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Cuomo Prime Time

President Trump Claim to Have Voter Fraud in Mail-in Voting; Gov. Gretchen Whitmer (D-MI) Was Interviewed About What President Trump Told Her During Their Meeting Yesterday; Coronavirus Pandemic; Coronavirus Testing Is A Mess In The United States, Expert Says; Laura Coates On New Arrest In Ahmaud Arbery Shooting Death; Pint-Sized Ameri-can Bringing Cheer To Other Kids. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired May 21, 2020 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[22:00:00]

MELANIA TRUMP, FIRST LADY OF THE UNITED STATES: Practice your favorite sport or learn a new one and help out at home.

Be sure to stay in touch with friends and family and make sure you're being your best self. These are important and healthy habits that we can all easily practice. And they are a reminder that we will only get through this with patience, compassion, and care.

Tonight, please know that the president and I are with you during these challenging times, and we continue to do everything we can to support you. God bless you all, and God bless the United States of America.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Lovely and so important. And as the first lady just mentioned, you know, these are challenging times. A lot of our viewers are asking about how they can help others, how they can find help themselves.

You can find out how by going to cnn.com/coronavirus. You can find out there how to help. There's even categories to search for where you want to contribute in addition to resources for self-help. Go also to cnn.com/impact.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Sanjay, thank you. I want to thank First Lady Melania Trump, Dr. Anthony Fauci, Fr. John Jenkins, an all of the educators who joined us tonight. Also, thanks to those of you who wrote in with your questions. To everyone who joined us tonight if you didn't get you answered the conversation continues at cnn.com/coronavirusanswers. The news continues right now with Chris Cuomo.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: All right. Thank you, Anderson. I'm Chris Cuomo, and welcome to Prime Time.

Trump does not want to be seen with a mask even in a place that it's required and all the other competent executives have one on while he doesn't. Do you really have to wonder why? It's just like with testing which is why there's no real national plan. It's just like with his fugazzi attacks on voting by mail, lying again about voter fraud. It is all part of the same effort to help himself no matter the risks

to your rights or your health.

We have the governor of Michigan tonight. That's where Trump was, a state that the president is threatening to defund for trying to keep voters safe in a pandemic. She had a huge win in court today and some strong words for the president.

And big news, another major development in the Arbery case in Georgia, a new arrest, someone we had on this program just last week. Wasn't allowed to talk too much, but now he has a lot to answer for. What do you say? Let's get after it.

Again, tonight you only need one piece of sound to tell the story.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, I did wear -- I had one on before. I wore one in this back area. But I didn't want to give the press the pleasure of seeing it. Here's my mask right now and I liked it very much.

I actually, honestly, I think I look better in the mask. I really did. I look better in the mask.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: If he thought that, he would never take it off. Look, this isn't about the press. This is about you. It's about the country. You need to see the first example by this president showing the rest of us he's trying to keep someone safe besides himself.

Let's bring in Kaitlan Collins at the White House for us tonight. Great example of the president stepping on his own good headline. This was supposed to be about Ford and making ventilators and showing how America, how far we've come in that regard and how fast. Instead, he got caught up with the mask stuff and some other side issues.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, and Chris, people inside the White House feel that actually the ventilator issue is one of their strongest performances so far throughout the whole coronavirus response, making sure that people could get ventilators, ramping up that production.

But that is of course not the headline coming out of the president's visit to that Ford plant in Michigan today. It's that he had a mask on him but said he just didn't want to wear it because of the optics. He made clear it wasn't a health thing or anything like that. He just didn't want to be seen in front of the cameras wearing a mask, even had one on him.

And the reasoning from the White House as to why he hasn't been wearing one is that he's tested daily, something that he reminded reporters about as he was leaving the White House today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: I tested very positively in another sense. So, this morning --

yes. I tested positively towards negative. No, I tested perfectly this morning, meaning, meaning I tested negative.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: He doesn't even like the word. Everything about COVID scares him in terms of it being a negative impact on his own election hopes. And it's in every piece of his messaging that I hear.

