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Cuomo Prime Time
U.S. Coronavirus Death Toll Surpasses 100,000; Six Feet Of Distance May Not Be Enough To Prevent Coronavirus Transmission, Experts Say; Minneapolis Mayor: Officer Who Kneeled On George Floyd's Neck Should Be Charged. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired May 27, 2020 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: And Larry Kramer played a big part in that. You may not have heard of him, or liked him, if you did. But, to me, he's a hero. And now, he's gone.
The news continues. Want to hand it over to Chris for CUOMO PRIME TIME. Chris?
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST, CUOMO PRIME TIME: So beautiful, so poignant, so important. Lot of people aren't familiar with Kramer's work. But you can't be if you grew up around here. That's for sure.
And I'll tell you. I know what he wanted from the media as part of the responsibility, and the legacy of responsibility.
And as an observer of your work for many years, you're part of that living legacy, Anderson. And it's one of the reasons that we're all so proud of the journalism you bring.
COOPER: I don't know about that. But thank you.
CUOMO: You do now.
COOPER: Thanks, Chris.
CUOMO: Thank you for reminding us of the loss. Have a great night, my friend.
I am Chris Cuomo. Welcome to PRIME TIME.
It's a sad night. I don't know any other way to put it. I don't even like that the music's playing, to be honest. It's just three months. We've lost a 100,000 lives. Do you really need band music to tell you that it's something urgent?
We were told that this pandemic would magically disappear without any real trouble, couple dozen cases.
Today, did you hear what our President, Donald John Trump said to calm our nerves, and reassure that the size of this loss, so far, will not define our fate going forward that we will do everything we can to keep us safe as we reopen, and that he will make it his life's focus, because that's what a President does?
Did you hear him say that? Me either. Not a damn word from Trump as this country is just struggling to get our heads, and our hearts, let alone our hands, around processing such loss so quickly. Suddenly, he is now at a loss. Not even a tweet.
Listen don't come here tonight for more obsession on this BS distraction about what Trump says he's going to do to Twitter or any of the social media platform. It's a bluff, all right? Don't be a sucker. I'm not.
Here, we're going to focus on real righteous indignation. Why do we still not know how to reopen safely? How do we make sure that the painful costs that we mark tonight, at least comes with some renewed sense of purpose to do more and better?
Tell us, Mr. President. Be enraged and engaged on this, real victims, not painting yourself as a victim. You're no victim of nothing, except your own mouth. The Executive action you keep talking about taking, take it on this. Take on doing what we need.
This is a country in a paroxysm of pain from a pandemic, and now reeling from another Black man killed by police. Protestors are back on the streets in Minneapolis, and we're going to be watching.
But more importantly, we're going to push for answers and justice. We've got new information for you tonight, we've got a witness. I want you to hear what he says, so you can understand the situation.
What do you say, my brothers and sisters, let's get after it.
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CUOMO: Six digits. 100,000 lives claimed by this virus. And no, it's not just some picked milestone. "Six digits! That's a magic number." No, it's not somehow different in terms of degree of gravity, from 99,909.
The amount of death is staggering. The number of, arguably, preventable deaths in that number should grab your gut. And the most wrenching part of this reality is that President Donald John Trump has not said a damn word about it.
This is his concern, Twitter, finally flagging some of his BS about mail-in voting. He's lying. They don't do enough of this. This whole thing is a distraction. And you know it.
All our feeds blew up about it, now some fugazi figment of an Executive Order is supposed to be coming. You're being played. See it for what it is.
It checks every box of his badness, lying, spends a lot of time praising despotic dudes like Kim Jong-un and Putin, who have authoritarian grips on their countries. They could shut down a Twitter.
But he doesn't have the power that he desires, and what he sees in them. He doesn't have the power to overrule states on reopening or to override them on churches. And he doesn't have the power to regulate or close a social media company.
He should read the damn Constitution. And they don't have the power probably either. If you're going to take any action, it would have to be Congress. But the First Amendment's pretty clear on their limitations as well.
Look, Trump is not a king, except maybe in his own fantasy land. He can't do anything to Twitter, except, except use it to do something to great effect.
Bravo, sir! Bravo! You distracted us from the dead and the dire situation that you're basically ignoring because you think reopening at any price is a price worth paying for your reelection.
[21:05:00]
Well, not here. Not here. You're not going to forget those faces from all those places. You're not going to remain silent. You're going to be brought up and into the conversation. You are in play, Mr. President.
This pandemic, this is the kind of thing, a concern that should define and consume a Presidency.
But, Mr. President, you will be defined by your indifference to the plan, the dire consequences, the indifference to the deaths. No plan to stop them any time soon. No national testing and tracing strategy, people begging you to do it. Better minds around you trying to fit a way to get it in.
But you, "Liberate the states and it's all going to be fine."
Worse than what he isn't doing is what he's doing instead, lying to you about COVID's capability early on.
And now that we're trying to reopen, and clinging to this simple act of minimal separation, which can actually keep us safe, and cut this pandemic short, that's in the White House's models, it's not out of my mouth, just wearing a damn mask.
