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Geoffrey Canada on the Challenges of Remote Learning During COVID-19; Scott Galloway on How the Pandemic Could Disrupt Higher Education; Special Message to Students from First Lady Melania Trump. Aired 12-1a ET
Aired May 23, 2020 - 00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: There's a chance some seasons could be canceled altogether next year.
Many institutions are worried that students will choose not to return. Online learning or reduced services on campus without sports may not be worth a hefty tuition for some.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I definitely think that this is a much lesser experience than what I would be getting if I was on campus.
COOPER: There's no single plan on how to deal with all this, and no clear guidance from the Federal Government on how to move forward with reopening in the fall. So, university heads and local school districts are making their own plans.
MICHAEL HINOJOSA, SUPERINTENDENT, DALLAS INDEPENDENT SCHOOL DISTRICT: We're considering minimizing the number of students that come on certain days, and also staggering the arrivals, and then actually having lunch in the classrooms.
COOPER: Schools around the globe are already trying new approaches.
Look at this classroom in China. The paper hats on these children may seem like an art project, but they have a purpose, to remind kids to stay away from each other. This could be the future in the U.S. as well, come September, or even later.
COOPER: And we want to talk more about that future now with Dr. Tanya Altmann. She will be taking your questions as well.
Dr. Altmann is a Pediatrician, a Spokesperson for the American Academy of Pediatrics, and School Physician and the mother of three school-age boys. She's also helping advice schools in Southern California on their plans to reopen.
So, thanks very much for -- for taking what little -- little time you must have. I'm not sure how you have any time at all, but thanks for joining us.
Dr. Altmann, you've written about how schools are going to need to solve three major problems in the fall to be able to keep kids safe. Can you just quickly explain what you see -- what you see as those problems?
DR. TANYA ALTMANN, PEDIATRICIAN, SPOKESPERSON, AMERICAN ACADEMY OF PEDIATRICS, SCHOOL PHYSICIAN: Sure.
So, the three strategies that schools are going to have to figure out is one, how to keep the virus from entering the campus. So, that's going to be health checks and temperature screenings, staggered arrivals, as you mentioned, and liming visitors on campus.
The second is how to decrease person-to-person transmission on campus, and this is going to be smaller classrooms, less mixing of kids, closed commonly-touched areas, a lot of hand washing with assigned seats, disinfecting, avoiding shared supplies, and also mask use is going to play a key role.
And then the third is the strategies when someone does get sick because we know unfortunately is going to happen, we need to quickly test them, diagnose, isolate, and then contact trace, which is a lot easier when there's fewer kids that they've come into contact with throughout the day.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Let's drill down a little bit on that with some of the viewer questions here. We got a lot of them for you, Dr. Altmann, from kids, parents and teachers.
This is from 8-year-old, Adea, who I think is asking a question that's probably on the mind of every kid in America. Take a -- take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ADEA NDREU, 8-YEAR-OLD: My question is, is it safe to go back to school in the fall?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GUPTA: What do you think, Dr. Altmann?
ALTMANN: So, that's a great question, Adea, and that's what teachers and administrators and pediatricians and health professionals are working on across the country.
It's not going to be the same school day that you're used to. It's going to be a new normal school day, but it will be as safe as we can make it.
COOPER: This next question came in via Twitter from our -- with our hashtag #CNNTownHall. It's at the bottom of the screen. It reads "How are parents to feel safe sending our children with underlying health conditions back to school?"
ALTMANN: So, that's going to be a really important consideration as we know that some kids are more medically fragile. And that's why it's really going to take everybody.
Everybody's going to have to agree that we're going to follow all the same rules that everybody is going to stay physically distanced, that they're going to wear a mask, that they're going to wash hands, and parents are going to have to promise that they will not send sick kids to school.
GUPTA: Yes. They're going to be really diligent about that more -- now more than ever.
This is a question, Doctor, from Fernando, from Illinois, which reads, "Is there a possibility that some kids and teenagers will be asked not to -- to not return to school if someone in their immediate family has tested positive for COVID-19?"
ALTMANN: Definitely, that is a real consideration. And that's why a lot of schools are looking at, you know, in addition to having in- person classes, they're also still going to have to have a form of online or virtual school.
Because kids may be quarantined if one of their parents have COVID, or if they have symptoms, or if they're waiting for test results, or there might be some kids where the parents just don't feel comfortable sending them to school.
ALTMANN: Or the kids have underlying health conditions.
COOPER: Todd, in Texas, sent in this video.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TODD NESLONEY, DIRECTOR OF CULTURE & STRATEGIC LEADERSHIP, TEXAS ELEMENTARY PRINCIPALS AND SUPERVISORS ASSOCIATION: Hello. My question is when will the conversation focus equally on the safety of teachers as it is the students, safety from the virus, but also from losing their job because of getting sick, or fear of passing the virus to compromised family members.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ALTMANN: You're absolutely right, and keeping our teachers and staff healthy, and let's not forget that many of them are older, and may be in the vulnerable population themselves, so having all the kids wear masks, and wash their hands, and the teachers as well.
Some teachers will be wearing face shields, staying a little bit distanced from the students, and all these things that we're talking about, all these safety measures that we're putting in the place are just as important for the teachers as they are for the students.
