Return to Transcripts main page


Trump Claims He Can "Override" Governors To Open Churches; All 50 States Will Be Partially Reopened This Holiday Weekend; Trump Takes On Michigan Over Voting, Masks, Reopening; Interview With Lt. Gov. Garlin Gilchrist (D-MI); Trump Views Coronavirus Response Through 2020 Lens; The Global Race For A Vaccine. Aired 8-9a ET

Aired May 24, 2020 - 08:00   ET




JOHN KING, CNN HOST (voice-over): A holiday weekend in the new normal and the new demand from an anxious president.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I call upon governors to allow our churches and places of worship to open right now. If they don't do it, I will override the governors.

KING: Plus, battleground Michigan gets a visit and an inaccurate complaint.

TRUMP: Mail-in ballots are a dangerous thing. They're subject to massive fraud.

GOV. GRETCHEN WHITMER (D), MICHIGAN: We have to take politics out of this crisis moment and remember we're all Americans.

KING: And in a race for a vaccine, reports of progress.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These are very preliminary data. The proof is on the pudding. Right now, it's all science by press release.


KING: Welcome to our viewers in the United States and around the world. I'm John King in Washington. Thank you for sharing our Sunday.

Our new normal is getting a test this weekend as we mark a national holiday honoring those who gave their lives to protect our freedom. Memorial Day, like everything, is different in the age of coronavirus. "The New York Times" today, for example, dedicating its Sunday front page to those lost in this very different war.

The solemn annual ceremonies at cemeteries and war memorials are being scaled back or spaced out, the parades too. The holiday weekend is for many Americans a gateway to summer, and the beaches are crowded. You can judge for yourself whether these scenes meet the new test of social distancing. President Trump hit the golf course for the first time since early

March. The Secret Service agents wearing masks, the president and his partners were not. He plans to lay the traditional wreath at Arlington National Cemetery tomorrow and then travel to Florida Wednesday to watch American astronauts launch into space.

His schedule is his message. The reopening, the president says, is irreversible.


TRUMP: People say that's a very distinct possibility. It is standard. We're going to put out the fires. We're not going to close the country. We're going to put out the fires.

It could be -- whether it's an ember or a flame, we're going to put it out. But we're not closing our country.


KING: Combat is a Trump trademark. This past week was rich with skirmishes with those the president sees as too cautious. One is with three Democratic women who hold statewide office in Michigan. To that in a bit.

First, though, the question of church and states.


TRUMP: Some governors deemed the liquor stores or abortion clinics as essential, but have left out churches and other houses of worship. It's not right.

The governors need to do the right thing and allow these very important essential places of faith to open, right now. For this weekend, if they don't do it, I will override the governors.


KING: The president has no power to override the governor. Each has a reopen plan for worship and everything else and none rush to change it because of the president's bluster.


GOV. TIM WALZ (D), MINNESOTA: Starting on May 27th, places of worship may open at a 25 percent occupancy if they adhere to social distancing and other public health guidelines to keep congregants safe.

GOV. GINA RAIMONDO (D), RHODE ISLAND: We're not ready. Like, honestly, that would be reckless. It is Friday. They're not ready.

GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM (D), CALIFORNIA: We look forward to churches reopening in a safe and responsible manner.

GOV. J.B. PRITZKER (D), ILLINOIS: The most important thing is we do not want parishioners to get ill because their faith leaders bring them together.


KING: Do the math on this map and it suggests the president's push is more been evangelicals in the November election than it is about the state of worship today.

Thirty states are open for worship. Seventeen more plus the District of Columbia are open with restrictions. Churches, synagogues and mosques are still closed, fully closed in just three states.

The former governor of Massachusetts, Deval Patrick, joins us this Sunday. Before he was governor, Patrick served as assistant attorney general for civil rights in the Clinton administration.

Governor, it's good to see you. Thank you for sharing your Sunday.

I want it get to the point of fairness raised --


KING: It's a fairness issue, a civil rights issue. The president touched on it. Some faith groups and states pushing.

This is from the Upper Midwest Law Center, which has been pushing in states in the Midwest including Minnesota to get: While no more than ten attendees are permitted at any religious service, the governor's executive new executive order allows virtually all retail businesses to open as long as their capacity is under 50 percent. It is clearly unconstitutional for the governor to allow people to go to the Mall of America but not Living World Christian Center.

Address that. If you're allowed to go to the Home Depot or Walmart or to the Mall of America, why can't you go to church?

PATRICK: First of all, the constitutional question goes without saying that religious freedom is a central part of our constitutional democracy and a sacred part of our constitutional democracy from a civic point of view. But any constitutional freedom can be infringed where there is a compelling public interest. And in this case, it is the safety of communities.


