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Trump Demands Governors Reopen Churches; New Cases in Past Week Up in at Least 17 U.S. States; WHO Slams COVID-19 Misinformation; Worst Week for Mexico; Spain to Further Ease Restrictions; Italian Nursing Homes Devastated by Virus; China Sends Message of Control at Annual Meeting; Counting the Costs of Coronavirus; Remembering the Fallen. Aired 3-4a ET

Aired May 23, 2020 - 03:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


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MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Hello, everyone, and welcome to Studio 7 here at CNN Center in Atlanta. I am Michael Holmes.

Coming up here, on CNN NEWSROOM, states across the nation are gearing up for the next phase of reopening. What's changing and how to keep yourself safe.

Just a few days ago, Donald Trump said he was taking it daily. Hear what one new study says about the risks of hydroxychloroquine.

And China's latest moves are adding pressure to the already testy relationship with the U.S. I'll speak to an expert about where we can go from here.

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HOLMES: Welcome, everyone.

The patchwork of relaxed rules and restrictions across the U.S. is about to be put to the test as many Americans are expected to venture out for Memorial Day. That holiday weekend coming as the number of confirmed deaths in the U.S. grows ever closer to 100,000.

There are fears that Memorial Day crowds could abandon social distancing as they pack recently reopened beaches. More people could also return to church pews this weekend after President Trump demanded that houses of worship be allowed to reopen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I call upon governors to allow our churches and places of worship to open right now. If there's any question, they're going to have to call me but they're not going to be successful in that call.

(END VIDEO CLIP) HOLMES: The decision, ultimately, up to each governor, despite Mr. Trump's claim that he can override them. Some faith organizations are welcoming the president's call. Others, though, say reopening now flies in the face of medical and scientific advice.

So as the nation with the most-reported cases and deaths in the pandemic ready as the summer unofficially begins?

CNN's Kyung Lah takes a look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MAYOR BILL DE BLASIO (D-NY), NEW YORK CITY: Well, we're about to start a very important weekend.

KYUNG LAH, CNN SENIOR U.S. CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The first summer holiday weekend, a major test of America versus the virus as millions head outside.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It is nice to have the option to at least come to the beach and just have some fun with friends for once. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think it will be very busy and I'm confident

that people are going to want to do this in a safe manner because if things don't work we may go back to a lockdown situation and I don't think anybody wants that.

LAH: Beaches up and down the East Coast will be open with enforced social distancing.

RON WILLIAMS, DEPUTY CITY MANAGER, VIRGINIA BEACH: If we don't get voluntarily compliance to a beach ambassador, then they will ask for law enforcement to come and actually enforce the governor's executive orders for the distancing.

LAH: But different rules depending on where you are.

MAYOR DERRICK HENRY (D-FL), DAYTONA BEACH: I don't think it is realistic or practical to ask people to go to the beach and wear a mask.

LAH: While America dives ahead, data shows this week more states are heading in the wrong direction. In the weekly average of new cases, nine states, here in green, are down. And 24 states are steady. And 17 states, in red and orange, are up. And 25,000 new cases in the U.S. added just yesterday.

Among the steepest climbs, Arkansas. The state saw a 65 percent increase in the rate of new cases compared to a week ago. The state still opening water parks and pools today with restrictions.

And in nearby Alabama, crowds packed beaches today, despite warnings that more cases would stress an already stretched Montgomery hospital system where ICU beds run short.

DR. JEANNE MARRAZZO, DIRECTOR, DIVISION OF INFECTIOUS DISEASES, SCHOOL OF MEDICINE UNIVERSITY OF ALABAMA, BIRMINGHAM: I'm quite worried with the Memorial Day weekend coming and the restrictions loosening that this is going to go like a prairie fire. It's been smoldering. We've had a lid on it. But now it really has the potential to get out of control.

LAH: Dr. Deborah Birx says the White House Coronavirus Task Force is still trying to understand why some cities continue to see spikes, despite social distancing orders.

