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Cuomo Prime Time
Trump Mocks Masks As Politically Correct; Lake Of Ozarks Crowds Prompt Call For Quarantine; Protests Over Man Who Died Soon After Minneapolis Cop Kneeled On His Neck For Several Minutes. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired May 26, 2020 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: The news continues right now. Want to hand it over to Chris for CUOMO PRIME TIME. Chris?
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST, CUOMO PRIME TIME: All right, thank you very much, Anderson.
I am Chris Cuomo and welcome to PRIME TIME.
Nearly a 100,000 Americans dead and this President is playing games over Joe Biden wearing a mask, not to mention, millions of other Americans now doing the same.
How about the clowns, who're ready to double down on the death toll because they want to get their party on for the holiday?
Let's bring back Sanjay Gupta with some new information about the antibody tests that we're all hoping will help speed up, or make more clear our ability to get outside.
Then, another story we just have to take on. "I can't breathe," said this victim, over and over again. I'm not talking about Eric Garner. This obscene, new video showing a Minneapolis cop keeping his knee on a suspect's neck, as that man begged for mercy, before he was pronounced dead soon after.
Demands, answers, we have Senator Amy Klobuchar here for exactly that. Remember, she's not just a Senator from Minnesota. She was a County Prosecutor there.
And should the Arbery killing in Georgia be treated as a hate crime? That's what the family wants.
And for the first time since the arrest of William "Roddie" Bryan, the man who took that video, now, he has murder charges against him. His lawyer is here. Is he ready to answer questions? If not, it's going to be a hell of a short interview.
Together as ever as one, what do you say? Let's get after it.
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TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.
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CUOMO: All right, the three-day weekend was about honoring the ultimate sacrifice of our Fallen Warriors, who fought for our freedoms. We know that.
But let's be honest. It also marked a renewed enjoyment of those freedoms. People were able to get out, many, for the first time. Parks, beaches, restaurants in a lot of areas, all open again.
And look, let's forget this BS about who wants to reopen or not. We all want to reopen. We all want to see more of what we just showed you. The big concern was proved out as well. How you reopen matters.
I could show you example after example after example of people acting like fools. Not just, you know, not having any sense for their own safety but, the safety of others. And that's not loving misery. That is embracing the mentality of caring for others.
Now, just to be fair, for every one of the examples I could show of doing it the wrong way, there are so many more, who did it the right way. You wore the mask. Do you want to wear a mask? No. But is it that big a deal? Not really.
Isn't it worth it just to get outside? You kept your distance. You acted like you had some sense, like you care about somebody, other than yourself.
Video of that isn't going to get played on loops or shared all over social media feeds but it should, because reality here is going to be driven by two things, OK? Perception and, what I have been calling the X factor, tolerance, OK?
There are only a couple options here. What we want to be true, and what is demonstrably true, OK? One is about feeling. The other is about fact.
Either way, I argue to you, the answer remains the same thing. Testing, OK? And that requires more than printing up banners and saying the same thing, over and over again.
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DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: We've done more testing than any country in the world.
We've done more testing now than any country.
We've done more testing than any country.
We've done more testing than every other nation, combined.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: Now, look, it's not about doing more than other countries. It's about doing enough for this country, and we all know we don't know what the hell's going on with our numbers.
Remember, the President has already told you why we don't know what's going on, because he doesn't like testing.
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TRUMP: When you test, you find something is wrong with people. If we didn't do any testing, we would have very few cases.
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CUOMO: See, it's not just that he's not so good with the language. He means what he says, and he said it the right way.
For him, testing shows something that is wrong. He doesn't want anything to be wrong. He wants COVID to go away. He wants to ignore the realities. That's why he is shutting up the scientists.
See, thinking that way means that, somehow, the number of cases is going to prevent us from reopening as quickly. That's why he doesn't want to do it. But that forgets the simple fact.
Think about it. If you're like me, and you want to reopen, finding the cases, giving me the facts, will do two things.
One, give me some sense of how to make this judgment for me and my family. And, two, the more cases you find, the more people you test, what else will you do? You're going to bring down the death rate precipitously.
[21:05:00]
Why? Because you're going to find a lot more cases, but you're also going to find that people aren't dying at the rate that we now believe them to be. Why? Because we have an exaggeratedly low number of cases.
It's going to reduce fear and that's the true hurdle here to restarting our economy. It's not just about reopening the businesses. It's reopening our minds and our wallets to want to go out and spend, right? That's the semblance of normal. Demand, that's commerce.
The only reason to avoid testing isn't about bad outcomes. It's about bad politics, the kind of politics that turns the one thing that we could all do to stay safe into a symbol of weakness.
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TRUMP: Can you take it off, because I cannot hear you?
JEFF MASON, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, REUTERS: I'll just speak louder, Sir.
TRUMP: Oh, OK, good, you want to be politically correct. Go ahead.
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CUOMO: "Politically correct," right? Right versus Left, us versus them, even COVID has become part of a political contagion.
