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Cuomo Prime Time

President Trump Wants to See Churches Open; Crowded Places Could Trigger More COVID Cases; Coronavirus Silently Infect the General Population; Coronavirus Pandemic, On The Front Lines; One-On- One Interview With Sen. Tammy Duckworth About Celebrating The Memorial Day Weekend And The Best Way To Remember The Fallen; Closing Argument Of Chris Cuomo. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired May 22, 2020 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[22:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: Hey, everybody. I'm Chris Cuomo. Welcome back to a bonus hour of Prime Time.

We're back to more B.S. from the president today that he has powers that are not granted to him by the Constitution. Last month he declared total authority to liberate states. That was not true, and neither is this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Some governors have deemed liquor stores and abortion clinics as essential but have left out churches and other houses of worship. That's not right.

So, I'm correcting this injustice and calling houses of worship essential. I call upon governors to allow our churches and places of worship to open right now. If they don't do it, I will override the governors.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: Does he have the right? No, legal experts will tell you. Let's not spend that much time on that. Is it right? Now, remember, this is the same president who wanted churches packed by Easter Sunday. Tens of thousands have died since then.

And by the way, a lot of people have gotten sick and worse from being in places of worship that weren't following enough rules to keep them safe, but he has a whole lot of faith that this is all going to disappear.

So, let's bring in Kaitlan Collins at the White House. Kaitlan, what is the explanation that removes the stink of playing religion in politics?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, they haven't really explained even what the president's authority that he says he has to override states and governors if they don't open up these places of religion that they talked about.

And this was a surprise kind of today now that the president is deeming them essential because the White House had been going back and forth with the CDC over the guidance for these places of worship to reopen. What it was going to look like.

The White House thought what the CDC wanted to put out was too strict and that basically churches and other places would not be able to abide by that guidance. The guidance that they had put out, and so they didn't want them to do it.

And then there was a question would they put out guidance at all. And then we came to where we are today where the president said he wanted to deem them essential services, so therefore, they can open, he believes.

And so, the question really is, you know, what are governors going to do. Because you heard some governors like the governor of New Hampshire today say, no, it's actually our decision. We will make that call when we feel it's right and it's going to be based on what the data is looking like on the number of cases that we have.

CUOMO: So, I want to play this question about the authority. What is the basis for the authority that was then asked to the press secretary Kayleigh McEnany after the president refused to take questions? Here's what she said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What specific provision of federal law allows the president to override a governor's decision.

KAYLEIGH MCENANY, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The president will strongly encourage every governor to allow their churches to reopen. And boy, it's interesting to be in a room that desperately seems to want to see these churches and houses of worship stay closed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. But the president said that he has to --

(CROSSTALK)

MCENANY: Yes, Jeff (ph).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kayleigh, I object to that. I mean, I go to church. I'm dying to go back to church. The question that we're asking you and would like to ask the president and Dr. Birx is, is it safe? And if it's not safe, is the president trying to encourage that or does the president agree with Dr. Birx that people should wait?

[22:05:00]

MCENANY: Jeff, it is safe to reopen your churches if you do so in accordance with the guidelines.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: That's what every governor is doing, but how did the cheap shot play?

COLLINS: Not really well. I think that was the question there, as you saw Kayleigh McEnany and Dr. Birx have been backing off the president being pretty strong when he said, you know, they can call if they want to, but it doesn't make a difference what these governors say because we want these churches and these other places of worship to be reopened.

And of course, the concern is, is it OK. And you saw Dr. Birx, she said, you know, if you feel like you've got a certain outbreak of COVID cases then maybe wait another week. And then you saw the press secretary there saying if they feel that they can do it in accordance with the guidance, if they feel like they can.

She was saying it was a hypothetical if it was going to be pitting governors against the president. But the president did not seem to be making that case at all, Chris, when he was out there. He was pretty adamant about this.

And what's, you know, notable about the background of this, is people are debating does he have the authority to do this if some places don't up their churches.