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DR. DEBORAH BIRX, WHITE HOUSE CORONAVIRUS RESPONSE COORDINATOR: Even though Washington has remain closed, L.A. has remain closed, Chicago has remain closed, we still see these ongoing cases.

LAH: And this is something to keep in mind, as you figure out and plan where to put your beach towel, as you decide where you're going to sit at the bar, this warning from epidemiologists is that, if the trends keep going in this country the way that they are as of right now, the estimate is that the United States will exceed 100,000 deaths at some point this Memorial Day weekend -- Kyung Lah, CNN, Los Angeles.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HOLMES: And joining me now, Dr. Muhammad Munir. He is a virologist at Lancaster University in the U.K.

Good to see you. I just wanted to start with the president declaring places of worship essential services, wanting churches up and running. You had Dr. Birx even saying, you know, don't -- don't go if you're sick but at the same time, pointing out asymptomatic spread.

Already seen in the U.S., churches turning out to become hotspots.

How risky is the president's declaration, even saying he would override governors?

DR. MUHAMMAD MUNIR, LANCASTER UNIVERSITY: Thank you, very much, Michael, for having me on the show. I think the important thing to understand here is that, according to several studies, 80 percent to 90 percent people are still uninfected.

And any change in social behavior means the virus would have a chance to spread. And this is particularly important for understanding in the worship places, where segregation and congregation is fully high and (INAUDIBLE) are frequent. And usually in closed confinement where the virus would have lot more chances to sustain and would be able to infect the people. So I think --

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HOLMES: Sorry, carry on.

MUNIR: -- I think it's also important to mention that lack of clarity has been one of the major issues, in many nations where the virus has been spreading. For example, if there are different rules, this would be certainly confusion within the country that lead to lot more of opening up and that would create some issues as well.

HOLMES: Did you fear that, you know, when you hear the president say open the churches and then you see that there are hotspots in churches, there's a lot of concern about asymptomatic spread, do you -- do you fear that politics is overriding science in some ways?

MUNIR: Certainly. I think, particularly, in America, we have seen very controversial statements from politicians and that is not really backed up by the -- by the science and the evidences.

And these are really a lot more damaging than the virus itself because what we have seen that the data shows different than what we have indicated by the -- by the politicians.

For example, having that if you are not sick, don't go to the -- to the -- to the worship places or where you are allowed. So basically, it's very difficult because 80 percent people who are infected with the coronaviruses don't even notice that.

So it's very difficult to really assess that who is infected, who is not infected, until infrastructure is such that everyone is tested and they know who have the infection or who doesn't have the infection.

HOLMES: You had Dr. Anthony Fauci, on Friday, saying that it is conceivable that the U.S. could have a coronavirus vaccine by December, positive developments. We've seen some in Oxford. We've seen some in China as well.

Given the need for widespread trialing, though, do you -- do you fear that there could be too much of a rush to approving a vaccine too soon?

MUNIR: Well, that's really important aspect of the vaccine research. I think one thing that we need to appreciate, in last five months in this pandemic, there has been a (INAUDIBLE) by the biomedical research to bring in technologies and to really propose solution for this pandemic.

And, by that, I mean, like, within five months, we have over 100 vaccine candidate being tested, at different scale, including one of the vaccine that my group has developed. So this is certainly true that we have power and we have resources to do that.

But one thing that is important is to consider that vaccine is not something that you need to compress against the time. Of course, there is an urgency and we should have vaccine because, probably, that is the only way coming out of the lockdown and coming to the normal.

But if you compress against the time, the safety and the (INAUDIBLE) would be compromised and that's the worst thing I want to see that a vaccine used to prevent the infection would have more side effects.

So it should be taken very cautiously, according to the timeline and the guideline set by the World Health Organization through years of research. Those should not be sabotaged. HOLMES: Right. And -- and -- and finally, if I could ask you, I mean,

it was interesting today that the WHO felt the need to say that fighting against misinformation about COVID-19 is just as important as fighting the virus itself.

I mean, have you seen a lot of disinformation that concerns you?

