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Birx Doesn't Answer Question on Hydroxychloroquine Study; Trump Says Houses of Worship Essential; Americans Head into Holiday Weekend Amid Fear, Concerns. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired May 22, 2020 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:30:00]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Let's start with churches. And the other thing I will say is, I was listening to Dr. Birx because, look, she is someone who knows what she's talking about when it comes to public health but I found her answer to be incredibly lacking. Because she said that she had confidence if people had symptoms, they won't go to church.

And I thought, wait a second, you just said you can't tell if someone's infected with coronavirus because so many people are asymptomatic.

She explained how if you ended up symptomatic, you could have been shedding the virus two days before, unbeknownst to yourself because you didn't have the symptoms. And then, if you were asymptomatic, you could be shedding the virus for six, seven days and never know.

By her own measure, what she's talking about going back into churches just doesn't fly.

So, let's talk, Gloria, about why the president is doing this and why he's seen political opportunity in this pandemic.

GLORIA BORGER CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, it's a modelled mask, first of all. He's seeing political opportunity here. He told everyone in April he was going to open up the churches for Easter Sunday, it would be a miracle.

And I think Kayleigh McEnany herself, when asked a question about opening up churches, how can you be sure it's safe, she said, isn't it amazing how many people in this room seem to want to keep those churches closed or something to that effect. And the journalist said, I go to church every Sunday, I object to that.

So, if you're trying to make this into a faith-based plan here versus those who have no faith, that's absurd.

And the second thing, Kayleigh McEnany was trying to make this into First Amendment issue, saying people have the right to worship and support the First Amendment and the president supports the First Amendment. The president called the media the enemy of the people time and time again. And I think the message was completely modelled because when the president said I can override the governors -- as you pointed out, the president cannot override the governors. And then when Kayleigh McEnany was asked about it, she didn't really answer the question.

She said she wants the governors in accordance with the guidelines to open up, that it's safe to open up churches if you follow the guidelines. What does that mean if a governor believes that, because of asymptomatic spread or because churches are too small and can't have the distancing or perhaps don't have the opportunity to do services outside, that this could be an issue.

And lots of governors are opening up churches. There are some governors with high amounts of COVID left more skeptical about it.

This isn't about faith. This isn't about the First Amendment. It is about public health. And it is about trying to keep people safe. And the issues are clear. I just think you can't confuse them.

KEILAR: This is about politics. This is not about public health to be clear.

Elizabeth Cohen, what did you think about this guidance? And what did you think about Dr. Birx, someone who is not a politician, giving credence to this reopening when I have not heard a single public health expert say this is a good idea and that this will not result in people getting sick and dying.

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Brianna, you can't help but admire Dr. Birx when you look at her career and what she's done. That's why I was as stunned as you were when I heard her say, oh, you don't go to church if you don't feel well.

She had just gotten through saying how many people are asymptomatic when they have this disease and they can spread it even when they're asymptomatic.

She had a long explanation about how you can't just look at someone and say, you're healthy. I don't need to social distance. She went into detail about this. And then said people who were sick don't go to church. That's the point. People asymptomatic go to church. And that was stunning to hear her say that.

I'm no theologian but religions value human life, value what God created, which is all of us, so do you really want to put all of us into one place. Even if you do a deep cleaning or don't have a collection plate, even if do all of those things, you are still putting a lot of people into one inside location.

Back in March, there was a church in Arkansas, a husband and wife had COVID, and over the next six days,, 38 percent of the people who went to services at that church contracted COVID. That was before we were doing the measures I just mentioned. But even with those measures, it's still a lot of people in one enclosed space.

KEILAR: People aren't perfect, right? And that's -- there's going to be issues.

I want to bring in Pastor Daren Jaime to talk about this.

[14:35:07]

You are someone who's just been put on Governor Cuomo's interfaith advisory council focused on reopening. You're the pastor -- correct me if I'm wrong -- but I believe it's of AME Zion in Syracuse, New York.

I want to get your take on this.