You heard and you reported that governors are permitting churches and other houses of worship to open, provided they operate within safety guidelines. And, to me, this is a classic Trump stunt, right? It touches on a little bit of the nerve that the truth we are all feeling about wanting to be back in church, wanting to be back in the community. But it's also revealing because it's not about our safety. He just doesn't care about that.

KING: Well, to your point, this will go to the courts in some places, and the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals in California, 2-1 decision, institutional standards that would normally govern our review of a Free Exercise claim should not be applied. We're dealing here with a highly contagious and fatal disease to which there is currently no known cure.

So, this court, other courts might disagree, this court backing the governor. We've seen this before when the president says, you know, I alone -- I have sole authority. I will tell the governors what to do. He can't.

PATRICK: Yes, right. That is right.

You know, so long as we have respect for constitutional democracy, both in the White House and in the courts, it may be that this president is counting on a majority of his -- of the, you know, right wing if you will, on the Supreme Court. But what a shame to go to that length when governors have said that houses of worship just like retail associations can open within guidelines and should within guidelines.

But more to the point, we're talking about law, you know, for the faithful, you know. My own faith tradition teaches me that when two or three are gathered together, so will I be, says our gospel.

We don't need a building. What we need and what we hunger for as people of faith and human beings is community. I totally understand that.

KING: You call the president's move a stunt. It does seem more aimed at November than this Sunday, if you will. I want to ask you about something else big in politics. You ran briefly for the Democratic nomination for president. Joe Biden is presumptive nominee now.

The Trump campaign trying to make a deal out of this.


CHARLAMAGNE THA GOD, THE BREAKFAST CLUB: It's a long way until November. We've got more questions.

JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You've got more questions. Well, I'll tell -- if you have a problem figuring out whether you're for me or Trump, then you ain't black.

CHARLAMAGNE THA GOD: It doesn't have anything to do with Trump. It has to do with the fact I want something for my community. I would love to see --

BIDEN: Take a look at my record, man. I extended the Voting Rights Act 25 years. I have a record that is second to none.


KING: If you could get on the phone with the former vice president what did you tell him? He did later say that was flip, it was cavalier, he wish he wouldn't have said it that way. But you know what happened in 2016 with turnout in key areas of African-Americans.

How bad -- how bad of a mistake was that? PATRICK: Look, I think he has apologized and he should have

apologized. It was like, you know, one of those jokes that just falls flat.

But I think the point, the point that the host was trying to make is that the African-American vote should not be taken for granted. Not by our putative nominee and not by any candidate. We should be asked. We should be talked with and to. We should be listened to.

And we should be appreciated as not a monolithic voting block, but a reliable vote for a Democrat when our agenda is about lifting everyone and not being left at the margins.

And I think -- I think Joe Biden understands this. Historically he has.

KING: Well, we'll see how one this plays out. Governor Patrick, I really appreciate your time this Sunday, sir. Keep in touch.

PATRICK: Good to be with you, John. All the best.

KING: Good to be with you as well.

Let's get a different perspective now from the former Senator Rick Santorum who ought the Republican presidential nomination in 2012 and 2016.

Senator, let's start on the question of faith. You heard the governor's perspective, you heard the president in the briefing room on Friday. It is a fact, if you look at this from a public health standpoint that in New Rochelle, New York, in Sacramento, California, in rural Arkansas, in Kansas City, Kansas, there have been outbreaks directly tied to group meetings at houses of worship.

So the question is, the president says will override the governors. He doesn't have that authority. Aren't the governors protecting their citizens if they're being cautious here, even if they may overreach to a degree?

RICK SANTORUM, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, it's what you pointed out to Governor Patrick in your first question, which he artfully dodged and didn't answer, which is, are you being treated the same as everybody else? The answer is no, they're not. And they're being treated differently than Home Depot.

And the governor talked about, well, constitutional liberties can be infringed upon with a need. There's no constitutional liberty to go to Home Depot.

The reality is that churches are being treated as nonessential. They're being treated differently than other retail establishments.


And that's -- and that's what I think most pastors and most people of faith who are concerned about this are looking at. They're saying that somehow or another, this is not seen as important.

And it isn't just about community. It is about community. But I'm a Catholic. And for us, going to mass is an important part. It's an obligation. It is considered a mortal sin not to go to church on Sunday.

Now, churches -- the bishops have given dispensation for that. But the reality is, people want to go to church because they want to receive Holy Communion in the case of Catholics. That's something that's physical, it's tangible, it's important to us.

And for governors to be very cavalier about this and sort of blow this off as not important, not essential, we are spiritual beings, not just physical beings. Yes, we need to improve our homes and we need to feed ourselves, but we also need to nurture our spirituality, and that's a very important part of what it means to be a person.