The Justice Department, if you notice, I've been paying attention to them in the last few weeks, have been talking about churches and other places that have been pushing back on those stay-at-home orders and they've come out in defense of them.

So, it will be a question as to whether or not they are going to try to defend the president if it does come down to where he is trying to overrule a governor.

CUOMO: For a president, you don't assume power in a vacuum. So, they'd have to show a specific authority for something like this. And the only law on the books about it that is relevant is going to be law that says you got to treat everyone the same way. If you don't treat churches or places of worship the way you do other businesses, you've got a problem.

And it was interesting, Kayleigh McEnany said as long as they follow the CDC guidelines, they should reopen. Well, that's true about everything, right, Kaitlan?

So, it really does raise the question of why the president is making this an issue when all he's asking for is what the governors are doing already. Where do you think this goes in terms of his following through on his threat?

COLLINS: It's hard to say. I mean, it was just not that long ago where the president was saying he believed as president he had total authority over governors. Something that really no one agreed with. Even the president's allies, his supporters, big constitutionalists do not agree that the president has authority over that situation.

So, it could just be this threat where the president wants to make this play. He had been looking at the numbers that he's gotten with his poll numbers with Evangelicals and what's happening with that. They've notice that Evangelicals have been pushing back against some of these stay-at-home orders that they thought were too strict, and so this could be a way to appeal to those voters.

Because that is certainly been something that is at the top of the president's list. He has these weekly meetings with his political advisers. They are looking at the poll numbers pretty closely, so certainly this could be a factor in that announcement that came out today.

CUOMO: It certainly could. Kaitlan Collins, I thank you every time I see you, but on a Friday night, even though you technically have nowhere to go really that would be (Inaudible).

COLLINS: That's very true.

CUOMO: I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Kaitlan, thank you.

COLLINS: Of course.

CUOMO: All right. Cases are climbing again in many states. By the way, you know what? That's not fair. Cases are climbing in many states. That's all we have to say. We don't have to say again. Because we don't know whether or not they're climbing more because of reopening or they're climbing at all because of reopening. Because they were going to be climbing anyway, and that's what made reopening so dicey.

So, I don't have to say climbing again. They were going to climb and they reopened anyway, which makes how you reopen so important. All right?

Now, now that that's where we are in terms of our mindset, how can there be no national plan to do exactly that, open safely? Everyone is itching to get out again, especially Memorial Day weekend.

Kyung Lah is going to show us why this weekend especially we have to be very careful.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR BILL DE BLASIO (D-NY), NEW YORK CITY: Well, we're about to start a very important weekend.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KYUNG LAH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The first summer holiday weekend. A major test of America versus the virus. As millions head outside.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's nice to have the option to at least come to the beach and just have some fun with friends for once.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think it will be very busy and I'm confident that people are going to want to do this in a safe manner because we know if things don't work, we may go back to a lockdown situation and I don't think anybody wants that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LAH: Beaches up and down the East Coast will be open with enforced social distancing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If we don't get voluntary compliance to it, beach ambassador, then they'll ask a law enforcement officer to come and actually enforce the governor's executive orders for the distancing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LAH: But different rules depending on where you are.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Advisable at all times but I don't think it's realistic or practical to ask people to go to the beach and wear a mask.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LAH: As states limit the number of people on beaches, they're now deciding whether to open churches this weekend. After this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I call upon governors to allow our churches and places of worship to open right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LAH: Rhode Island's governor bluntly said that's not going to happen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[22:10:02]

GOV. GINA RAIMONDO (D-RI): Honestly, that would be reckless. They have a lot of work to do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LAH: While America dives ahead, data shows this week more states are heading in the wrong direction. In the weekly average of new cases, nine states here in green are down. Twenty-four states are steady. And 17 states in red and orange are up. Twenty-five thousand new cases in the U.S. added just yesterday.

Among the steepest climbs, Arkansas. The state saw a 65 percent increase in the new rate of cases compared to a week ago. The state still opening water parks and pools today with restrictions.