GUPTA: Yes. And we have to start thinking about these things now for the fall and people identifying potentially as vulnerable as well. [00:05:00]
Judith in North Carolina, Doctor, sent in this video. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUDITH GRIMSHAW, PRE-SCHOOL TEACHER: Hi. My name is Judy Grimshaw, and I have a question. I'm a pre-school teacher.
And I want to know how are they going to open up pre-schools, and toddler rooms, and daycares safely, when kids that young don't understand social distancing, and they really don't understand how not to put things in their mouths.
So, how can we all go back safely? That's my question. Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ALTMANN: And it is more challenging for the youngest children, so we're going to work with small classes, and try to keep those kids with that small group of maybe six to 10 students, because we know we can't totally keep them apart.
We can only do our best. We can also give them each their own toys to play, frequently wash them.
We could make sure that they have their recess time outside separate from other classes on the yard, and then have them, you know, rotate through as they're learning to use the bathroom, so we can fully, you know, disinfect it between classes.
There's a lot of important strategies. But the teachers and administrations are so creative that I'm talking to, and they're coming up with solutions, because we just want to get our kids back to school, so they can learn.
COOPER: There's another video, this from Geoff in Sacramento.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEOFF JONES, PE TEACHER: My question is how to safely teach physical education? And my position, like many PE teachers, I teach every K-5 student during the week.
My concern is about the use of equipment. Am I endangering students who share equipment during a class? For example, can students play catch with a ball? What advice do you have for physical education teachers here in the U.S. and internationally?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ALTMANN: Physical education is such an important component of our school day. And one of the good things is that weather permitting you can do it outside. And we know that just being outside dramatically decreases the risk of transmission. Now maybe instead of playing catch, kids will be doing more soccer,
where they're kicking the ball, because you do want to avoid, you know, touching the same balls and surfaces as other kids.
And again, they should be doing PE class in the same small group of kids that they're already with during their normal school hours. So, keeping the kids in these small groups where they don't mix is also going to help.
You can also do a lot of old-fashioned, you know, calisthenics, and there will be some sports that we will have to reimagine and do in a different way to help decrease the risk of transmission of virus.
GUPTA: Do you think, Doctor, there's going to be some things that just aren't going to be able to happen, choir, for example, things like that where people are singing, or wind instruments, whatever it may be?
ALTMANN: That's a great question.
And we were just discussing doing choir, and wind instruments, outside at my school with the kids in a semicircle. And, of course, that's only weather permitting. But being in Southern California, we're going to use a lot of outdoor space and tents.
But you're right. We can't have kids in a room blowing, you know, on the person standing in front of them.
We also won't be having large assemblies. So, assemblies might be Zoomed into the classroom.
Library time, I picture it being virtual, where maybe the books are just dropped off in the class, and kids won't actually be able to physically go to the library.
GUPTA: We got another question. This one's coming over social media. It's there at the bottom of the screen.
How can students do social distancing when it comes to the school bus?
ALTMANN: So, buses are going to be another area where we're really going to have to take a look. And ideally, we would screen and temperature-check kids before they get on the bus. They're going to have to be spread out.
So, I know, in our area, we're trying to encourage families that don't rely on, and need the bus, to drive their kids to school. But many kids do need the buses, so we may need to have more buses because they will need to spread out.
If they have assigned seats that will also help if we do need to contact trace, and then, again, you know, sanitizing hands, and masks, before you get on the bus.
COOPER: It's going to be difficult. Dr. Altmann, appreciate it.
GUPTA: Thank you.
COOPER: We are joined now truly by three educational all-stars.
Geoffrey Canada is President of the Harlem Children's Zone, which "The New York Times" has called "One of the most ambitious social-policy experiments of our time."
Also Baker High School Science Teacher, and 2020 Montana Teacher of the Year, Linda Rost.
And 2020 Louisiana Teacher of the Year, Chris Dier, a Social Studies Teacher, and the pride of Chalmette High.
Appreciate all of you being -- being with us.
Linda, in addition to being a high school science teacher, I know you're also a mom to three kids. What do you make of what Dr. Altmann just said about returning to the classroom? It just sounds -- I mean there are so many moving parts to this. It's -- it's daunting.
LINDA ROST, 2020 MONTANA TEACHER OF THE YEAR, SCIENCE TEACHER, BAKER HIGH SCHOOL: I think, as a mother of young children, I can really understand the challenges to implementing these strategies for young kids.
So, I think that it's going to be all-hands-on-deck, and we're all going to have to be working together to put some of these strategies to work.
GUPTA: Geoffrey, You know, from Montana to the inner city of New York, how could students socially distance in a classroom, for -- for real, in a safe way? And do you think that some kids just might be afraid to return to school after hearing all this?
GEOFFREY CANADA, PRESIDENT, HARLEM CHILDREN'S ZONE: You know, Sanjay, I'm really worried that we're going to have a mental health epidemic among our children in this country.
Just think about it. The poorest kids, they know people who die, they know people who are sick. The very air you breathe, the people you pass on the street are suddenly dangerous to you. All of that trauma is going to come into our schools, and into our classrooms, and we really need to prepare for this.
I'm so glad that you all are focusing on education because we can't all figure this out one by one by ourselves. We need to get the best practice. We need to start thinking about this.
But just think, I taught for 10 years, and I've gotten my kids together, and I'm -- now, I have to keep all of my kids apart. That's a skill that we have to practice.
And we need time for teachers to begin to practice the kind of monitoring, the talking, the engaging that doesn't really gather kids together in ways that we're used to. So, I think we got to use this summer to have some dry runs, to learn some new skills, and learn some new monitoring, so that we can really keep our children safe.