Masks are worn because they help, but they don't help his cause. And that's why he's mocking them. But remember what happened when it was about his hiney and not yours, right?
When the valet, when the staffer got sick, what happened in the White House? Check your facts. Even on Fox, they're going to get this right. They tested everybody, daily. They traced. They all wear masks.
So, what is the truth? He's not wearing the mask. But what does he do to protect himself? Masks. Testing. Tracing. So, even if you accept the absurd notion of trading lives for economic speed, think about this.
The one thing that the CDC says is key to reopening schools, restaurants, workplaces, the same thing this President derides, "Cover your face."
For a man who claims to be a Super-Genius, you think he'd be all over the branding opportunity to sell more merch. "MAGA masks, baby." Where are the MAGA masks at? How about "Keep America Safe," instead of "Great," right? Throw it on there. Have them made in China, like your other stuff.
This is no longer about just setting a bad example. He is now using the power of the White House to try to weaponize common sense.
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KAYLEIGH MCENANY, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Look, you know, the President's excited to see that Joe emerged from the basement.
It is a bit peculiar, though, that in his basement, right next to his wife, he's not wearing a mask. But he's wearing one on outdoors, when he's socially distanced. So, I think that there was a discrepancy there.
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CUOMO: Discrepancy, big word. The follow-up question was "Wait a minute, isn't that the guidance? It's not about what you do with family and people you've already been exposed to." "Oh, yes."
Got to check that transcript about the time she spent at Harvard, I got to tell you, because that is just dumb what was just said there.
You know what the guidance is. We're not asking you to wear masks in your basement, with your family. We all know that. Why would the Press Secretary mangle it?
Poison politics, "Us and them. Masks are dumb. Going out during a pandemic with no mask, yes, have fun." This is Crazy Town!
The reason so many states have reopened without seeking or seeing a dramatic spike in bodies is because of people doing it the right way. It's not about reopening. It's always been about how. If you can't socially distance, you wear a mask when you're in close contact with people. Not in your basement. We need more of that. And less of people, who see this President and say stuff like this.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I mean, if he's not wearing a mask, I'm not going to wear a mask. If he's not worried, I'm not worried.
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CUOMO: Any reporter knows you can always find people to give you a few absurd sound bites. I've never been a big fan of that type of reporting, to be honest.
But how many of those people you think are going to flock to Charlotte if this President is able to bully his way to the made-for-TV moment he so craves. An arena packed with Republican delegates.
How many do you think will follow his lead on masks? You really think that guy is that unique? How many of them will then travel back to communities, all over this country, just like happened in spring break in Florida?
Now look, they may not want to count people who get sick and die in that State, if they're not permanent residents, weird in Florida, with all those snowbirds. What a nice choice for them to make!
But then everybody goes back home. What about everywhere else? What about everyone else? You don't have to be the Chief Doctor to know that is a recipe for harm.
Luckily, we do have the Chief Doctor with us, Sanjay Gupta, to help us out here.
Sanjay, always good to see you, brother. In terms of what you witnessed this weekend, and what surveillance showed of how people handled this big appetite of getting back out there, what did you like? What did you not like?
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: I think it's just how you framed it, Chris.
[21:10:00]
There's obviously some just absolutely crazy, unacceptable scenarios out there, the Ozark, Houston. You know, here, in Atlanta, I mean, more than a dozen kids, high school seniors, all tested positive after a graduation party. So, there is a virus out there. It is still very contagious. That hasn't changed.
I mean, that's what's always sort of alarms me about this, Chris. When we first went into pause mode, back middle of March, fewer than 80 people had died at that point, and there were some 4,000 people, 5,000 people who had been infected. The virus hasn't changed. And now we're at, you know, the numbers that we see. Close to a 100,000 people have died, and we're - we're reopening. I think what the good news is, is the other part of what you said, though.
And, that is, that I go around, and I realize this isn't a bifurcated, either open or closed, situation. You do have people who - who are out there, but are - are practicing physical distancing, are wearing a mask.
And we got better evidence now, over the last few weeks that it really does work. New article just came out in "Science Magazine" showing the benefits, actually quantifying the benefits of wearing a mask in terms of decreasing your viral, you know, expulsion into the environment.
We knew it was effective. But now, you're actually starting to quantify it. Even seeing the numbers come down, the models come down, in terms of projected deaths. We'll see because the models are always wrong. Some are useful, you know.
CUOMO: Right.
GUPTA: So, we'll figure that out. But yes, so it's alarming to see some of those scenes that we show. But I got to believe, Chris, that the majority of people, more than half, are doing the right thing.
CUOMO: And, look, doing anything is better than doing nothing in a situation like this, in terms of doing things that can have a preventative effect.
Now, one of the things I encountered was people come up to me and saying lots of nice things. But, also, "Hey, you don't need a mask. You got the antibodies." Everybody's talking about antibody tests and the hope to have them.
GUPTA: Yes.
CUOMO: I saw all these people who were so upset, who said, "You know, I had the antibodies, and then I got retested, and I don't have them anymore. Am I going to get sick?"
