Return to Transcripts main page


Third Night of Violent Protests, Fires in Minneapolis; Minnesota State Patrol Arrests CNN Crew. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired May 29, 2020 - 06:00   ET


ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.


ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: We want to welcome our viewers in the United States and all around the world to NEW DAY. This is breaking news. It has been quite a night in Minneapolis.

These are live pictures on our screen. You can see that that part of the city is still burning because of protests over the death of George Floyd.

You're looking at a line of state police who have just showed up on the scene. Overnight a police precinct close to the scene where George Floyd was killed was set on fire. Police were evacuated for their own safety. Minneapolis police have not been on the scene for all of these hours, John, but state police have just showed up, as have National Guardsmen in Humvees. This situation is very active.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Again, what you're looking at now is live pictures. This is about one block from the Third Precinct police headquarters, which burned overnight.

This is the location of another building that has been on fire all night. This police presence, state police presence just arrived on the scene, as did National Guard, although we are not seeing them in this picture.

This has just been part of what has been an extraordinary night. There have been protests across the country over the death of George Floyd. Confrontations between police and demonstrators across the country.

And then the president himself weighed in overnight, enflaming tensions, many people say, including Twitter. He put out a tweet saying, "When the looting starts, the shooting starts," which many interpret as a threat to have the U.S. military shoot protesters. It harkens back to the 1960s, when the Miami police chief made just such a threat.

All right. Let's get right to the scene. CNN's Omar Jimenez is on the streets, has been there for hours, watching this police presence arrive. Omar, tell us what you're seeing.

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, right now, this line of Minnesota state police slowly advanced side by side, as you see them standing over the course of a block in unison. And they've been giving out commands, and I'll let you listen.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go home. This is clearly (ph) this assembly unlawful in the laws of Minnesota. You are hereby ordered to disperse immediately. If you do not disperse, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) behavior, you will be arrested. You are ordered to leave this area immediately.

JIMENEZ: And that command we heard from -- from almost a block away as they were advancing. This entire area here was, as of literally 20 minutes ago, filled with hundreds of people. And as you can see right now, there's absolutely no one.

What they're on before was you see this scene here with flashing lights. We have police here and the fire department. They are working on a huge fire that broke out on a building there on the corner.

And you see sort of the smoldering aspects of it right there where, when we first got here, that fire in that building burned over the course of at least an hour without being touched by any fire department. There was no first responder presence here as people were running throughout the streets, throwing stuff into the building there, as well.

And then it came and literally, a matter of minutes, police swarmed the area, along with the fire department coming afterwards. And as we were all paying attention to this scene and people were scrambling away from this, we turned around, and people said, Well, who are those people down the block? And that's when we turned and saw this line advancing slowly toward our position.

Now, if you look over to the left, you can see what they're standing in front of. That is what used to be the Minneapolis Police Third Precinct that went up in flames just after 10 p.m. last night. They had put up fencing to try and keep the protesters out. The fencing was torn down up. It was breached. The protestors got in there, and then a few moments later, it was up in flames as people even continued to shoot fireworks into that area.

You see it. It is just a charred fraction of what it once was.

The mayor made the decision, along with the police chief, to evacuate that precinct, based on the safety of those inside.

But obviously, this is a situation that has changed very, very rapidly over the course of even just the past ten hours.

Now, when you talk about the National Guard, the mayor and the governor, they have requested about 500 National Guardsmen to come here, as you look at this destruction at the liquor store just across the street from the precinct.

And look, we see them advancing here on the right, the state police officers. We're going to get out of their way here as they advance down the block. You see state patrol. We see state patrol -- So they're tell us to leave. So we're going to back up just a little bit. We're backing up as they form a perimeter on this block here. This is part of why we wanted to be -- this is part of why we wanted to be on the edge of the block, to give them some room to form a perimeter. But you can see, this is a coordinated effort here to protect this area of the city.

At one point I mentioned, you don't have to look far to see the destruction left behind by some of the protesting that -- it eventually gave way to rioting and looting.

And if you look under the stoplight on the left here, you see what appear to be National Guards members. We did see multiple Humvees come through a few moments earlier on a separate street alongside the state police as they were advancing.