In nearby Alabama crowds packed beaches today despite warnings that more cases would stress an already stretched Montgomery hospital system where ICU beds run short.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

I'm quite worried with the Memorial Day weekend coming and the restrictions loosening that this is going to go like prairie fire. Again, it's been smoldering. We've had a lid on it, but it is now really having the potential to get out of control.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LAH: Dr. Deborah Birx says the White House Coronavirus Task Force is still trying to understand why some cities continue to see spikes despite social distancing orders.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. DEBORAH BIRX, WHITE HOUSE CORONAVIRUS RESPONSE COORDINATOR: Even though Washington has remained closed, L.A. has remained closed, Chicago has remained closed, we still see these ongoing cases.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LAH: Kyung Lah, CNN, Los Angeles.

CUOMO: That's the point. Is that even places that are closed you still have increase in cases? So, what happens when you reopen? You can't expect less cases, right? That's why how we do it and trying to be safe, especially going into this weekend when we are all remembering how many gave the ultimate sacrifice to this country. What are we willing to sacrifice right now?

Now, we don't have to guess what's going to happen if houses of worship -- if their congregations do too much congregating and don't follow the right types of rules. Right? No vaccine's in sight. We don't have a cure. We need to know the science that comes with this test of a lot more than faith.

So, let's bring in a professor, OK? Erin Bromage to take us through why we have to be careful and what happens if we're not. Next.

[22:15:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CUOMO: President Trump says churches should be deemed essential. He's demanding that states allow them to reopen, pretending to order just that.

Let's set aside for a moment that he doesn't have the power to proclaim this, and let's just focus on the reality that nobody is going out of their way to be unfair to churches. And he knows it and you know why he's picking this.

It's a distraction and it's a point of division. And that's what he is about. He should put that same energy into coming up with a plan about how to reopen safely so we don't have these questions and confusion. But here's a fact. Many churches will be reopening this weekend, long before he said a damn thing. So what do you need to know if you go?

Back with us tonight is Professor Erin Bromage. It's good to have you. Look, the CDC, not just places of worship, and look, it's a crimp in everybody who is a member of the faithful in terms of what your routine and how you practice your faith and what the ritual is. It's not easy on anybody who practices their faith that way.

But the CDC had specific concerns about this. Because they'd seen bad outcomes in congregations and places of worship. What makes these places and these occasions so particularly susceptible to spread?

ERIN BROMAGE, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF BIOLOGY, UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS DARTMOUTH: Chris, thanks for having me on the show.

In regard to churches, it just gets back to what we discussed last time. Indoor environment with lots of people, usually poor air flow, and in many churches lots of singing. And in doing that you're just setting yourself up for the most perfect environment for this virus to find a fresh set of new lungs.

CUOMO: Now, I've had a lot of people say that my singing is sickening, but why in this particular context does it matter if people are singing more?

BROMAGE: Because when you're singing, you're projecting a lot more noise and air out of your mouth. And when you're doing that that's putting more of those respiratory droplets that we've heard about out into the air.

And if you're infected and you have that virus, if you have this infection, you are then going to project those droplets into the air and put the virus there for other people to breathe in.

CUOMO: One more layer on this. Because we had, like, you know, for example, not only have we had a lot of other preachers say, you know, God will protect us, we're going to be OK. And that turned out not to be the case because God doesn't reward people for making bad choices very often.

And we had an Ohio lawmaker say, I'm not going to wear a mask because I was made in the image of Jesus and he doesn't have a mask on. What have we seen in terms of results of people getting sick by not following CDC guidelines in places of worship?

BROMAGE: Well, because the guidelines really haven't been there up until now, we don't have any data to say that here. But what I do know is just today I spent an hour on a Zoom call with about 80 faith leaders from Boston that are all very concerned about opening their services back up.

I was really honored to have the opportunity to be able to talk to them. Discuss the risks. Hear their concerns. And then also start to discuss ways that they may be able to reduce risks for their congregants.

CUOMO: Six feet apart and you're good or is it more complicated than that?

BROMAGE: It's much more complicated than that. Six feet indoors when you're there for a lot of time is not enough. You add singing into this, it is not enough. You add age and risk factors into this, it is not enough.