COLLINS: Yes, and the thing is we know he's concerned about coronavirus himself personally getting it because after his valet tested positive, that's when he started taking that hydroxychloroquine, that unproven drug for treating or preventing coronavirus.

[22:05:02]

So, we know he's concerned about getting it. He is taking precautions in his mind like that that he thinks will work but he does not want to do things like wear a mask.

CUOMO: Well, he doesn't -- he doesn't want to wear the mask. He doesn't like the messaging. But in the White House the people around him as you heard, are getting tested, they're doing tracing, and they're wearing masks.

Now, this was an interesting visit to Michigan because of what he had been saying about voting by mail. He met with the governor today. We'll have her on right after you. But what was the spin on how he feels about the issue while he was in the state?

COLLINS: Well, it's really interesting because he did speak with Governor Whitmer two days in a row. And yesterday, when he were in the cabinet room with him, he seemed to back off his threat to pull funding from Michigan if they continued mailing out these applications for a mail-in ballot to people to registered voters.

He said I don't think that will be necessary. But when he was asked about that today, he said he didn't say that. And he still hasn't specified which funding it is that he's threaten to withhold. Of course, officials in that state are, Chris, are obviously concerned about that given that they are having a more severe outbreak than you're seeing in a lot of other places.

But the president is pushing ahead, claiming without any evidence that he believes there is massive fraud when it comes to mail-in voting even though he's only going after these Democratic states. And several other Republican secretaries of state have made similar moves because people are concerned about going to vote during a pandemic. And they don't always happen until November to worry about this.

There are a lot of primaries happening over the summer that they've got to be concerned about. But the president continued pushing that even when he was in Michigan today in the face of officials who pushed back and said that the president was inaccurate in the claims that he was making.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Voting by mail is wrought with fraud and abuse. If you're president of the United States and if you vote in Florida and you can't be there, you should be able to send in a ballot. If you're not well, you're feeling terrible, you're sick, you have a reasonable excuse, just a reasonable excuse, you should be able to vote by mail in.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: What do the people in the White House offer up as proof of the president's claim?

COLLINS: None so far. At the briefing the other day we asked the press secretary about this. She just referred us to the campaign when he asked, you know, not only is he saying that there is massive fraud. He said Michigan is doing something illegal here and they have not pointed to what exactly it is that the president believes that's illegal that's happening in Michigan by them sending out these applications to get ballots. Not even actual ballots. They're just sending out the applications.

But Chris, I will tell you several of the president's political aides and his allies on the outside realize that this is a headache. They want to win Michigan obviously in November and they do not think the president making these claims is going to be helpful to them.

And so, that's something else that they're going to have to square, you know, what the president wants, what he wants to hear, and their tactic of trying to win that state.

CUOMO: Pro tip, when you want to win a state and a big part of it is underwater and 10,000 people have to be displaced, you should visit.

Kaitlan Collins, thank you very much for taking us through the day's events. I appreciate it.

Now, as Kaitlan and I were talking the president went to Michigan just today after threatening to withhold money to that state over these conspiracies about mail-in voting. So, what did he say to the governor's face? Governor Gretchen Whitmer, next.

[22:10:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CUOMO: This president went to Michigan to show off America's ventilator capacity, but instead he made it about not wearing a mask and made-up notions about voter fraud. This is a perfect example of Trump ruining his own good headline. And there are plenty of serious issues in the state of Michigan to discuss.

So, let's get after that with Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer. Governor Whitmer, thank you for joining us on Prime Time. GOV. GRETCHEN WHITMER (D-MI): Glad to be with you.

CUOMO: First, item of urgency in your state, obviously, the flooding. FEMA approved federal assistance. What is the latest, and what does that assistance mean for the people who lost their homes?

WHITMER: Well, let me just start with this. You know, in the midst of a global pandemic we were given short notice that we had to evacuate 10,000 people. We did so without a casualty. It's really a testament to the kind of grit that people have and doing so trying to observe social distancing and mask wearing.

I mean, it was really incredible to see this community come together. We're still very concerned about a couple of other dams and the incredible pressure that we have because of all this precipitation that we've had. But we know that this was a historic event. We are going to take -- it's going to take a while to get back from it, but we're grateful that we got the declaration declared so quickly.