And I think the president has recognized this, and is trying to at least get parity here.

KING: You say right to try to at least get parity here. Is it fair that he's also thinking about -- look, a lot of what he does, he's a president running for reelection, this is not unique to him. Thirty states are allowing worship, 17 other states in the District of Columbia are allowing worship with restrictions.

Is the president sort of declaring war when there is a much lower scale issue here?

SANTORUM: Well, the restrictions are in most cases much more stringent upon places of faith than they are among commercial establishments, and -- or at least commercial establishments where you have people congregating and like I said Home Depot, grocery stores, other places.

So the reality is that most churches, most pastors want to protect their people. I've talked to pastors and other folks who go to church where they have assigned seating, they spread them out, they're alternating pews. They're doing things to make sure their people is safe.

No pastor wants to jeopardize his people. And again it's a matter of -- it is dignifying these places of worship, treating them fairly, treating them as this is an important and essential part of American life.

And I think the president recognized he's got his finger on it, most Americans who are concerned about this don't feel that that's what is happening with most of these governors.

KING: Well, I'm sorry I have to ask you this question, in this context, but I do, because the president comes into the briefing room on Friday, he says this is a big deal, he wants churches reopened.

I'm not going to show them to you, because a lot of the words of them are reprehensible. Then yesterday, yesterday, when Jews would be celebrating Shabbat, when Christians and Catholics might be thinking about, I can't go to mass tomorrow, it's a very important part of the Muslim calendar as well, the president of the United States retweeting a whole bunch of garbage, frankly, accusing one of your former congressional colleagues of murdering, calling Hillary Clinton a name I would not repeat, if the message on Friday was we need more grace in America, what was that?

SANTORUM: Yeah, look, I mean, I'm not -- I've been on your show many times and not to defend the president's Twitter account and his -- his what I think is, you know, poor behavior when it comes to how he deals -- how he deals with individuals that he disagrees with, and I think it undermined his presidency, it's the reason his numbers are not in the mid to high 50s throughout a very -- you know, what I believe is a very successful presidency, and continues to plague him.

I'm disappointed he does those things. And I'm not going to defend them.

KING: I wish he would stop them. Senator Santorum, appreciate your time this Sunday.

SANTORUM: Thank you.

KING: Next for us, we map out the reopening challenge and a few stubborn problem areas. And as maps become a symbol of government overreach to some, North Dakota's Republican governor laments yet another red versus blue divide.


GOV. DOUG BURGUM (R), NORTH DAKOTA: This is a -- I would say -- senseless dividing line. And I would ask people to try to dial up your empathy and understanding. If someone is wearing a mask, they're not doing it to represent what political party they are in or what candidates they support, they might be doing it because they have a 5- year-old child who has been going through cancer treatments. They might have -- vulnerable adults in their life who are currently have COVID and are fighting.




KING: Reopening is now a full 50-state experiment. And many places, it is accelerating this holiday weekend. Alaska is allowing all businesses to resume 100 percent capacity. Beaches and pools open in Delaware, Connecticut, New York and New Jersey.

And Indiana, Kentucky, North Carolina and Texas are entering new, less restrictive phases too. The challenge now is to track how much this increased activity changes the coronavirus case count and the rates of infection and hospitalization.

Let's take a look at where we are as we go through the trend map right here. Let me dial it up right here. Number one, 19 states heading in the wrong direction. They're orange and red. If you're the darker, that means your cases this week were 50 percent higher than your cases last week. Not the direction you want to go. And some states have a low case count, but they're still heading in the wrong direction.

Fourteen states, an increase of 10 to 50 percent. 23 states holding steady, those are the bay states, right? All 50 states are now reopened. So, where are you in the arc, if you will?

Eight states are heading down. They're the green states heading in the right direction. The case count dropping as reopenings accelerate. You're moving around, all Americans are moving around more now that your state has reopened.

In the states that are beige, they're essentially back to normal. It needs mobility now compared to a year ago is 0 to 3 percent different. You see the states in beige, movement now is the same as it was or down a little bit from a year ago.

The darker states, most of them hardest hit by coronavirus. Mobility still restricted to a degree. At least 10 percent more than a year ago.

Let's look at this on a state by state basis. Alabama has reopened, right? You see mobility drops 17 percent from a year ago here. Here are the key points in the reopening.

Now, Alabama is essentially back to normal, 2 percent less than last year, essentially about the same as last year. Here is the trend line in cases.


Alabama's case count is flat. Little bit of an uptick here. There's been some concern in Montgomery in recent days about ICU beds.

We'll see. It's relatively flat. Don't read anything into just one day. But you need to watch that as we go forward.