DAREN JAIME, PASTOR, SAINT FRANCES AME ZION CHURCH: Yes, I mean, when you listen to what the president said, the churches being essential. OK, churches are essential, but our congregants aren't expendable. Make sure the people coming into our houses of worship are given the best possible protection.

To open the doors and say, the churches are open, does not answer the questions in full. How are we going to do this? What are the practices going to be?

And I applaud our governor because we're developing a faith-based, interfaith council talking about developing policies and strategies that we can get there. We believe in progression. But progression must be made with caution.

And Dr. Pritesh Gandhi and a Democratic candidate as well, you were shaking your head during Dr. Brix's comments.

DR. PRITESH GANDHI, ASSOCIATE CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER, PEOPLES' COMMUNITY CLINIC: Look, this was another uninspiring and angry message from a president that has continually denied science and denied public health. And now we hear mixed messaging from Dr. Birx, the president, from the CDC. It's a mess. There are no clear guidelines on how we would do this.

Houses of worship are high-density areas. People are in prolonged contact with each other. How do we open? What procedures do we take? What is the protocol? What's the federal advice on this? There's no credibility left and it's unfortunate.

And frankly, I'm a bit stunned and feel bad to have Dr. Birx go through that press conference knowing full well that very little of what the president says is rooted in science and in public health.

KEILAR: The president made an announcement about churches but did not take a single question and left it to Dr. Birx to take on the tough questions, so there was no dodging it. Although, she certainly did try on some of these.

I want to know, Pastor, are you worried that people are going to flock to churches? Are you worried they're going to think this is OK and maybe not even follow all of the protocols?

JAIME: Well, I think people are pretty sensible in this matter. When you understand what's going on right now, yes, allegedly, the doors are open, but people are going to use their wisdom.

And as people of faith, you know, pastors and rabbis and those in the faith community, yes, we believe in faith. We believe in science. And we also believe in wisdom. And it's not good wisdom to just open up the doors and allow somebody to just come in with no clear plan and no clear strategy and those things have not yet been developed.

Particularly, in my community, in the community that has disproportionately high rates of chronic disease that can be influenced by COVID-19, also, a high asymptomatic group of people.

You allow those persons into a house of worship and just open the doors willy-nilly, you have opened the door to another set of community spread and it sets the clock back rather than taking us forward, which is what we should be doing but not in this manner.

KEILAR: Elizabeth Cohen, I want to talk about another point that was very important in this briefing, and that was about the president taking Hydroxychloroquine. He over and over talked about, what do you have to lose.

We know new studies showing and reinforcing other findings that you're more likely to die if you have coronavirus and you're taking Hydroxychloroquine and the president has been promoting it over and over.

So, Dr. Birx was asked about this. She did not -- she was asked specifically about taking the drug as a preventative measure, and all she stated was that there's a clinical trial looking into that.

And then she seemed to, like, grab on to this toe hold of saying, if you have co-morbidity, if you get coronavirus and these other problems, if you have a loved one having issues, but she did not answer the question.

And I guess the reason in particular that I think that's bothersome to a lot of people is that purchasing of Hydroxychloroquine doubled in March. This is a real problem if people take this stuff.

COHEN: It is a real problem. This study you're referring to, the biggest one released just today. And it found that people who took Hydroxychloroquine or Chloroquine, hospitalized patients, are more likely to die, and between 2.4 and 5 times more likely to have a cardiac arrhythmia. These are serious things.

[14:40:11]

There's the answer to the question Trump's been asking for weeks, why not take it. Why not take it? Because you might die. Why not take it? Because you might develop a cardiac arrhythmia because this study shows an increased risk of that and other studies found that cardiac arrhythmia.

I was also very disappointed with Dr. Brix's answer. She did not answer the question. If we're still studying, why does he take it? You don't take it if it's still being studied. The answer for hospitalized patients, taking it preventively could

make you sicker or even more likely to die. It is still being studied. We don't know the answer. Why would you want to take that risk?