What do we know about these tests, their reliability, and what they say about where we want to be, going forward?
GUPTA: Yes, I think it's hard to place a lot of faith in the tests right now, and it's for a couple of reasons.
First of all, I will say that, someone like you, who's gone through this, you have - probably have antibodies.
I mean, the test may find them sometimes, may not other times. You probably have them, and they probably give you some degree of protection. We don't know how long, how strong. We got to figure that out.
As far as the tests go themselves, there's two points. One is that there were a lot of tests that got put out in the market, 60 tests, 70 tests that just weren't validated, probably not very good tests.
There was this rush to get tests out there. Now, they're dialing that back and trying to go back and validate some of those tests. But there is a more nuanced issue, Chris, let's see if I can explain this.
In a community where you don't have that much - that many people who have antibodies, you have 5 percent to 10 percent of people have antibodies, they're harder to find. So, as a result, you sort of power up your test to find them, and you lose what's called your positive predictive value.
It's a statistics term but basically means you run the risk now of getting lots of false positives, which is the worst-case scenario. You don't want to tell people they have the antibodies, and they don't, because then they'll have this false sense of security, even though they shouldn't.
As you get more people, who are exposed, take healthcare workers, for example, in New York. That's going to be a larger population of people exposed, the tests actually, the - the accuracy, the reliability, if you will, of the test, goes up.
So, as you have more people exposed to this virus, the idea that you are going to correctly identify those who have antibodies that the likelihood will go up. We're not there yet, at this point.
So someone like you, you know, you are sort of stuck in limbo. You know you have antibodies. You don't know how protective they are.
A lot of people are going and getting tested right now. They're not going to get a test result that's going to give them confidence, you know, and stuff. And they're going to still wonder, "Did I have it? Did I not have it?"
And it makes me wonder, Chris, with you, you know, you went through this. And, you know, we used to talk every night about how you were feeling and all that.
Couple weeks out now, because recovery's a complicated thing, how are you doing now?
CUOMO: It's a loaded question, Sanjay, because you know the answer.
Look, people who've been through this have strange tales to tell, and not a lot of great answers from doctors, to weird stuff in their blood work.
I'm one of them. I still have weird stuff going on with my lungs. I'm not back to where I was before I had the virus, but I can work. I could hang out. I can engage with my family.
I'm going to be able to do plasma donations, which I want to do with you, together, to show the audience how it works, if people are able to do that.
GUPTA: Yes. CUOMO: But I'm not a 100 percent. And there is funky stuff in my blood work that doctors say is what they see in people who've had COVID. So, freaks me out a little bit but, you know, commiserate is a word for a reason, you know, and people like to suffer together.
So, as long as there are other people who have the same kind of funky blood work, I'll just keep taking it one day at a time.
Thank you for asking. As relevant, I am always telling people about the experience. We'll do the plasma thing together.
GUPTA: Yes.
CUOMO: And so people will learn about it.
All right, I got to jump. Sanjay, you're the man and thank you.
GUPTA: OK.
CUOMO: As always.
GUPTA: Thanks, Chris.
CUOMO: All right?
GUPTA: You got it buddy.
CUOMO: Now, look, we all want to reopen. I want to focus on the positive. I think it's really helpful for us to do that. That's why I'm pushing the testing and pushing numbers so much. I think more data's going to be more better, especially if we want to reopen.
[21:15:00]
But this video from Missouri that I showed you at the top, this is not freedom, OK? This is foolishness. The Republican Governor there says these were poor decisions.
What does the Mayor of St. Louis call it? Perspective from leadership, next.
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TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.
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TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT.
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CUOMO: All right, did you see this, this video of the Ozarks crowd standing elbow to elbow. I know it was firing all over the place on social media.
The question is what message does it send, you know, being like this, shoulder to shoulder, at the Lake of the Ozarks in Missouri? Masks? Nobody's masking anything in that scene, let alone their lack of concern for everyone they're going to go home to.
[21:20:00]
Now, why? Because Missouri has been completely spared? No. It's had about 12,000 cases, far from the worst in the country. But cases there are actually going up in the past week, somewhere around just south of 10 percent. And that was before this.
Now, why do we care? Well, because it's about how we reopen, and what is smart and what isn't, how scenes like this may slow down progress for the rest of the country.
Lake of the Ozarks is a popular weekend spot for all over the State of Missouri, obviously. So, the behavior could have an impact on other cities because, remember, those people are going back to other places, like we saw on spring break, in Florida.
In fact, several officials from nearby areas are urging people from their cities who partied at the Lake, over the weekend, to quarantine for 14 days. Good luck with that!
One of those City Mayors (ph) is St. Louis Mayor, Lyda Krewson, who joins us now.
Ms. Mayor, thank you very much.
MAYOR LYDA KREWSON, (D) ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI: Thank you, so much. Appreciate being on with you, Chris. You're welcome.
CUOMO: The pleasure is ours. Thank you for your service. Thank you for being with us during this time.
