Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Studies Find COVID-19 Antibodies Provide Protection Against Infection; Study Finds Vaccine Success In Group Of Monkeys; Former CDC Director: Surroundings Factor Into Whether To Wear Mask; Airline Industries Sees Glimmers Of Hope For Recovery; House Speaker Nancy Pelosi Defends Calling Trump "Morbidly Obese". Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired May 20, 2020 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[12:00:00]

JOHN KING, CNN HOST: The Governor says trends in his state the hardest hit here in the United States moving in the right direction. While the people get cocky and disciplined the Governor says watch out that infection rate could climb again.

Also today potentially encouraging answer the two big coronavirus questions can a vaccine work, and if you recover from COVID-19, are you then immune? New research from Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center suggests the answer to both of those questions just might be yes. Listen to the doctor who oversaw that research with us last hour.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. DAN BAROUCH, DIRECTOR CENTER FOR VACCINE RESEARCH, BETH ISRAEL DEACONESS MEDICAL CENTER: Our studies are in primates and not humans, and therefore, we have to be cautious in how we interpret these data? But nevertheless, these data increase our optimism that the development of a vaccine will be possible.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Take a look here. The national coronavirus picture this hour well over 1.5 million confirmed cases here in the United States, 92,000 Americans have lost their lives. Today there are finally detailed CDC guidelines to help answer reopening questions.

There were tweet some after the Trump White House complained they were too precautious, too cautious still look into the details and envision the new normal. Back to school for example would happen without field trips or most extracurricular activities. Meals would be served in classrooms not in crowded cafeterias.

More now about those promising new results in the vaccine race researchers in Boston having some success in engineering immunity in their latest vaccine the tests being done on a number of primates. Let's discuss now with our Senior Medical Correspondent Elizabeth Cohen. Elizabeth, take us inside this new study. What is promising? And where should we have caution flags?

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: So, John, this is a positive step forward with the researchers in Boston found is that when they gave six different vaccines that are being developed by Johnson & Johnson, the monkeys did what they wanted the monkeys to do.

This is a couple of dozen monkeys. They found that they developed these neutralizing antibodies, antibodies that are capable of disabling the virus. But we just heard Dr. Barouch, the guy who did the research in Boston, say be careful, be careful, be careful. Vaccine experts have a joke - mice lie and monkeys exaggerate. Things work out all the time in monkeys that end up being useless in human beings. So that's super important to remember.

The second part of this study is that when they took these mice who - I'm sorry, these monkeys who had been vaccinated and developed antibodies, they let some time pass and then they exposed them again, a second time to the virus, and they found they didn't get sick, they didn't get infect infected.

So that's good. It means that the antibodies actually meant something. But again, this is monkeys. We're not monkeys.

KING: All right, so let me follow up on that point, then, because every day there's a new study about vaccines, about antibodies, about this, about that. And people watching who are nervous, who want to know the answers. How do we put this in context? Again, you mentioned Dr. Barouch when I talked to him, he was optimistic but cautious. Where's the context here?

COHEN: So, the context here is that we don't know. None of this means anything until we get to the big studies that show that this works in humans. When I think about this kind of data, I remember something my grandmother used to say to me, John, which is, that and a dime will get you a cup of coffee.

In other words, this doesn't necessarily mean anything. The vaccine graveyard is littered with vaccines that got this far and even farther and ended up not working. So, let's take a look at how vaccine research functions on a timeline?

So, first, you go in the lab and you find your vaccine. Then you use animals, like we saw here with these monkeys, to make sure it's safe, that you're not going to kill anyone, and also to make sure that you're getting the antibodies you want to see.

Then you do small-scale human studies with dozens or hundreds to, again, make sure it's safe, and to make sure you're getting the antibodies you're looking for. Then - and this is the big time - is you do large-scale human studies with thousands or even tens of thousands of people.

You vaccinate some. You don't vaccinate others. You let them out into the real world. They live their lives. And you see if there's a difference in how many catch the virus out in the community.

Now, when we look at vaccine candidates that are out there, eight are in clinical trials. Johnson & Johnson is not one of them. They're still in animals. And 110 are in preclinical trials. That's where Johnson & Johnson is. So, you can add that up. We're not going to have 118 vaccines. The vast majority of these will fail.

KING: Vast majority will fail. But we'll try to be optimistic. Elizabeth Cohen--

COHEN: Actually, let me add, John, all of them could fail. It's possible that all of them could fail.

KING: Let's hope not, but Elizabeth Cohen, that context is important so people don't get their hopes up, especially prematurely get their hopes up.

Elizabeth Cohen, thank you. Promising points indeed and again Elizabeth made the key point on primates. Dr. Peter Hotez is a vaccine researcher and Professor and Dean of Tropical Medicine at Baylor College of Medicine, mice lie and monkeys exaggerate, doctor. That was a new one for me from Elizabeth Cohen here, explain what she meant?