Georgia has been a case study in the reopening debate. You look here, this is the mobility question. It did drop. It was 26 below. Key points of the reopening here. Georgia now 4 percent mobility now compared to a year ago. So, almost back to normal if you will. Back to the old normal here in the state of Georgia.

And, again, you look at the case count. Georgia has been flat, has been flat, the question is these recent days, is Georgia heading back up or is that a little blip? Follow the red line, more than the yellow lines, that's your seven-day moving average.

Georgia has been flat. The vice president there just the other day saying, a lot of people thought this wouldn't work. Georgia in his view, a success story.


MIKE PENCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We just went out to lunch, and had a great meal. And we were able to do that because of what the people of Georgia have done and because of what you have done, we're now in a position to open up America again. And in that respect, Georgia is leading the way.


KING: With us again this Sunday to share their expertise, Dr. Megan Ranney. She's an emergency room physician and Brown University researcher. Dr. Ashish Jha is the director of Harvard's Global Health Institute.

Doctors, thank you again for coming in on Sunday.

My question every Sunday is, are we in a better place this week than last week? I just want to show you some numbers released by Dr. Birx at the White House. The coronavirus cases in the United States. Again, we are going through a 50-state experiment. We need to look at every state.

But if you -- this is hospitalizations. Hospitalizations headed down. That's a good metric, right?

The question is, as we reopen, does it stay down or start to go back up? And if we could show the cases in the United States, there is no question you're still in a high level there, more than 20,000 new cases confirmed every day. But the line is flat and trending down.

And so, we're going through this reopening, we have seen pictures of the beaches. This is a question mark as people get out and move about. The White House saying it is safe to start to get out of your house.

But the FDA commissioner just moments ago tweeting this: With the country starting to open up this holiday weekend, I again remind everyone that the coronavirus is not yet contained. It is up to every individual to protect themselves and their community, social distancing, hand washing, wearing masks to protect us all.

Doctor Jha, that tells me that the FDA commissioner, even though he thinks we're in a better place, is looking at these pictures this holiday weekend and getting a little nervous.

DR. ASHISH JHA, DIRECTOR, HARVARD GLOBAL HEALTH INSTITUTE: Yeah, good morning, John. And I am feeling the same way. First of all, I think it is good for people to get outside. All the evidence says that you're less likely to get infect infected outside than inside. So, getting outside is a good thing.

But getting outside and getting back to normal are not exactly the same thing. What we want to do is while we get outside, we have to maintain social distancing. I think it is very important for people to continue to wear masks when they're outside, especially if they're in any kind of a larger group setting where they're going to be encountering folks.

So, I think we have to get very clear on our message. Outside is good, but we can't get back to normal partly because we do have so many cases and can't afford another spike.

KING: And so, Dr. Ranney, as you look through the metrics, when Dr. Birx was in the briefing room the other day, making the case that most of America is on a path of progress, she did point out a few hot spots. Listen.


DR. DEBORAH BIRX, WHITE HOUSE CORONAVIRUS TASK FORCE COORDINATOR: So, even though Washington has remained closed, L.A. has remained closed, Chicago has remained closed, we still see these ongoing cases. And I ask the CDC and the CDC is working with the local areas in Chicago and this area in L.A. to really understand where these new cases are coming from, and what do we need to do to prevent them in the future.


KING: Urban, suburban density, to what do you attribute stubborn places that where the curve is not flattening or going down as quickly as people would like?

DR. MEGAN RANNEY, EMERGENCY PHYSICIAN, LIFESPAN/BROWN UNIVERSITY: So, it's likely due to a few things, John. The first is, yes, urban areas with high density, high rates of public transportation, it's much more difficult to socially distance.

Also, areas where people are coming in or where there are persistent mitosis of infection that we haven't yet managed to stop transmission, that's also part of it. But the worry that a lot of us have is we have seen stories in the news and being reported by the CDC that really all it takes is one or two people who are quite infectious to be in a closed space to create a new hot spot.

So although we're seeing L.A., Chicago, et cetera, right now, we're also seeing these new hot spots popping up across the country. And without adequate testing that gets those people when they're asymptomatic or early symptomatic and keeps them home, we're going to start seeing new spots popping up across the country.

KING: Well, you had one of those in Arkansas the other day, attributed to a pool party. So, that's one there.

So, I want to put up some CDC numbers and I'm going to ask each of you to weigh in because you can read them two ways. The number one, the new CDC report says 35 percent of coronavirus infections are asymptomatic. That tells me I better be careful when I go to the beach.


I better be careful if my house of worship is reopened because the person next to me may look fine, but be carrying the coronavirus. On the same -- at the same time, the estimated death rate among those who get infected are showing symptoms 0.4 percent.

Dr. Jha, to you first, some people would argue, OK, this is horrible. This would be a couple of tough weeks, but it is not as fatal, not as deadly as is we thought. So let's reopen and get about our business.