Now, I want to contrast where your head is on this with the Mayor of Osage Beach, OK? Obviously, that's where this happened.
And there, the Mayor there, John Olivarri, said "Responsibility is up to the individual. If people made the conscious decision to come down here, and to participate, or whatever level they elect to participate, they made the decision.
Do I feel bad that our businesses have opened up and given our employees the opportunity to go back to work, and feed their families? Absolutely not!"
Now, that is the binary situation that we find ourselves in right now, which is you're either "Destroy business and ruin people's lives" or "Public safety." We've been arguing it shouldn't be binary. But the Mayor is playing on how most people see it.
What's your message? KREWSON: Well, Chris, I don't think it's binary, at all. But I think the folks who are in that - in those shots, engaged in very risky behavior.
And I hope, you know, the Lake of the Ozarks is a really popular place, not just for St. Louisans to go, but for people, all over the Midwest. And those people are going home, either last night or maybe today, to their own communities. And that is a very risky proposition.
I know that they don't want their families to get sick. They don't want their friends to get sick. They don't want their grandma to get sick. But that risky behavior increases that risk, every day.
So, it's certainly possible to go to the Lake of the Ozarks, and I know many people did, who - who kept to themselves, kept with their own families, and enjoyed themselves perfectly well.
But this group of folks that you see in the videos were engaging in very risky behavior, which affects other people, not just themselves.
CUOMO: One point of perspective on politics, and then one on the past.
The politics, "Mayor, this is all about the "D" next to your name. You want to keep people at home and afraid because it screws up the economy, and you think that helps you guys beat Trump.
And you just love the control and the power over people and their freedoms. That's what you Democrats are about. You're playing a long game on the President's side, and the short game of controlling people's freedoms because you love it."
KREWSON: Actually, I want people to be able to go out. I want our businesses to be able to open. And the more we're able to socially distance, and wear masks, the more businesses will be able to open, and the more people will be comfortable going out.
This is a terrible decision, between health and business because, frankly, we need both. And we can do both, if we will just wear a mask.
This is my mask that I wear most of the time. It's got a little St. Louis flag on it.
We can do both. It's not that much trouble for you to wear a mask. The mask should not be the third rail of politics. It should be the way, the path, to getting business reopen, because it's not just about that business-owner.
It's about all the people who work in those businesses, who need to go back to work, who want to go back to work. But the way to have that happen is for all of us to behave responsibly, socially distance, wear a mask.
CUOMO: And you guys have a big portfolio on this, in pandemics past.
St. Louis did better than any other large city during the 1918 Flu pandemic, why? Implementation of early social distancing measures. They banned public gatherings, closed schools.
You should see the chart there versus Philadelphia, which was another Mecca at the time, obviously. And this is all data from the National Academy of Sciences.
And the corollary is when they relaxed in social - in St. Louis, social distancing policies, cases went up, and then they had to enforce them. That's the problem today.
You can ask people to do things. But enforcement is a nightmare that nobody wants to take on. So, how do you get people to do what you want them to do, when you know you can't make them do it?
KREWSON: Well, I think we all have to understand that we are learning to, all of us, coexist with COVID.
We have to be able to do that because we don't know when we will have a vaccine. Will it be six months? A year? 18 months? I don't know the answer to that. We have to figure out how to coexist with COVID.
[21:25:00]
And we think that the way to do that now is to be six feet apart from one another, wear a mask, and then continue to be able to have our businesses open, because we desperately do need to do that, but not at the expense of our health.
So, the path to that reopening is social distancing, and wearing a mask.
CUOMO: Mayor Lyda Krewson, thank you, very much, for having this conversation. I wish you good luck and good health going forward.
KREWSON: Thank you, Chris. Appreciate you.
CUOMO: Thank you.
All right, so look, that video of people partying in a way that they really shouldn't be right now, that's one kind of problem.
The next video that we have to deal with tonight is an entirely different echelon of pain, and should give us a different echelon of purpose, OK? I'm not going to show it until we get back from the break, because it may be too much to take twice, frankly.
But what happened in Minnesota with these cops, and this man, where he wound up dead, it's not just that this interaction between cops and a man of color resulted in a death. It's how it happened.
And, frankly, it's about how it has happened too often, in that State and around this country. There are protests going on, right now as we speak, and things are not going well. And I'm not talking about the weather.
A man is dead. Four cops are fired. But is that enough? Senator Amy Klobuchar knows the State, and she's a former top Prosecutor. She's here, next.
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CUOMO: Police and the outraged are facing off outside a police precinct in Minnesota, right now.
This is live picture from Minneapolis. You see traffic moving. That's a good sign because it means that everything isn't shut down there, outside the police precinct.
I give you context like that because it was worse, a little while ago, and that's why you see those clouds. That's dispersant. Offers - officers fired that because there was too many dangerous situations, in their opinion.
Why are the outrage there? You see Black Lives Matter sign. People have come there, they say, because of the death of George Floyd, the Black man, who died yesterday, in police custody, shortly after a White officer was seen kneeling on his neck.