DR. PETER HOTEZ, PROFESSOR & DEAN OF TROPICAL MEDICINE, BAYLOR COLLEGE OF MEDICINE: Well, I think there are a few takeaway points. First thing I want to say is these are two really excellent studies in terms of the quality of the studies. These are published in "Science" magazine by Dan Barouch's group at Beth Israel Deaconess and at Harvard Medical School and Ragone Institute and at Harvard and M.I.T.

This is a big team of scientists. This is not easy to do this kind of work with all of the chaos going around with all of the COVID-19 in the Boston area. So I just want to make the point, first, it's a testament to the leadership of that team and also the leadership of Beth Israel Deaconess and Harvard Medical School and the Ragone Institute to make it possible.

[12:05:00]

DR. HOTEZ: That's a village to make that happen, point one. Point two, very interesting studies about the re-infection studies in - the Chinese that shown back in March, that they infected them with COVID- 19 and could not re-infect them. That gave an early indication that maybe experience, infection with the virus could confer protective immunity and prevent you from getting re-infection.

This study seems to confirm that. As Elizabeth points out, humans are not exactly the same as people in this aspect, not human primates don't get a severe a disease as humans do, but at least it gives us an idea that for a lot of people, it's likely that if you're infected with this virus, you recover, you develop antibodies, you will be protected for some time.

The next step was using that information to design a vaccine. And they chose to use a group of DNA vaccines. For me, some of the vaccines were partially protective. Some were better than others. But for me, the most important observance and confirmed some other studies showing there's a particular type of antibody that you'd need to prevent getting infected.

It's called neutralizing antibody. In other words, it's not just making antibody per se, but a special type of antibody, neutralizing antibody. This is a type of antibody that combine the surface of the protein, the "S" protein of the virus and block entry of the virus into the human tissues, and that's important because most of the vaccines that are now going into clinical trials, including ours, hopefully, in the fall, take advantage of that, that use components of the "S" protein.

And it also shows that the amount of this type of neutralizing antibody is paramount. So it's not just having neutralizing antibody. You need a lot of it. And in some ways, this is old-school virology. This is, you know, some of the basic principles of the early virus vaccines for things like polio and influenza and everything else.

And so, it really goes to show you that we now may have a pretty good idea of being able to predict which vaccines will work and which won't. In other words, the vaccines that induce high levels of neutralizing antibody are going to work. Those that don't may not work.

And we can use that to follow our clinical trials. It means we can even use this potentially downstream, not yet, but downstream as a surrogate. So, if we know we're inducing high levels of antibodies, we may have a winner on our hands in terms of this race, or multiple winners.

KING: We certainly hope so, Dr. Peter Hotez. Appreciate your context and very important insight. Best of luck for your work as well as all of you try to learn lessons from each other and try to get us further along the track, if you will, in that race. Dr. Hotez thank you very much.

The Former Director of the CDC is now pushing for a COVID-19 alert system that would grade the current risk level posed by the virus throughout the United States at any given time. Take a peek here. Looks a lot like the days after 9/11, similarly to how we measured the terror threat.

In this case, green would urge Americans to take everyday precautions, whereas red, the highest level, would recommend limiting all contact. Joining us now Dr. Cyrus Shahpar, he is a Former CDC official as well as Director of Resolve to Save Lives, which is the group behind this proposed alert system.

Walk us through - I have two questions, actually. Number one, why do you believe this is necessary? And number two, do you wish it was coming from the government, not from outside folks with government experience who seem to be nudging the government to do more in terms of giving people clarity?

DR. CYRUS SHAHPAR, DIRECTOR, RESOLVE TO SAVE LIVES: Yes, I think there's lots of confusion about the current situation. States are all reopening with different approaches, conflicting messages and guidance, and it's unclear to some, what do I do as an individual? When should I wear a mask? Should we be doing what we're doing in terms of opening and closing?

I think what we wanted to do was avoid the open-and-close concept, when, in fact, it's a gradual, stepwise, data-driven approach that's needed. So we looked around the world at different alert systems and designed a four-level color-coded system for states that really empowers people to protect themselves and families, to hold government accountable, for making progress, and accelerated progress together towards a new normal.

KING: And I want you to listen this is someone who agrees with you, Tom Frieden who you know quite well, Former CDC Director, explaining why he thinks people need these guideposts.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TOM FRIEDEN, FORMER DIRECTOR, CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL: There's a big difference if you're indoors versus outdoors, if you're within six feet or if you're not within six feet, and what the risk alert level of your community is?