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HOLMES: That people, perhaps, might not be taking this seriously enough because of information that maybe plays down the risks?

MUNIR: Well, certainly, right from the beginning, probably because of lack of certainties, like the disease had been (INAUDIBLE) we didn't know a lot about that in the early days. And also because of the pseudoscience, a lot of misinformation has spurred (ph). And it spread much faster than the virus itself.

And I think there is no best time to emphasize on to the fact that the leading news (INAUDIBLE) resource for the information and the (INAUDIBLE) organization should be the only source for consultation when it comes to acquiring the information.

And I want to emphasize one thing here is that, many countries, especially in Asia, they've been very bold in debunking the misinformation. So I think the media, itself, should take bold steps to really criticize the thing that is not really backed up by the scientific evidences, because this would be a lot more damaging than the virus itself.

HOLMES: Dr. Muhammad Munir from Lancaster University, appreciate you coming on, thanks so much.

MUNIR: Thank you for having me on the show.

HOLMES: Well, the U.S. president has, of course, been singing the praises of the anti-malarial drug, hydroxychloroquine, for treating coronavirus. And says he's been taking it, himself, as a preventative measure, for the last couple of weeks.

But a new large-scale study shows the drug is far from a magic cure- all and might be downright dangerous. Elizabeth Cohen explains.

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ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: There's news about the drug that President Trump has touted to fight COVID-19 and it's not good news. This is the largest study ever of hydroxychloroquine. That's the drug that Trump has talked so much about.

Let's take a look at what they found. This study, the main author was at Harvard, looked at 671 hospitals over six continents. They looked backwards to see how patients did on these drugs.

Nearly 15,000 hospitalized patients received hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine sometimes in combination with other drugs. What they found is that patients who took chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine were 33 percent to 45 percent more likely to die.

These patients were also 2.4 to 5 times more likely to have a heart arrhythmia, which can be very dangerous. This is now one of several published studies showing that not only does hydroxychloroquine not work to fight COVID, it can actually make patients sicker and even more likely to die.

Studies in the "Journal of the American Medical Association," the "New England Journal of Medicine" and now this one in "Lancet," that is why infectious disease experts are now saying we need to stop treating COVID patients with these drugs.

Now could hydroxychloroquine prevent someone from getting COVID-19?

That's what President Trump is hoping because, well, he was taking it. But there's no studies that show that is the case. Those studies are underway right now.

Also, news about a vaccine. There are five Chinese companies doing human clinical trials in vaccines right now against COVID-19. These are the results of one of them. Half of the patients who took low and medium doses developed neutralizing antibodies.

Those are the antibodies that you want to have developed. They glom onto the virus and disable it from actually infecting cells. The fact that only half of the studied subjects of those doses developed neutralizing antibodies was not good news to the experts that we consulted. They said that was unimpressive.

You want to see way more than half of the study subjects develop these antibodies that can bind to the virus and prevent it from infecting human cells. Now it was more effective at higher doses. But at higher doses, you got more side effects.

So this group, Cancio, is going to move forward with clinical trials. But there's some question as to whether they should, given these results. Back to you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HOLMES: Elizabeth Cohen, thanks.

We're going to take a short break. When we come back, Madrid and Barcelona are under some of the toughest restrictions in all of Spain. But that is changing next Monday. We'll see what the data says and what steps businesses are taking.

Also, a generation decimated. Why did it take so long to control this outbreak as it swept through nursing homes in Italy?

We'll be right back.

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HOLMES: Brazil now has the second highest number of coronavirus infections in the world. It reported more than 20,000 new cases just on Friday. More than 330,000 people there have been infected so far.

Meanwhile, President Bolsonaro continues to dismiss the threat of the virus, saying quarantines and lockdowns would have a worse impact on Brazil's economy.

Peru now ranks second only to Brazil in Latin America with more than 111,000 confirmed COVID cases. It saw a single day increase of nearly 3,000 infections on Friday. The recent surge, leading the president to extend the nationwide lockdown through until the end of June.