CNN's team witnessed people throwing debris at officers. The front window of the precinct was also smashed during the events there.
We will keep an eye on the video. I'm not going to show it gratuitously. But if there are events that trigger a change in the context from what you just saw, we'll go back to it.
More important for point of analysis is to show you the video that fed into all of this, fed into the outrage. It was captured by a bystander.
Now, I'm telling you, as always, this is not easy to watch. But if you want to know the truth of the situation, you cannot hide your eyes from what we are able to show. It's all ugly.
Imagine how it is for his family. Imagine how it was for him. If you care about these situations, watch the video.
Now, fair question. "Wait. What do you mean a bystander? Where is the body camera footage?"
We're told it exists, but it is not released, at this point. So, I can't show you what they have, and what happened leading up to the arrest, nor what police have described as Floyd resisting arrest. Here's what I can show you.
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GEORGE FLOYD: I can't breathe.
WITNESS: Boy, you got him down man. Let him breathe least man.
FLOYD: I can't breathe.
WITNESS: I've been trying to help out.
FLOYD: (INAUDIBLE).
WITNESS: One of my homies died.
FLOYD: (INAUDIBLE).
POLICE: Relax.
FLOYD: Man, I can't breathe. My face. It's kill.
POLICE: What do you want?
FLOYD: I can't breathe. Please, the knee in my neck. I can't breathe (BEEP).
WITNESS: Well, get up and get in the car man.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: Now look, you may remember that kind of saying, that kind of plea. "I can't breathe." It became a metaphor for the Eric Garner case, here, in New York.
This video goes on for 10 or so minutes. People standing nearby, you hear what they're saying. They're asking the officers to let him up. Police say Floyd died at a hospital, a short time later, and that no weapons were used, at any time, by Floyd or the officers.
Four officers were involved. They have all been terminated by the Police Force. Is that the end of the story?
Minnesota Senator Amy Klobuchar says the firing is a step in the right direction. She joins me now.
Senator, thank you for making the time, especially last-minute notice.
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR (D-MN): Thank you, Chris.
CUOMO: Look, I appreciate you taking the time to do it. What is your reaction to the situation? And why do you call it a "First step?"
KLOBUCHAR: Anyone that looks at that video knows that this is very, very wrong, anyone that cares about justice, about law enforcement, about our African-American community.
I spent the day talking to the Mayor, talking to Attorney General Keith Ellison, talking to our African-American leaders.
And this is a first step because the Police Chief, our African- American Police Chief, immediately terminated the four officers at the scene. And that was the right thing to do.
But, now, the - this is of the County Attorney, and Hennepin County, as well as the FBI and outside investigations are taking place from the State. So, these cases can be considered immediately, fairly, but swiftly, for criminal charge because you just can't have something like this happen.
He was pleading for his life. And outsiders were telling the Officer, very clearly, "He can't breathe. He can't breathe." This was not a sudden mistake or a procedure gone bad. This was over a period of time.
[21:35:00]
CUOMO: Senator, what is your perspective on why there have been as many of these types of situations in Minneapolis, let alone the State, in the last 10 years? At least 11 have died in this type of scenario.
Of course, 24-year-old Jamar Clark speak - sparked weeks of protests. That State - that case is still somewhat in dispute.
But common elements are people of color die, almost always people of color, almost never any prosecution of the cops involved, even if they are fired, and, more often than not, settlements with the family.
You know, to the non - to the laypeople, non-lawyers, what do you got to settle with if the officers didn't need to be prosecuted? Why does it go that way as often, as it has in Minnesota, in Minneapolis?
KLOBUCHAR: Well I think the most famous case actually, out of Minnesota, was of Philando Castile case.
CUOMO: Right, recently.
KLOBUCHAR: Where a young man who was loved, who worked at a school, got shot in his own car when he was pulling out his concealed carry permit.
And that Officer was prosecuted. That was in the neighboring County. I supported that prosecution, and the jury didn't agree with the prosecutor, in that case.
I think what is happening right now is that, finally, people are starting to see videos of some of these cases. I think, over time, that changes minds.
But it is not enough time to change the life for someone like George Floyd or someone like Philando Castile, or the many cases we've seen, whether there are officer involved or not, like Mr. Arbery, the innocent jogger, who is running in Georgia and gets gunned down. And those people were finally prosecuted after the video emerged.
CUOMO: Right.
KLOBUCHAR: So, I think technology is changing things. And I think training is changing things. But there has to be so much more that happens. And mostly, the public has to crowd for justice, not just the African-American community.
CUOMO: Right. Now, obviously, the Arbery case, which we're going to take on after this, because we'll see. One of the people who were charged there, his lawyer wants to come on. We'll see what he wants to talk about, what he doesn't.
But the problem there is those aren't cops. Those are private citizens, who allegedly thought they were cops in that situation.
KLOBUCHAR: Right. No, I said that.
CUOMO: We'll - we'll take that on separately though, Senator.
KLOBUCHAR: Yes.