But this is obviously a coordinated effort from the local, state and federal level to get back control of this part of the city. And we know that's in the minds of officials here who, including Jacob Frey, the Minneapolis mayor, has been on the side of the protesters for the most part, saying he wants the arresting officer in this to be charged with murder, which is the same rallying cry that we've heard, again, from the protesters and from the family.

Where they seem to draw the line, though, comes from when the protesting gives way to damage to the city. And we heard Jacob Frey in the late evening hours yesterday saying that that cannot continue. And I think we're seeing a manifestation of that idea play out right in front of us here.

CAMEROTA: And so --

JIMENEZ: John, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: So Omar, is it your impression that this has quelled the protests? Have the protesters dispersed and gone home?

JIMENEZ: Well, as of right now, yes. But it's just past 5 o'clock in the morning here, so the -- the main push for protesting was not at this hour. We typically see them come in the evening hours.

What we saw when we got here was not any sort of organized protest. It was nothing short of mayhem. I mean, people were running all over the place, throwing stuff into that huge blaze that I was talking about.

And it's similar to what we saw last night when multiple properties were on fire. There was a big crowd just sitting there, in almost a sense of amazement and awe as these buildings went up in flames. And that's not the only one that we have seen on fire in the area today as it seems local police officers are now joining the state patrol here to form a huge police presence. Again, centered around the police precinct here in this part of Minneapolis.

BERMAN: So Omar, first of all, we want you and your crew to please make sure you are safe throughout this and as you are explaining what you're seeing. That is paramount here.

Second, I want you to explain what happened over the course of the evening. The mayor, Jacob Frey, basically ordered the Third Precinct evacuated. He told police to get out. He was worried for their safety.

And then what? Then what has the law enforcement presence been between 11 p.m. last night and what we're seeing right now? We know the guard had been called into the city. But where were they as this was all happening?

JIMENEZ: As we hear the state patrol giving out some more -- some more commands similar to the commands that we were hearing before. I was just checking to hear that.

Now, in regards to what police presence there was, what law enforcement presence we were seeing, well, based on our evening crews, of Sara Sidner, Josh Campbell and Miguel Marquez, that did a great job, and when we got here around just about 3 a.m. local time, we saw absolutely zero police presence. At least at 3 a.m. when -- when we arrived.

In fact, that was the one thing we remarked, because we watched that building that we showed you a glimpse of earlier completely blow up, essentially. A midsection of it collapsed. Then another section of it collapsed, as the fire -- we watched it blow out the entire top of the building.

And again, that happened over the course of more than an hour. And we didn't see a single set of flashing lights at all. No -- no utility person, no fire department, no police department.

And then literally, it actually happened within maybe 40 seconds. All of a sudden, we saw flashing lights come around the corner. It was local police at first. Protesters began to scatter and run away. They all swarmed the scene, formed a perimeter around that burning building as firefighters began to -- to pull in there.

And then it was when we turned around to sort of walk away from that scene, we saw the state police officers approaching with a few National Guardsmen as they were giving out those commands for people to get out.

So there were a few hours in this part of Minneapolis where there was no police presence at all. Whether it was for the personal safety of them or otherwise, for a few hours, it was an absolute free for all in this part of this American city.

CAMEROTA: Omar, please stand by for us for a second. We want to check in with Josh Campbell. He's on another side of all of these protests. And he's been there, as you say, for many hours.

So Josh, tell us what the situation is from your vantage point.

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Alisyn, just exactly as Omar was saying, we are seeing a shift now in the presence of police.

I'm going to pan my shot here so you can see. There are now officers that are staged near Precinct Three. There are officers here that are in riot gear. They have their tactical gear that's -- that's now in place. Now, they're also being augmented here by tactical personnel that you

can see. They're in their armored vehicles. And you've heard over the loudspeaker officers warning people to disperse, saying that this assembly here in this area has been deemed unlawful.

And now we see the police officers starting to stage here. They have batons. Again, something that we did not see last night as this occurred.