And Mexico just saw its worst week since the outbreak began, on Friday, recording the highest number of deaths in a single day, 479. That takes the death toll there to nearly 7,000.

To put into perspective how bad a week it's been, the deaths recorded in Mexico, over the last seven days, represent nearly one-third of the country's entire coronavirus death toll.

Turning our attention to Spain now, reporting a sudden jump in deaths due to COVID. But they're not necessarily new deaths. A top medical official says there was a lag in reporting from one region, one that includes Barcelona.

But the region, itself, well, it denies it ever reported late. Despite the confusion, Spain seems to be going in the right direction when it comes to new cases. Also, good news for Madrid and Barcelona. Starting Monday, they will move from phase zero to phase one, meaning they'll have fewer restrictions.

Journalist Al Goodman is with us now from the Spanish capital, Madrid.

Yes, tell us about those changes but, also, about these plans for anti-government protests.

What's expected?

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HOLMES: What's behind it?

AL GOODMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Michael. Well, the Vox, the far- right Vox Party, which is the third biggest force in the Spanish Parliament, has called for protests in Madrid and many other cities this day.

They will have to be in automobiles because people standing together, that's not social distancing. In some cases, the courts have had to overrule government officials. You can expect a very noisy protest. It will start here, at the midday in front of city hall. Expect people to be holding Spanish flags. They are calling it -- Vox

is calling it a caravan for Spain and for freedom. They and other conservatives against the socialist government, say the nationwide lockdown, state of emergency, in effect now for 10 weeks, has restricted their right to movement and democracy.

The government says that is not as important a right as the right to health and the right to life. And that's why they put the lockdown in effect.

But Spain is moving in the right direction, as you say. So finally, Madrid and Barcelona, the two largest cities in the areas around them, will move to phase one on Monday. It means that, for the first time in 10 weeks, people will be able to go out and meet with people who don't live with them, like relatives and friends.

And they can go to outdoor cafes, at tables like this, which have been blocked up for weeks. Small stores are open and just over half the country is going to phase one. The rest of the country is moving beyond that. And they're already on phase two or moving to phase two, where they'll have even more freedom to move around.

The government still saying social distancing, you have to wear a mask in public if you don't have six feet or two meters of distance between you and the other person -- Michael.

HOLMES: All right. Al, good to see you.

Al Goodman there, in Madrid for us.

Italy's Lombardy region was, of course, especially hard hit by the virus, you may remember. It recently did begin to reopen, the virus, having devastated Lombardy's nursing homes, with many elderly patients dying alone. Ben Wedeman, with that.

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BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The lockdown is over in the cemetery of Nembro in northern Italy. Giacomo Boffelli (ph) succumbed to coronavirus on the 11th of March but only now can family and friends say farewell. Her voice breaking, his daughter, Nicoletta (ph), says goodbye.

"But we never abandoned you, we never would," she says, "because you'll always be in our hearts."

This community in the foothills of the alps suffered one of Italy's highest per capita death tolls.

"It was as if a tsunami overwhelmed us, especially the oldest people," Nicoletta tells me.

The average age of those who died from coronavirus in Italy is 80. For the town of Nembro the month of March was a month of daily death. You just need to look at the death notices here. This woman died on the 7th of March. This man died on the 8th of March. This woman died on the 7th of March. This woman on the 9th of March. This man on the 7th.

Of Nembro's main nursing homes original 87 residents, 34 died from the virus, the first on the 19th of February, but it took provincial health authorities more than one month and a half to test anyone in this home.

"The very first swabs done here were the 10th of April" says nursing home director Barbara Codalli (ph).

It's been more than one month since any COVID deaths have occurred here, now relatives can visit their loved ones again at a distance. But the situation remained precarious for the elderly in Milan's nursing home where the death toll has been described as a massacre.

She's also dying without oxygen because we don't have machines says a nurse who shot this cell phone video. We muffled her voice because she fears for her job.