I also thought it was disingenuous to point out these co-morbidities. I felt like she was blaming people. If you have diabetes or heart disease, that makes you more likely to have something go wrong. That's true for practically everything. Having an underlying condition makes you more likely to have complications or to die pretty much in any situation.

So, she didn't point out there were people who went in there perfectly healthy and hook Hydroxychloroquine or Chloroquine and had problems. She was waving a shiny object so no one would pay attention to the real issue that we haven't looked at this as a preventative measure. It might not work and actually be dangerous. We just don't know.

KEILAR: She was waving a shiny object there for sure, Gloria, because if she answers the question truthfully, which any public health expert, any medical journalist, like Elizabeth, will tell you, if she answers the question correctly, the president will be very upset with her.

Dr. Birx has taken a lot throughout this, Gloria, because some people have said she gives the president too much cover. Other people said they're so happy to have Dr. Fauci and Dr. Birx up there because they can kind of manage the situation.

But, at a certain point, where do you draw the line when you are not advising people -- you're not saying don't take this, and they can die.

BORGER: We don't know if she was consulted on whether the president should take this or not. She does work in the White House.

And that leads to the larger question, since we learned in news about the president, which is, what was his level of exposure and how concerned were they to take this extraordinary and unsafe step and potentially unsafe step. So, we don't really know the answer to that question.

On a larger sense though, Brianna, I think this goes to the notion of a president should be modelling for the rest of the country. And so, taking Hydroxychloroquine is not a model that doctors want to see. Not wearing a mask is not a model that doctors want to see, or that Dr. Birx wants to see.

And then the next question I have, really, given churches, is, is the president going to decide that he needs to model somehow by showing up at church this Sunday? I don't --

(CROSSTALK)

KEILAR: I don't know how far he's going to go.

(CROSSTALK) KEILAR: I don't know how far he's going to have to go to find a church because I don't see them opening here in Washington, D.C., right?

Dr. Gandhi --

(CROSSTALK)

BORGER: Well, right. Because Washington has shut down. Washington has shut down.

KEILAR: Yes.

BORGER: That's right.

KEILAR: It's very shut down.

(CROSSTALK)

BORGER: -- anything else.

KEILAR: No, that's -- he certainly has not, Gloria.

Dr. Gandhi, on this issue of Hydroxychloroquine, what did you think about -- I guess, the president not really wanting to take the question, clearly, that's why he didn't take questions, and Dr. Brix's answer.

GANDHI: It was unfortunate. This is a study that spanned 600 hospitals over six continents and had clear outcomes. No, it's not a randomized control trial.

But there's no other study, frankly, that comes even close to demonstrating not only does Hydroxychloroquine not help, it hurts. It hurts patents. It leads to a two-time higher race of heart problem and a 35 percent of increased death for patients that were taking it in the hospital.

But this is in line with this Trump doctrine of act first and think later. The unfortunate side effect of that doctrine is people get hurt. And right now, we don't have the guidance, at the federal or state level. Here in Texas, we're about at 58 percent of the amount of testing we need to do.

What's guidance for houses of worship this weekend? Do they open up? How do they do that? What are the protocols?

[14:45:05]

So, I'm very concerned, as a public health practitioner, as a physician here. And I'm concerned that the president is not just, not only modelling bad behavior but there are real side effects for the patients we treat.

KEILAR: Yes, this is dangerous what the president did today, saying that, at his direction, the CDC, having this guidance for communities of faith, he said, 'Identifying churches, synagogues and mosques as essential places that provide essential services." And that he will override governors who do not open churches.

To be clear, he does not have that authority, but he certainly can undermine them and sow confusion and chaos. And he can maybe threaten to withhold money. We've heard him talk about doing that. But what he's doing here is seeing political opportunity in this pandemic.

And I want to thank you all. Thank you all for your insights. Really appreciate it.

Millions are flocking to beaches, barbecues, even pools for Memorial Day weekend. How to keep yourself and your family safe as more people are venturing outside.