I'm going to pan over. I'm not sure if you can see the lighting is not great here, but there are a number of police officers that are now staging off in the distance. They are also in riot gear, standing in formation. They've been blocking traffic, telling people to leave, again, over in the location where we're at right now. You see that heavy police presence.

Beyond us, a police command center has now been staged in this area. We know that the precinct itself was torched last night, set fire to. So you can imagine just the damage that occurred inside that building. Officers bringing in these mobile command centers from which they're likely to quarterback a lot of their spots (ph) here today.

I talked to an officer just before I came on with you who said that we're going to see a large influx of people that are coming in from the police department, from all different sides. Their goal now, now that the vast majority of this crowd has left, is to try to secure this area to ensure that people don't come back, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: Josh, stand by there for a moment, if you will. I want to quickly go back to Omar.

Because what I want to make sure is not lost in this as we're seeing these remarkable pictures with this law enforcement presence directly behind you is the why. Why people have been out on the streets protesting, why this violence is taking place.

There is some action behind you. Hang on.

JIMENEZ: Yes. We've got one person being arrested here.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) JIMENEZ: We're media. Yes, we're good. Hold on. I got you, I got you. Hold on. They had us here. They had us here.


JIMENEZ: We're speaking with state patrol right now. Give us a second, guys. We can move back to where you'd like. We can move back to where you'd like here. We are live on the air at the moment.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are four of you, those security guards (ph).

JIMENEZ: This is the four of us. We are one team.


JIMENEZ: Put us back where you want us. We are getting out of your way. So just let us know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You in or you out? (ph)

JIMENEZ: Wherever you want us we will -- we will go. We are just getting out of your way when you were advancing through the intersection. So just let us know and we've got you.

And this is the scene here playing out in Minneapolis. This is part of the advanced police presence that we saw come over the course of really minutes when the local police showed up at the fire department or with the fire department, I should say, on the building we showed you that was burning.

This is among the state patrol unit that was advancing up the street, saying and scattering the protesters at that point for people to clear the area. And so we walked away.


JIMENEZ: I'm sorry?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're under arrest.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

JIMENEZ: Do you mind telling me why I'm under arrest, sir?

Why am I under arrest, sir?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Officer, he's with CNN, and he's on the air right now. He's on the air with CNN.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are arresting him live on CNN. We told you before that we are with CNN.

CAMEROTA: If you're just tuning in, you are watching our correspondent, Omar Jimenez, being arrested by state police in Minnesota. We're not sure why our correspondent is being arrested.

BERMAN: Hang on one second, Alisyn, let's listen in to what these officers are saying.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go back to the direction in which you came.

BERMAN: That is an American television reporter, Omar Jimenez, being led away by police officers. He clearly identified himself as a reporter. He was respectfully explaining to the state police that our CNN team was there and moving away as they would request.

And then, for some reason, he was just taken into police custody live on television.

I'm sorry. I did not mean to interrupt you, Alisyn. I just wanted to hear -- listen to see if we could hear more from the officers, the state police as this is going on.

CAMEROTA: Yes. We're trying to see what's going to happen. John, obviously, to the arrest.

LEONEL MENDEZ, CNN PHOTOJOURNALIST: Guys, we were just out here reporting on the closure of the streets. They just -- Omar was just arrested. I believe they're about to -- we're all about to be arrested. That's our producer.

CAMEROTA: Our CNN producer is being --

MENDEZ: I'm probably going to be taken in a minute.

CAMEROTA: Our CNN camera crew and our producer are being arrested right now on live television, in handcuffs.

BERMAN: I've never seen anything like this, Alisyn.

MENDEZ: Guys, what are you -- why are you arresting us?

We're just passing along the message, your message.

We're just out here doing our job as well as you are.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hands behind your back.

MENDEZ: Can you tell me whether --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're under arrest. Hands behind your back.

MENDEZ: I'm being arrested now?

I've got to put -- Can I put the camera down?


You are hereby ordered to disperse.

CAMEROTA: If you're just tuning in, this is our camera crew, our CNN camera crew being arrested by the Minneapolis State Police, we believe. The camera is now on the ground, because our cameraman has been handcuffed.

Our correspondent, Omar Jimenez, was also led away in handcuffs, as was his producer.