COOPER: Chris, what about you? The work, life balance, the school, life balance, it's changed for everyone.
What additional responsibilities have your students taken on? And as their teacher, you know, what efforts have you taken to kind of try to bridge the classroom to home gap?
CHRIS DIER, 2020 LOUISIANA TEACHER OF THE YEAR, SOCIAL STUDIES TEACHER, CHALMETTE HIGH SCHOOL: Sure. We've seen so many issues within education that these inequities existed prior to the pandemic. But the pandemic has certainly highlighted them, just as your other teachers here were saying, one being lack of internet.
So, we've -- we've had students who just simply don't have access to internet or have limited internet. I have a student that is one of five, and she has to share one laptop with an entire family, so she can only get on, in certain days.
So, I also have students who are picking up, you know, essential jobs, so a lot of that, a lot of issues students are facing are things that we're not really giving as much weight as they deserve.
I mean we have students that have lost loved ones, and have -- have had family members who have survived from COVID-19, or have lost jobs. So, students are taking a lot on.
And teachers, we're doing everything that we can to try to keep that learning going and keep those -- those connections happening.
GUPTA: You know, I got to say, Linda, as a father of three school-age girls, I was amazed at just how quickly things changed. They had to, right?
GUPTA: All of a sudden, they're all doing remote learning. It was remarkable how fast that happened.
But as, you know, as Chris is pointing out, you do have to have certain things. You have to have a laptop. You have to have the internet. It's not a reality for all students. So, what do you do? I mean, what happens in those situations?
ROST: I think that you have to be really flexible with your students.
I think that -- that is the reality, and that's the world that we're living in. And so, we have to give them grace, and understanding, and be creative about how they can go about their learning.
So, sometimes that might mean a phone call. Instead of doing the lesson, you might do it over the phone. It might be a letter. There might be other ways that we can facilitate learning than using that technology. COOPER: Geoff -- Geoffrey, it's great to see you. I profiled you on 60 Minutes. I'm obviously a huge admirer of you -- of you personally.
In New York City, Mayor de Blasio announced a new grading system, said that more than 200,000 iPads were available to students. I mean that just seems like, you know, that's great. But it does seem like a drop in the bucket just when you think about the enormous challenges for so many kids.
CANADA: This is unprecedented. We've always worried in poor kids about the summer melt, right? The kids are not academically engaged over the summer. They come to school actually behind.
We've thrown another three months on top of that. And then, on top of that, we've thrown teachers, and iPads, with no training, with no best practice, and we're all trying to figure this thing out, I think it's an educational disaster right now.
Plus, you have the issue that was mentioned before. Some kids don't have internet. They don't have the devices. They don't have headphones. There may be only two devices for five kids. That's education malpractice.
We need right now to have every state government, the Federal Government say education, right now, is in crisis, and we need to treat this the same way we're treating the health crisis because, after all, if we care about income inequality, we are seeing it develop right in front of our eyes.
GUPTA: So, what do you do, Geoffrey?
I mean, if you -- when you go on to the governments, what are you specifically asking for, especially if in the fall we find ourselves in a very similar position again?
CANADA: Yes. So, there are a couple of things, by the way, Sanjay, we need to do.
Number one, we've got to make sure every kid has a device. And we've got to make sure internet -- internet is the same as having books today, right?
You can't have some students with no internet connection, and no devices, when we know there's a good chance schools are going to have to close periodically over the course of the next 18 months.
And we need to not cut the budgets of schools because I'm looking at these state and city budgets, and I'm saying, "Wait a second, at the moment, we need to be thinking about how to get more space, get more room to have classes, and so we can social distance, we can't be cutting budgets and teachers and not investing in our young people."
And I just feel this coming right now that people are going to say "We can't afford to actually provide the education supports necessary in this country," particularly in the poorest communities.
And that's something that we're going to have to fight to stop from happening. We need additional investments.
And while we're throwing trillions of dollars, in lots of places, we need to make sure we're investing in education, so these great educators on this show that they really have a fair chance to educate the kids during this pandemic.
COOPER: Chris, what's your greatest fear come the fall?
DIER: Well, first off, I wholeheartedly agree with Mr. Canada. This is -- we need more funding for education to address these concerns, these inequities, and these mental health concerns.
But my biggest fear is that these gaps that -- that are accruing at the moment that they're going to continue to, to get larger, and students are going to come back in the fall, and they're not going to be on an equal footing.
And, many times, they're already not on an equal footing because we see these inequities in education. But I think that gap is going to be even bigger.
So students, they're going to need, you know, social and emotional learning, just as much as academic learning. They're going to need the help of mentors, of counselors, of social workers. So, it really is all-hands-on-deck when fall comes around.
GUPTA: And Linda, you're a Science Teacher, which is near and dear to my heart for sure.
Are there things that you're doing in particular with the classroom around the COVID pandemic in terms of science? Are you trying to use that as a teaching tool?
ROST: Yes, I absolutely am. I think, right away, my students had a lot of fears, and they were confused about what was happening. And so, I took that opportunity to replace their fears with facts.
And, right at the beginning, I explained to them what was happening. I explained about the virus, and how the pandemic was affecting us, and how to understand how our behaviors can influence that.
And then, I also -- I wasn't really sure how to approach their learning, when it came to the virus. So, I asked them for their help in showing me how to -- how to facilitate their learning.