JHA: Yes, John, first of all, I think the asymptomatic spread number is right. I thought it might be slightly higher but sort of that 30 percent to 50 percent of the infections from asymptomatic people. This is why we have been encouraging people to wear masks because you may not know you have it and can spread it.

You know, 0.4 percent number is puzzling to me. It's very much outside the scientific consensus. The scientific consensus really kind of hovers around 0.8 percent. So, twice as high.

But even if you take their 0.4 percent, and I don't understand why the CDC is getting that very low rate, if we let this disease spread across the country unchecked, you're still going to have several hundred thousand more Americans dying.

So even in their very rosy scenario, it's an awful outcome. But I want the CDC to be a bit more realistic about what the numbers likely are to be.

KING: Well, that has been a question, Dr. Ranney. Do you trust the numbers you're getting from your government?

RANNEY: So, this has been an inconsiderably frustrating few months for those of us in public health. The CDC has long been the international standard of collection of data, dissemination of guidelines, clear public health messaging. Unfortunately, that has been held up over the last few months during this pandemic.

We just saw a report the other day that the CDC has combining two different sources of data about testing, people who have active infection and people who have already recovered from infection. That alone gives a lot of us pause and a lot of the recommendations that are coming out are not coming out with full explanations or coming out with vague terms that make it really difficult for those of us on the front lines or for businesses or child care centers or camps to know quite what to do.

So, unfortunately no. Right now, we're all feeling a little bit less trust of the national data. Our state governments are by and large doing as good of a job as they possibly can.

KING: We will continue the conversation. Dr. Ranney, Dr. Jha, again, I'm grateful this Sunday. We'll see you again.

JHA: Thank you.

KING: Thank you.

Up next for us, a Michigan trip to remember. The president ignores the rule requiring masks then stokes fight with three prominent Democratic women.


[08:32:00] KING: Michigan is on the President's mind a lot these days and in his

Twitter feed. He regularly takes after Governor Gretchen Whitmer pushing her to reopen the state at a faster pace. He had a Twitter spat with the Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson this past week. He called her a "rogue". She was then happy to fact-check the President's false assertion about Michigan's voting practices.

He also attacked the state attorney general Dana Nessel calling her "whacky" and "do-nothing" after she said she expected the President to follow the rules during his travels to Michigan and wear a mask whenever he was close to others.


DANA NESSEL, MICHIGAN ATTORNEY GENERAL: Even at Ford. It is their own policy. So the President is like a petulant child who refuses to follow the rules. And I have to say, this is no joke.


KING: Our next guest just might feel a little left out. Garlin Gilchrist is Michigan's Democratic Lieutenant Governor.

Governor -- good to see you this Sunday. I want to get your conversation -- what is the conversation among Michigan Democrats because the state is obviously critical to the President. We're in the middle of a pandemic. One would think your governor, your secretary of state, your attorney general -- all elected, all relatively popular -- we know the President has a problem with women voters and suburban women voters. So you would think politically don't attack them, but he does, always the contrarian.

What is the conversation among Michigan Democrats about this?

GARLIN GILCHRIST (D), LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR, MICHIGAN: Well, John -- first of all, thank you for having me on your show.

And our conversation is focused on one thing -- protecting and promoting public health and public safety. That's what every elected and appointed leader, every community leader in the state of Michigan is focused on.

We were one of the hardest-hit states in the country when this pandemic started. We had the third most deaths. And because the people of Michigan have stepped, because we've made choices to keep people safe, and we had to be aggressive -- we're starting to see things beginning to plateau and trend in the right direction.

We're not focused on politics the way the President is. He's focused on attacking and we're focused on healing. We're focused on doing the right thing for people and the people of Michigan have stepped up and responded quite well.

KING: Let me come -- I may come back to politics. Let me stick with coronavirus for a minute. Let's look at your newly-confirmed cases. The curve is down -- this is a seven-day. You'll see a spike in a day here or so. But you see -- especially if you go back to early April, you're coming down. And we're grateful for that and we're grateful for the people of Michigan that things are improving. It's still terrible -- that 500 new cases a day.

One of your neighbors in Indiana -- this is a billboard that popped up over the weekend. "Michiganders, welcome to a free-to-roam state." Is this the kind of behavior you want from your neighbors right now saying let's get everybody about crossing boarders? If Michigan is closed down, come spend some money in Indiana?

GILCHRIST: Well, we've been working together as a group of Midwestern states. Governor Gretchen Whitmer actually led the creation of a coalition of Midwestern governors and lieutenant governors for us to work on things like how we can reengage manufacturing activity and agriculture activity. So I think the relationship with the states have been quite healthy.