Plus, the CDC reporting just how many people are spreading the coronavirus without experiencing any symptoms. This is why this church announcement is mind boggling. The numbers, they are staggering.

And as cases surge across the south, one major city is out of ICU beds and sounding the alarm that the spread could get, quote, "out of control."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:51:01]

KEILAR: Now to a Memorial Day weekend unlike any before because of the ongoing pandemic. Tens of thousands of vacationers are expected to go to beaches across the country. There will be sand and sea. But will there be social distancing?

CNN's Kyung Lah has been looking into how beach towns have been preparing for the unofficial start to summer.

And, Kyung, what are officials telling you about what they're going to do to keep people safe?

KYUNG LAH, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, what they're saying, at first, Brianna, it is not necessarily safe. They're focus on safer. They understand this is the start of summer and people have been stuck at home and they want to get out.

But what these local officials are watching, what scientists are looking at are the numbers. As they tick closer and closer, the death toll exceeding and expected to exceed soon 100,000.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MAYOR BILL DE BLASIO (D-NY), NEW YORK CITY: Well, we're about to start a very important weekend.

LAH (voice-over): The first summer holiday weekend, a major test of America versus the virus as millions head outside.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It is nice to have the option to at least come to the beach and just have some fun with friends for once. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think it will be very busy and I'm confident

that people are going to want to do this in a safe manner because if things don't work we may go back to a lockdown situation and I don't think anybody wants that.

LAH: Beaches up and down the east coast will be open with enforced social distancing.

RON WILLIAMS, DEPUTY CITY MANAGER, VIRGINIA BEACH: If we don't get voluntarily compliance to a beach ambassador, then they will ask for law enforcement to come and actually enforce the governor's executive orders for the distancing.

LAH: But different rules depending on where you are.

MAYOR DERRICK HENRY (D-FL), DAYTONA BEACH: I don't think it is realistic or practical to ask people to go to the beach and wear a mask.

LAH: While America dives ahead, data shows this week more states are heading in the wrong direction. In the weekly average of new cases, nine states, here in green, are down. And 24 states are steady. And 17 states, in red and orange, are up. And 25,000 new cases in the U.S. added just yesterday.

Among the steepest climbs, Arkansas. The state saw a 65 percent increase in the rate of new cases compared to a week ago. The state still opening water parks and pools today with restrictions.

And in nearby Alabama, crowds packed beaches today, despite warnings that more cases would stress an already stretched Montgomery hospital system where ICU beds run short.

DR. JEANNE MARRAZZO, DIRECTOR, DIVISION OF INFECTIOUS DISEASES, SCHOOL OF MEDICINE UNIVERSITY OF ALABAMA, BIRMINGHAM: I'm quite worried with the Memorial Day weekend coming and the restrictions loosening that this is going to go like a prairie fire. It's been smoldering. We've had a lid on it. But now it really has the potential to get out of control.

LAH: Trying to control a crisis in Navajo nation, home to the highest per capita infection rate in the country, the territory will order a 57-hour lockdown starting tonight.

(CROSSTALK)

LAH: In Texas, bars are open for the holiday weekend.

But in California, far slower movement. Despite improvement in some cities, the first day to order a statewide shutdown is now seeing a rate of new cases at twice what it was at the start of April.

This ominous image at L.A.'s Dodgers Stadium shows the strain on California tourism. These are unused rental cars. So many the empty ballpark lot is now storage.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LAH: You heard the president talk about churches being essential services. That is an issue that has been brewing here in California. We're anticipating to hear, Brianna, from Governor Newsom later today in a press availability.

There's also been 1,200 pastors in California who signed a petition asking that asking in-person services resume on May 31st.

This is certainly coming to a head here in the state -- Brianna?

[14:55:02]

KEILAR: Yes, I knew what you meant, Kyung.

Thank you so much for that great report. Kyung Lah, thank you.

LAH: Thank you.

KEILAR: A gym owner in New Jersey expecting to be arrested today as he defies the governor and reopens.

This, as President Trump claims he'll override governors if they don't open houses of worship now, a power he does not have.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)