CUOMO: I appreciate your context calling that.
Now, you know this. You were a prosecutor there. You have been criticized for not going after cops during your tenure. You would go to a Grand Jury. If they didn't return, you know, if they didn't pass down a bill of - of indictment there with charges, then you didn't take it on your own to do so.
Was that worthy criticism of you at the time? Do you have different perspective on it now?
KLOBUCHAR: Well, you look at each case. And, back then, our practice was to bring these cases to a Grand Jury, to present it for criminal charges. And the - this happened all over the country.
I have clearly said I think it is much better now, for an individual prosecutor to make a decision on the case, to take that responsibility and that accountability. I know that's what will be happening, in this case. That's what happened in the Philando Castile case.
And if I was the County Attorney now, that's what I would be doing. And I think it just makes for much more responsibility if you basically make the decision yourself.
Back then, it was thought get - let the community help decide how these cases should be handled. And I think that you can have much more direct justice and responsibility if the prosecutor makes those decisions.
CUOMO: I mean, to people, who were--
KLOBUCHAR: As well as body cameras, could I add that?
CUOMO: Well they say - we say they have them. We say they - that they have them in this case.
KLOBUCHAR: Yes.
CUOMO: But they haven't released it. I think that's always a mistake. The reason that you have it is, of course, for accountability, and to allow the police to show that they were doing their job as well. But the faster that gets to the public, the better.
Here, you luckily have bystander video. But what do you say to the people in Minnesota, if there are not charges brought against the Officer?
And they just saw a video of someone kneeling on the throat of somebody, begging to be let up, and bystanders seeing it as too much. And we both know nobody's taught to kneel on a throat as a suppressive move.
KLOBUCHAR: No.
CUOMO: That's not proper training. What message--
KLOBUCHAR: No.
CUOMO: --would that send if there are no charges?
KLOBUCHAR: I think that, first of all, you got to look at all the evidence. But, to me, this evidence is just crying out for some kind of a charge. And that's the first thing I'd say.
The second is that there are so many officers out there, as you know, in New York right now, during this pandemic, doing their job, every day. And I know that officers, including in my State, look at that, and they think "That is wrong. That cannot happen."
And that kind of message has got to be sent to the African-American community, from the law enforcement community, which includes the people that will be looking at that case that they look at it fairly, that they look at this case, and that they do what's right under the law.
And I can tell you, there is - and the Police Chief made this very clear, he met with the community this morning that this is not - this is not an acceptable police technique. And look what happened.
CUOMO: Senator Amy Klobuchar, it's good to see you again. I think the audience should know.
[21:40:00]
I could be talking to you about COVID stuff. I could be talking to you about your name being in VP consideration. You didn't want to tonight. You said "This matters more." That's why I'm not asking you about any of that.
KLOBUCHAR: Oh well--
CUOMO: And I appreciate and agree with your call, Senator.
KLOBUCHAR: I do want to say that I'm glad you got through COVID, like my husband did. And I'm glad you're giving plasma, like he is. That's a big deal for people to get out there and do that, when they've recovered from it.
CUOMO: Well, I've met him. He's--
KLOBUCHAR: So, thank you, Chris.
CUOMO: --he's stronger than I am. And he is good to be doing the plasma donation. I hope to do the same. Be well, Senator.
KLOBUCHAR: Very good.
CUOMO: And thank you for the good word.
KLOBUCHAR: All right, thank you.
CUOMO: All right, another big story.
Listen, everybody wants to make sure that a use-of-force case is handled right so that cops don't get smeared by the bad actions of police, and that we remember that, overwhelmingly, those men and women are called heroes, and for good reason.
That shooting down in Georgia does not fall into that category, OK? Ahmaud Arbery was not killed by police. He was killed by private citizens.
Now, the third man charged, OK, Roddie Bryan, he's the man who generated the video that put all of our eyes on the situation. The video, that cops had, from jump, and did nothing for over 70 days.
His attorney is back, he says, to answer questions. If he does, we'll ask him. If he doesn't, it ends. Let's see what happens, next.
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CUOMO: We definitely have new developments in the case of Ahmaud Arbery in Georgia. The DOJ is now investigating this case as a federal hate crime, which
means the reason it happened was because of prejudice against color. That is according to an Arbery family attorney. We have not heard from the DOJ, directly.
Most recently, investigators arrested the man who shot the video of Arbery's death, William "Roddie" Bryan. He was on the show. He didn't want to talk. His attorney didn't want him to talk that much.
Bryan's attorney, though, Kevin Gough, is back, he says, to make the case for his client to you.
Welcome back to PRIME TIME, Counselor.
What we've learned is, from the false imprisonment warrant that "The accused did attempt to confine and detain Arbery, without legal authority, by attempting to confine, utilizing his vehicle, on multiple occasions, with the intent of confining and detaining Arbery."
We saw the same thing from the McMichaels in the incident report. Is that true?