Even that, even that Trump has chosen to oppose. Forget about not making it a big enough deal, not making MAGA masks and Keep America Safe masks, and cashing in. He does that so well, but not here. Why? Why?
Ask yourself why. Think about it. Why would he make masks a Right and Left issue when they are just reasonable? Why would he do it? Mocking people who wear them as a function of political correctness? There's only one reason. He believes the more real this virus, the
more it slows down reopening America. Reopening is key to his reelection. That's all he cares about. He does not care about you.
Bring it on. I know. Here comes the Hate Parade. Back your boy! I get it. I respect you as the base. I understand your frustration. I understand why you're mad at the governors and the governance. I get it.
And I get that you see him as an agent of your pain and your outrage. He is not doing what you think he is doing. Things are not getting better.
There is a shameful indifference that pales only in the light of his latest slight, a 100,000 dead, and a President says nothing. Is that really who you want as the agent of your outrage, as someone to go in there, and make a difference? Not even a tweet.
What is Trump ultimately doing? He's playing the victim to you, his base, spouting off baseless claims. He is a demagogue. He knows you're angry. He knows you are scared, and he is using it on you.
He is focusing on what divides us at a time that we are already dangerously divided. This is a moment that is begging for somebody to bring us together.
Contrast Trump's silence, first of all, when is he ever silent, let alone on a day like today, with Joe Biden's sympathy for the country's loss. Listen to Biden.
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JOE BIDEN (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: There are moments in our history so grim, so heart-rending, that they're forever fixed in each of our hearts as shared grief. Today is one of those moments.
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CUOMO: This isn't some pitch for Biden.
You know, I want to ask you, those who say, "You know, Biden, you know, he doesn't have it," what is a President supposed to do on a day like today?
Why does that come so naturally to him? And our President is silent? What does it tell you if Biden, in your opinion, isn't up to the task, but he's able to do that? And the guy who you think is so great is quiet?
Listen, from the base, for the open-minded, I keep telling you, we have to lean on each other in this. We will not be let out of this by Washington. It's not going to happen. It would have happened by now.
We must do it together as ever as one. I know it's trite, but it is true. The question we start with tonight is the only one that matters. We want to reopen. We want to get better. How? That's where we start. Dr. Sanjay Gupta, we bring him in, our best resource, thank you.
There is something coming across the wires that people could hear the printer. You don't get more urgent than that.
Two big things crossing the wire, three takeaways from what we're calling the six-foot study, that six feet, the distance itself may not be the prophylactic we thought. Let's start with that.
[21:10:00]
You've seen what there is to see, at this point, from this study. The idea that six feet, we were wrong about it, it's not as good a solution in itself. Do you buy it?
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well I think that the six feet thing was always a bit arbitrary. I mean six feet is not a magic number. I think what this paper, that which was published in Science, is really making the case about is saying you've got to consider the environment overall. So Chris, who are your close contacts? When you - when you were
diagnosed, they probably tried to figure out, who were your close contacts? Some are obvious.
But what really constitutes close contact? Part of it is with someone that you spent time with, within six feet, that you spent at least 15 minutes with a person that was not wearing a mask. You start to add all these things in together.
But I think what really came out of this paper is saying "Look, if you're inside in a small space, and you're less than, or if you're - even if you're greater than six feet away from somebody, who has the virus, you may still be at risk."
It may be influenced by that smallness of space, may be influenced by how the air is traveling through that space. Outside, it's going to be better, all these things. I think it's - it's hard to apply certainty here, Chris.
CUOMO: Right.
GUPTA: And I get it. People want certainty. Is it six feet or six feet two inches? It's never going to be that easy. But by abiding by the, you know, the basic principles, you're still going to--
CUOMO: Right.
GUPTA: --greatly mitigate the - the spread.
CUOMO: And look, my takeaway from this paper is the unknown is very dangerous here. And the more we learn, none of it is comforting, and it just adds to the urgency to me.
You got to pay attention to this. You got to stop fighting that fatigue that "It's got to be over now. This is got to be the end of it," when we keep learning things that are troubling. All right, six feet is not enough. It's somewhat arbitrary. We got to figure it out, and why? Because indoor spreading is so dangerous, and now, they added another feature to it.
Not only are we denser, you know, more packed in, less proximity that six foot point, but something that they call aerosolization, what it can do in the air, what does this paper suggest about it, and do you buy it?
GUPTA: Yes. So, if you think about the respiratory droplets, you think about someone who's either talking, or sneezing, or coughing, and you have a little bit of virus in the - in the droplets, it's not - doesn't go very far typically, falls to ground, people might touch a contaminated surface.
If you are talking about true aerosolization, a lot of scientists will describe that as the viral particles actually sort of get suspended like dust. You ever look at a sunbeam going through the room? You see all the dust in there.
If the virus can sort of get attached to those dust particles, it's sort of aerosolized, and they can spread more freely, around the room, and further distances.
Most of the virus seems to be within these respiratory droplets. I think that part is still true.
