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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Trump Visits Ford Plant in Michigan. Aired 4-4:30p ET

Aired May 21, 2020 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:00]

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: I was in the room when he said it. And so he's now once again putting those threats out there.

And, Jake, we should note that that study you're talking about from those disease modelers at Columbia University, the president was asked about that when he left the White House earlier, and he disputed it and dismissed it and said this about it:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Columbia is an institution that's very liberal. It's a -- I think it's just a political hit job, you want to know the truth.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: So, of course, as you noted, it doesn't mention the president, but it's interesting to hear him call it a political hit job and to just completely dismiss it, and instead reference his travel ban that he did on China, because, Jake, we know from reporting that, actually, while the president was in India on his last big foreign trip he took before the pandemic, back here at the White House, top HHS officials were meeting and talking about social distancing.

And they actually had a meeting scheduled with the president to talk about putting these measures in place for the nation, which, of course, they did much later on.

That meeting got canceled, though, because, as the president was flying back on Air Force One was when that CDC doctor put out that statement saying that people need to get ready for an abrupt change to the way that we were living.

And that, of course, sent a jolt to the stock market. The president was upset about that. They canceled that meeting that they were going to have, where the officials were going to talk about social distancing with the president.

And that was when, of course, he put the vice president in charge. And it was several weeks before they moved forward with those social distancing measures.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Yes.

And obviously, the Columbia document, the study, is not a political document at all. And, in fact, if it's a political hit job, it's a political hit job against Mayor de Blasio and Governor Cuomo as well, because it specifically goes into how many lives in New York City could have been saved if social distancing measures and other measures had been taken one week earlier.

It's nothing to do with politics. It's a look at the effect of social distancing and other measures and how it saved lives, which is a point that President Trump just made about how the fact that they did take these steps saved lives, which I don't think anybody can dispute.

So I don't understand why saying, as a scientist -- with scientific data, if you had taken those steps one week earlier, you also could have saved lives.

But let's also talk about, Kaitlan, the fact that President Trump was just going after the attempt by officials in Michigan to allow people to vote by absentee ballot by mail, which I believe Michigan residents voted for to expand access to vote absentee, even without a need to do so.

There are lots of states that do this. Oregon has been doing it for years. Republican state Utah has been doing it for a long time. And, in fact, there was a significant vote-by-mail effort in that California congressional district that a Republican just won.

Again, this doesn't seem to be based on facts. And he seems to only be attacking the methods when they are in states that Democrats, at least right now, are polling well in when it comes to his reelection effort.

COLLINS: Yes, he's not citing any evidence when he's talking about this massive fraud that he believes happens when there is mail-in voting.

And, of course, historically, Republicans have been against something like this, but this is changing underneath this. The ground is changing underneath this because of the pandemic. And people are concerned about going to vote.

You saw what happened in Wisconsin, when people went to vote and there was an outbreak, of course, of coronavirus in some of those places. And so that's the concern. So we're -- it's not just Democrats that are moving in this direction. You have also seen several Republican secretaries of state weigh this idea as well.

You have seen it in Georgia. We even heard from Ronna McDaniel, who was on this trip with the president from Michigan, the RNC chairwoman, who said just the other day she actually personally doesn't have a problem with sending those applications for the mail-in votes to voters just to the fact that you -- when you're out applying for one, that ensures that you are who you say you are.

But the president is continuing to go against this, despite it causing a pretty big headache for his political aides, because, of course, Michigan is a battleground state. And he has tied this directly to what he believes is going to happen in November, Jake.

TAPPER: One wonders if maybe he's saying this right now so as to cast doubt about the November election if it doesn't go the way he wants, because, otherwise, it doesn't make any sense why he's only attacking the vote-by-mail or absentee ballot efforts in Michigan and Nevada, as opposed to everywhere where they take place, including states that he's definitely going to win, including in the congressional district that just flipped from Democrat to Republican, Congresswoman Katie Hill's old district.

Kaitlan Collins, thanks so much.

Joining me now, CNN chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

And, Sanjay, one of the questions right now that we're all wondering about is, Ford has made it very clear that everybody at the plant needs to wear a mask. They made this known publicly.

[16:05:03]

President Trump, for whatever reason, has thus far refused to wear a mask publicly. It's -- as we know, it's an effective tool in preventing people from getting any germs that you might have. It's really about protecting people from you if you're asymptomatic.

There are a lot of people who think it's important, a lot of people in the health world who think it's important that President Trump set an example. And if he's at a place where masks are required, he should wear a mask.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I think there's no question.