I'm meeting with FEMA tomorrow. We're going to continue talking about the extent of this damage so we can get people the help they need.

CUOMO: And so far, -- it's early and you don't want to have false optimism here, but no fatalities reported. Is that still true?

WHITMER: At this point, that is still true and it really is pretty remarkable. I was there talking with people yesterday, and this community's really come together, it has shown the best in people in the toughest circumstances. And I think when you see footage of people in Michigan you tend to see the protestors at the capital but this is the real story of what's happening, our people rising to this challenge and helping one another out. And it really was inspirational to see it.

CUOMO: Speaking of inspiration, the man in part inspiring those protests, the president of the United States, there today. Is it really true that he didn't accept an invitation to tour the flooding? Or was it about scheduling? It's just hard to believe when infrastructure is supposed to be so important to him?

WHITMER: You know what, I'm not sure. I talked to him for about five minutes yesterday. He asked about midland. I told him a bit about what I saw as I had a chance to survey the damage. He said maybe if I come back sometime maybe you might meet with me up there. And I said, sure.

But today he was at Ford and I did not have a meeting with him, so I'm not quite sure to speak to what the intention was with regard to why there wasn't a trip today.

[22:15:00]

CUOMO: OK. Another big development in Michigan, something akin to what happened in Wisconsin. You go to the legislature, you say, listen, we have to extend the stay-at-home order. They say no. You say I'll do it myself. You cite somewhat arcane executive authority. The Republicans say

we're going to sue you. You're overreaching. You're no queen or king or whatever you want to call it. You go to court. Unlike Wisconsin, you won. Are you

surprised and what was the rationale by the court?

WHITMER: Well, you know, Michigan law and Wisconsin law were different. We have different sources of authority. I am grateful for the victory that we had in court today. I know that every decision I've made -- and you know what, I'm sure Tony Evers, every decision he made --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: The governor of Wisconsin.

WHITMER: -- was based on the best epidemiology, the public health expertise, and the needs of our people. You know, we're all doing everything we can to save lives. Whether you are in New York, Wisconsin, or Michigan or somewhere else, I know that governors are acting because we need to, because there's not been a national strategy, and it's on us to do everything we can to protect people.

And I cited every ounce of authority in various places that I have as governor of Michigan and I was grateful for the victory today in court.

CUOMO: What does the victory mean for you going forward?

WHITMER: Well, it means that we can stay focused on the epidemiology and the public health expertise as we continue to turn the dial and reengage sectors of our economy. We've got to be really smart. We've got to do this incrementally. We have to follow the data. We have to keep ramping up testing so that we avoid a second wave.

COVID-19 has been devastating here in Michigan. We know that because even though we're the 10th largest state by population, for a long time, we were the third highest number of deaths. We still have the fourth highest number of deaths in the country. And that's why we have to take aggressive steps to save lives. What we have done has worked but we are not out of the woods yet.

CUOMO: Obviously, having the president there, he made an issue out of whether or not he would wear a mask. He played the media on that today. He says I'm not going to give you the satisfaction of seeing me in a mask, but I did wear one. What is your take on the politics of his mask reluctance?

WHITMER: I'm not sure what to make of it, but what I can tell you is that we just got the big three back to work this week. And they've got strict protocols to keep their work force safe.

The Ford executives were all wearing masks. Every one of the workers in the facility are wearing masks. This is a place that it's really important to get it right and so that the workers can have confidence that they're safe. This is a city, a metropolitan area, that has been hit hard by COVID-

19. And that's why it's so important that everyone takes this seriously. And I would appreciate it if everyone with a platform lived the values. We're trying to get everyone else to follow because it's really important that we are following the science, we're protecting ourselves, and we should all be wearing masks. Let's be very clear.

CUOMO: Can you think of any good reason that the president doesn't wear a mask?

WHITMER: You know what? I'm wearing masks every time that I'm in public. I went and got a COVID-19 test today not because I'm sick or been around anyone who's sick, but I want people to know it's an easy thing to do.