They were standing where they were told to stand previously by police. They were out of the way. We don't know why they are being arrested. They're not being given any explanation, as far as we can hear, for why they're being arrested. We don't know why they're being handcuffed and led away.

They are allowed to be reporting on the unrest that's happening right now. But for some reason the state police have decided that they need to be under arrest.


BERMAN: And just to be clear, Alisyn, having been in the middle of protests like this, I've never seen anything like this. I have never seen anything like this.

The camera is being walked away now. I don't know if this camera is still in the hands of our photojournalist or whether the police officer -- yes, this is the police carrying our camera right now, frankly, not aware that it's still rolling.

We have been listening in, and our team there has not been given any explanation for why they have been taken into custody.

And I just want to be clear, if you were watching what Omar was saying and listening to his reporting, he was explaining what had happened over the last few hours, and how law enforcement was arriving on the scene, and how they had dispersed the crowds, largely, and how for the first time, there was order in the scene.

Nevertheless, taken into custody. Our camera now on the ground, still rolling, still capturing these live images. We're going to keep on listening to this camera.

Josh Campbell, who I believe is not yet under arrest -- hang on one second. All right. The police are now saying they're being arrested, because they were told to move and didn't.

Now, we were on the air the whole time.

Leonel, our photographer, who still has communications with us, told us because they were told to move and didn't. If you were watching, you could see our team was very respectful to the law enforcement presence as it moved through the area.

Again, we continue to take in these live pictures. I want to stay on this picture if I can.

Josh Campbell, another CNN correspondent, is on a different part of the scene, not under arrest yet, I don't think.

Josh, if you're there, do you have any explanation as someone who has worked in law enforcement in the past, why they would take reporters into custody for doing their job?

CAMPBELL: No, John. It's just surreal. I can tell you, over where I am, which is right near Omar, what happens -- you know, and as folks who have covered this know, when you show up, you identify yourself to the police. That happened.

Obviously, they knew that these were correspondents. The same thing happened over here. I told a police officer that, you

know, I'm with the media. It's OK. You're allowed to be here. You're allowed to be over in this section.

I was moving around. And he said, Just don't get near this fire.

But that communication happens all the time. It's just unbelievable to think that, once our correspondents identified themselves, they -- they knew, seeing a camera crew -- as you know, it's not one person that does a live shot. You have a whole team with you. They knew what they were dealing with.

A lot of unanswered questions right there. I think we're going to need more information from the police about what just occurred.

CAMEROTA: Josh, not only that, I mean, what just happened live on television, as our viewers watched, was Omar Jimenez was doing a report. He was reporting on how the police had just showed up. The protesters had gone home, it appeared, at the moment.

And they approached him, and something that I've never seen before out on the streets covering, they circled him. So the police circled Omar and the crew, sort of surrounding him.

And Omar kept saying, just tell us where you want to be. We'll go. You just -- you know, he kept saying, We've got you. You just tell me. You point it out. We'll go there.

I mean, he was as cooperative -- This is the replay of Omar being arrested and handcuffed. He couldn't have been more accommodating.

He was standing away from the action. He was asking them where they wanted him. And instead of giving him any explanation, as you see right here, they handcuffed him.

CAMPBELL: Yes, exactly. They clearly knew who he was. And you know, if there was some type of imminent threat to someone, then you know, you'll see law enforcement officers try to move people away.

But again, this is clearly them knowing that they were dealing with journalists, knowing that this place has journalists around it. We've been in constant communication with the police, as Omar was just then. Identifying himself, telling them that he was live on the air.

He wasn't in the area. I'm sitting here watching this area. This isn't a location where there's an imminent threat. The police have that cordoned off over near where the fire department is battling this fire.

But again, just at a level of heavy-handedness that, certainly, we're not used to. But again, I think it goes back to, you know, there are a lot of questions that the local police here have to answer. They just added one more to the list when it comes to the types of approach that's being applied here for journalists that are trying to cover this story. BERMAN: All right, Josh, I want you to stay safe for a minute and

please stay alert and please keep us posted as to what you are seeing just so people know what they're seeing on the left-hand side of our screen.