CUOMO: Restaurants opening up. Safe to go? And if so, how?

[22:20:04]

BROMAGE: Safe to go if they've developed a good plan, and that's the biggest thing with what we're looking at with reopening. Is not having a plan. Restaurants with a good plan, especially when you can dine on fresco when you can have that space outside, you can have a gentle breeze there diluting any virus away from you is a great plan and has reduced the risk of infection dramatically.

If we're looking at indoors in an enclosed environment with poor ventilation, you're increasing risk.

CUOMO: So, outdoors is the way to go if you're going to go at all. Fair point?

BROMAGE: Yes. Fair point.

CUOMO: And for obvious point of view is that because there is just more space for things to disburse and more opportunity for people to have distance?

BROMAGE: Yes, and no opportunity to accumulate. Accumulating virus is a problem. So, if it's being disbursed it doesn't build up in that environment. So, outdoors is always best and it's not just a little bit best, it's a lot best.

CUOMO: Big -- biggest concern for you going into this holiest -- this Memorial Day?

BROMAGE: Large gatherings of people that have an ambivalence for the risks associated with this. This is not about you and your risk, this is about the community in general. Appreciate that everyone doesn't have your good health and good fortune and understand that your actions, your decisions affect everybody.

CUOMO: And you know, he's not a scientist, but I did have a holy man say to me when I went to mass the last time before we stopped going, he said, hey, you don't need me to tell you to be your brother's keeper. That is the root of faith.

So if you're someone who wants to go to a place of worship, you more than anyone else should know that you should do what you can to keep other people safe. You are your brother's keeper.

Professor, thank you very much. The best to your family for good health and good fun while you remember the solemn occasion in this country of Memorial Day.

BROMAGE: I appreciate those thoughts. Thank you. Have a good weekend.

CUOMO: You too, sir.

Hospitals across America overrun with cases. I want you to listen, though, to what a frontline hero of the fight just told Congress about her hospital in the early days of this outbreak. And what they didn't know for more than a week. You're going to have to hear this. Next.

[22:25:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CUOMO: We try to get you the best data here so you can make the most informed choices. And on that level, there's a new model by a team at the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia and the University of Pennsylvania. It predicts coronavirus spikes in parts of the south.

Now, that warning comes as a doctor from Georgia working at one of the hardest hit hospitals there testified before Congress that COVID-19 spread quietly for 10 days before any of the staff knew about it. That doctor, Shanti Akers, joins us now on Prime Time. Doctor, thank you.

SHANTI AKERS, PULMONARY CRITICAL CARE PHYSICIAN: Thank you.

CUOMO: Prove it. How do you know that it was spreading before you knew?

AKERS: Well, we really had no indication it was in our community at all. At that point we had heard about cases in other parts of the country and we were continuing with business as usual in the beginning of March, and it was actually a physician in Atlanta who had called us saying that there was a patient who had recently been transferred from our hospital to Atlanta and that patient ended up being positive.

So that was the first communication we had that the cases were even in our town.

CUOMO: Do you believe it's because you weren't told or we weren't just able to assess?

AKERS: I don't think at that time we really had any indication that it had traveled that far. You know, we knew about cases in Seattle and New York, but there really was no way to know where the spread had been at that point and really we had so little information in the beginning in terms of, you know, how the patients would present, what the incubation time was for the illness, so I really just don't think we had enough information.

CUOMO: Time is a killer in a circumstance like this. And what did it mean in terms of the conditions you were forced to face?

AKERS: So at that time because of all the 10 days that we had had of the patient being expose, you know, exposing themselves to staff, there are things that we know increased risk of things like aerosolization, which we know allows particles to stay in the air much longer. And so this patient may have had treatments that had increased the

risk of exposure to staff members and that allowed that to potentially progress even further.

There had initially been a funeral event that had been a large congregation of people that we believe that a lot of the initial cases came from, so that compounded with staff being exposed for a period of time meant that there were a number of people potentially spreading this virus over a period of days.