And they wanted to do open-ended COVID projects. So, they got to pick the topic. They got to pick how they showed their learning, and how they kind of showcased that, and shared it with the world.
And I had students doing projects, some of them were looking at the economic effects of the pandemic, or insurance policies, and how that would influence peoples' treatment.
I had one student who looked at how we could facilitate social distancing in different high school rodeo events.
And then, I also had another one, who's looking at Coronavirus in cattle, and she wanted to be able to see whether the vaccine that was used for that Coronavirus would be effective against COVID to show that it would.
So, it was really amazing to see how -- how they led their learning around this virus, and they were able to understand the pandemic better through that.
GUPTA: You know, I'm curious, Anderson asked Chris about, you know, what he's most worried about. What are you most worried about?
And I guess, I would also add to that, again, as a father of three kids, how much different or how much -- how would you quantify the quality of this sort of teaching, learning that my kids have been going through the last few months as compared to last year at this time?
ROST: Oh, OK. I absolutely can speak to that.
So, I think, number one, we probably would see that we're maybe serving 50 percent or 60 percent of our students at a basic level. And then there's probably 40 percent or 50 percent of our students who are falling through the cracks, and we're losing a proportion of that also.
And so, I think we need to look at that, too, and how we can serve that half better.
And I also think that I can actually measure, in my -- in my own classroom, that I'm doing online now, how much they're learning about the concepts that we're learning about through COVID compared to last year.
And I can see that there's a drop in their understanding. And some students understand it well regardless. It doesn't matter what method we use. But there are really others that we're losing, and I'm really concerned about that.
COOPER: Also just finally, Geoffrey, you know, you talked about this coming, you know, wave of emotion and mental health issues. This is coming at a time when a lot of kids, their families have been decimated in ways that these kids have never seen.
Their families are out of work. You know, so many people are out of work right now. The idea of, you know, a family being able to get an extra computer or get any computer, it's just not realistic.
CANADA: No, it's not realistic. And, Anderson, you've really sort of set the table for what's happening in so many of our poorest communities.
The parents are traumatized. They've lost their jobs. They don't know how they're going to pay their rent. They can't buy the medications.
They're worried about their mothers and fathers who live in the next room, and are 75-years-old and 80-years-old, and all the while they're terrified that their children are not focused, their children are not paying attention. They don't want to go on the devices.
So, you've got people right now, families that are traumatized. And the safest place for children is the school.
And we've got to figure out a way we can open our schools safely, keep them safe, make sure that we learn best practice from all around the world about how you can engage students because as much as I love technology, and we need to have it, you cannot replace the interaction between a student and a teacher.
All of us have teachers that we just loved, because we felt their love for us and their passion for the students in their classroom. That's hard to come over by video or using technology.
So, we've got to figure out how to do this, and we got to figure out how to do it smart, and we need the resources to get it done.
And, Anderson, I've been waiting to say this to you for many, many years, happy early Father's Day. I'm so excited about that.
COOPER: Thank you. Thank you.
CANADA: To you too, Sanjay. But I needed to get Anderson first.
GUPTA: Thank you, Sir.
COOPER: Yes. Well I can't believe that that suddenly applies to me. It's astonishing me every day. Thank you guys, everybody so much for -- for what you do, not just for what you're doing right now, but for what you've always done.
COOPER: It's extraordinary, thank you.
GUPTA: Thank you.
ROST: Thank you.
COOPER: Coming up next, we'll talk to the President of Notre Dame University on plans to bring students back to campus this fall, and the questions he's getting about how to ensure college kids' safety on campus.
Also later, first lady Melania Trump's message to students, and her advice to them, on getting through the coming weeks.
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I'm Fred Pleitgen in Denmark, and this country is rapidly reopening its schools.
Now, one of the things that you don't see in Danish schools is students or teachers wearing masks. It's something that the Danes don't believe in. But you do see a lot of hand sanitizing and lot of hand washing.
This school, for instance, has these basins here, so children can wash their hands at any point in time. Also, there's a lot of taped-off areas to make sure that kids don't get too close to each other and keep that physical distance.
Now, this school, in particular, is a really interesting one. Because of the physical distancing measures, they didn't have enough space for all the students to come back, so they actually moved some of their lessons into the local church.
So the math lessons, from the church, with the teacher standing in the pulpit. And they even do some of the lessons, for statistics, in the local church graveyard, because there are a lot of numbers on all those headstones.
And the Danish government actually encourages that. They say schools should do as many lessons as possible outside.
COOPER: CNN's Fred Pleitgen in Copenhagen.
We're going to be showing you those type of dispatches, from around the world, throughout this hour to show how other countries are managing this, and how things could look in the United States come the fall.
For now, here at home, The Chronicle of Higher Education surveyed more than 700 schools on their plans, and 67 percent, more than two out of three said they are working toward in-person instruction.
Now, this week, Notre Dame University announced a plan to reopen campus for a truncated term this fall. Sanjay and I spoke with the University President, Father John Jenkins, earlier.
COOPER: Father Jenkins, to the parent of a Notre Dame student who asks, you know, how are you going to keep my son or my daughter safe this fall, what do you say?
REV. JOHN JENKINS, PRESIDENT, UNIVERSITY OF NOTRE DAME: You know, we're going to do everything we can, and we believe, consulting with the very best medical advice, and working over the next three months, to get all the details right. We can keep your son or daughter safe here on campus. We would not
make that decision if we were not confident about that. We value the on-campus experience deeply. We care about the education these students receive.