That is a CNN camera still recording live right now, on the ground, unattended. Why? Because our CNN crew has been taken into custody and put under arrest by the Minnesota State Police.


Our cameraman tells us they were arrested because police claim that they were told to leave the scene and did not. If you were watching, you saw our crew being incredibly accommodating, asking police where they wanted to go.

Now our camera is on the move, still in police hands.

You saw Omar Jimenez, who was just doing a stellar job, telling us what was happening and who kept incredibly cool being led away, as he was about to report what's happened overnight. He was not able to.

So as we still continue to look at these live pictures, let me tell you what happened overnight.

We were reporting how the Third Precinct in Minneapolis had burned after violent protests there. But most importantly, we were going to tell you why this is happening.

This follows the death of George Floyd, who died in police custody while he was pleading for his life and he couldn't breathe, with a police officer's knee on his neck.

Yesterday, we heard from state prosecutors that they are not yet ready to file charges against the officers who have been dismissed from their jobs.


BERMAN: It does seem that these protests and the violence ticked up last night after those state prosecutors announced they were not yet ready to take action.

CAMEROTA: John, I was going to say, it looks like somebody else is being arrested. I mean, our camera is just capturing what's happening on the ground right now. I'm not sure if police know that our camera is still live and rolling, on the left-hand side of your screen. But it looked like somebody else there was in restraints, you know, behind their back with those sort of tie -- plastic tie restraints.

We're not sure -- we're not sure what's happening, because our crew has been taken into custody. But that is our camera on the left-hand side.

BERMAN: Right.

CAMEROTA: You see a police baton. It appears that the police are holding our camera. But we can't be sure exactly what's happening.

BERMAN: Can I -- for those of you just joining us right now --

CAMEROTA: For those of you -- yes.

BERMAN: -- I just want to make clear the CNN legal department is now involved, trying to get our crew out of police custody and safe. And I want to say their names out loud so their families know who we're talking about.

Correspondent Omar Jimenez, you saw him taken into custody and arrested on live television. Producer Bill Kirkos, you saw him taken into custody, arrested on live television. Our photojournalist, Leonel Mendez, you saw his camera being taken away and him being taken into custody.

And what you just saw there, I think the police finally realized that our camera was still taking pictures live. There it is again. That's our camera being taken into custody right now on live television.

We also have two security agents. I don't think I'm going to name them to protect their identities at this point. That's the picture on the right of Omar being taken into custody.

CAMEROTA: OK. I just want to hear, if we can hear what they're saying, though.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I told you before that we are with CNN.



CAMEROTA: That's -- that's the sound of Omar when he was being arrested and our crew was saying, "We've told you that we're from CNN. Why is this happening?"


CAMEROTA: You are watching our correspondent, Omar --


CAMEROTA: Yes. That was Omar. On the right-hand side of your screen, that was the moment that we were all confused and Omar, our correspondent, was being taken into custody, handcuffed.

And since then -- yes. Since then, our crew has also been taken into custody. We've lost communication with our photographer, who had been on a cell phone, telling us what was happening.

Our camera on the left-hand side, that's a live shot of our CNN camera that is on the move. We assume it's in the hands of police. I can see a police baton at times in that shot. We don't know where they're taking our camera. We -- our legal team is handling where they've taken our crew and whatever happens next.

BERMAN: I have to say -- I have to say, Alisyn, that it's just extraordinary that this happened at all. Equally extraordinary that our camera is being taken into police custody, and it is still recording what is happening. Again, never seen anything like this.

And one more thing I do want to say here. We are not the story tonight. This has been an incredible, extraordinary night in Minneapolis and around the country of protests and pain following the death of George Floyd.

But what this does illustrate is the incredible lack of order right now in that city. And the uncertainty and the free-for-all that has taken place over the last several hours. And this is just one more element of that.

Alisyn, I know you have Charles Ramsey on now.

CAMEROTA: Yes. And one more thing, John. I mean, as Josh Campbell said, and the heavy-handedness that we've seen that begs so many questions.

Chief Ramsey, I want to bring you in. I don't know if you've been watching live everything that's just unfolded. But does any of this make sense to you?