But again, what these scientists are suggesting, based on their models, is that there are some viral particles that do get attached as dust, they get suspended, and they can move around the room.
How pathogenic, I mean how sick those viral particles can make somebody? We still don't know. As you point out, Chris, we're still learning along the way.
But it makes this case, I think the case that you're making, in the beginning of your - of the show, if you have limited information, if you don't have certainty, how do you then act? How do you make decisions in a situation where you have limited information?
Many countries around the world, where they have hundreds of deaths, not even thousands, let alone a 100,000 deaths, they just acted aggressively. They had the same information as we did. They didn't have a magic therapeutic. They didn't have a vaccine. They had the exact same information we did.
So, how - how do you make these decisions? All the questions you're asking tonight are going to help inform how we make these decisions going forward.
CUOMO: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, you are a gift. Thank you very much for being with me tonight.
GUPTA: You got it.
CUOMO: All right, New Jersey remains second only to New York in the number of Coronavirus deaths in America.
And it's not - it's not about blame. It makes sense. It's right next to New York. They're a huge travel hub. It's a big State. There's a lot of diversity. There's a lot of commerce.
Governor Phil Murphy warns that the crisis mode of the pandemic is not over. But he's also sharing some optimism as he is doing his best to reopen safely, next.
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[21:15:00]
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CUOMO: We all know the risk with taking the summer off, right? The less we do with distancing now, and dealing with the virus directly, the concern is that we're going to pay for it in the fall.
A second wave is not an "If." It's how bad is it? And the answer to that is going to depend on our tolerance for the restrictions that come with what we all want to get reopen, to get restarted, to get back.
Now, where you're going to see that tolerance tested first will be in states with more density, right? So, let's discuss that with the Governor of one of those places, New Jersey's Phil Murphy.
Governor, God bless you, and your family. It's good to have you back.
GOV. PHIL MURPHY (D-NJ): Chris, it's great to be back. You look great. Thanks for having me.
CUOMO: Thank you very much.
What did you learn from the Memorial Day weekend about where people in your State are? What works? What needs to be tweaked?
MURPHY: Listen, we've had the several weeks of good data on hospitalizations, and ICU beds, and ventilator use, so we've been able to begin to gradually open things up. We had the beaches open for the weekend.
We didn't learn as much as I would hope because the weather was lousy. So, notwithstanding our restrictions on capacity, and social distancing, and wearing masks, it's probably still too early to tell on beaches.
But New Jerseyans have been extraordinary from day one, in terms of doing the right thing. And as we continue to open up, I have a high degree of confidence they will continue to do just that.
CUOMO: And I know it's really important for you to contextualize improving numbers. You always say "But understand why."
[21:20:00]
Every time I hear one of your pressors, you say "But remember why the numbers are going this way. It's because of what we're doing. It's not that the models were wrong. It's not that I was lying to you or I was falsely concerned. It's because of what you're doing. And if we stop, the numbers will stop moving in the right direction."
Is that still true to the same extent?
MURPHY: 100 percent the case, Chris.
And, by the way, it's not as though we've escaped this without a heavy toll. We have over 11,000 precious brothers and sisters we've lost in this State. But you're absolutely right. I keep saying, "Listen, progress is great. But we're not in the end zone yet."
And this is factual. In the here and now, if you look at hospitalizations per capita, new hospitalizations per capita, new fatalities per capita, we're still the top handful of states.
We are the densest State in America, you alluded to that in your comments a minute ago, and where it's usually a huge asset for us, but we're paying a big price for it in this case.
CUOMO: What does it mean to you that the President has said nothing about a hundred and - a 100,000 people now lost to this?
MURPHY: Listen, I will say this. I know what we've done in New Jersey. This is now at least a couple of months ago, we lowered all of our flags to half mast, and they have remained that - at that level, and they'll stay there.
Secondly, each day in our press conferences, I know you've seen them, we eulogize a handful of folks that we've lost.
The fear I have is, is as important as the data is, and it is, believe me, we are Moneyball about this, and you've got to be, we can never let it become abstract. We have got to remember that these are precious human lives.
I speak privately with families each day of loved ones who have - who were lost, and these are - these are just extraordinary human beings, who we've got to remember that they - they lived that they had extraordinary lives that they leave behind family and friends who will never forget the impact that they've had.
CUOMO: Now listen, Governor, I'm not trying to get you sideways with the President. And I respect your efforts, and you know, that's why I invite you on the show.
But how difficult does it make the job that you say, "Look, you got to wear masks. I'll show you the data. I'll show you the models," and the President says, "Yes, if you want to be a PC pansy, you need to wear the mask. I'm not wearing one of those masks. It's a joke. They're just trying to hype you up because they want to beat me, and they're trying to scare you into this COVID thing," how do you deal with that?
MURPHY: Listen, we've been able to find a lot of common ground with the - with the Trump Administration, and - and I'm grateful for that. That doesn't mean we're going to agree on everything.
I don't pull my punches. And I know that he doesn't pull his. But I would just say this. I call it the Holy Trinity. So, and by the way, I'm watching Sanjay religiously before I - before you got to me.