So the billboard is a little bit of a joke or a jest. But when we're focusing on the serious business of keeping people safe, of figuring out how we can safely reengage the economy in a way that protects workers and protects consumers, I think the Midwestern collaboration frankly has been a model for the rest of the country.


GILCHRIST: And that's the kind of leadership that we need. And that is bipartisan leadership both locally here in the state when we respond to coronavirus, when we respond to the once-in-500-year flood event that we had this past week, and also the bipartisan nature of the governors and lieutenant governors across the Midwest.

We've shown what it means to work together and that's what people in the Midwest do. It's certainly what people in Michigan do. And that's what we're going to do at every opportunity to make things better.

KING: Trust me, I get your point about how sometimes it is awkward to talk about politics in the middle of all of this. I'm a guy who covers campaigns for a living. And I'm the one in meetings saying, less politics, less politics.

But we are in the middle of a presidential campaign. And the former vice president of the United States said something the other that had a lot of people thinking about what happened in 2016 where African- American turnout was a little down in Detroit, it was a little down in Milwaukee and Donald Trump became president of the United States.

I want you to listen to the former vice president of the United States and then we'll talk on the other side.


CHARLEMAGNE, RADIO HOST: It's a long way until November. We have more questions.

JOE BIDEN, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You got more questions. I'm telling you, if you have a problem figuring out whether you're for me or Trump, then you ain't black.

CHARLEMAGNE: It has nothing to do with Trump. It has to do with the fact I want something for my community. I would love to see you --

BIDEN: Take a look at my record, man. I extended the voting rights 25 years. I have a record that is second to none.


KING: Trump campaign trying to make hay about this. The former vice president apologized. Said he was too cavalier, too flip and he would never take the African-American vote for granted.

But do you worry that something like this and that a very campaign- like Donald Trump that has a ton of money to monetize this, do you worry about a repeat of 2016 where turnout in Wayne County is down just a little bit, turn out in Milwaukee County is down just a little, and Michigan and Wisconsin flip from blue to red and Donald Trump gets re-elected?

GILCHRIST: Well, I mean first of all, I'm speaking with you from Wayne County from Detroit where I live right now. And the idea that President Donald Trump and his dangerous and destructive agenda is better for the black community in Detroit or any place else in the country is just patently false and that's been laid bare by his failed response to the coronavirus pandemic in which the city of Detroit where I live, it's been more -- as deadly as it's been in any other part of the country.

I lost the pastor of my church, died last night. This is a real thing -- the 21st person in my life. The idea that the President's agenda is serving black folks is just patently ridiculous. The vice president's agenda on the other hand and his record shows that he has stepped up.

Look, I understand what Charlemagne was saying. I talked to Charlemagne a few weeks ago on their show and he wanted to make sure that he could understand what the agenda was for the black community. And thankfully Vice President Biden has stepped up and defined one and he was there on the Breakfast Club to converse about what that agenda can look like going forward.

I think that actually -- there's an opportunity for the vice president to continue to engage and I'm happy to help him by being a part of that.

KING: Lieutenant Governor Gilchrist -- sad to hear that news about your pastor. Everyday somebody loses somebody in their life. I appreciate very much your time this Sunday. Best of luck -- sir.

GILCHRIST: Thank you -- John. Take care.

KING: Thank you.

GILCHRIST: Stay safe.

KING: Thank you -- sir. Up next, the President pushes reopening hopes -- in hopes of a pre- election rebound, but some lost jobs might never return.

And a quick look -- coronavirus by the numbers: 39 percent of you have delayed medical care; carbon emissions down 17 percent between January and April; nearly 350,000 people passed through TSA checkpoints on Friday, that's down almost 90 percent from a year ago but the highest number since the end of March -- March 22nd; and 100,000 cruise ship workers still stuck at sea.



KING: President's coronavirus response is now very much an extension of his re-election campaign -- the parts he can control, anyway. You're looking at this map from 2016: the red, counties won by President Trump; the blue, counties won by Hillary Clinton. These are counties with 100-plus cases of COVID-19 for 100,000 residents, so the counties with the most coronavirus.

There are nearly 1,300 Trump counties, just shy of 400 Clinton counties. So you see the coronavirus cases, (INAUDIBLE) cases stretch deep into Trump country. That's one thing he has to worry about as he runs for reelection.

As he works through all this, one of the things we have seen him do is support protest movements against governors -- mostly Democratic governors -- in states important to the President's map (ph), including Maine, Minnesota, Michigan, North Carolina and Virginia. The President encouraging protests there that tell the governors speed up the reopening.

Another thing we have seen from the President is that when he travels, it is all about the map -- Arizona, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Florida in the week ahead. All of those key battlegrounds back in 2016 and again now in 2020.