We should all be getting tested. The more people that get tested the better. The more people that are wearing masks, the better. This is about all of us. And everyone with a platform and a responsibility and a position of influence should be doing precisely that.

CUOMO: How effective do you think the president's non too subtle message in my opinion, that you guys are faking it, especially the Democrats. You're faking it. You're making COVID more serious than it is. You're keeping people home longer than you need to because you love the power and you love to suppress freedom and you think it's going to hurt him in the election. How effective is that messaging in your state?

WHITMER: When you look at how people are reacting to the stay-home orders, I know we focus on the few that go to the capital and make outrageous statements. But the fact of the matter is the vast majority of people in my state are taking this seriously. That's how we've pushed this curve down and saved thousands of lives.

The vast majority of people when polled will say we think we should take a slow, incremental phases back to normalcy, that we need to be wearing masks. People get it. They're not stupid. They understand the science. They understand how highly communicable this is and how dangerous it is.

So, I think that all of this political rhetoric isn't changing peoples' minds. In fact, it's only confusing folks and I think making it more dangerous. And that's why I wish it would stop because we've got to focus on the science. This is a public health crisis, not a political problem that we have. We've got to get it right.

[22:19:57]

CUOMO: Quickly, why don't you see the mail-in balloting or absentee balloting the way the president does which is that it's too risky. It's too much fraud, it's improper, and if you don't get it, he may have to pull funds from you. Are you worried about that and why don't you see it the way he does?

WHITMER: You know, this is happening in Republican-led states and Democratic-led states. The president himself has voted this way. All the secretary of state in Michigan did yesterday was saying we're

going to mail everyone an application to get a ballot. That's all she said. That is expected by the Michigan Constitution and the people of Michigan, it's how we keep people safe and give them the ability to participate in their democracy. Everyone should be demanding that.

CUOMO: OK. Are you worried about him pulling funds?

WHITMER: You know, I'm concerned every time I see those veiled threats or maybe they're not veiled threats. It is concerned, of course. I don't believe that the ability to do that really exists.

And I'm going to continue to forge ahead and do everything we know to be the right thing to do, and, you know, work to make sure that Michigan doesn't lose any of these dollars. We are hurting. We're hurting because of COVID-19. We're hurting because we've had this unprecedented flooding event.

We need, as Americans, to all demand that we get the support by virtue of being Americans. It shouldn't matter who your governor is. It shouldn't matter about relationships. We should all be entitled to knowing that our federal government is going to protect us, is going to help us in our time of need, and that is right now.

CUOMO: Michigan is certainly become a metaphor for the country in terms of seeing how hard COVID can hit, how people respond, what they tolerate, and what it means heading into November. Governor, the best to you and your family for your health and your effectiveness.

WHITMER: Thank you, Chris.

CUOMO: So, states are opening up. They're doing it in different ways. Is there already proof of the impact on COVID cases? We only know what we can show. Let's see what the facts show, next.

[22:25:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CUOMO: We keep saying that reopening is a must, but how we do it means everything. It could mean the difference between a blip, as Dr. Fauci calls it, and a resurgence.

So, let's have Nick Watt take a look tonight at what we could see in the days and weeks to come.

NICK WATT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Cities like Houston and Miami should brace for a COVID come back according to new monitoring that monitors how well we're social distancing as we reopen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID RUBIN, DIRECTOR OF POLICYLAB, CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL OF PHILADELPHIA: The degree to which some areas that move too quickly or have not been vigilant with regards to individual behavior, we are starting to see evidence of resurgence. (END VIDEO CLIP)

WATT: Largely in the south they say, hospitals in Montgomery, Alabama reporting they're nearly out of ICU beds.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR STEVEN REED (D-AL), MONTGOMERY: The number of COVID patients that they were seeing was not only increasing but that people were coming in worse state. I think it's in part due to the fact that we opened up the economy too soon.

RUBIN: But we're also seeing some optimism in other areas that appear to be moving more cautiously.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WATT: That early hot spot King County, Washington opening slowly and the new case count is still falling.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: Now is not the time to tempt fate and pull back completely.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WATT: Right now, there's a spike in South America as cooler weather and winter nears. And then when the summer is over, I suspect it will reground itself in the north, CDC Director Robert Redfield just told the Financial Times, says he can't guarantee there won't be another lockdown this winter.

