lot of cousins in Kentucky, so it's a particular honor to talk to you this morning.

GOV. ANDY BESHEAR (D-KY): Well, thanks for having me. And just let me start the way I always start here in the Commonwealth. That's by reminding people we're going to get through it and get through it together. Sure, it's a challenge, but we're up for it. And we're going to pass this test of humanity, protect one another, and ultimately, we're going to come out on the other side of this. We just have to have the resiliency and we've got to keep it up, we've got to keep working knowing that COVID-19 is out there.

SCIUTTO: I get it. They're good words, they're important. And trust me, I am wise, we're wise on this broadcast to the difficult choices you and other governors have to make.

I do want to ask though, because Kentucky has seen an increase in cases in the last week. And you've been very careful in how you've conducted reopening in Kentucky. As you know, the recommendations are to have 14 days of consecutive decreases in cases. You haven't seen that. Why not wait for those 14 days before continuing reopening?

BESHEAR: Well, you're right and that there is a balance in all of this between health and the economy. And I am certainly insuring that we protect the health of all Kentuckians.

What you see when you look at the data is a lot of different types of data. For instance, our rate, our positivity rate has gone down and has gone down significantly over the past several weeks.

It's also a challenge just to look day to day with the numbers depending on who and what you're testing. For instance, we are testing every individual in a long-term care facility as well as all of the staff. [10:10:01]

We know there's a much higher positivity rate there, but we report it all together to make sure that we are completely honest and transparent with our data.

But the way we're reopening gives us the type of gradual and safe reopening where we can do it while watching the data at the same time. My goal isn't to be the fastest. It's to be the smartest.

SCIUTTO: Let me ask you this then. We're essentially conducting an experiment, right, here in states and communities across the country to see how much reopening affects the spread of this infection. What is your plan if you see the numbers, cases and deaths increase markedly here? Do you give yourself then the freedom, the flexibility to say, hey, we've got to dial some of this back?

BESHEAR: There is no question that we are always going to put the health and safety of our citizens first. So if we see dramatic increases, then, yes, the way we're doing it, we can pause. We are doing this gradually by adding a few extra activities each week or every couple weeks. It gives us a chance to monitor this in real-time, and to make sure we're protecting those around us.

And while I know you called it an experiment, what I would say is none of us have ever lived through a one in every 100-year worldwide health pandemic before, so we have made the very best decisions we can, and, first, being healthy at home here in Kentucky, and we're making the very best decisions we can on how to reopen.

In Kentucky, we're being guided by our public health officials, and we're trying to make those decisions the best we can, moving forward. But I'm quite honest with the people of my state and that none of us know for sure what our decisions are going to be right or going to be wrong, so we make them gradually and we make them carefully, and we're humble enough to know that it's very possible we make a decision that we've got to pull back.

SCIUTTO: Understood. You talk about following the scientists, following the health experts there in Kentucky. Does it help you in your efforts or hurt you when the president contradicts the scientists and the science and the health experts?

BESHEAR: Well, given that this is a worldwide health pandemic, it's affecting and in fact it's killing some of my people here in Kentucky. I try to stay out of the politics and the back and forth. What I try to do is I try to take what was, we believe, very good reopening instructions under the president's plan for reopening. We have a strong department of health led by a former E.R. doctor who has done a magnificent job for us here in Kentucky, and we make the very best decisions we can, and we are transparent with our people about how and why we're making them.

So in Kentucky, what we have seen is a lot of the divisions we see in D.C. have melted away as we try to come together and to make sure that we're looking out for each other. Remember, it's individual decision of our citizens that impact whether it spreads or whether it doesn't. So I'm more interested in talking to my Kentucky citizens than I am in talking to those arguing this out in D.C.

SCIUTTO: Let's talk about economic needs here. As you know, Senate majority leader, of course, the Kentucky senator, Mitch McConnell, he said, the Senate will wait a couple of weeks to decide on a phase four stimulus bill. A big part of that is question of aid to states like Kentucky. Can Kentucky wait and are you concerned that you will have to start laying off state workers without aid to get through this, as you say, from the federal government?

BESHEAR: Well, the Senate majority leader, Senator McConnell and I have worked together during this pandemic and on most instances have been on the same page. The first round of CARES Act funding is helping us. But every state, every single one, all 50, need and really need immediately another round of CARES funding that helps us directly with our budgetary needs. We as states cannot go bankrupt. That would harm the very people we are supposed to serve. It would harm the citizens of Kentucky.

And this isn't a red state or a blue state issue. Though that seems to be how it's messaged in D.C. This is an every state issue of survival. It's Republican governors like Larry Hogan that are out there leading the charge, but it's all 50 governors and all of our mayors and our county judges that agree that this is absolutely necessary. Otherwise, the economic harm will be longer and it will be more severe, and the next generation will pay for it more than we should.