And it's worth pointing out as well that there's good data now, Jake, on the effectiveness of these masks. Even if you look at some of these models, the numbers have moved all over the place, but in areas where they have projected a little bit more downward, it's because, despite mobility of people as they start to move around, masks seem to be making a difference.

Also, Jake, it's worth pointing out, he -- it seems like the president the White House doctors are concerned enough about the exposure present and Trump had to start him on this drug that has not been proven, hydroxychloroquine. So there's a concern there.

If you have a concern now that you may be harboring the virus, even more reason to wear a mask. I realize that he's getting tested on a regular basis. But the test can have a false negative. It may test negative one day and then test positive the next day.

The best way to give some confidence to the people around you that you're not going to inadvertently infect them is to wear a mask. I mean, we're learning as we go along. But that's become pretty clear here in the United States around the world. It's one of the ways that we can actually start to slow down the spread of this, and everyone needs to do it. TAPPER: And one of the things, you and I have been talking about

places where some health advocates worried there would be a spike in new cases, whether Florida or Georgia or Colorado.

And the data is in different places for different states. But I think it's fair to say there hasn't been an eruption of cases that some people really worried about. And one of the reasons I have heard individuals in those states give is that -- because people, even as they try to go back to semi-normal, people are adhering to some of these distancing guidelines, staying six feet away from each other, wearing masks in public, not packing restaurants or bars.

And that -- so, as you note, we're learning more about this virus as we go. That does seem to, at least anecdotally, be effective. '

GUPTA: Yes, I think that we tend to think of this as open or close in terms of these states.

And it's the nuance in between. It's that gray area in between where everything lies right now, Jake. I mean, even if the state is open, people still going out, trying to do a better job at maintaining physical distance, wearing masks.

Obviously, we see images of people who are not adhering to that at all. But I think that the larger story may be that people, as a general rule, are thinking about it much more than they used to. And, frankly, they didn't think about it at all before. Just basic sort of virus protections in terms of decreasing spread, it wasn't something that we really considered or thought about much in the United States, certainly, five, six months ago.

So, the fact that we're thinking about it at all, I think, makes a difference. And, again, the models reflect that.

I do want to say, though, Jake, if you look at the numbers overall, and you look at the projections, though, based on reopenings, they are going to go up. I don't think that's a surprise at all. And the data that we're getting, it's not clear how good some of this data is.

And I don't want to harp on that too much, because I don't know how good it is or how bad it is right now. Frankly, it should all be funneled through the CDC, which is what we were promised. And there should be one national database actually looking at that data and reporting it out.

We don't have that. It's very mishmash right now. It makes it very challenging as journalists. But I think we can show these projected spikes in southern cases. Palm Beach, right now. I think the current is around 102 people becoming infected every day.

They say, in four weeks, so it'll be close to 383 people per day. That's in Palm Beach. So, you're seeing some of the numbers here. Those are the numbers based on when we may have actually implemented the stay-at-home orders.

My point, though, Jake, is that the numbers are going to go up. It's a question of how much.

TAPPER: So, Sanjay, some pictures are coming in right now from Ypsilanti, Michigan.

GUPTA: Yes.

TAPPER: And you see President Trump standing probably about six feet away from a couple individuals giving a tour of him at the Ford plant there. But the president is clearly not wearing a mask.

It doesn't appear as though the other two are either. So, for what it's worth, the president seems to be practicing distancing, but not wearing a mask.

GUPTA: I think people attach these hard and fast rules. Like, OK, if you're standing six feet away -- OK, one person wearing a mask, looks like.

Maybe both the gentlemen are wearing masks.

TAPPER: Yes.

GUPTA: I can't even tell.

But, regardless, the president is not. And...

TAPPER: Actually, it looks like -- Sanjay, just to interrupt, just to interrupt -- I'm sorry -- there are four people in the shot other than President Trump. All four of them are wearing masks. And President Trump is not.

[16:10:00]

Go ahead. I'm sorry.

GUPTA: I just think this is a mistake, Jake.

And I don't want to -- I just don't -- I don't know what to make of this. I mean, I guess I know what to make of it, is that it's not -- it's dangerous.

I mean, he -- it's not about protecting the president at this point. It's about, in some ways, protecting the people around him.

The gentlemen that are wearing masks around him are doing so to help protect those around them, right? You wear the mask so you don't put the virus into the environment.

And the president should be doing the same thing. He should be thinking about protecting the people that are around him. Again, I realize that he gets tested, which is important, an important factor here.

But the tests do have false negatives. And I think we have gotten so stuck on, OK, well, if you stay six feet away, you're definitely going to be fine. No, the point is, there's a contagious virus out there. You want to do everything you can to mitigate the spread.