CUOMO: You know, in March we spoke to a young woman named Carley Rice. She's a critical care nurse at your hospital. And I was talking to her about what it was like to deal with it personally. The risk and the requirements that were put on you guys. And she really moved us. Here's a sample to remind the audience.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARLEY RICE, REGISTERED NURSE, PHOEBE PUTNEY MEMORIAL HOSPITAL: I just get so emotional about what we have to see, like, with me being so young, I didn't ever think that I would see this amount of deaths all at one time.

I mean, you think about it throughout your nursing career, you're going to see a bunch of them, but all at one time is -- I don't know how to explain the feelings that I have for it. Like, it's -- sorry.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[22:29:58]

CUOMO: Some of the emotional toll you can't prepare for. But because of the delay and understanding what you are up against it meant that you didn't have the PPE. You didn't have the planning. You didn't have the protocols in place. Is that true?

DR. SHANTI AKERS, PULMONARY CRITICAL CARE PHYSICIAN: Yes, I think our hospital went to great lengths as soon as we were notified to have emergency meetings and really make sure that we had a robust PPE supply. You know, we were very fortunate with our administration that had foresight to plan back in January when they heard of cases outside the country that they started accumulating large quantities as much as we were able of PPE.

So our staff, fortunately, has been very well protected. That being said, there is still very limited knowledge about the treatments for the coronavirus at that time, so initially when people are coming in, we were just so overwhelmed both by the volume of cases, but also by how sick these patients were.

And as a result of that, even if you know everything that you possibly can do, just when you have E.R. inundated and ICU inundated and you have beds filling up, it's really hard -- excuse me. It's really hard to provide the best quality care for those patients when you know that, you know, just as the day progresses, just more and more are coming in and you just can't keep up. CUOMO: One of the frustrations in covering this story is that we all

gladly heroize what you and your colleagues are doing on the front lines. We analogize so much of your duty right now to being front line first responder wartime, you know, our warriors on the battle line.

The frustration is that it's hard to avoid thinking that we didn't kind of hang you out to dry. That we put you up against a set of challenges that were unreasonable. To think that you guys would be able to take on and that it's still kind of that way.

That we still don't have the urgency and desperation for planning and preparation that you guys have to exercise every day in dealing with the actual problem. I know part of that is what drove you to testify. What do you hope comes out of it?

AKERS: Well, I'm hoping a few things come out of it. One of which is people understand how a virus can affect a rural community. I know we've heard a lot about New York City cases and cases in other major metropolitan areas, but the reality is that this virus does not discriminate, this virus will travel as people travel.

And so you can be a town as small as ours or, you know, a much larger area and infectious disease does not change depending on location. And so I think I'm really hoping that people take some of the advice that's out there in terms of proper protections.

And I think also people need to understand that there's limitations to what a hospital system can provide and when we're overwhelmed, it's not that you know, people aren't working around the clock to do everything that they can, it's just that there is just only so much you can do when you're overwhelmed.

CUOMO: Right. And do you think that the desperation and the urgency that you see in the hospital is matched by leadership outside?

AKERS: So, that's a hard question to answer because I think that that depends on so many different things. You know, we were fortunate to have a mayor who very much took this seriously. We chose to shelter in place earlier in our state. And then additionally, when we did, you know, reach out to the governor for help through Governor Kemp and we received a lot of support through the National Guard.

You know, I think outside of that it's -- there's a lot of nuance to what's going on at a federal level, and I'm sure there are people that are much smarter than me that are working on all those different aspects, but I do know that from a local standpoint we had an enormous amount of support from our community, from our mayor and then also from our hospital administration.

CUOMO: What did you get in terms of feedback from Congress?

AKERS: It seemed like they were very much concerned about all the different things that the various health care workers and essential workers who had testified, all the various issues that we had all brought up. It seems like there's definitely a lot of different ways to tackle the problem, and I'm hopeful that they responded to all of our feedback and commentary with plans to go forward, to increase things like PPE and to allow essential workers, not just health care workers, but all essential workers to go back to work safely.