But just remember, in 2008-2009, we just faced a great recession, not a worldwide health pandemic and a recession. We had that aid then. Surely, we should do it now, and we need to do it quickly.

SCIUTTO: Governor Andy Beshear, thanks very much for taking the time this morning.

BESHEAR: Thank you.

[10:15:00]

HARLOW: Good to hear from him, for sure.

All right, so states -- still to come -- as states, universities and colleges across the country overhaul their schedules for the fall, what does it mean for students in safety and learning? The president of the University of Miami will be with us.

SCIUTTO: Plus, a bipartisan plan to help out states and local communities who say they need, as we just heard from the Kentucky governor, economic relief and soon. We're going to be joined by two senators, a Republican and a Democrat, who are crossing the aisle to find that funding.

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SCIUTTO: This just in to CNN. Sources have told CNN that President Trump is expected to finish taking the antimalarial drug, hydroxychloroquine, in the coming days.

[10:20:03]

This follows the president slamming a V.A. study as, quote, phony, after it showed taking the drug can be deadly. But, of course, that's not the only study that showed it doesn't help treat coronavirus or prevent it.

HARLOW: Exactly, the study is not phony, folks. Take a look for yourself.

Let's talk about other critical issues on this front with Dr. Esther Choo, Emergency Room Physician and Associate Professor of Emergency Medicine at Oregon Health and Science University. It's so nice to have you, Doctor.

Okay. the hydroxychloroquine stuff aside, if we could talk about the CDC guidelines that are so important that are finally out there for the most part, where do people need to look and what do they need to takeaway from them as at least part of every one of the 50 states is now open?

DR. ESTHER CHOO, EMERGENCY ROOM PHYSICIAN: Yes, there's a really interesting backstory here that we will all learn at some point because, as you know, the guidelines were leaked. The CDC, very detailed, specific guidelines, were leaked, at least in part, on April 30th. And we know they were sent to the White House for review.

Then what the White House released, allowed to be released on the CDC website on May 14th, was nothing like that. There was a total absence of details, and actually kind of these cartoonishly vague guidelines that were exactly the same for almost all settings.

And now we see that it seems like the original CDC guidelines had been incorporated into the -- back into these CDC guidelines for reopening. It's a little difficult to find the document in full, although it is on media websites, but it's a game changer. I mean, there's the kind of detail and specificity that we have been waiting for.

It outlines all these gated criteria for reopening, including target percentages of positive cases that we should use when progressing from phase one to phase two to phase three, and then by work environment, whether it's workplaces, childcare facilities, schools, and so forth. Really specific guidelines for what it means to have best practices in terms of disinfection, ventilation, group sizes, flow through the area, social distancing, use of PPE and hand hygiene, things like that.

And so it really gives a standard for business owners and people who run schools, things like that, but also for the public to determine whether -- you know, whether the CDC best practices are in place before they feel comfortable re-engaging with these businesses.

SCIUTTO: I wonder though, Dr. Choo, I mean, these come out after all 50 states, they have already started reopening. Many of them prior to meeting standards like, for instance, 14 straight days of declining cases. What's the good of putting these out now if they're not being paid attention to? What's the expression, closing the barn door after the horse is already out?

CHOO: It is unfortunate. And, I mean, it really seems characteristic of our response for the entire pandemic, doesn't it? I mean, it's getting partially what we need a little bit too late for it to have maximal effect.

But I think from a public health standpoint, we're going to deal with what we have. And so at least we have them now. I mean, clearly, you can look at states where they have moved ahead with reopening ahead of these guidelines, clearly, not meeting these guidelines.

But I think what benefit this will be is at least places that have not reopened yet, so not all states are at the same levels of reopening, can look at these guidelines and make decisions on a rolling basis about whether they really feel ready to move forward. It can also guide some places, individual businesses, for example, can make the decision to pull back a little or at least to try to implement some of these really flushed out guidelines for what their environment should look like.

I think workers are now empowered to say, look, there are standards for what we should be coming back to and what kind of resources we need to be able to get to work safely and to be there all day. Parents actually can take these guidelines to their childcare facilities, to schools, to camps, and say this is what the CDC is saying we need in place. Do we have these things in place? So at least there's the local community and the individual empowerment now with some of these guidelines.

SCIUTTO: Yes, I mean, it's a smart point because a lot of these decisions will be made granularly at that level, schools, universities, colleges, businesses. Dr. Choo, always good to have you on this broadcast.

CHOO: My pleasure. Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Well, colleges and universities across the country are preparing for a fall semester in the midst of this pandemic, worries about a second wave.

[10:25:00]

One university president will join us. His expectations for how it will all look like in the fall, coming up.

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[10:30:00]

HARLOW: Welcome back.

So right now, the hardest hit area in Florida is entering phase one of reopening.

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