Even with a mask, you should stay six feet away, is my point. We're trying to break the spread of this virus. And these are the ways that you do it. I don't know, Jake. I mean, it's a bad example. It's just a bad example.

And I can see here people inching in closer and closer. It worries me. I think it worries most people who are public health people, because they see -- they imagine the virus circulating in circumstances like this.

TAPPER: It's unusual.

Let me bring Kaitlan Collins back, because, Kaitlan Collins, I mean, President Trump is very eager, as are we all, to reopen the country. Testing is not where it needs to be in order for all of us to have a clear idea of how many people around us might be carriers, whether or not there are -- there is anyone we should stay away from.

It's great at the White House, by the way. If you work at the White House, then testing is fantastic. But other than that, it's not up to speed for the rest of us, for people at meatpacking plants, for people on the front lines who work in grocery stores, EMTs, police, health care workers. Testing is not where it needs to be.

But President Trump, do you have any idea why he's so reluctant to wear a mask publicly?

I remember reading in "The Post" or "The Times" that, within the White House, there was an individual on the National Security Council who wore a mask, and he was derided for doing so, almost as if it was a sign of weakness.

It's not a sign of weakness, obviously, Kaitlan. It's a -- you don't wear a mask to protect yourself. You wear a mask to protect other people.

COLLINS: And it's also is just so easy to wear a mask, is the other thing that people have noted.

And so this has actually been a pretty big fight inside the White House because of the optics here, because everyone saw what happened when the vice president went to the Mayo Clinic. He did not wear a mask, despite it being their policy, because there was this weird back and forth, with the president saying he didn't picture himself ever wearing one.

So you see him there speaking with reporters.

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Who are you with?

QUESTION: I'm Carol Cain with CBS Detroit. (OFF-MIKE)

TRUMP: Good. Good. Very good. QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)

My question to you is this. Because of all the ventilators being made here at Ford and (OFF-MIKE) we now know we have enough manufacturing going on for the time being as far as ventilator goes.

You said we think we have enough, in fact, we can share with other countries.

My question to you, sir, is, looking six months from now, a year from now, how many more -- how much do we need to keep back in out stockpile to keep us safe?

TRUMP: Yes, we were just talking about it. We have a very big stockpile right now.

And we're building it bigger. And we're helping a lot of other countries. Nigeria, we just sent 1,000. We have various -- various countries, France, Spain. We have a lot going to Italy.

We have a lot going to a different probably 15, 18 countries. They're calling us. We had the capacity to do this. Nobody else did. So, every state now has more than they need. And our stockpile is totally full.

We have a tremendous amount. So now we're really helping other countries, where they're losing a lot of people because they don't have ventilators. Ventilators are hard to do.

And I want to say that Ford and General Electric have done an incredible job, working together. And also the companies that worked with you, they really did -- they did a great job. They do a great car and they do -- they really did a great job on the ventilators.

And I hear the quality of the ventilator has been really top of the line.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.

TRUMP: So, we really appreciate it, fellows. That's a great job.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.

QUESTION: Mr. President, there was a lot of interest whether you would end up wearing a mask today.

TRUMP: Yes.

QUESTION: Could you just take us through your thought process why you decided not to wear a mask?

TRUMP: Well, I did wear. I had one on before. I wore one in this back area.

But I didn't want to give the press the pleasure of seeing it. But, no, where I had it in the back area, I did put a mask on.

QUESTION: Did you have the goggles on, too, as well, sir?

TRUMP: I did. I had goggles, goggles and a mask, right back there.

QUESTION: Well, why would you not be wearing...

TRUMP: And here's another one.

QUESTION: Why would you not be wearing it (OFF-MIKE)

TRUMP: Because in this area -- thank you.

QUESTION: Why would you not be wearing it here, sir?

TRUMP: Not necessary here. All -- everybody has been tested, and I have been tested.

In fact, I was tested this morning. So, it's not necessary.

QUESTION: But the executives are wearing them.

TRUMP: Well, that's their choice.

[16:15:01]

Well, that's your choice. I was given -- I was given a choice. And I had one on in an area where they preferred it.

So I put it on and it was very nice. It looks very nice. But they said not necessary here.

Yeah, please.

REPORTER: What about the example that it would send for other Americans to see --

TAPPER: All right. We're going to cut out there. President Trump riffing on the floor of the Ford plant in Ypsilanti, Michigan.

I want to go back to Sanjay Gupta if he's there and just one more time. He was -- the president was asked why he wasn't wearing a mask. He said he was tested, he does not need to wear a mask.