One of the issues for the President is he wants the reopening to accelerate and get going as fast as possible, forgive me while I open this up -- because of the economic devastation of the coronavirus. Nearly 40 million Americans -- nearly 40 million Americans have filed claims for unemployment in just the last nine weeks. The President insists, though, as America reopens, the comeback will be giant.


DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Next year we're going to have one of the strongest years we've had in a long time. And that's my ambition, to get it back to not only where it was, but to beyond where it was.

You watch what happens starting in the fourth quarter, probably starting in the third quarter a little bit -- the transition quarter. We're going to be bigger and better than ever. Within the next year, we're going to be exceeding any expectation and

I have had a good gut feeling about a lot of things, including running for president. And by the way, I think we're going to do better the second time.


KING: With us this Sunday to share his insights and expertise, Mark Zandi, the chief economist for Moody's Analytics. Mark -- thanks for being with us this Sunday.

The President says he trusts his gut. I read your analysis every week and you have a different view about A, whether the economy is going to bounce back immediately and B, whether we may hit another ditch come fall.

MARK ZANDI, CHIEF ECONOMIST, MOODY'S ANALYTICS: Yes. Well, the economy will get a bounce as businesses reopen between now and let's say Labor Day. But after that, I think the economy just goes sideways, treads water at best until we get a vaccine that is widely distributed and adopted.

It's hard to imagine businesspeople really engaging, hiring, investing, expanding their businesses. Entrepreneurs starting new companies, consumers doing what they typically do until, you know, people feel comfortable that they're not going to get sick if they go out and about. So it's just very difficult for me to see this economy really getting back on the rails until the other side of that vaccine.

And then, John -- even after that, it's going to be a struggle because we're going to see lots of businesses fail, bankruptcies, you can already see that in the headlines yesterday with Hertz filing for bankruptcy. So it's going to take a long time to get this economy back to where it was.

KING: And so because of those forces and also because of what I'll call lessons learned, some of those lessons will be painful as every business tries to reimagine the new workplace. Do you have any sense yet, of how many, what percentage of those jobs might never come back?


ZANDI: Yes. Well my -- I'll just give you kind of a sense of it. So we've lost -- peak to trough we'll lose roughly 25 million jobs. So May will be the bottom -- we've lost 25 million. Of course, there's tens of millions of more people who have lost hours in wages. But 25 million jobs.

We'll probably get half of those back by Labor Day and that's where we're going to stay. The unemployment rate is going to remain around 10 percent until we get that vaccine. And then it won't be until mid- decade, I don't think, until the economy can fully adjust and we get those jobs back.

But the kind of jobs we're going to get back are very different than the ones we have now. We're going to lose a lot of jobs in the retailing sector, leisure, hospitality, transportation. So we're going to have a lot of hard work retraining, reeducating people making sure they have the skills and the education necessary to take those jobs.

KING: And you mentioned the psychology. America's economy is a consumer-driven economy. I'll just show you some polling numbers. In the next three months are you likely to attend a gathering with ten or more people? About 60 percent of Americans say they will do that. Go to a hair and nail salon, eat in person at a restaurant -- a majority -- those are local businesses. Stay in a hotel, fly in an airplane, attend a concert or sporting event -- the numbers are much lower.

To that point, the hesitation to reengage -- do you think that's going to be a big factor in how quickly the economy comes back?

ZANDI: Huge. Yes. I mean I just can't imagine people just getting back to where they were. In fact, you know, it's not possible, you know, because of the way we're reopening.

Many businesses just aren't going to be able to reopen in the same way. They're not going to be at full capacity. We're not going to have the same kind of gatherings of big people at sporting events and performing arts and museums and amusement parks -- you know, those kind of things.

So I just don't see this -- people really fully getting back on the tracks until they feel very comfortable that, you know, they're not going to get sick. And by the way, it's not only just about having a vaccine, it's about making sure that it's widely distributed and adopted. And that's going to be difficult and it's going to take some time.

KING: Mark Zandi -- appreciate your insights this Sunday and always. Thank you very much.


KING: Up next for us, the race for a vaccine and whether the good headlines necessarily mean real progress.



KING: There is a global race to develop a novel coronavirus vaccine and America's top infectious disease doctor is bullish about the timeline.


DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: Back in January of this year, when we started the phase 1 trial, I said it would likely be between a year and 18 months before we would have a vaccine. I think that schedule is still intact.

I think it is conceivable if we don't run into things that are, as they say, unanticipated setbacks, that we could have a vaccine that we could be beginning to deploy at the end of this calendar year, December 2020 or into January 2021.


KING: There are more than 100 vaccines in development, ten of those are currently in human trials. And the headlines this past week do suggest progress. A Chinese vaccine candidate was said to have shown promise in human trials. Drug maker Moderna reported seeing neutralizing antibodies in a small sample of human trials. And researchers testing six Johnson & Johnson vaccine candidates reported positive results in primate testing.