And a simple table will give you that information so that in the future, we would hope that for areas that use this, checking your COVID risk level and deciding whether to wear a mask this week would be as routine as deciding whether to bring an umbrella into the office.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: So again, Dr. Shahpar, you're with us. You see Tom Frieden there. Are you going to push this on Governors? Do you think Dr. Redfield, the current CDC Chief, will listen and say let's adopt this?

[12:10:00]

KING: Or do you worry at all that if we're hearing it from formers who lead great organizations right now, don't get me wrong, but people from outside the government, people will say this is not coming from the government, why should I listen?

SHAHPAR: Yes, I think what we put out is consistent with what the CDC and White House have released, but it's just more specific. It's really operationalizing the guidance into an understandable way and also a digestible way so that people in the community know where we are now?

What that means for individual actions, for businesses, and then where we need to get to and what that will mean so just aligning everything putting it all on the same page and really being able to communicate that in a simple way with transparency and accountability.

KING: This is my interpretation, but when I watch the work of many who have held these positions, trying now to encourage more guidelines, more transparency, something simple like this color code to help people get through it, is that there seems to be a sense in that community that the government, the CDC would normally be that agency. Does it not want to do this? Do you think it does not have the authority from the Trump White House to do this?

SHAHPAR: I think they just released guidance over the weekend, but as I said, that better aligns with ours. I think you know this is - there are a lot of complicating factors new science around COVID, so they're doing the best they can. We just have the opportunity to take what a lot of countries have seen as the best practice, put it into an easily understood packet of information and also work with others.

We work with a great group at covidexitstrategy.org to put the actual indicators that are available right now - what is the situation in the 50 states? Make it available on a website and just make it easy for this process to communicate clearly with the public to happen.

KING: And so, tell me how you plan on - you put this out. I find it very helpful when you look through it. It's easy to understand as you go through it. And so, you just hope people catch onto it? Do you hope that Governors start holding it up when they're having their daily briefings?

SHAHPAR: Yes, I think we hope that Governors look at it, that groups like the National Governors Association look at it, see where they are now, see what we have, see where they might match up, what might be missing, what some discrepancies might be, and really improve systems?

We need to work together to move forward. It's a rapidly evolving pandemic. And how do we continually improve systems and then make sure we're all aligned toward getting toward that new normal.

KING: Let me ask you lastly, I'm looking at it from a general standpoint. We've had a lot of discussion in recent days including in your state about is it safe to go back to school, whether it's a college conversation or elementary, high school, middle school conversation? What from here would help a parent decide, what should I do come August-September, when we're having the school conversation?

SHAHPAR: Sure. I think what we do is show that there's important pieces of information. What is the disease situation? Is it getting better? Is it getting worse? Is it the same? What's the health care system capacity to take care of people when they're severely ill? For instance, children, if that happens to be the case in a particular state or a jurisdiction.

And then what is the disease control capability in a particular area? Can they isolate cases? Can they contact trace, these kinds of things? So getting a better understanding of what the situation is in your particular area and then, of course, as I said, incorporating the latest science.

The school issue is complex. We know there's been some severe illness in children recently, and we need to continue to monitor that. And then update this guidance appropriately.

KING: Dr. Shahpar, once again thank you so much for your expertise and insights. Really appreciate it.

SHAHPAR: Thank you.

KING: Thank you, sir. Some terrible news right in the middle of these pandemic thousands in Michigan suddenly forced from their homes after two dams failed. This video was taken this morning, Midland County, Michigan. Look at the high waters there. Governor Gretchen Whitmer says the flooding is unlike anything the area has ever seen.

She estimates the city could be under 9 feet of water once the river crests. Wow. We'll keep an eye on that story as we go forward. Up next for us, after billions of dollars in losses, the airlines are finally starting to report some encouraging news.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:15:00]

KING: At least some glimpse of hope today for an airline industry that's been devastated by the coronavirus pandemic. There are now more bookings than cancellations, and some flights are actually being added. CNN's Richard Quest has more for us. Richard, catastrophic predictions, devastation across the industry what are the signs of, perhaps, progress?

RICHARD QUEST, CNN BUSINESS EDITOR-AT-LARGE: They are few and far between, but they are there. And if you bear in mind that at its lowest point, the airlines were carrying just a handful of passengers, and the root network had been cut by 90 percent - 95 percent. John, to be blunt, we'll take anything at the moment as a sign of improvement.

The first thing that's happened is IATA, which is the main aviation industry, has put in place a range of standards. The big fear had been that everybody was going to do their own thing and nobody would know really. So, now they've said this is how they're going to move forward.

It might seem somewhat obvious, but this is the business, John, of making people have safety, trust, and care, make people feel and realize that they will be safe. And now let's get to the hard numbers. Well, if you start, for example, with southwest, southwest now says that they're seeing more bookings versus cancellations.