As the pandemic intensify the staff at the Palazzolo (ph) nursing home assured Carla Porfirio every day her 85-year-old mother was fine. On Sunday, April 5th, Carla called the nursing home, they said her mother was on oxygen and morphine. The next day, Michaela died.

"What is so tragic," says Carla, "for those of us who lost our loved ones, we didn't have the possibility, not just to see them for more than a month but we also couldn't be close to them in their last days as they suffered.

[03:25:00]

WEDEMAN (voice-over): "They needed the hand of their loved ones and not just that, we couldn't even hold funerals." As the pandemic intensified, the Lombardy regional government asked nursing homes to accept COVID patients, which may have contributed to the high mortality rates in the homes.

The regional government declined our request for comment, responding that the matter is under investigation.

Alessandro Mazzini's (ph) mother, Marissa, was in Milan's Trivulzio care home, she's now in the hospital with coronavirus in critical condition. He shows me how sections of her care home, marked in red, returned into COVID wards. Alessandro has founded a group demanding an investigation into nursing homes.

"The elderly," says Alessandro, are part of society with a memory, they gave us life, we can't just throw them away.

In the corner of Milan's main cemetery more than 120 fresh graves, here too, most were old, most were in nursing homes.

This is where the unclaimed dead from coronavirus are buried, unclaimed because many of them had no family, they died alone with no one to mourn their passing.

Small plastic crosses mark the end of lives lost -- Ben Wedeman, CNN, Milan.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HOLMES: Well, China's proposed security legislation, as they're calling it, for Hong Kong, has heightened tensions with the U.S. We'll talk to a former White House security advisor about why the Trump administration may be struggling with its response. We'll be right back.

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HOLMES: Welcome back to our viewers here, in the United States and all around the world. I'm Michael Holmes. You are watching CNN NEWSROOM.

China's announcement that it would implement new security measures in Hong Kong, rattled markets and inflamed tensions between Beijing and Western countries. As Hong Kong leaders reacted, the Hang Seng had its biggest daily drop in five years.

The controversial legislation would ban sedition and subversion of the central government in Beijing. Expressions of concern rolled in from governments around the world, including the U.S.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KEVIN HASSETT, WHITE HOUSE COUNCIL OF ECONOMIC ADVISERS: We're, absolutely, not going to give China a pass. You know, all the options are on the table. And I can say, as an economist, you know, if Hong Kong stops being Hong Kong, the open place that it is, then it's no longer going to be the financial center that it is.

And that's going to be very, very costly to China and to the people of Hong Kong. So, yes, I think it's a very difficult, scary move. And that it's something that people need to pay close attention to.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: Samantha Vinograd is CNN national security analyst. She joins me now from New York.

Always a pleasure, Sam. Let's, first, take a look at the broader issues at play when it comes to China and Donald Trump. I mean, you have got China emboldened really right across the board. Proposed South China Sea expansion a lot more.

Do you see China adopting a what are you going to do about it approach, feeling that President Trump won't cross President Xi outside of Twitter because he needs China?

SAMANTHA VINOGRAD, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, the truth is that China has President Trump between a rock and a hard place. At this juncture, because of coronavirus and other pressures, it is no secret that the global economy is already under enormous strain.

And, if President Trump chooses to take actual steps to hold the Chinese Communist Party, the CCP, accountable for what is likely going to be what secretary of state Michael Pompeo called the death knell for Hong Kong's special status, that will likely have adverse reverberations for the global economy and for U.S. businesses.

I think about 1,300 U.S. businesses currently operate in Hong Kong. We trade with Hong Kong. And if President Trump does choose to revoke Hong Kong's special status, that would have serious implications for businesses operating in Hong Kong, as well as trade, more generally at a time when the global economy really can't come under more pressure.

HOLMES: Yes. Talk a little bit more about those -- those China moves. You know, these so-called security laws in Hong Kong. I mean, you got Hong Kong pro-democracy activists calling for mass protest, as you said, secretary Pompeo called it a death knell for the city's freedom. That's Pompeo.

But the key is, what about Donald Trump?

What will he say?

What does he need to say, especially given his constant praise of President Xi Jinping?