CHARLES RAMSEY, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Absolutely not. I mean, the state police are going to have a lot to answer for with this arrest here. It just -- it didn't make any sense to me.

I mean, he's standing there. He identified himself. You can see his credentials. You know, just move him to where you want him to be.

I don't know where the person in command of that platoon is, but that's an individual who is definitely not taking charge. There's no way something like that should occur.

There are times during chaos, like last night, for an example, where media gets mixed in with the crowd and sometimes, if a lot of people are being -- (AUDIO GAP) -- you may have a reporter in that group.

But this is a totally different -- (AUDIO GAP). I don't understand this at all. Believe me. This is -- it just makes no sense. They're just making things worse. They're not organized. They should already have a designated area for the media. And just simply, tell them to move to that area.

Now, if they refuse, that's different. But he clearly is saying, Hey, listen, I'm CNN. You know, tell me where you want me to go.

And so I don't get it. I do not get it. And I'm glad I'm not the head of that state police right now.

CAMEROTA: Yes. Chief, just to remind people in case they're just tuning in, our correspondent could not have been more cool and collected.


CAMEROTA: He was respectfully saying, I hear you. I'll go wherever you want me to go. CNN -- we're a CNN crew.


CAMEROTA: You tell us where you want us to stand, we will stand there. And they didn't give him much explanation for why they felt that they needed to be arrested, along with our crew and our -- our camera confiscated or seized.

Chief, stand by for a second, because we want to check back in with Josh Campbell, who is also on the street, very close to where Omar Jimenez was just arrested.

And Josh, what's the scene from where you are?

CAMPBELL: Alisyn, you see the police moving in now with greater and greater force.

I'm going to pan here in my shot that I have. There you see the National Guard.

Beyond them, there's a building that's on fire. We just heard an explosion here, some type of projectile. Clearly looks like there are -- there are protesters that are still in this area.

But as I pan over, you can see that there are now -- there's now a large gathering of riot police that have moved in. That's what you're seeing behind that armored vehicle there.

They were staged over near Precinct 3, which is just about a block away. They've now moved to this area. You're now hearing over the loudspeaker, saying that this is now deemed an unlawful -- I'll just let you listen in here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Unlawful under the laws in Minnesota. You are hereby ordered to disperse. If you do not disperse and stop all mindless (ph), disruptive behavior, you will be arrested. You are ordered to leave this area immediately.

BERMAN: Josh Campbell, it's John Berman here. Have you been approached by police where you're standing?

CAMPBELL: No, I can tell you my experience has been the opposite of what Omar just experienced there. Talking to police there, you know, I identified myself. I told them who I was with.

They said, OK, you're permitted to be in this area.

As a vehicle came by, they asked me to step outside of -- you know, outside of the street, which I did. And I -- you know, I asked them if I could move back in. They said yes, you're good to go. So again, what happened to Omar there was clearly a lot different and

just something that -- that we certainly haven't seen, where a journalist identifying himself covering a story has been taken into custody by the police.

Again, the police knew who -- they knew who our crew was, you know, who they consisted of. They saw the camera. They saw the live shot in progress. Omar identified himself very politely.


CAMPBELL: Yet, they still took that decision to make that arrest.

BERMAN: Josh -- Josh, I don't know if you can see what was happening to Omar from your perspective. And I know that our audience can't see you right now.

So let me just say something. And it is a statement of fact. You, Josh Campbell, are white. Omar Jimenez is not. I do not know if that played into this. But did you see what happened to Omar and his team?

CAMPBELL: I did not. And obviously, you -- what you just said crossed my mind, as well, about appearances here. I could tell you, I was treated much differently than he was. I'm sitting here talking to the National Guard, talking to the police. They're asking very politely to move here and move there.

You know, a couple times I've moved closer than they would like. They came to me and asked politely, Hey, can you move back. They didn't pull out the handcuffs.

So again, a lot different here than what Omar experienced.

CAMEROTA: And -- and Chief Ramsey, if you're still with us, I just want to tell people on the left-hand side of this -- I'm listening to the commands of the police or the National Guard there. They're telling people to go home.

On the left-hand side is our -- our live camera that is still on the move. We assume it is now in police custody after our.