CUOMO: I had one clinician say to me, you know, usually the health care community works on a national level. Everybody has their own local concerns, but we kind of information share, we pass along protocols and things spread throughout systems and understand things. And they used as an example sepsis.

That when you started understanding about hospital-borne infections and then you had to change the socks and wash your hands, and there these simple things to do that you can get ahead of it, it spread all across the country. And yet with this pandemic, it seems like everybody has to figure it out on their own by state, by county and by community. Has that been your experience?

AKERS: I think that was true mostly just because we didn't know, like I said before, what we were really encountering when our cases initially started. You know, because we're a rural community-based hospital we don't have a larger academic center from which to draw a lot of resources or to have a lot of experts in different fields that might help give us that kind of guidance.

[22:35:07]

And so we were really reliant on colleagues from Italy and China to really provide that information. And I think even there may be other, you know, agencies around the country that were similar in trying to get a grasp of what the situation was.

CUOMO: You know, I'm looking at the timing here. You know, obviously you saw what had happened out west. And obviously then it started to hit the big travel hubs. What do you think it was that kept it from being obvious everywhere that you saw cases anything like it? What were the factors that went into making it difficult to know what you were dealing with?

AKERS: I think one factor largely was that, you know, we were in the middle of coming out of the winter season, respiratory illnesses often look a lot like each other, you know? So when you have a patient come in with fever, cough, shortness of breath, well, that can be flu or any other viral illness as well.

Additionally, I don't think we really knew at that point what the best way to risk stratify these parents were had asses who would be higher risk, lower risk, things like that. So that lack of this information, basic information about how the disease was transmitted. Is it airborne? Is it not. I think all those things contributed to us really not knowing.

But also I think when you live in a community like ours and you have a lot of patients that are sick from a number of other things, you know, it's an infection that traveled from China down to rural southwest Georgia. It's not usually at the forefront of your mind.

CUOMO: Yes, China, bounced to Europe, and you know, came through so many different points of entry. And you're in a complex community. Maybe a small place but it has a lot of problems, lot of poverty. A minority community that is exposed to a lot of systemic issues of poverty and underlying illnesses and food shortages and malnutrition and not getting enough health care as easily as they might and that all contributes to it.

Have you ever seen anything else that is as beguiling as this virus is? These little tumors that break out and then kids start getting weird things. And you learn that you have to change your protocols about people being on their back because of what it does to lungs. It just seems like it keeps throwing curveballs at us.

AKERS: Yes, for sure. I think that's been the fundamental problem with this whole illness, is every single day there is something new. You know, in the beginning we heard that largely children were not impacted by this illness. It was largely elderly patients and people with a lot of underlying medical components.

But, you know, our experience had been that we had some young patients with that had no underlying medical history that got sick. And so every day we were all really struggling to try to keep up with all the different pieces of information coming out from so many different sources, because it just seemed like depending on where the outbreaks were.

You may see it completely different consolation of symptoms than what you might elsewhere. And even when I compared after the fact with colleagues who are in different parts of the country, it seems like, you know, things that I would notice weren't necessarily true in other hospitals or in other regions.

CUOMO: So weird. It really just so weird. It will be such an interesting story, I guess for the next generation, to figure out what we went through here and what we learned about the virus and about ourselves. Dr. Shanti Akers, thank you very much. The best to you and your family for good health.

AKERS: Thank you.

CUOMO: All right. The V.A. system. Oh, we love the troops. We all care so much. Why am I saying it facetiously, sarcastically? Because I just don't see the follow through. Deaths in the V.A. system now top 1,000. And we know that's just part of how this tragedy is claiming our veterans.

And especially this weekend, it's a Memorial Day that, you know, that any component of the people that we have to honor the sacrifice, that they died this way when we could have stopped it. We have a duty to protect everyone who once protected us especially. Let's get after it with Senator and Iraq war veteran and Purple Heart recipient Tammy Duckworth. Next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:40:00] CUOMO: Memorial Day weekend. All about remembering the fallen. Those

who gave their lives defending this nation. True sacrifice, literally what the word means is the act of making something holy. So, what is the best way to remember them and also support other military members during this time?