So, I think those two combined led us to this decision. And, as I say, the safety of these young men and women are our highest priority.
GUPTA: Father, you know, everyone talks about testing. Testing is going to be necessary. It's going to be a major component from what I've read of your plan.
Do you have the capacity to test, you know, the student body? We're talking more than 12,000 people, obviously, faculty as well. Is that a -- is that a realistic, at this point, objective goal?
JENKINS: Let me tell you, Sanjay, if we don't have testing capacity, we won't open, you know, again, because that's a critical component. Everyone we've spoken to has given us confidence that we will.
As you well know the testing -- test availability is ramping up, and ramping up rapidly. I believe we'll be there by the time we welcome students back. Again, if we can't do that, that's a critical component to success, we won't open. But I believe we will be there.
COOPER: And, as you know, a lot of, you know, educational institutions, colleges, secondary schools, you know, lower schools, as businesses, are trying to figure out how to make this work, so a lot are looking at your plan.
If a student tests positive, what happens then?
JENKINS: We have space for isolating that student, who's positive, and quarantining those with whom that student has become -- come in close contact with. So, that's critical part two.
We have to be able to isolate those -- those who have contracted the virus. And so, we have the -- we have to identify those facilities, and we have that in place.
GUPTA: You know, people are going to hear this.
Obviously, people -- there may be some people who are just concerned. Either they have a pre-existing condition or, for faculty members, who -- who are vulnerable because of their age, how are you going to handle that?
Do they -- do they have to return? Can they opt out? What is their status going to be?
JENKINS: Well certainly those who have, you know, a vulnerable status, we have to look at those, and allow them to teach in different ways. I believe we can structure the classroom and structure the interaction. So, faculty will be kept pretty safe. I think that's -- that's not as challenging.
I worry, to be honest with you I worry more about the students because they -- it's very hard to keep them distanced from one another. You know undergraduates.
But faculty and students, to provide the classroom that can keep them distanced, and, you know, if it's necessary, to conduct office hours by Zoom or whatever, we can do that.
So, we haven't worked out the details. But we will keep the faculty safe. And if people have conditions that prevent them, certainly that will be something we'll take into consideration.
COOPER: You've instructed students and teachers to prepare for the possibility of, I'm quoting, unexpected severe new outbreak of COVID- 19, said could -- that it could mean a return to remote learning.
And I know you've said that the odds are you will have positive cases on campus. Obviously, we hope that doesn't happen.
What of -- I mean, is there an event that would trigger an actual shutdown of campus? I mean I guess if the spread continued, if there was a widespread outbreak, you would -- what would happen?
JENKINS: Yes. We -- that's what we'd have to -- we'd have to. If it were widespread, if the official -- the health officials in the region said "You have to shut down," we have to shut down. And what we've done is provide a way in which we could move quickly online. Now, obviously, there is sort of all sorts of gradeiations here. And
if it's -- if it's single students, if it's 10 students, that's not a shutdown. If it's extensive, if it's in the community, that's a different story.
And I will tell you. We have to work out. And we're in the process of working out what is the threshold for making that call, and we don't do it alone. We do it in conversation with health officials and with medical experts. So, we'll get there by that time.
But we need to recognize that this is our goal. But if certain things occur, we may have to go to contingency plan.
GUPTA: We talked to Magic Johnson a couple weeks ago. We talked to the Commissioner of the MLB.
Athletics is on everyone's mind and you can't help but think of Notre Dame and think of athletics, especially me as a Michigan guy, if you know what I mean, Father.
But that does -- that does present a whole additional set of challenges, right? I mean limiting the spread of COVID-19 among athletes in that environment, what do you think? Academics, you've addressed. What about athletics?
JENKINS: Well, our first priority is the education of our students. So, that's what we focus on so far. But, you know, about athletics, it's something where we certainly thought about, and will think about more. Two things.
I mean one is the actual game and the participants. And that's in itself is a challenge, but it's a more contained challenge. Limited number of people, testing we can -- we could do that. As you know, Major League Baseball is going to play without fans. That's a more manageable thing.
So, the next question is well what about people in the stadium? And that's a -- that's a more difficult question, right, because so many people from so many places. So, that's something we're going to grapple with in every school, and indeed, every Sports League in America is going to grapple with that.
I don't have the answers yet. Perhaps -- perhaps some spacing in the stadium, if we go ahead, would be possible. But I'd be speculating at this point. We just have to see what is possible.
Our first priority is to get those kids in the classroom. But then, when we have clarity on that, we'll talk about the athletics.
COOPER: Well Father John Jenkins, we wish you the best in this. Thank you so much.
JENKINS: Really enjoyed it. Thank -- thanks to both of you.
COOPER: Let's look further now into the future of higher learning, and how this pandemic could be pushing it there.
Our next guest teaches marketing at New York University Stern School of Business. He recently told New York Magazine that a reckoning is coming for colleges and universities in just a matter of weeks. He's Professor Scott Galloway. He joins us now.
Professor Galloway, what do you think the future of higher education is, where you talk about this reckoning, what do you mean?
SCOTT GALLOWAY, CLINICAL PROFESSOR OF MARKETING, NYU STERN SCHOOL OF BUSINESS, AUTHOR, "THE FOUR" AND "THE ALGEBRA OF HAPPINESS," CO-HOST, PIVOT PODCAST: Well we have raised tuition rates 1,400 percent in the last 40 years.