VINOGRAD: Well, when the history books write the story of this administration's posture towards China, it's going to be a tale of two policies. We've had various parts of the executive branch take serious steps to punish China. They've taken steps to push China out of various markets here, in the United States.

They've issued sanctions to hold Chinese officials accountable for things like human rights abuses.

But while that is ongoing, President Trump has really undercut those efforts to try and foster a warm relationship with President Xi Jinping. You think back to the Hong Kong protest last summer. We ended up implementing legislation that had strong bipartisan backing to hold human rights abusers in Hong Kong and China accountable.

But President Trump waffled on whether he was going to allow that legislation to go forward. He continued to call President Xi Jinping a friend. And it is very clear to the Chinese and to everyone else for that matter, what President Trump's priorities have been.

His priority with China has been crystal clear. It has been to get China to agree to a trade deal. That would result in more agricultural purchases, by China, of U.S. products, the phase one trade deal.

He has been unwilling to hold China accountable for a host of other illegal and destabilizing actions because he hasn't wanted to upset the apple cart when it comes to trade.

And the broader context here is China's territorial ambitions have been longstanding. The training wheels, when it comes to China achieving those territorial ambitions, came off a long time ago.

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VINOGRAD: Right now, China is taking advantage of various conditions associated with coronavirus to really move full steam ahead in trying to further a road to Hong Kong's autonomy.

HOLMES: Yes. I mean, that's interesting because, you know and that -- that relates directly to the election, of course.

I mean, do election realities leave the president, in a way, impotent because he wants his trade deal to work, even though many people think that the deal, itself, won't make up for the losses on the tariff war?

Is he -- is he sort of letting the country be vulnerable to China, just because he wants to have that deal in place for the election?

VINOGRAD: Well, there are a series of variables here. Let's remember that, right now, China has become a popular political football. President Trump is trying to rewrite his own history on China, his placating of President Xi Jinping, his parroting of Chinese propaganda on things like the pro-democracy protests.

He referred to them as riots last summer, really, a Chinese propaganda point. He is trying to rewrite that history and to look tough on China because he's been so criticized for his coronavirus response here, at home, he's been trying to scapegoat China and, again, to rewrite his own personal narrative.

So he has a political imperative to be tough on China, not to mention the geopolitical one, insofar as China is really forging ahead with degrading the one country, two systems, framework and feeling more emboldened more generally.

But there's a political issue here that Trump needs to look tough on China and the economic reality that doing something serious, like revoking Hong Kong's special status, would have economic implications at a time when he is really trying to point to economic recovery as a key campaign talking point.

HOLMES: Yes. It's one thing to criticize China on Twitter. It's another thing to actually do it. I mean, during the Obama administration, you were part of options discussions in the Sit Room.

What could be done for Hong Kong in terms of options in that Sit Room today?

Or could Congress act, perhaps, separately from the president?

VINOGRAD: Well, let's remember, the last time around, Congress did act when President Trump wouldn't. There was bipartisan legislation passed after the protest in Hong Kong last summer, when the executive branch did not take immediate action.

I can say, having been in the Situation Room, Michael, on these complex issues, there are no good options. Every option comes with costs. And, in these situations, you really need a president who, in the first instance, reading intelligence about how, in this case the Chinese Communist Party would respond to various U.S. steps.

The intelligence piece of this is key. And then, listening to his advisers about the associated cost with any option. What seems to be on the table is a revocation of Hong Kong's special status, which was statutorily implemented via domestic legislation here, in the United States, in 1992.

And it would likely take President Trump issuing an executive order or Congress passing superseding legislation to revoke that special status for Hong Kong. So right now, in the Situation Room, I would imagine that there is a lot of heavy economic analysis, geopolitical analysis about the short, medium and long game.

And I can't speak to the political side of this because I was never part of those discussions. But again, because of the campaign imperative to look tough on China, I would imagine that Trump is consulting with his campaign team, concurrently.