Let's bring in Senator Tammy Duckworth, Iraq war veteran, Purple Heart recipient. Always good to have you on Prime Time. And every time I see you and certainly this time. Thank you for your service to the country.

SEN. TAMMY DUCKWORTH (D-IL): Thank you. Thanks for having me on and it's good to see you looking healthy again.

CUOMO: I'm one of the lucky ones. So, are we right to be as perturbed as many of us are about not hearing from Secretary Wilkie, not getting a straight count on veterans, you know, this idea that they're dying in other systems and not being counted and some states aren't counting them at all. Are we right to be upset or is there some excuse to be had?

DUCKWORTH: Well, we are right to be upset, and we should be concerned because veterans are especially vulnerable to covid-19. Especially those who are exposed to burn pits in Iraq and Afghanistan. And don't forget that our Vietnam veterans who were exposed to agent oranges also have reduced lung functions and other comorbidity, you know, other illness that make them even more vulnerable to this pandemic.

CUOMO: And a lot of them are old. So, we know their vulnerable. The question is did the system make them more vulnerable. Do you have questions for the secretary?

DUCKWORTH: I do have questions for the secretary. I want to make sure that all the V.A. facilities are up and able to take care of all of our veterans, but we should be tracking, we should be testing, you know, all of our veterans. We need to make sure that we know who is actually either falling ill or dying as a result of covid-19.

Now, I will tell you I've called all of the V.A. hospitals in Illinois and have great relationships with all of those hospital Directors, but, unfortunately, within the V.A. the problem that we have is when you've gone to one V.A., you've gone to one V.A.

[22:45:07]

They're not consistent across the country and we need to do a better job of that and that's where Secretary Wilkie can certainly step forward and provide some leadership, but he's been awfully quiet during this whole pandemic, unfortunately.

CUOMO: What do you make of that?

DUCKWORTH: Well, you know, I just don't know how -- whether he truly has a handle on things. You know, all right, for example, in the time V.A. has taken care of all of their own folks and has actually taken on some cases from the civilian population as well. That's my V.A. hospital in the Chicago land area.

But I worry that, you know, there are veterans who are in nursing homes who are falling ill and dying and not being counted as veterans who are passing away. And some of them, as you mentioned, are more vulnerable because of Agent Orange. They're older. And, again, don't forget the Iraq and Afghanistan veterans. They have problems with respiratory illnesses already.

CUOMO: And, look, I mean, for me it's just everybody's so quick to say how much we love you guys and how you're the best of us and we owe you so much. It seems like we always fall down in that commitment and it's very frustrating.

Let me ask you something else while I have you. One political question. So, Biden goes on with Charlemagne the god, in my opinion, maybe one of the best names in entertainment. Charlemagne is having a serious conversation with him and Biden says, listen, you don't know who to vote for between me and Trump, you're not black. Now the V.P. says today, I was being too cavalier. I should had been a wise guy. I shouldn't have spoken that way. How big a deal?

DUCKWORTH: Well, look, I think the bigger deal is Donald Trump in the White House, right? And so, let's not have false equivalencies right here. If there is a person that I'm going to trust who has been there for person of color, for minorities, for women, it's been Joe Biden in his entire career. I would rather trust Joe Biden to represent true diversity in the White House than I would Donald Trump any day of the week.

CUOMO: Tailor the response to the minority community. Some of whom believe, you know, Democrats take our votes for granted. And there's a nonchalance in the way he just spoke about us, some of them feel that bespeaks that nonchalance, that they take us for granted and why should they just keep voting for Democrats if there is nothing in it for them specifically for them?

DUCKWORTH: Well, let me tell you what Democrats are doing. Democrats for example, I started the environmental justice coalition in the Senate to make sure that our black and brown communities, which are where we tend to dump our toxic chemicals, are the ones that are going to be best served -- in fact in Illinois, for example, African- Americans are 15 percent of our population yet over 40 percent of our covid-19 positive cases because of health inequities. And we're working very hard to address those issues.