This is a time of year that's supposed to be a nervous but a rewarding time of year, where people figure out where they're going to school. And instead, it's become a time of year, where people try to imagine how they're going to take several hundred thousand dollars on in household debt.
So, I think that, you know, we have raised -- when I say "We," I mean academic community, we've raised prices faster than healthcare. And at the same time, the underlying innovation, if you walked into a class today, it wouldn't look, smell, or feel much different than it did 40 years ago.
So, I think we've kind of stuck out the mother of all chins and the fist of COVID-19 is coming for us. I think this involves huge disruption, and I think it starts this fall.
GUPTA: So, you think this reckoning was coming anyway, Professor? I mean, the pandemic just sort of pushed it over the edge?
GALLOWAY: Yes, if you think about it, COVID-19 is more of an accelerant than a change agent.
And when you -- I went to UCLA and Berkeley on a total of $7,000 in tuition for undergraduate and graduate.
And now you're looking at students who have taken on more debt and credit card debt, which results in household formation later, much more risk aggressive -- much more risk-averse in terms of the businesses they start, and families really suffering.
This has been long overdue. There's a collective statement across America amongst parents watching their kids on Zoom going, "This is what I've been paying for?"
So, you have -- think of another product that charges over $100,000 that gets 90-plus points of gross margin other than a pharmaceutical for a rare cancer.
There's no product in the world, not Hermes, not Ferrari, not Apple, that gets these sorts of extraordinary margins for a product that largely hasn't changed in five decades. So, quite frankly, we have this coming.
COOPER: Do you think -- do you think some colleges realizing this, or fearing this, is -- that's one of the pushes that they want to get kids back on campus because they feel like the longer, you know, it's remote learning, or online, more and more people are going to say "What are we paying for?"
GALLOWAY: 100 percent. Just as stock market analysts are looking at companies that have the most cash on their balance sheet, we're going to look at universities.
And the ones that have large tuitions, Tier 2 brands, and their primary value-add was getting your kid out of the house for four years to kind of marinate. When that experience goes away, you're going to see demand destruction like you've never seen.
You're going to see the top-tier schools go into their waiting lists. They'll be fine. They'll clear the waiting list.
There's never been a better time to be on a waiting list of a Tier 1 school, which will force the Tier 2 schools to go much deeper into their waiting list. And then the Tier 3 schools, Anderson, are going to reach into their waiting list, which they don't have.
Of the 2,800 schools, the median endowment is $7 million, meaning a lot of these schools, if 20 percent or 30 percent of the students don't show up, which the surveys say they're planning not to do in fall, we could see 20 percent to 40 percent of universities start a death march similar to what department stores have done.
Second tier universities are to education what department stores are to retail, and that is they're about to begin a death march.
GUPTA: This is provocative stuff.
GUPTA: And one of the things, Professor Galloway, you've also wrote about, you said that you think big universities are going to partner with Big Tech companies, I guess, like Google or Apple, whoever, to help them expand, not because they have to necessarily, because they think that there's an opportunity, I guess, these tech companies do.
Is that right?
GALLOWAY: 100 percent. If you're Apple, or Amazon, or Google, you have this implicit agreement with the marketplace that your stock is going to double in five years, otherwise people will buy stock in Netflix or Salesforce.
And in order to do that, Apple has to increase their topline revenue by about $150 billion over the next five years, which limits the number of industries.
They have to go big-game hunting, and that literally limits them to government, defense, the auto industry, which is a low-margin business, and they will immediately zero-in onto, as they already are, healthcare and education.
So, Big Tech is about to come into education, not because they want to, but because they have to.
And the benefit to universities will be that if you're able to use Small Tech and Big Tech to effectively take 50 percent of your classes offline, that is effectively doubling the size of your campus.
So, you're going to see a lot of universities leverage their brand, leverage their great leadership, such as Reverend Jenkins, and use technology to effectively double their capacity of their schools, which will let them lower their prices, increase their gross margin dollars.
And this will have a hugely disruptive impact, again, on the culling of the herd, the culling of the Tier 3 universities.
COOPER: So, that's the -- the cost to college, I mean, do you think colleges then are going to lower their costs? And if you do, what do you see as the trigger to them doing that? Just -- just suddenly, they all have to start doing that?
GALLOWAY: Well, it depends on who we're talking about.
So, let's look at the Ivys, which are more spectacle than historic. Only 64,000 students enrolled undergraduate at all eight Ivy League colleges, a half a percent of the 11 million kids at colleges across America.
They're luxury brands. They're Hermes. Their benefit comes from artificial scarcity.
They brag that they turn away 90 percent of their applicants, which in my view, is tantamount to the Head of a housing shelter bragging that he or she turned away 90 percent of applicants last night.
They are no longer in the business of public service. They're in the business of finishing school for rich people, and some incredibly remarkable middle and lower income people. They will largely or most likely maintain their pricing power and double down on their exclusivity.
The tier -- the big public schools, where two-thirds of kids are now enrolled, are likely, in my opinion, going to hold onto the script.
The University of California, Berkeley will graduate more kids from low-income households this year than the entire Ivy League. And they will use technologies and opportunity to expand their seats at a lower cost.
That will put cost pressure on the entire system. A lot of people are starting to do trade-offs around what is the certification and the education and a diminished experience worth.