First of all, we know people have caught and contracted coronavirus, the novel coronavirus at the White House, so as you note, there are also false negatives. As you note, who knows what he encountered on his way from the airport to that plant and as you note, we're trying to reopen. The country is trying to reopen and get back to some semblance of normal.

But health officials feel masks need to be a part of that, Sanjay.

GUPTA: We have evidence, you know, increasing evidence, and some of it good. I mean, I think this is -- there are these things that are more hope, and that masks do seem to make a difference and people even as they open are I think you know, you look at some of the data around the country, it obviously differs in different places. But more people are wearing masks than not, which is a -- which is a good thing, because again we have that evidence.

I think the other concern, obviously, if the president that he was worried about this exposure it sounds like he had, which prompted the taking of this medication, which does not have any evidence that it works. So, if you are worried enough about that, you know, wear a mask, because if are you worried you may have the virus, then wear a mask so that you don't spread it to others. That's the point.

And I think people fundamentally get that at this point. People think, well, I'm willing to take the risk. You're not the one taking the risk. You're giving risks to other people as a result of not wearing a mask.

So when we do this, we do this for other people not for ourselves, largely speaking. Unless it's one of the fitted N95-type masks, which is going to do a better job at filtrating out some of the viral particles, you're wearing it to protect others, Jake.

TAPPER: Kaitlan Collins, your thoughts on President Trump not wearing a mask, I guess it was anticipated he was not going to. But still, health officials, including many in his administration, were hoping that he would set the example. Your thoughts?

COLLINS: And you see there, he is showing a mask to the reporters after claiming he wore one backstage. You know when the cameras weren't around, the president says, because he said he didn't want to give the press the pleasure of seeing him wear a mask.

It really goes to show it's not about a health thing. He said he wore one backstage with goggles. He basically does not want to be seen on camera wearing a mask. That's what he told reporters there.

That has been a fight inside the administration because some aides have argued it's just easier if he wears one. And then the talk of why he went to Michigan is to about, you know, this reemergence of this manufacturing plant and not about whether or not the president wore a mask. And now, of course, because he says, you know, he wore one backstage where there are no cameras, but he did not wear one in front of our reporters, because he didn't want reporters to see him wearing a mask.

That is going to be, of course, an emerging headline that comes out of this, and he's just been incredibly resistant to wearing one. Aides did not expect him to wear one today in front of the cameras because of that and, of course, he did not.

TAPPER: It seems an odd thing to worry about given the fact that reporters have been relaying that health officials think it would be a great idea for all leaders across the country to wear them in public. I don't know why he would not want that image out there.

But, Kaitlan Collins, Sanjay Gupta, thank you so much. Appreciate it. Coming up -- or actually right now in our national lead, a cry for

help from the mayor of Montgomery, Alabama. The mayor says the city's healthcare system has been, quote, maxed out. Mayor Steven Reed is warning that people who need an ICU bed, an intensive care unit bed, that they may not be able to get one because patients from rural areas have overwhelmed the city's hospitals.

Here's the mayor on CNN earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR STEVEN REED (D), MONTGOMERY, ALABAMA: It's very alarming. And we started getting calls probably a week and a half ago from hospital administrators explaining to us the number of COVID patients that they were seeing was not only increasing but that people were coming in, in worse shape. So we thought we needed to remind our community that this pandemic is not over.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: As CNN Erica Hill reports for us now, this is one reason why there are serious concerns how to deal with the virus as states begin to reopen and summer rolls around.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GOV. ANDREW CUOMO (D-NY): As a parent, until I know how widespread this is, I would not send my children to day camp.

ERICA HILL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: As summer looms, day camp is on hold in New York state where 157 possible cases of multisystem inflammatory syndrome in children, the rare illness that may be linked to COVID-19 are being investigated.

[16:20:10]

There is also new research about why children may be less prone to the virus, itself. Researchers say the receptors in the nose used by the virus to enter cells appear to be less common in kids.

In Alabama, more signs that life is different.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I absolutely felt safe.

HILL: Graduates spaced six feet apart, the stadium at half capacity. While an hour south, hospitals are maxed out.

REED: Right now, if are you from Montgomery and you need an ICU bed, you're in trouble.

HILL: The looming crisis in Montgomery, Alabama's hospitals comes as the total number of case there has more than doubled since the beginning of the month. It's just one of several areas that could see a rapid increase in new cases according to a new model from a team at the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia and the University of Pennsylvania. Their finding shows states that opened early, like Alabama, are at particular risk.