It is Democrats who are out there making sure that we send money to all of our hospitals, including those that are on the front lines. It is Democrats who stand up time and time again to fight for working families, you know, we're the ones who are pushing the heroes act that will provide assistance for people who are essential workers, not just the doctors and nurses who are heroic, but the janitors who are cleaning our hospitals.

The folks who are working on the front lines in our -- you know, at McDonald's supplying my daughter with McNuggets every single day and those working in our grocery stores who are -- never signed up to be on the front lines of a global pandemic, but here they are. It is Democrats watching at our working families all across this country and we are the truly the party of diversity.

And so, if you're going to compare, go right on ahead. Go see that the Democrats and Joe Biden as the person who is going to lead us into victory in November and into the White House will be the party that will be watching out for hardworking Americans no matter what your background. And that we do care about diversity and we always have.

CUOMO: If you care so much, Senator Duckworth, would you consider being V.P. with Joe Biden on the ticket?

DUCKWORTH: Well, I've never said no when my country has called me to serve, but my focus really is on getting Joe Biden into the White House. And whatever that takes I'm willing to do that because our country is in trouble right now with Donald Trump in the White House. He certainly has led us down a path that has left us -- our nation in crisis.

And we desperately need Joe Biden, his leadership and all his years and decades of experience to lead us out and back into the global environment where we can lead the world again and we can take care of Americans and take care of our hardworking families. So, whatever I can do to get Joe Biden into the White House, I'm going to do it.

CUOMO: Well, you know, Dick Durbin said your name is in the mix. And if they're looking for a warrior, I don't know who comes before you. Senator Tammy Duckworth, the best to you and your family. Thank you for your service. Thank you for making time for us tonight.

DUCKWORTH: Thank you for having me on and happy Memorial Day.

CUOMO: Thank you. Be well, Senator. Closing argument next.

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[22:50:00]

CUOMO: I argue it's fitting the weekend that signals our reopening falls on Memorial Day. Time when we remember those who made a sacrifice. Because we seem to have forgotten the message of sacrifice. I use the word on purpose. Sacrifice. They died in devotion to something bigger than themselves. The land of the free. We are their living legacy. We are living their legacy. Our respect is supposed to connect us as the fallen were connected. By common cause. Together as ever as one.

And yet we have a president weaponizing going to church to divide us. Isn't faith about unity and love? Mercy. You're either on the side of the liquor store or the lord. Coming from Trump? Come on. I'm not surprised he missed the point.

The faithful should be the first to be our best this weekend and to be the most conscience because we are thought you are your brother's keeper. To love one another as Jesus loved us. Pandering to the religious on the basis of division and the interest of political advantage is disgusting.

[22:55:04]

Especially as we enter Memorial Day. Let's be honest, look at our connection. Such as it is. It's nothing close to what with honor the price paid by others for what we're taking for granted in the face of desperate times a fight against the virus that is rightly likened to a war.

How does our commitment to the supposed desperation, size up to what we memorialize this weekend? We heroize our healthcare workers nut why should they have to overcome challenges that our leaders, the most mighty government on earth has done so little to knock down or eve prepare for, or even plan to prepare for.

Would we have willingly sent our warriors in worst path in the situation with poor or no equipment? Incomplete intel? Little urgency to improve our understanding? Telling the different branches of service to figure it out for yourself, like we do to states? Would we spend more time denying there was a war than fighting it?

Our president now won't wear a mask by it will take a pill to which ascribes features that the stuff of pure fantasy. Do you remember any other wartime leader doing that? Everyone wants to fight this enemy to keep our family and ourselves safe from harm. And everybody wants to reopen, because that's how we survive.

And that is our victory. We need to honor this Memorial Day by being respectful of the true sacrifice of real warriors. At a time that we are lying about the real need for being warriors today. Thank you for watching. The town hall -- CNN town hall coronavirus facts and fears, next.

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