And on the information needed to contain this virus he says the truth is regularly the data is delayed and it's incomplete. At least four states say they are combining viral and antibody test results for their case counts, potentially muddying the picture of where and how this virus is spreading.

Those food bank lines tell a different story, the impact of lockdown. Nearly half of adult Americans are now living in a household that has lost income according to a census bureau survey. And 10 percent reported often or some of the time not having enough food.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's going to point out the pews and the confessional.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WATT: Religious services are back in New York. Catholic leaders laid out their plan. Sanitizer at the door and online worships are still encouraged.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NICHOLAS DIMARZIO, BISHOP, DIOCESE OF BROOKLYN: So, we will move slowly but surely to get to maximum participation as quick as we can.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WATT: What happens next is largely up to all of us individually.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. ANDREW CUOMO (D-NY): And if people take the right precautions, you don't necessarily need to see a rise in the number of cases.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WATT: Nick Watt, CNN, Los Angeles.

CUOMO: Thanks to Nick Watt for that. So, testing, testing, testing. Well, testing is a mess right now according to one of our nation's top infectious disease intellects. Why? Because this next theory is going to be not about how many we test but who we test and how.

So, who should be tested? How often? Is a COVID test what we want or an antibody test? Is that better? Why does testing or tracing even matter so much? The man on the side of the screen with the brains has the answers, next.

[22:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CUOMO: Scientists at University of Minnesota Center for Infectious Disease, they say, research and policy experts are testing as many people as possible, not the best way to reopen safely. Instead they're promoting what they call a smart testing model. What is that? Michael Osterholm leads the center. It's good to have you.

DR. MICHAEL OSTERHOLM, DIRECTOR, CENTER FOR INFECTIOUS DISEASE RESEARCH AND POLICY: Thank you very much. Good to be with you.

CUOMO: So, common sense is more testing, more better. No, you say. Why?

OSTERHOLM: Well, it's just like if your investment. Do you take all your money and just put as much as you can in investment and realize that that's not going to give you the great rate of return. If you really want to get the most out of testing and test the right people at the right time with the right test with the right result and do the right thing about it. And we have many examples just recently where we've seen testing has actually cause us more problems than it helped us.

CUOMO: So, how do you know what the answers to those questions are, just limiting them to the obvious ones who to test, how often?

OSTERHOLM: Well, for example, if you really want to know where the disease is in the community, do what Willy Sutton once told us. Rob banks because that's where the money is. Basically you look for sick people. Anybody who has signs or symptoms or potentially COVID related, will help you uncover new hotspots and it will give you an idea of exactly what's happening in your community. So, test them first. Make sure they get tested.

Second of all you want to test health care workers and first responders who are around people if they have even the mildest symptoms because you don't want them transmitting to patients. So, I could go through the list like that and say if you can check off the first one, the second one, the third one, and keep going down the list.

[22:35:10]

But don't just tell everybody to go out and get tested. The other thing I think that's important here is some of this testing can actually be harmful. And I say that, look no further than what happened at the White House just a couple of weeks ago.

I wrote about this in The New York Times a month ago. Why were they using a test where up to half the people who are infected might not be picked up and yet they were using that to bubble the White House to protect it. That was the wrong test for that location. And so, it's things like that we need to address where we can be smarter, get better data, have more effectiveness, and actually do the kind of testing that we really need to do.

CUOMO: Two follows. One, what if you're asymptomatic and all those people. Do you just not test them?

OSTERHOLM: No, I didn't say don't test those, but again, let's go where the money is. You know, if I have an uncle who loses a $10 bill in the middle of an Iowa cornfield, I could sure spend all day looking for it or go to a bank and rob it. Which more where am I going to get the best return?

So, again, if you want to even know where asymptomatic people are at, you're going to find out that there are a lot more people around them that are symptomatic. That can give you a clue then.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: How do you find out if they're asymptomatic?