Social distancing, washing hands with soap and water, religiously, and wearing a face covering, I think those are the three - they're - they're little things, but they are huge game-changers.
We lived in - my wife and I lived in Hong Kong in the late 90s. We've got lots of friends there. They've got about a million fewer people than New Jersey, a million fewer people than New York City. They've had four people pass.
And when you ask them what's the biggest game-changer, it's the lessons they learned with SARS, bird flu, etcetera, in terms, especially of wearing face coverings, and that's a mantra that we pound away on every day.
CUOMO: How many people in this area have seen Asians, almost exclusively, over the years, walking around with masks, and people are, "What are they doing? What's up with the masks?" Now, we know, now we know.
Mr. Governor, thank you so much for what you're doing for your State and for coming on to tell the story of the challenges and the successes. Thank you very much. You will always have this platform to make your case.
Governor Phil Murphy, God bless you.
MURPHY: Always an honor to be with you, thank you for having me.
CUOMO: Take care.
All right, so another big story. We saw the videotape of what happened in Minneapolis. We haven't seen the body camera video. But now we need context because people say "Well we didn't see what happened before. And, you know, it's a little different from that one angle."
How about somebody who saw with his own eyes what the rest of us still can't believe we watched for like an endless period, the needless agony of George Floyd?
We have somebody, somebody who says they saw it, they talked to the officers, they got a feel for the officers' demeanor and recognition, that, we need to hear. That's next.
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[21:25:00]
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CUOMO: All right, we've got breaking news out of Los Angeles. People who are enraged at the death of George Floyd have turned violent.
Now look, I know people don't want to hear this right now. But I'm not calling it a protest when it involves violence. That's a riot, all right?
I want to show you the video of what's happening there. It's graphic, and you're going to see someone get injured. But apparently, the guy you're going to see get hurt is awake, and alert now, all right?
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(VIDEO - "BLACK LIVES MATTER" PROTEST IN L.A. TURNING VIOLENT)
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CUOMO: The video from the scene shows it was a Black Lives Matter demonstration. And that's why you'll see, you know, the White people, they're also smashing the back windows of a police cruiser with a skateboard.
At one point, several people jumped onto the cruiser. That's how this guy fell off. He must've knocked himself out when he did, and he was motionless there for a while.
The other cop car stops right next to him, obviously, to address the situation. He gets attacked by. And that's a riot. It just is, I'm sorry, when you attack the police, and you commit crimes, and acts of violence.
I know that Dr. King and others spoke about some times that a riot is the only voice of the voiceless. But it just changes the meaning of a moment.
And even in Minneapolis, which was what that sparked that, this is there, and the Police Chief said "Look, this matters. People have to come out. They have to show their outrage. They have to show their fear. They have to show their shock. This is the way to do that." [21:30:00]
I only see leverage lost in these situations when you become what you oppose, when you become anger without purpose, especially in a situation like this.
I'll keep an eye on Minneapolis for you.
And, just so you know, we all work in this case every day. We're not having it just fed to us. We haven't seen the body camera footage yet from the police. Now, they'll say this is an ongoing investigation.
My counterargument to that is you see those people out in the street? This isn't happening in a vacuum, OK? The Court of Public Opinion matters in situations like this. This is not a vacuum.
That video has to come out ASAP in all of these cases, OK? Why? Well what have we seen?
George Floyd pinned on the ground with an Officer's knee on his neck for a long time, leading to his death. New surveillance video, obtained by a nearby restaurant, shows Floyd's initial point of contact with police.
Now, here's my understanding of it. An officer escorts him out of an SUV, responding, according to police, to a supposed forgery in progress. That's what this was. This is what this started as, wasn't a shootout, wasn't a drug deal gone bad, it was a bad check.
Once handcuffed, Floyd sits on a sidewalk. Moments later, he's escorted away, hands behind his back.
The end of the video, it's unclear what happens, maybe you tell better than I, but he appears to fall on the ground, as they walk him toward the squad car. Watch.
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(SURVEILLANCE VIDEO SHOWS EVENTS LEADING UP TO GEORGE FLOYD'S ARREST)
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CUOMO: Right now, you see him go down? Now, I don't know if he hit his head or whatever there on the side of the vehicle. I don't know if he fell or he was pushed to the ground.
The officers then have him back on his feet, and it's not clear what point he was back on the ground again, as we see, in the infamous video. What happened then, and in the moments after?
Video's all we have right now. They're the ones with the body cameras on. This is why they wear them.
So until we get it, we have to work the story, and get eyewitnesses. And we have one, Donald Williams. He says he was there, calling on police, to let Floyd up, and watched, as he was taken away in the ambulance.
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(SURVEILLANCE VIDEO SHOWS THE EYEWITNESS, MR. DONALD WILLIAMS, IN THE VIDEO OF EVENTS LEADING UP TO GEORGE FLOYD'S ARREST)
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CUOMO: That is our witness. You just saw him. This is him. This is our witness. So, this is our proof that he was there, OK? He's here for his first TV interview.