DR. DAVID RUBIN, CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL OF PHILADELPHIA: I think the value of our forecast is that there's still time to modify behavior.

HILL: Campground, in-person dining, casinos in Graceland, just a few of the new additions across the country today.

Michigan, which has grabbed national headlines for its tough stay-at- home measures, announcing in-person retail and gatherings of ten or less can return Tuesday.

Orlando's theme parks offering a glimpse of what's to come.

JOHN SPROUIS, EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT AND CHIEF ADMINISTRATION OFFICER, UNIVERSAL PARKS & RESORTS: We're going to ramp up slowly in terms of making sure that all the procedures and all the practices that we are putting in place actually works.

HILL: Florida is one of 17 states reporting an increase in new cases over the past week.

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: The scientific every day clearly indicates that physical separation has worked but not completely. If you look at the curves in our country, it isn't like everything is dramatically going down. Now is not the time to tempt fate and pull back completely.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HILL: I just want to update you on what's happening with Universal Orlando. They presented their plan for a phased reopening. That was approved this afternoon by the Orange County task force. It now goes onto the mayor.

But just to give you a sense of that phased reopening would look like, they have a target date of June 5th for the public. Masks will be mandatory. If you don't have one, they can give you one, temperature checks for both visitors and employees. They're also going to get rid of single riders that have virtual lines to try to make food as contactless as possible in terms of payment and using mobile point as well.

They also said they will have staggered parking, interactive play areas will be closed, Jake, and also Universal characters will not be out and about mingling with guests.

TAPPER: All right. Hope for the best there.

Erica Hill, thank you so much.

For the ninth week in a row, millions of Americans file for unemployment and now some small businesses who could use loan money to help save jobs are getting it back. We'll explain why next.

Plus, is Latin America the next coronavirus epicenter? We are live on the ground in Mexico and Brazil with startling new data. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:27:24]

TAPPER: Our money lead, another 2.4 million Americans have now filed for first time unemployment benefits. That now makes 38.6 million people in the U.S. in just the last nine weeks or nearly one in four American workers who have now filed for unemployment.

Today, the U.S. Senate is expected to change the rules for a program designed to help, the Paycheck Protection Program, which offers loans to small businesses if owners keep employees on payroll.

But as CNN's Phil Mattingly reports, some business owners say they desperately need the money but feel they cannot take the chance with the program's confusing rules.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RICHARD E. FORRESTEL, JR., CPA, TREASURER, COLD SPRING CONSTRUCTION COMPANY: The moment our bank said it's time, you can start filling out an application, I jumped right on it. And I didn't have a long time to sit down and analyze anything.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Cold Springs Construction in Akron, New York, is not a public company. And being family owned with 110 employees, it is far from large.

But Richard Forrestel Jr., the company's treasurer, chose to give a coveted $2.2 million small business loan back to his bank. Why?

FORRESTEL: It's a classic bait and switch. It's the whole world change. The whole purpose and the whole concept in my mind completely changed.

MATTINGLY: Cold Springs Construction is one of small businesses caught in the crossfire of a threatened Trump administration crackdown on companies who took the emergency payroll protection program money.

TRUMP: We'll go after them very seriously, yeah.

MATTINGLY: For large companies who took that loan money, Trump's words were designed to force them to reverse course.

TRUMP: If any companies that got loans that they weren't entitled to, we'll go after them very seriously.

MATTINGLY: As public outrage grew over tens of millions of dollars provided to companies like Shake Shack, Ruth's Chris and Auto Nation, the Trump administration pledged penalties, including prosecution. But the details of penalties and which businesses would actually face them shifted over weeks and struck fear for what might be coming.

FORRESTEL: Not only did we have, you know, just a phenomenal tidal wave of issues to deal with, now, we had a slippery slope of the government changing the rules on the fly.

MATTINGLY: Plus, the deadlines to return the money with no penalty kept shifting, from May 7th to May 14th, and finally, May 18th.

And while the backlash was directed at large public companies, it was some of the very small businesses the program was designed to help that were faced with an impossible choice, according to lawyers who work with them.

ALLYSON BAKER, PARTNER, VENABLE LLC: We have had a number of instances, anecdotes as well, where folks declined to take the money. And, unfortunately, in some cases, they had to lay people off, which is the exact opposite I think of what you'd want to hear as a program design called the Paycheck Protection Program.

MATTINGLY: And by the time that guidance was provided safe harbor for loans under $2 million and removed the threat of prosecution was finally released on May 13th, for Forrestel and the company his grandfather started in 1911, it was too little too late. The decision had been made.