It's still only going to sell a handful of seats and then Delta is adding approximately 100 flights a day through June. That was a big deal. That's a really big deal, because Delta, vast network with huge hubs in different places like Atlanta, New York, and the west. So that's significant.

And United Airlines, John, cancellations are falling. The capacity will be increased, but John, it's still - by the time you get to the summer, they're saying the network will still only be 75 percent less than what it was.

[12:20:00]

QUEST: So, as you can see, there's an enormously long way to go.

KING: Up off the mat, but hardly anywhere close to where--

QUEST: Yes, not quite. KING: --where we were not that long ago. Richard Quest, good to see

you. Appreciate that important update. We'll take anything as long as we get through it. And don't forget for the latest stock market news and strategy for your portfolio check out "Markets Now" streaming live 12:45 pm eastern only at CNN Business.

Up next for us, President Trump threatens to withhold federal money to Nevada and Michigan because he's unhappy with voting practices.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:25:00]

KING: House Speaker Nancy Pelosi today returning fire, you might say, in what seems to now be a daily war of words with the President of the United States in the middle of the coronavirus pandemic. She called him morbidly obese and said he shouldn't be taking the drug Hydroxychloroquine. He responded by calling her sick. She responded this way today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): I gave him a dose of his own medicine. He's called women one thing or another over time, and I thought, he thinks that passes off as humor in certain cultures, and I thought that was what that was, and I was only quoting what doctors had said about him, so I was being factual in a very sympathetic way.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Joining us now is "Times'" Molly Mall, she is a CNN Political Analyst she is also the Author of a great new book titled "Pelosi." Molly good to see you. Get to the root of this. This one is about Hydroxychloroquine and the back-and-forth and name-calling, but it's about something much bigger that you talk about in the book in great detail. These two have a thing for each other.

MOLLY BALL, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, and she's always sort of had his number. She's always been able to get under his skin, a lot more so than I think a lot of other people in politics. He is frequently in the past expressed a sort of grudging respect for her toughness.

And despite her sort of pretense of always wanting to take the high road, she's capable of counterpunching in the same way that he does at times, and that's what she says she was doing there, and you could see by the President's response that it got him a little bit riled up.

KING: Sure it did. Let me play some of the exchange. This is on Anderson Cooper "Monday Night", she was asked about the President taking Hydroxychloroquine and here's her answer and then his response.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PELOSI: I would rather he not be taking something that has not been approved by the scientists, especially in his age group and in his, shall we say weight group, what is morbidly obese. DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I don't respond to her.

I think she's a waste of time. Pelosi is a sick woman. She's get a lot of problems, a lot of mental problems.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: I mean there's a lot to that in the sense that, as you noted, she often says she's trying to be focused on policy, you know - sorry, BS - at times she gets quite personal because she's trying to provoke him. And then him, sick, women. We know what happened to the Republicans in 2018 among women especially in suburban America. So, both of them are getting into politics here in a pretty deep and personal way.

BALL: Yes, I think that's right. And you can tell. You know, I think we've seen Speaker Pelosi be very visible during this crisis. I see her, you know, on TV doing interviews a lot more than I think is normal.

And I think that's because she feels like the Democrats need a voice in this debate, and if not for her, there are not a lot of people really well positioned to be a counterpoint to the President and the administration and the Republicans in Congress, especially at a time when people are either homebound or working in a dangerous manner and paying very close attention to this one story that is dominating everything.

So you know the point she's trying to make is that she's got to have a voice in this debate. But the name-calling certainly helps draw attention to it.

KING: In your book, which covers the depth and the scope of Pelosi but also gets into the Trump relationship - and I highly recommend it to anyone - you talk about her - you interviewed her as she came away from one of her encounters with the President. Returning to the Capitol, she marveled at the President's wall fixation.

It's like a manhood thing for him, she told her colleagues. She had tried she said to avoid stooping to his level, which she colorfully described as a tinkle contest with a skunk. Instead, she said, I was trying to be the mom.

Describe what you learned in doing the work for the book on how she views this President? She's worked with Democrats. She's worked with Republicans. She's been in town a long time. I watched her in the Bush Administration working with a Republican President, fighting a lot with the Republican President, but nothing like this.

BALL: That's right. And I think what you can see is that she does express almost like a mother's exasperation when she talks about Trump. And you saw, you know, the President saying, well, I don't have time to waste time on her, but then he did circle back around her. He sort of couldn't resist.

And she is able, I think, to sort of let it slide off of her, whether it's because she has so much practice being insulted and disparaged and attacked, or just because she has an inner confidence and it really doesn't bother her when people call her names.

So, you know, that was what she said back in 2018 when she had that meeting with the President where she walked out in the red coat. It's the image on the front cover of my book. And I think that kind of set the tone for a lot of the relationship that they've had since she became Speaker again in 2019.