OSTERHOLM: That's where we need to have an active program encouraging people who have these following signs and symptoms, you've got to make it really easy for them to get tested and you've got to be able to get the results back to them.

Do you know how many this drive-in programs we have right now where people feel like they're getting access, but because they don't get complete information, we have many results that are sitting on computers or on covered shelves that never got back to the person who got tested, because they didn't have enough identifying information. That's part of the system. Make sure that we can get those results

back, that we can actually do something about them whether it's helping that individual isolate, whether it's contact tracing, whatever. That's part of a smart system.

CUOMO: I thought that the problem with the tests at the White House was using was it just wasn't accurate, the Abbott lab test. You said it wasn't the right one for that location. Where would it have worked better?

OSTERHOLM: Well, in that case, what I'm saying is it wasn't the right one because if you actually follow through on the recommendations for that test, if you test negative, you're still supposed to get a PCR test. So, you know, what it does, it gives you if somebody is positive, but it doesn't give you the information if you're actually negative which in that case we needed to bubble that location.

Now, in a clinical setting you may say, well, if you're back in the community this would be a test that might work if it works 80 percent of the time to at least get those people identified. But let me give you another example. Right now with the antibody tests that everybody is promoting, suggesting we use that to figure out who can go back to work, if you were to apply that test across the state of Minnesota or most the states in this country right now, half of all of the test results that turn back positive would be false positives.

So, here I'm trying to tell a nurse basically I don't know what this means because I'm not sure if you're immune or not, but anyway it doesn't really matter because half the time you're not really positive after all. So, again, we shouldn't be using those kinds of tests in that kind of setting. And this is what we haven't talked about. This is what we haven't done to be smart about our testing.

CUOMO: So, let's take one more step on that though because that's going to be real confusing for people.

OSTERHOLM: Sure.

CUOMO: Because, you know, to lay people, either a test is accurate or it isn't. But it's not as simple here because context matters. 50 percent wrong rate with an antibody test, it seems like the test stinks. How can a test have a 50 percent wrong rate and still be useful?

OSTERHOLM: That's a screening test phenomena that occurs with every test we have in medicine. If you have a very low prevalence, 5 percent of the population being positive, that's how that test works, because it's not an on or off switch. It's not like a light switch, it's a (inaudible). So, we have that middle ground where in order to pick up all the positives we pick up a bunch of negatives too or the vice versa in order to pick up all the negatives, we also pick up positives.

And so one of the challenges we have is in fact how to use these tests. This is why we're talking about smart testing because under certain circumstances, these antibody tests can be really helpful. For example, in New York, if we want to know what the background rate of infection has been, if I apply that test, the systematic air is there meaning it's built in.

But if I use that same test with the same lab and I do it two months from now and I do it four months from now and I do it six months from now, if I see the levels go from 15 percent to 20 percent to 30 percent it's a relative term and I know I've got something going on. So, it is understanding how these tests work.

Finally, the other thing that we kept emphasizing is, if this is not just about the test. We've heard about the reagent problems. You've heard about the swab problems. You also know that right now we've been running the test machines in this country 24/7 in a way that they were never intended and we're now starting to see the machines break down.

We're starting to see problems with parts that come from Asia or Europe to fix them. And again, we never anticipated that kind of testing load. So, it's all part of a system that we have to have in place in order to get the best results in. I want to emphasize testing is really important, but we've got to do it smart.

[22:40:13]

CUOMO: And that's why you called for a centralized plan on this through the federal government through HHS. Yes, the states have a lot of responsibility here, but you can't have everybody doing it differently. Everywhere that's done this successfully has done it through a central planning system except America hasn't done that yet. That's why Michael, -- go ahead, Michael.

OSTERHOLM: That's exactly right. No, I was just going to say, you're exactly right. You summed it up very well. That's exactly what we need.

CUOMO: Well, I've been listening to you for five, six minutes. Of course I was going to learn something. Thank you very much for putting this on all of us.

OSTERHOLM: Thank you.

CUOMO: Look, people know it's not simple. They just have to be taken through why it matters and when it matters. And they're getting so many mixed messages. So, Michael, thank you so much and everybody working at the University of Minnesota.