And Mr. Williams, I know that this is not a discussion that is easy for you to have. I know you don't feel completely safe having it. And I thank you for taking the opportunity to do it with us tonight.
DONALD WILLIAMS, WITNESSED GEORGE FLOYD'S ARREST: Yes, Sir. Yes, Sir.
CUOMO: So please, from what we saw there, how did you come upon the scene? And what was your initial take on what was happening?
WILLIAMS: You know, it's a lot for me to, you know, take in.
But I was really - it was a really little average day to the corner store. Honestly, I was just really going to get something to drink from the store in the neighborhood. And I chose Cubs to go to - Cub, to go to.
And once I approached the - the store, I seen three squad cars outside the store. And I didn't really think too much of it. You know, I live in a City. I'm from a City.
CUOMO: Right.
WILLIAMS: You know, things happen in a City.
You know, it's a lot of, you know, different things that happen, and the police got to do their job to protect everybody. And, you know, it's what on, and whatnot. That's what I was going through my mind, so I was like another day.
So, as I was walking, getting out the car, I was just hearing a lot of noise, and different motions of voices, and at different tones, you know. And when I was about to walk in the store, like my spirit just like kind of stopped me.
It was like "Maybe you shouldn't walk in the store. Maybe you should actually go over there and see what's going on" because I used to just mind my business, you know, unless and I don't need to, you know, and.
CUOMO: What did you see?
WILLIAMS: Oh, as I was walking over there, I've seen, you know, a couple people were standing there first. You know, I seen a squad car, and I seen one Asian officer, Officer Thao. And I heard people vocally speaking to a individual about, you know,
maybe you should, you know, you're cooperating, you're OK now, you know, maybe they're going to be able to let you up, you know.
And then I started hearing, as I was walking, another guy's talking about he couldn't breathe, and something about my stomach.
So, I've been working with the Minneapolis Police Department, through Pechay Lucchese (ph), the clubs, for the last 10 years, so as I walked up, and then doing personal security, I just sat there, and observed, first, to see what was going on, to see if it was, you know, what was going on, because I didn't know.
And first thing I noticed was, you know, I didn't know his name was at the time, but I think his - his name is Grey Floyd - George Floyd.
CUOMO: George Floyd.
WILLIAMS: George Floyd.
And he was actually, you know, panting for his life, you know, begging for, you know, his forgiveness like pretty much saying he's sorry, he's going to do the right things, he want to get up, his - his stomach's hurting, he can't breathe, his nose is hurting, you know.
And once I realized how the Officer was on him, everything that he was describing to me, was sounded like a--
[21:35:00]
CUOMO: How was the Officer on him?
WILLIAMS: He had his knee, you know, across his neck, you know, and so - and I'm not talking across the back of his neck.
I'm saying across the blood part of his neck, from here to here, so his knee - his knee wasn't from here to here, which is your spinal part. His knee was from here to here, which is your articles in your blood choke--
CUOMO: Yes, yes.
WILLIAMS: --you know, your veins and things like that, the things that cut your circulation off from your - your neck, and your brain, to your body part, you know.
CUOMO: For how long, do you think, it was like that?
WILLIAMS: I got there at least 8 minutes to 10 minutes because another witness walked up a little bit after me.
And, at this time, I'm, you know, you can hear my voice in the video, explaining to this officer what he doing, or what he's capable of, and what they could not be doing at the moment, you know.
CUOMO: What did - did anybody explain to you or did anything make sense to you about why were they just sitting there with this guy with his knee on his neck and the officers around like why did it take so long?
WILLIAMS: Well see, and like I said, I know what was actually going on. So, if you hear in the video, I actually asked him. I said, you know, "What's going on, Officer?"
This is when I finally approached because the people said there's blood coming out of his nose. And I'm noticing it now, at the point, his eyes is turning, different color, you know, and he's talking about his belly hurts, which is pretty much your last move - bowel movement, in your life.
And so that's when I started, you know, pleading with the officers, you know. And nobody else really - I mean, there was only two or three other people that really spoke up, you know, about it, me, another guy, and the lady off - off-duty Fire Department.
CUOMO: Did they give you an explanation as to why they were keeping him there, and why it was taking so long?
WILLIAMS: They said he was resisting arrest. And when he told me, he's resisting arrest, I said, "Officer, he's not resisting arrest. You have your knee on him, and you have handcuffs on him. He's detained at this moment."
Officer Thao proceeded to say "Well this is what drugs do to you." You know, that's not what drugs do to you. Drugs don't get you killed, you know, by a cop.
CUOMO: Yes, yes. Either way, they seem to have him well in control.
WILLIAMS: Control, correct.
CUOMO: And did you make any sense of why they didn't just pick him up, and put him in the car, and arrest him, which is what the job was?
WILLIAMS: Right. Yes, I didn't make no sense of it. Like I said, I work with a lot of cops in Minneapolis. A lot of them could tell you, I've trained in mixed martial arts for the last 10 years under Greg Nelson, like me as a little guy, like I was a renter at Pechay Lucchese (ph) I'm able to secure and control someone, you know, at 5'6"--
CUOMO: Yes.