And this, like any other industry, is going to go through certain cost pressures. Name an industry that hasn't had to cut costs the last 40 years, and there's one, education.
So, I think, at the very top, Anderson, they continue to be Hermes. They continue to have artificial scarcity. But everywhere else, you're going to see a destruction in pricing power.
The companies that can expand their -- their margin dollars by larger volume will do so, which will create an enormous sucking, sound, and disruption, and chaos, at the bottom half of universities.
COOPER: This is the most interesting like five minutes I've had in a long time, and I wish this could go on longer.
GALLOWAY: Go on, Anderson. Go on.
COOPER: I would -- I would like to take your class. I know maybe that's the wrong message to leave this with. It's apparently it's all over--
GALLOWAY: Well for $7,000, if you get into NYU, you can take my class.
GUPTA: This could be a lot cheaper.
COOPER: Professor Scott Galloway, really fascinating. I want to read more of what you write.
GALLOWAY: Thank you.
COOPER: Because I just think it's -- it's a really -- it's opening my mind in a lot of ways. Thank you. I appreciate it.
GUPTA: Thank you, Sir.
COOPER: Yes. Up next, we want to take a look also the psychological impact from the virus on K-12 students, and the best ways that educators and parents can prepare children for their return back to school.
First though, a report from our Paula Hancocks on students in South Korea, which has begun reopening schools.
PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I'm Paula Hancocks in Seoul.
High school seniors have gone back to school this Wednesday across South Korea. And it really feels like a milestone in the country's fight against Coronavirus.
Now, there were temperature checks at the front gate. There was hand sanitizer. There was social distancing in the classrooms, and also in the cafeteria. The desks, for example, in the classrooms had to be at least a meter apart.
And here, in the cafeteria, you can see that every other seat has been blocked out, and you have these plastic partitions in between, to prevent any contamination. This is the one place on campus where students and teachers are allowed to take their masks off.
Now, there have been some first-day issues. Dozens of schools in a City just West of Seoul had to close down after two students were found positive Wednesday morning.
COOPER: This is CNN's Global Town Hall. We're focusing on education tonight. Kids in this country will eventually return to school.
GUPTA: But for now, they are still learning at home. So, what health and psychological concerns are there for students, educators and parents alike?
Joining us now, John Kelly. He's a School Psychologist here on Long Island, New York, and an Adjunct Professor at St. John's University in the Psychology Program.
And also Angela Duckworth, a Psychology Professor at the University of Pennsylvania, and Author of "Grit," fantastic book on "The Power of Passion and Perseverance."
COOPER: I love "Grit." It's a great -- it is a great book.
One of the most persistent, Angela, factors in everyone's lives right now is uncertainty, scaring off, obviously, for adults to grapple with. How do you help kids navigate that?
ANGELA DUCKWORTH, AUTHOR, "GRIT," PSYCHOLOGY PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA: The first thing kids should know about uncertainty is the same thing their parents should know, which is that all animals, including human beings, hate uncertainty.
It's a really, really uncomfortable psychological state. And that's probably some kind of survival response that we don't like not knowing what's going to happen to us, especially when we think the future might be dark.
And I think some of the most important research on this was done on animals, where when an animal is expecting something bad to happen, but it doesn't have any way to predict or control that, that's when the animal really suffers. It actually shows symptoms of depression and so forth.
If you had first acknowledged that anxiety and not knowing the future are supposed to happen to you, under circumstances like this, I think that as a great first step. And then, you could start to deal with, you know, how do I actually manage this feeling?
But the first thing is to, I think, acknowledge it, and normalize it.
GUPTA: Do you think, John, do you think that this -- this sort of disruption is going to be long-lasting in terms of the impact?
Or, you know, Angela wrote a book about Grit. I mean, is this going to build resilience in kids? How do you think this sort of plays out for school-age kids?
JOHN KELLY, SCHOOL PSYCHOLOGIST, ADJUNCT PROFESSOR, ST. JOHN'S UNIVERSITY: You know, it's a really interesting scenario, Sanjay, because I think that what we know about crisis events is that, quite honestly, it affects kids in very different ways.
There are multiple factors that come into play that really help to predict how one child might react versus another.
So, for the majority of kids, they will come through this, and they will be OK. There may be some short-term issues that that we need to help them through, and kind of get them back on track.
But we do know that there's another subset of children and adolescents, who maybe have some particular vulnerabilities, some challenges that they have been facing. And we'll need to address those issues maybe a little bit longer-term.
COOPER: So Angela, a high school senior from New Jersey sent in this video. Let's take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANALEY ESCALERA, HIGH SCHOOL SENIOR: I'm Analey Escalera, a student attending Ewing High School. And due to COVID-19, I was unable to attend graduation, prom, as well as celebrate my birthday. This led to severe depression and many unanswered questions.
One of these questions being, where do I go from now? I wanted to attend college, and I wanted the full college experience, and now that's not a possibility. So, my main question now is when will all of this be over, and will I be able to attend college?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DUCKWORTH: Well, I can't say when it'll be over. I wish I could. It's that, you know, that's what I was talking about, you know, hating to not know. I do have this suggestion.
And, by the way, I've got an 18-year-old and a 17-year-old at home. The 17-year-old missed her birthday. The 18-year-old is missing her graduation. They're both missing the prom.
So, I have a little bit of experience with this. At least, I can -- I see what my own daughters are going through.