Our next guest though urges caution. Dr. Paul Offit is pediatrician and director of the Vaccine Education Center at Children's Hospital of Philadelphia. Dr. Offit -- thank you for sharing your time with us this Sunday.

You are very cautious and somewhat skeptical about the big headlines of the past week, right?

DR. PAUL OFFIT, DIRECTOR, VACCINE EDUCATION CENTER, CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL OF PHILADELPHIA: These are extraordinarily preliminary data. So what we're waiting for is we're waiting for the big drop which is to say the large prospective placebo-controlled trial where you have 20,000 people who get a vaccine, 10,000 who get the placebo. Then and only then will you know whether the vaccine is safe and effective.

And I would be really surprised if that all happened by the end of the year. You would have to be really lucky.

Also remember, you know, you want to have a representative number of cases of COVID-19 in the placebo group and we're heading into the summer when it's likely that those -- the number of cases will start to drop. So that also works against these trials.

But we have to wait for those trials. Right now these are extraordinary preliminary data. So let's be cautious.

KING: I know you respect Dr. Fauci. Do you think that maybe whether it's the President's optimism or is he too far out there, irrational exuberance or do you think he's ok?

OFFIT: It's fine to be optimistic. It's fine to be aspirational. I think, though, this process works in a specific way, and it's worked this way ever since the first vaccine was invented. We need to do the kinds of trials that prove to us that something is effective and prove to us that it's safe.

What worries me in this is we're so desperate for a vaccine because we're terrified, paralyzed by this virus, that we might be willing to accept something less.

And I think we owe it to the people of this country, especially remember that most people who get this vaccine will be healthy, young people who would be unlikely to die from this virus. We owe it to them to do the kinds of trials that we normally do to make sure that this is safe and effective. KING: And help with context. A lot of people they just think, ok once

there is a vaccine, I go to my doctor, I go to a clinic, I get a shot, I'm good -- I'm totally good. Stat News (ph) publishing an interesting article this week says "In the public imagination, vaccines are often seen effectively as cure-alls, like inoculations against measles. Rather than those vaccines however, the COVID-19 vaccines in development may be more like those that protect against influenza, reducing the risk of contracting the disease and of experiencing severe symptoms should infection occur."

So something that helps you but doesn't cure you, protects you.

OFFIT: Exactly right. So the protection may be short-lived and incomplete. By short-lived I mean it may last for only a year or a couple of years. And by incomplete, what I mean is that it would protect you against moderate to severe disease but not a mild disease associated with reinfection in which case, you might still be shedding virus.

So I think we need to -- as we know about more about these vaccines, we need to manage expectations so people can know what to expect when these vaccines roll off the assembly line.

KING: A lot of people are on television talking about this and a lot of drug companies are putting out press releases about this. You've actually done this. You've gone from the start to finish and developed a vaccine. How long did that work take in the rotavirus?

OFFIT: Right. So I was fortunate enough to be part of a team at Children's Hospital of Philadelphia that developed the rotavirus vaccine from start to finish, took about 26 years, which is about right. That's about average.

KING: 26 years.


KING: And so when you hear Dr. Fauci saying by Christmas or maybe early next year -- I'm sorry, just match those up.


OFFIT: Well, when we did the phase 3 trial, it was a prospective placebo controlled trial of 70,000 babies -- 35,000 who got the vaccine, 35,000 who got the placebo. That was an 11-country, four- year, $350 million trial to prove that the vaccine was what we claimed it to be, which is to say safe and effective.

I don't expect that we're going to take that kind of time for this vaccine because -- and I don't think we have to. I think there are so many companies that are involved in this and so much interest in this, and expertise in this, and money in this, I think we can do it faster. But we have to do that trial.

And I can't emphasize enough how people in this country should wait for those kinds of data. What you don't want to have happen is that say the administration, come October, early November, says look, you know, we've tested it in a few thousand people, it looks like we have a good immune response so let's put it out there.

The immune response doesn't tell you everything you need to know. You can only know whether or not the immune response you're seeing is protective by doing an efficacy trial. That's the only way to know that.

KING: Dr. Offit, grateful again for your context and caution. We always appreciate it -- sir.

That's it for INSIDE POLITICS. Hope you can catch us weekdays as well. we're here at 11:00 a.m. and noon Eastern.

Up next, "STATE OF THE UNION". Dana Bash, filling in for Jake this Sunday. Her guests include the White House economic adviser Kevin Hassett, New Jersey Governor Phil Murphy, Florida Senator Rick Scott, and Florida Congresswoman Val Demings.

Thanks again for sharing your Sunday. Stay safe.