WILLIAMS: --that's 6'10", 6'20", if you're using your leg - right technique. And they technically was not using professional technique.
CUOMO: No. Nobody is trained--
WILLIAMS: They were using a different technique--
CUOMO: --to put their knee on somebody's throat as a suppression technique.
WILLIAMS: Sure.
CUOMO: It's not part of a martial arts. It's not even allowed.
WILLIAMS: No.
CUOMO: Forget about fair fighting. But this is not what cops are supposed to do. And obviously--
WILLIAMS: No.
CUOMO: --we know that too well now.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
CUOMO: But the part that makes the least sense that any of the cops, did you hear them talking to each other about why they couldn't just move him, and get him out of the situation?
WILLIAMS: Bro, they wanted to kill that man, bro. Like helping get hunted (ph) bro, they didn't speak, they didn't say nothing. They - they're abusing his eyes, bro. The man had his - his knee on his chest, bro. He knew what he was doing.
His shimmy's in my man's neck, bro. He knew what he was doing. Just like having a Jiu-Jitsu choke, if I'm here, and I'm shimmy, I'm shimmy, I'm shimmy, I'm shimmy, boom, my choke's on you.
I told him it was a blood choke. He knew it was a blood choke. He looked at me when I said it. He put his head down. He did not make any more gestures, did not say any other thing.
And the two other cowards that was on the other side of the - the car, I didn't know nothing about. I didn't know about it till I got videos in my social media and things like that.
So, there was an intent to smother my man, and kill my man, and I seen it. I seen it in his eyes. I seen it in his demeanor. And I seen it in their movement.
And Officer Thao, he didn't partake in it, but he had control on what was going on, on the other side of that car, for me not to see what was going on, because the people that know me personally, know how I am.
And I'm very good. I'm a controlled athlete. I'm a controlled person. You know, I have different levels to who I am. And I showed my controlness out there in front of the world.
I got letters, notes, from lots of people that know me from growing up in the City that said I was the most controlled they ever seen in my life, hasn't seen another man that looked like me, that felt like me, that got the same complexion as me, lose his life, to another man that had no senses.
He had no feeling. He had no remorse. He had shit in him. He had no feeling. I don't even think he had a heart at that moment. And he's going to feel that for the rest his life, just like I'm going to hear my man say this, "I can't breathe, I want my mama."
And I'm coming to find out that this man who died, two years on a date that his mom died, I'm a mama's boy, bro, so like that shit hurts me deep down inside, bro, and like something needs to be done or something needs to be done.
[21:40:00]
CUOMO: I know this is hard for you, especially having been there, and that you wanted to help, and that you were afraid this was going to happen.
And I know the police tried to get you out of there, and supposedly, there is video of you showing restraint, and just pushing hands away from you, but not engaging with the Officer, and I know that's not easy in a situation like that.
WILLIAMS: It's not, man. Like - like I said, I'm a trained athlete, bro. I put my hands up because I didn't know what he was going to do next, like he doesn't understand. I have multiple limbs. I could have did whatever I wanted to him. But I haven't.
Got my own kids, I got a family like, you know, it's so much emotions running into my - yes, I was chosen for this. I don't even know why I was there. But shit, I guess I was chosen for this shit, bro. I--
CUOMO: Listen, these - these situations, as you said, growing up where you are, you've seen a lot of this. You've seen a lot of ugly situations and a lot of things that don't make sense.
And hopefully, the only hope we can have here is that this is one too many, and that this gets the attention of justice that it deserves. I know there's been a lot of frustration in that City.
And I know this is hard for you. I appreciate you telling the story. I appreciate you sharing your emotion. I'll check in with you right after the show, and see how your head and your heart are, all right?
WILLIAMS: Yes, I just want to say one last thing, man. I just want to say something to my mom, my family, and my dad, my parents, for making me who I am.
CUOMO: Go ahead.
WILLIAMS: Giving me the energy to do that, my teachers, my coaches, like my support system, in general, the wrestling world, the MMA world, bro, like we need to make a change right here. We make it happen as a wrestling community, we have family, as in mixed marital arts community and family--
CUOMO: Listen--
WILLIAMS: --as a Black community, as America, we have family. We got to make a change, bro.
CUOMO: You know what? WILLIAMS: We all better make a change.
CUOMO: You know what? You're right. I'm wrong. This is a community discussion. You're living it there. You're living the reality. You're a set of eyes on the situation. You saw the duration.
Do me a favor. If it's not too painful for you, you stay with me a few more minutes, right? Let me bring in the Mayor Jacob Frey, all right?
Mr. Mayor, thank you for joining us. Listen, I just respect him so much for relaying what he had to watch.
You and I can only imagine what it's like to see something that, let alone the identification that someone like Mr. Williams has. "There but for the grace go I," that is not a message you want in your African-American community.
As you look at the circumstances right now, how are you seeing the due process of justice unfold here?
MAYOR JACOB FREY, (D) MINNEAPOLIS, MINNESOTA: Well we need to have honesty right now. And we need to have action. I mean that video that was just referenced was horrid.