And after you acknowledge that the stress response, anxiety, not liking uncertainty that these are completely normal human feelings, in some ways you should be worried, if you're not experiencing those things.
I think the next thing you have to do is put things into perspective, right? Now, missing the prom is terrible. Missing graduation is pretty horrible too, maybe not experiencing a freshman year in college, as you expected.
But when I say "Put things in perspective," just use your imagination. What things do people experience in the world today even, not to mention in the past, in history, that could be worse than those things?
And I think when you start to just name them, right, when you think about World War II, when you think about maybe poverty that's happening, you know, right here in this country, and that you may be blessed not to be experiencing, I do think that normalizing the stress response is great.
But also putting things in perspective will help you not, you know, fall into a ruminative spiral that does lead to depression. GUPTA: Yes, it's a good point.
We have another question. John, this one's for you, from Ross, which reads, "Do you think there will be a major regression with most children's education and what they learned the first half of the school year?"
I think about this all the time, John. Again, I have three school-aged children. What do you think about that?
KELLY: There's no doubt that there's been a major disruption to kids' education. And, you know, I loved your teacher panel before, where you heard, and you saw the innovation, the quick changes that, you know, our teachers have had to make.
But, you know, schools in general are set up to support children, even when we are not physically together. And so, anything that we can do now will help to mitigate the impact later on. You know, we're talking about reopening schools, and setting up different strategies, and systems of support.
But the key is yes, what we're doing now, but also making sure we're prepared to support students when we do reopen.
COOPER: Angela, this is a question sent in by Rebecca in North Bergen, New Jersey.
And it says "My 10-year-old daughter has been very emotional. She turned 10, has unable to see her grandmother and father. Her father is an essential worker in New York, Security, which has not been recognized.
On April 4th, we celebrated her birthday alone, he dropped off grifts, sang for her, standing outside as she watched out the window, however, all she wanted was a hug. I've been unable to uplift her spirits. What do you suggest?"
You are getting the tough questions.
DUCKWORTH: That's a tough one.
COOPER: You are a getting a lot of tough questions, Angela.
DUCKWORTH: Yes, particularly hard ones.
COOPER: I'm sorry.
DUCKWORTH: No, that's all right.
You know, I feel like every parent right now is feeling like "Wow, why am I getting all the tough questions or the hard scenarios." It's kind of happening to all of us.
You know, I will say -- let me share something that I told my own students, who are much older than 10. You know, these are actually undergraduates at the kind of "Hermes" University that your last guest, Scott, was just talking about.
But maybe this will help even a 10-year-old. I said, you know, you're experiencing history like this is not going to be a sentence or a footnote in the history books.
You're living through at least a paragraph, a full page, or maybe a chapter in history. And it's happening to everyone. And it's hard. But, you know, kind of understanding that -- that we are at a historic moment.
And I added this. And it certainly helped my students. It may help this 10-year-old.
You know, you can't control what's going to happen. You can't predict everything that's going to happen at least, but you can control your response to it.
And you probably want to think, you know, "When I grow up, I'd like to look back, at this chapter in history, and when I tell my grandchildren about it, I'd love to tell them that I did my best, and I managed it with a little bit of humor, some grace, some generosity."
And I think, at least for my own students, again, older than 10-years- old, I think that help them think about how to be their best self even when the world is not what they want it to be.
COOPER: Also just knowing that you -- you can survive something like this, and get through it, and come out on the other side, I know, as a young person, surviving things that seems so overwhelming that I didn't think I could was actually very helpful to me kind of long- term, though hard in the moment to see it that way.
John Kelly, thank you.
COOPER: Sorry, go ahead, Angela.
DUCKWORTH: Well I just wanted to say, Anderson, your book came out the same day as mine. And I -- I've read it. And yes, so -- yes, it's much of what you've also written about.
COOPER: Yes. Yes. Well that's right. I think I loved your book so much, "Grit."
John Kelly, thank you, Angela Duckworth, great to have you on.
GUPTA: Thank you both.
KELLY: Thank you.
COOPER: We want to thank you for all you do, frankly, not just for tonight.
Ahead, a special message, you'll only see on this Town Hall, from first lady Melania Trump to students.
COOPER: This is CNN's Global Town Hall.
And often, at the end of these Town Halls, we like to tell you about inspiring stories and deeds, people who've triumphed over the disease, or helped their community, or have a powerful message for the rest of America, something that will leave you with the feeling of hope.
GUPTA: And tonight, that message comes from the White House itself from first lady Melania Trump, who wanted to share this message with students, who's worlds have been turned upside down by this virus.
MELANIA TRUMP, FIRST LADY OF THE UNITED STATES: Hello, students. I want to send my greetings and well wishes to all of you this evening.
Over the past two months, I know you have had to make many changes in your life.
Many of you had to attend classes in your homes and haven't been able to see your friends. Many of you, you were looking forward to your prom, spring sports, and graduation.
These changes were not easy, but you have been so strong. And I am proud of the examples you have become.
Your determination to get through this will define your generation for years to come. So, thank you for helping your families, your friends, your communities, and our country to stay healthy and safe during these unusual times.
Thank you for keeping up your studies and learning in new ways. As we navigate the days and weeks ahead, take care of yourself. Use this time to read the book you've been meaning to read. Practice your favorite sport or learn a new one and help out at home.
Be sure to stay in touch with friends and family, and make sure you're being your best self. These are important and healthy habits that we can all easily practice.