KEVIN GOUGH, ATTORNEY FOR WILLIAM "RODDIE" BRYAN: Sir, Mr. Bryan has committed no crime. He bears no criminal responsibility in the tragic death of Mr. Arbery. We have demanded a speedy trial. And we're entitled to it.
CUOMO: You--
GOUGH: And we want to know when we can set this case down to trial. And that's - that's what I'm here to talk about.
CUOMO: Justice delayed is justice denied. But the question is if you want people to believe he's committed no crime, explain why the McMichaels, and the GBI, both have determined that he tried to detain Mr. Arbery, with his vehicle.
GOUGH: I can't speak for the Arbery family attorneys.
I'm certainly not going to speak for the McMichaels' attorneys. I'm certainly not going to speak for the District Attorney. And I'm certainly not going to try and prove a negative because we know that can't be done.
What I am doing is asserting my client's right to a speedy trial. And we were in such a rush to have this gentleman arrested, where he is now sitting in lockdown, effectively, 23 hours a day for what may be two years, three years, or four years, given the history of murder cases at Glynn County, we want our speedy trial.
If the GBI is half as confident of their case, as they suggested the other day, in their press conference, so let's go ahead and set it down. We don't need to spend weeks on jury selection. We can take the first 12 out of the box, and let's get started.
CUOMO: Well listen, I'm all about not wasting time. I think we're doing a little bit of that right now.
So, let me go at this one more time because the idea that he got arrested fast, this has been going on since February 23rd. And he's been sitting at home. So, if you talk to the Arbery family about what happened fast--
GOUGH: Right.
CUOMO: --versus slow, here, I think you get a different perspective.
But let me ask you, again. You say he committed no crime. Explain why the McMichaels--
GOUGH: Yes, Sir.
CUOMO: --say he tried to detain or cut off Arbery with his car. Did he do that or not? You know the answer. What is it?
GOUGH: I'm not shadowboxing with the McMichaels or their attorneys.
CUOMO: No, me.
GOUGH: I can't speak to what's in their minds.
CUOMO: I'm asking you the question.
GOUGH: What I have said from the start is that my client has committed no crime. He is a witness to the shooting. That is our position. We are ready for trial. And I'm just curious why we aren't asking the prosecutors why, having taken the trouble to arrest him, we're not setting this case down for trial.
CUOMO: Listen. There are questions for everybody.
I don't think anybody can go after the GBI for taking too long, OK, after 70-plus days went by, with nobody doing anything, and certainly, Bryan didn't come forward to offer any more information about this.
But again, it's--
GOUGH: Chris, let me be clear. If my client's out on bond, they could take 100 years to try this case.
CUOMO: I don't care about whether he is out on bond or not.
GOUGH: But what he--
CUOMO: I care about you offering what you can in this forum, which is an explanation of what he did, and why he did it. And I keep asking you, and you're not answering. I'm going to end it because I don't want to waste people's time. Will you explain why--
GOUGH: I don't want to waste people's time too, Chris.
CUOMO: Will you explain why he is accused, by the investigators, and the McMichaels, of doing-- GOUGH: I can't explain why we--
CUOMO: --what he did with his car.
GOUGH: --someone, particularly, Mr. Bryan, of conduct that is not a crime.
CUOMO: Is it a--
GOUGH: This is an unprecedented prosecution in the State of Georgia. This is (OFF-MIKE)--
CUOMO: Would it be a crime for him to try to block Mr. Arbery with his car?
GOUGH: Those are the questions that the American people need to be asking the GBI--
CUOMO: Mr. Gough?
GOUGH: --the District Attorney's Office in this case.
CUOMO: Let's worry about what questions I'm asking. If he was blocking Mr. Arbery with his car, in these circumstances, it would certainly be a crime. Did he do that?
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GOUGH: Well you and I have a different view. But what I'm not going to do is try this case in the media. We're going to try this case in court. And I'm sorry if--
CUOMO: But why would anybody think he's innocent? If but - but why would anybody--
GOUGH: --as to why I'm with you here tonight.
CUOMO: Listen, Mr. Gough, forget your lawyer hat for a second, just be a human being.
If you're watching this at home, why would you think Roddie Bryan is anything other than what he's suspected as, especially when the accused pinpoint him in the incident report, as trying to help their cause?
GOUGH: Mr. Bryan has passed a polygraph. I don't see anybody else taking polygraphs. To my knowledge, no other witness has taken a polygraph.
CUOMO: Polygraph isn't even admissible in court.
GOUGH: Mr. Bryan (OFF-MIKE).
CUOMO: Polygraph is meaningless.
GOUGH: Since day one, he did that without lawyers. He did that on the day of the shooting.
CUOMO: Polygraph is meaningless.
GOUGH: He cooperated from day one. Passed polygraph.
CUOMO: Mr. Gough, here's the easy answer to the question. Here's the easy answer. Let me help you out, and then I'm going let you go.
GOUGH: (OFF-MIKE).
CUOMO: Did Roddie Bryan try to stop Arbery with his car? "No."