I mean, for - for five straight minutes, a White officer, on our Police Department, pressed his knee into the neck of a Black man, who was handcuffed, who was no threat, and was articulating very clearly how he was impacted, how his physical health was being damaged, and how he couldn't breathe.
This is not an instance of one second or two seconds where you're forced to make a split decision. This is like five minutes. It's 300 seconds. And in any one of those seconds, you could have decided just to stop. You could have decided to listen to community.
CUOMO: One of those officers could have told him to stop. I mean I think one of the main questions for you to - to reconcile for your community is why did it take so long?
Whatever their story is about how he was resisting arrest, and they needed to do this because what, maybe, who knows. But the duration winds up destroying the rationale, Mr. Mayor.
And have you been told anything about why they said they had to do this for so long and those other officers just sat there?
FREY: No, I have not heard anything.
You know, for the last 36 hours, or 48 hours, I've been asking myself that core underlying question, why is the officer that - that killed George Floyd not in jail right now. And I can't answer that questions.
And because of that, that's why I called for the County Attorney to - to charge the arresting officer earlier today. That's why we need to make sure that we are seeing justice, justice for our Black community, justice for George Floyd, justice for our - our whole City. [21:45:00]
There have been so many people that have said "Well what do we need to do to start the healing?" You know, we - we can't start the healing until we stop the bleeding. And it is - it is very real right now.
CUOMO: There's a meme going around. I saw it from D. L. Hughley's site of it's not that racism is on the - is rising. It's that it's being seen that these videos--
WILLIAMS: Yes.
CUOMO: --are showing us practices that just don't bear any explanation other than the most ugly explanation.
And the real - one of the reasons I kept Mr. Williams is you got a lot of guys, like Williams, in your community.
I mean I think that, what he did deserves respect, weighing in, in a situation like that. You can often become caught up in it on the wrong side of it pretty easily, and that's bravery, and that's citizenship.
What do you say to Mr. Williams, and so many young Black men, like him, who hear this story, and say, "I could be next. That could have been me?"
FREY: Well first, I thank Mr. Williams for coming on this show, for speaking his truth. It is that kind of speech that we need right now. It was honest. It was forthright. And, you know, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry that he had to witness that just horrid, horrid act.
And you pointed out something that is correct, Chris, which is this is not just about this one instance.
This is not just about that five minutes of time. We're talking about 400 years' worth of this kind of racism. We're talking about 400 years' worth of practices that this incident has stood on.
And, you know, justice is the first step in this case. But it's not just about this case, and we still have a long way to go.
CUOMO: Mr. Williams, is there anything else you want to say?
WILLIAMS: Yes. You know, I just want to tell everybody in America, you know, like I've been through this before, you know.
This is actually my - my second - multiple times actually being a Black male growing up in the City, you know, Courtney, back in high school when I was like 16 - 15 - 15 to 16, got killed over in North Minneapolis, you know.
And my barber was actually filling me in on this. I'm like "Man, how do - how did I get involved in? How much is this - why am I a piece of this, you know?
It comes back when I was a kid, man, North Minneapolis killed an unarmed Black kid, when I was a kid, coming from the park, leaving a party, you know, we about to miss curfew. We all running, so we could get home.
You know, we - our only fears weren't even our parents. Our fears is the police, you know, saying with Courtney, he didn't even make it home that night because we've seen the police. We didn't want to get called for curfew. They shot him in someone's backyard.
So, I've been through this already, you know. And like he was letting me know like this is why you're here, bro. You got to speak the truth, and let these people know the real truth about America, bro.
CUOMO: Well--
WILLIAMS: But we're not really assembly (ph) you know. We - we got to get - make everybody unite, man.
And like for our - Governor Frey, man, like we have to see action, bro, like we have to see action from North Minneapolis to South Minneapolis and Northeast, all together, we need - we need united from the Police Department to the Fire Department to the mixed martial arts schools, like you should be making these officers. They should be trained in mixed martial arts on a regular basis.
CUOMO: Well Williams makes a good--
WILLIAMS: They should be able to - be able to take someone without a gun or anything, man.
CUOMO: Williams makes a good point in that, Mr. Mayor.
WILLIAMS: That's all I want to say.
CUOMO: Well thank you very much, first of all.
You know, Mr. Mayor, he makes a couple of good points there.
One is this comes back to not just what's in people's hearts, but what's in their heads. You got to be trained in what to do and what not to do. And I don't know that that's what this situation is about. But we've certainly seen that play out in other ones.
And transparency is really important too. It often takes way too long for people to see what happens in cases like this.
Now, we're told that the bodycam video exists. Is that your understanding as well? And if so, do you know anything about the status of its release?
FREY: Few pieces to comment on.
First, you're right that this particular technique is - is not authorized in any form. It is not part of the training. We've got all sorts of training, from procedural justice training, to implicit bias training, to wellness training. Our Chief Arradondo, who is a real leader, in the Black community, but also a leader nationwide for in Chiefs for Police Departments, has been instilling these values.
And this runs counter, totally counter, to everything we've been pushing for. One of the pieces that we pushed for was - was body cameras. You know, when--
WILLIAMS: Right.