HOLMES: Yes. China, apparently, with the upper hand as it appears at the moment. Samantha Vinograd, thank you so much.

VINOGRAD: Thank you, Michael.

HOLMES: Quick break now. The coronavirus pandemic, unprecedented in many ways. But the world has survived dark times before. Coming up, how the flu pandemic of 1918 and the aftermath of World War II provide useful lessons for humanity, in this current crisis.

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HOLMES: Welcome back. Let's just step back for a moment and take stock of what we're experiencing in this pandemic. The global count of coronavirus cases now stands at just over 5,200,000. That's according to Johns Hopkins University. The death toll, worldwide, more than 338,000.

Now of course, they're not just numbers. They're fathers, daughters, mothers, sons, lost forever. Now their lives changed over a few days or weeks by a silent killer. And our lives changing, too, in terms of how we stay at home and how many of us now work from home, if we're lucky enough to have jobs, of course.

The International Labour Organization already estimates global unemployment at 190 million and says that figure will go higher. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HOLMES: Jamie Metzl is a senior fellow at the Atlantic Council and served on the National Security Council during the Clinton administration. He's also the author of "Hacking Darwin: Genetic Engineering and the Future of Humanity."

Jamie, always good to see you, my friend. You wrote on cnn.com, and I'll just quote, quickly, "The coronavirus alone didn't break our world. It just exposed the world that was already breaking."

Explain what you mean by that.

JAMIE METZL, ATLANTIC COUNCIL: So we live in a world where there are 3 billion people living in abject poverty, where we're experiencing terrible global warming and ecosystem destruction, where we have weapons of mass murder that are proliferating across the planet.

It wasn't sustainable. And I think what this virus has done is just show us how unsustainable our world is here in the United States and around the world. We have these terrible disparities in people's access to basic healthcare, basic access to food, even, in some parts of the world.

And this virus is exploiting that. And if we don't want our civilizations to break, we're going to have to fix those problems.

HOLMES: Yes, well put. I mean, you also write about the difference between how the world reacted post World War I and post World War II. I mean, there were very different reactions.

How does that relate to what we're seeing geopolitically with this virus?

METZL: Well, this is a moment, very much like 1918 at the end of the First World War. Five empires had been destroyed and a new world was on the verge of being created.

And both the progressives and the nationalists and fascists understood that it was a moment of incredible opportunity, where new technologies provided new ways to reach and organize people.

And the progressives, led by Woodrow Wilson, they dithered. The League of Nations failed. But the ultra nationalists and the fascists, they marched. And they were so successful that they brought us the Second World War.

[03:45:00]

METZL: And, in 1941, in the early, darkest days of the Second World War, leaders like FDR and Churchill articulated the Four Freedoms, the Atlantic Charter. And it was really a north star, a direction, a hopeful direction, toward which we could travel.

And when the world -- when the war was won in 1945, they started building that world. And the forces of construction were more powerful than the forces of destruction. And that brought us 75 years of peace.

HOLMES: And the question is, which way do we go this time?

METZL: That's the game. That's what's happening now and that's why everybody, if you're sitting home watching Netflix, this is not the moment for that. This is an all-hands-on-deck moment for our species. If we want to build a better world, now, we have to be laying those foundations.

HOLMES: You know, I -- I -- with Trump's overt criticism and this is just an example of the WHO, the World Health Organization, is that also part of the problem in terms of a lack of U.S. global engagement on this pandemic?

Of course, there's other areas, too, trade and so on. The U.S. has pulled out on any number of global organizations and deals.

What's the harm in all of that, on the world stage, at this critical time?

METZL: So the U.S. was the lead builder of the whole post-war world. And American power, American values have been the most important foundation of the world in which we've lived for the last 75 years.

And so, with the United States stepping away from this role, stepping away from our own values, it's really dangerous. I mean, the peace and prosperity we've experienced over the last 75 years, that's not some kind of state of nature. It's a constructed environment.

And we see what happens when organizations fail. And, certainly, the World Health Organization didn't do as good of a job as it, otherwise, could have done.

But we have to ask why?