All right. There is breaking news tonight in the Arbery murder investigation in Georgia. The man behind the key piece of evidence, the video of the killing, is now under arrest himself. You saw him on this show last week. You didn't get to hear from him much because his lawyer wanted to do all the talking. What kind of case would prosecutors build against William Roddie Bryan? Former federal prosecutor, Laura Coates, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:45:00] CUOMO: A lot of you are going to say I'm not surprised, but the man

behind the video capturing the shooting death of Ahmaud Arbery in Georgia is under arrest tonight. His name is William Roddie Bryan. He faces a felony murder charge along with attempt to commit false imprisonment. Not that -- I'll give you a head start on this, that's going to be about what was in the police report from the McMichael's describing what Roddie Bryan tried to do. All right. Mr. Bryan's lawyer told us last week his client was innocent.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: Mr. Gough. Do you think that your client should be understood as part of the altercation that day?

KEVIN GOUGH, ATTORNEY FOR WILLIAM BRYAN: No, sir, no, sir, not at all.

CUOMO: Because?

GOUGH: Because my client -- my client has done nothing wrong here. He's committed no crime.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: If you remember, you know, he didn't want his client to talk. And when challenged about why can't Roddie just speak for himself, this was his own lawyer's defense.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOUGH: My client is a mechanic with a high school education, and if you've ever been to the high schools around here, that's not necessarily saying much, OK? And I don't mind if the board of education doesn't like it. You know, I'm not there for them either. OK. But you can't be asking him questions about the substance of the evidence.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: Yeah, you can. And so did the GBI. Mechanics some of the smartest people you can meet in terms of what they understand. And high school education is not something to be looked down on. This was always about a distraction. What did you do? Why did you do it? What did you know? Those were the questions, and he was more than capable of answering them. And obviously the GBI did not like what he had to share, OK?

Let's bring in Laura Coates. We invited Mr. Bryan's attorney to come back on, by the way. He declined. Now, Laura, as I suggested in the introduction, in the incident report, the McMichael's named a Roddie as having been present and trying to stop, to block Ahmaud. McMichael stated that then Ahmaud got away from the car and ran away. That's what we were asking about. His lawyer said that never happened. Obviously GBI must find differently, yes?

LAURA COATES, CNN INTERNATIONAL LEGAL ANALYST: Yes. And of course it's important for a false imprisonment or an attempt to commit false imprisonment because you have to actually intend to confine the person. They can have no reasonable means of escape.

And arguably, what we saw from that now viral and very traumatic video, we saw a young man who was jogging who was videotaped for more than four minutes and at the end of his race, at the end of his journey, were this men with shotguns and armed who are blocking him at every turn.

That entails somebody who would be falsely imprisoned. And I would add that you actually have to intend to do so. He had no reasonable means of escape and perhaps that's the reason I've been trying to come back to your show right now.

CUOMO: Just to be clear, we asked him about exactly that statement in the incident report. Here's his answer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: In the police report, the McMichael referred to a Roddie. I'm assuming that was you, yes?

GOUGH: OK. Hold on, Chris. You've been a prosecutor, and you can imagine that this prosecutor that's been in this case 24 hours, she's going to start throwing stuff around her living room if you start doing her job for her, OK?

CUOMO: So, Mr. Bryan, how did you come to be in the car videotaping that day?

You don't want to talk about that either? All right. So, let's do this. You were afraid of the facts of this case, counselor, why?

GOUGH: Sir, I'm not afraid of anything.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: Better be afraid now because the combination, Laura, of what the McMichael said at the scene and the fact that they released Roddie's tape. So, how did Roddie's tape get to the McMichael if he supposedly had no relationship with them and didn't know them? You know, he was looking at trouble. You said it that night, and now the GBI shares your assessment at least in terms of probable cause for an arrest.

[22:50:07]

COATES: Well, it's because that very question you asked. Because everyone was wondering whether this person was coincidentally at the scene at the time that a 25 year-old jogger was gun down. Was it coincident that he was at the precise moment to capture it? Or was he complicit in some way.