FREY: --when we came in, there was about 55 - 50 percent, 55 percent compliance in turning the body cameras on, and now there's like 95 percent compliance. That's the first step.
[21:50:00]
The second step is to get them released. And we have laws at the - the State level that prevents the automatic release of - of body cameras.
But I want to get them released as soon as is humanly possible, and that means at a point, where it's not going to hinder the ultimate charging decision, and - and the investigation that would lead to that charging decision.
I've made very clear that I think that the arresting officer needs to be charged that it needs to happen. It's - it's been an unprecedented move, as far as I'm aware in our City or State.
But, you know, I have - there's all sorts of protocols and - and precedents that are like baked into the walls of City Hall that'll tell you a bit you - that you shouldn't act that you shouldn't do this that you shouldn't speak out because there's something - there's something around the next corner.
Well, you know what, like this is an instance where it needed to be said.
CUOMO: Mr. Mayor, I appreciate it.
And look, justice is fairness under law. There's got to be due process. But when it comes to truth, transparency is truth, and truth is trust from a community. And if they see what happened with their own eyes, they can judge it, and they'll know how it's judged by others--
FREY: That's right.
CUOMO: --as being fair or unfair. Mr. Mayor, thank you very much.
Donald Williams?
FREY: Chris, let me say one more thing, if I could?
CUOMO: Yes, Mr. Mayor.
FREY: Thank you so much. You know, a core duty of mine, as Mayor, is also to keep the peace. And that duty doesn't go away during times of difficulty. In fact, it is even more important.
And so, I'm imploring our City, I'm imploring our community, this is on all of us, our police officers, on community of all of us, right now, to keep the peace.
CUOMO: Right. And look, this needs to happen. People have to come into the streets. They have to voice their outrage. It is - it is an echo of collective conscience. And people do know that--
FREY: That's right.
CUOMO: --when you turn to what you oppose, and you become what you hate, and you start committing crimes, and you start becoming violent, you change that leverage, you change that dynamic. That said it is easily understood how emotions often run high.
Mr. Mayor, thank you for making that point. Mr. Williams, thank you for making all your points.
Donald, God bless you. I hope your head and your heart settle in this situation. And I'll call you after the show, and check on you, all right? Thank you both very much.
WILLIAMS: Thank you. Yes, thank you.
CUOMO: All right, we're going to take a break, and then we'll be right back. Thank you for being with me for that.
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[21:55:00]
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DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: It's one person coming in from China. And we have it under control.
15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero.
It's going to disappear one day. It's like a miracle, it will disappear.
(END VIDEO CLIP) CUOMO: Zero turned into five zeros with a one in front of it today, 100,000 gone in America, three months since the first Coronavirus death. This tragedy isn't just measured in the six-digit dead, but in the inaction.
I'm reminding you of what Trump said not just to cast blame. This isn't about Gotchas. It's about what we haven't gotten. Many in our government underestimated what we faced back then.
But unlike all the rest, Trump clung to his fantasy. He never caught up because he's never wanted it to be true. His resistance comes from the ugliest insistence. He thinks tamping down COVID makes reopening easier, and therefore, easier for him to win reelection.
How do you know he's still stuck in that kind of denial? Well, how else do you justify no mention by our President of this country passing 100,000 dead? I'm struggling with how to even understand that number.
I know that to those who lost someone, or in too so many families, more than one, the size of the pandemic, the size of the death is not what overwhelms. They're overwhelmed by the depth of the loss. Families are shattered.
For the rest of us, the scale should fuel our collective conscience, "There but for the grace go we," so many gone in a series of deaths that continue unseen. And that's a big part of this, many times more over three months than in the single day of devastation on 9/11.
But there, we saw the devastation, the falling towers, the scenes that are seared in the hearts and minds of way too many of us. Way too many of us changed forever on that day.
But here, now, 100,000 dead. And just the other day, Trump said he wouldn't have done anything differently to change where we are.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What would you have done differently facing this crisis?
TRUMP: Well, nothing.
We've done, you know, amazingly well.
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CUOMO: A 100,000 dead. Explanation, just one, shameful self- preservation. You question that? Remember this.
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TRUMP: I don't take responsibility at all.
(END VIDEO CLIP) CUOMO: "I don't take responsibility at all." A President who takes no responsibility for what happens to America, in a time of crisis, you've never heard that before.
Here's the scariest part of the milestone to me. We're setting ourselves up for more. If we stay on the same course we're on, as we reopen, and don't do things differently, a lot more lives will be lost, needlessly.
If we don't do everything we can, if we keep finding reasons to do less, here's the tough question that we're going to have to answer, each and every one of us, because we're all in this together, trite but true, my brothers and sisters.
What I do, I do for you. What you do, you do for me and mine. That is the truth.
Here's the question that we're going to have to ask at the end of the day when we are truly unmasked in this reality. Can you live with knowing that you basically decided it's OK that others will die because you don't want to do more?
Thank you for watching. CNN TONIGHT with D. Lemon right now.