And the reason is that we, the countries of the world, the people of the world, we didn't build the World Health Organization that we need, that had its own global surveillance system and didn't rely on states, that had health inspectors that were like weapons inspectors, that could fly anywhere in the world, on a moment's notice and didn't have to wait three weeks for the Chinese authorities to grant them a visa.

And if we want to live in that kind of safe world, we have to build it.

HOLMES: You touched on this a moment ago and I wanted to come back to it because you also wrote in that article that, regular people, from across the globe, must come together to lead ourselves out of the current darkness.

I mean, how do they do that, regular people?

I mean, a lot of regular people right now feel pretty powerless.

METZL: Yes. In 1941, we had FDR. We had Winston Churchill. And if you wanted to have a better world, it was a pretty safe bet to say, well, I'm just going to follow them.

We don't have those kinds of leaders now, at least, not enough of them. And so what people around the world need to do is to recognize that if that's the world that we want to live in then we have to build it. In the same editorial that you reference, I talk about this organization, this movement that thousands of people now, in 90 countries of the world, have come together to create, called one shared world.

And what we are doing is creating a global social movement and political force, representing the common democratic expressions of humans, as a group.

Because if you ask anybody in the world, do we need a system that protects us from deadly pathogens?

From climate change?

Ecosystem destruction?

Weapons of mass destruction?

Everybody would say yes.

Why don't we have it?

And the reason is, there's a mismatch between the global nature of those problems and the national way we've predominantly organized ourselves to address them. And that's what we're trying to fix.

HOLMES: Yes. I mean, one thing that is certain is there will be another pandemic at some point. And there are risks in not coming together because it does not respect borders. I've got to leave it there, Jamie. I wish we didn't. Jamie Metzl, thank you so much, as always.

METZL: My pleasure, Michael.

HOLMES: Quick break, again. The pandemic changing the way the U.S. commemorates Memorial Day. How some are planning to honor fallen service members in the midst of COVID-19. We'll have that when we come back.

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HOLMES: Welcome back. U.S. soldiers placed flags on the graves of service members, buried at Arlington National Cemetery, in Washington, of Memorial Day. This holiday weekend, still in the grip, of course, of a global pandemic. It is giving new meaning to the idea of selfless service. Boris

Sanchez now reports on how people across the U.S. plan to honor the fallen.

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BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Even at a time of great uncertainty, there are still efforts underway this Memorial Day weekend to honor those Americans who lost their lives serving their country, though, this Memorial Day weekend will be very different than in years past.

With officials weary of having large crowds at memorials because of coronavirus, many ceremonies, including wreath layings, are going online. The annual observance at the Arlington National Cemetery will be livestreamed and closed to the public, though on Thursday, about a thousand Old Guard soldiers were allowed to continue the annual tradition of placing small American flags near each headstone, more than 240,000, in all.

The cemetery only allowing family members visiting their loved ones' grave sites this weekend and everyone will be required to wear face masks.

Hoping to avoid big gatherings at monuments across the nation's capital, the National Park Service, also planning to broadcast wreath layings online.

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MICHAEL LITTEREST, NATIONAL PARK SERVICE: It wasn't a question of are we going to do something or aren't we going to do something?

It was a matter of how can we still honor these fallen men and women while, at the same time, protecting our visitors and folks who might want to come out?

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SANCHEZ (voice-over): Meantime, the national Memorial Day concert will not have an audience on hand this year. It'll just be a virtual one.

As for President Trump, he is planning to visit the Ft. McHenry Monument in Baltimore, on Monday, despite a stay-at-home order in the city and Baltimore's mayor asking him to reconsider his plans.

While Americans may not be paying their respects in person, this Memorial Day weekend will not go by without Americans, in various ways, honoring those who made the ultimate sacrifice -- Boris Sanchez, CNN, Washington.

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HOLMES: Thanks for watching CNN NEWSROOM. Spending part of your day with us. I'm Michael Holmes. But don't go anywhere. I'll be right back with another hour of news, right here, on CNN.