GOUGH: Mr. Bryan (OFF-MIKE)--
CUOMO: "Oh, then why do they say that?" "Because they're believing the McMichaels, and the McMichaels are liars." "Oh, did he try to help the McMichaels?" "No."
GOUGH: --and he committed no crime. So, I'm not going to discuss the evidence in his case with you. And I'm sorry, Chris. That's just the way it is. I'm sorry if you were misled.
CUOMO: No, no, no.
GOUGH: Good night.
CUOMO: Well, you have a good night, Mr. Gough.
But know this. If you can't answer the simple questions, people will come to simple conclusions. But I appreciate you taking the opportunity. Whether or not you made the most of it is up to the audience, all right? But I'm going to end it here.
GOUGH: Thank you, Chris. Have a good night, bye.
CUOMO: All right, let's - let's move on.
Listen, these are simple questions, OK? Does he have to answer them? Of course not, you can wait for trial.
But if you want to come on and say that your guy did nothing wrong, and deserves a speedy trial - everybody deserves a speedy trial. Nothing about this case has been speedy.
They had tons of days, with the videotape, where the GBI, the own State's prosecutors say what? "Plenty of probable cause. No brainer!"
70-plus days went by. That's where speedy justice comes into play, not what Mr. Gough is arguing right now because this process has just been going, a reasonable amount of time.
What is not reasonable, if your guy didn't do it, say he didn't do it, and explain why people think he did. That's not proving a negative. That is proving a positive that you have a strong case.
More on the big Coronavirus news of the day, big questions on the antibody tests. I know everybody's wondering whether to get them. Dr. William Schaffner will help us understand the plus/minus next.
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CUOMO: COVID is political now. I cannot believe it. I really didn't think that we would get to this place, but here we are. Masks, testing, they're a Left/Right issue, no longer about reasonable. It's just crazy because we should all be on the page of how do we get reopened and be safe?
Dr. William Schaffner has always been on that page, and that's why we always ask him on. Let's deal with a meatball, and then I'll give you a curveball.
The meatball is, "Masks? I'm not into political correctness, Doc. They're a joke. COVID's no big deal. I'm going mask-less. I'm too pretty." What do you say, Doc?
DR. WILLIAM SCHAFFNER, INFECTIOUS DISEASE SPECIALIST, PROFESSOR, VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY MEDICAL CENTER, CDC ADVISER: Wear the mask. Please, wear the masks.
The masks are absolutely critical. We know they work. They suppress infection. And, remember, I'm wearing the mask to protect you. You're wearing the mask to protect me. We're protecting each other. We're in this together.
If we're going to go ahead, and we want to do this, to open things up, we must do it carefully, and sensibly, and that includes wearing masks.
CUOMO: Somewhere in the White House, a man with a tan face is shaking his head, and saying, "Listen to these Lefties trying to scare everybody into covering their faces. Not on my watch!"
SCHAFFNER: Chris, as you know, the virus has no politics. It knows no boundaries. It doesn't care whether you're up, down, left or right. It's going to infect you if it can. And the only thing we medical people are interested in doing is prevention.
Benjamin Franklin had it right. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Let's try to prevent these infections, and not have people get sick, particularly the elderly, particularly people with underlying chronic illnesses. They'll get severe disease.
CUOMO: Got it.
SCHAFFNER: Let's protect each other.
CUOMO: Doctor, quickly, what is your level of confidence in the antibody tests, and whether or not having antibodies is license to feel good about going outside?
SCHAFFNER: Well, it's a bit of a longer story.
Now that we have these tests, what are we going to do with them? Even the newer tests that are coming in that are pretty rigorous - let me introduce you to a concept. Sanjay mentioned it in the previous segment.
The - this is a little like a fisherman fishing in two lakes, one with a lot of fish and one with few fish. If you fish in the lake with a lot of fish, you reel it in when you get a strike, you're very likely to have a fish. That's a true positive.
But if you fish in a lake with very few fish, and something holds your hook, and you reel it in, half the time it's going to be weeds or a tin can, a false positive.
If we start using these tests among people who have a very low risk of having been infected, we'll get more false positives than true positives and we'll be in an even more difficult situation because we can't tell the tin cans from the fish. They all look positive.
CUOMO: You can't just test. You have to test in a smart way.
You have to have the right tests for the right kind of population. I got you, Dr. Schaffner. We got to get it right. We just make sure we have to have the effort behind the need. And right now, that's what I'm not seeing enough of.
But I definitely get your analogy as someone who fishes a lot, but catches rarely. Thank you very much, Dr. Schaffner. I wish you well. Good health and good luck. Thank you.
SCHAFFNER: Good night, Chris.
CUOMO: And thank you for watching. CNN TONIGHT with D. Lemon, the man, starts right now. There he is.
DON LEMON, CNN HOST, CNN TONIGHT WITH DON LEMON: Don't I know how little you catch. I know, from personal experience, you catch very little when you fish.
CUOMO: First of all, listen--
LEMON: It's the truth.
CUOMO: --you have seen pictures of what I've caught. You've eaten what I've caught.