And obviously the Georgia Bureau of Investigations in a matter of days, as opposed to the matter of month that it took the prosecutor's office original to even bring this case to light in some manner, only because of his own mother, Wanda Cooper. You can find that they found he's not coincidentally on the scene. And the reason that is so important is because that first charge, the

felony murder one. Felony murder is one of those odd thing that's counter into the people. If I didn't actually fire the gun, then why would I be held accountable? And they also point to things like are we going to prosecute everybody who may be present to film something? What about the Walter Scott case? Do we prosecute the person who was there?

No, we don't actually punish the truly innocent bystander. Who the law does punish are the people who allegedly and according to investigation now we're finding have somehow encouraged or were a part of participated in the underlying event.

Now, if you're trying to falsely imprison someone, that's a felony. Any killing that takes place in furtherance of that felony, you are reliable for. In Georgia, by the way, is even more unique than most states, Chris. Because, say a police officer had intervened and you are committing an armed robbery and the police officer ends up shooting somebody. And one of your codefendants, guess what, you're responsible for them. Because you caused the officer to even fire.

So, in Georgia you're talking about felony murder cases. Where we hold people liable for their participation. And it seems that the GBI found that Mr. Roddie Bryan was more than an innocent bystander and not coincidentally on the scene.

CUOMO: And that second charge on him also gives you a little bit of a look into the head of the prosecution that they do not believe people at that scene had any right to try to detain Ahmaud Arbery. Otherwise they wouldn't hit him with false imprisonment. And if they don't think he had a right to detain that means, that they didn't think that the citizen's arrest law would give him any clearance on this.

Now, the mystery remains in terms of understanding the situation that day, Diego Perez. The other neighbor. Who was in contact with Mr. English the owner of the house? You know, there's different reporting about where he was on that day and what he knew and what he sent. He's very important to hear from. We could try to reach out to him. Because he may clarify so many things for so many people.

COATES: Or he could add to some of the concern. Remember, we are understanding through the counsel of the Arbery family that there's more than one filming available. That there were other people perhaps are either on the scene in some way. And so, it goes to your logic to suggest that people who may have participated in some either tangential way, we do not know or in a more direct way are now being brought in the under and arrested.

And people tend to clam up, Chris, when they find themselves perhaps not coincidentally on a scene. And I'm glad that you keep referring us back to the property owner, Larry English. Because remember all of this presumably started with two men trying to be in defense of someone's property who never even reported an incident. And so, lawfully imprisoning, lawfully detaining this person, it appears they were absolutely not doing that. CUOMO: I remember the first time I asked for your take on this. You

said, it can't just be about the 23rd. February 23rd is obviously the last day of Ahmaud Arbery life. But it was only the first step in understanding this story. This has to be about what people thought they knew and decided to act upon. Laura Coates, as always, thank you for being value added.

COATES: Thank you.

CUOMO: All right. I want to keep this trend going of not ending on the bad. OK? Because look, we have everything in our society. Especially during crisis. Look at this beauty. A pint size super-hero. If this doesn't tag at your heart. Her mission are follow through her reasoning. She is an American. Even my little black heart is beating more tonight. She'll show you why.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:55:00]

CUOMO: We want to remember why we smile. Why we believe? Why we have hope? Take a look at this 10 year-old from Connecticut. Chelsea Fair. Girl is a rock star. What did she want for her birthday this year? To help other kids who are less fortunate. She launched Chelsea's charity with her parents and asked guests at her party to donate art supplies in lieu of gifts. What'd she do with the supplies? She was able to give out 40 art kits to a homeless shelter in New York.

Do you know how desperate kids are in shelters for any kind of distraction and for any kind of sign that somebody knows they're there and cares. But she didn't stop there. With her mother's help, they were able to donate nearly 1,000 art kits in five months.

And during the pandemic. An additional 1,500 to schools, shelters, foster homes across 12 states. Sixth grader says it's her dream to meet every child in the world to give them art and then maybe we'll have world peace. What an incredible inspiration.

Remember, for all the bad, for all the acid. For all the toxicity in what we see around us. We are this little girl too. She is part of our interconnectedness and our interdependence. No matter how bad things get, remember, there's always hope.