Return to Transcripts main page

Cuomo Prime Time

President Trump Threatens Military Force If Violence Isn't Stopped; Widespread Looting in NYC before and after Curfew; Protests Flare in Cities Nationwide for Seventh Straight Night; Trump Vows to Deploy U.S. Military if States Can't Control Protests; Floyd's Brother Urges Peaceful Protest, Voting for Change; Curfews in Effect in Cities on Protest Night 7. Aired 12-1a ET

Aired June 02, 2020 - 00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[00:00:00]

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: And that's exactly what Sheriff Chris Swanson did. He walked with the protesters and he understood and he had a conversation with them.

And you met them where they are. And that's what we need. That's what America needs. Thank you for your service. I appreciate your joining us here on CNN.

SHERIFF CHRIS SWANSON, GENESEE COUNTY, MICHIGAN: Thank you.

LEMON: And thank you, everyone, for watching. Our live coverage continues now with my colleague, Mr. Chris Cuomo.

Chris, that's how you do it, brother.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: Well, I'll tell you what. They serve the community. They're supposed to be part of the community. The community is supposed to have the trust, that the police are a phone call away for them, not a moment away from coming after them.

And it takes time to build it and it's lost in a moment. So that sheriff was right. He was right to do what he did.

But as I heard -- I forget who it was -- I think it was Cedric -- said it on your show earlier tonight, it's important now but it's important when there isn't a dead black man in the street. On every days, ordinary days, that's when trust is built.

In a crisis, it's hard to build trust. But I think the discussions are important. Especially, because my brother, we're dealing in a vacuum. Ideally, the tone should be set at the top. And you and I should be talking about what leadership's doing.

Can leadership deliver on this?

Those are some heavy words, those are some big promises that they made.

Will they be able to deliver?

Will the communities believe it?

When will it happen?

And we're not there because the promises we're hearing from the top are some of the scariest rhetoric we heard.

LEMON: I got one thing I want to ask you before I let you go. And -- and --

CUOMO: No, I'm letting you go. You're on my clock right now.

LEMON: -- before I take my butt home --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: -- Jedi mind trick so I could get out of here. I was just going to say, don't do such a good job. You had me up late and I'm exhausted. And I'm up late and up early and, you know, haven't had a day off. So help a brother out. Just don't do such a great job because you make me watch you when you --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: You'll be home before I am. So let's switch it up and you get the coffee and the doughnuts tomorrow.

OK?

LEMON: I been eating way too many doughnuts on this quarantine.

CUOMO: We've become the nation's policemen as it is in terms of watching everything that's going on. Now we're on the diet.

LEMON: We joke but today was a very critical point in America's -- in the history of America. And, you know, as I said earlier, I take ownership of those words. This has nothing to do with you.

But I think, as I said, we are teetering on a dictatorship, when you think about what the -- what the president did. He can't carry out, legally, according to the experts I've spoken to and the historians, what he promised or what he wanted to do.

But, boy, it was certainly scary hearing him trying to do it and pushing those peaceful protesters back, all so he can have a photo op.

CUOMO: Well, there's no question that he has designs on autocratic powers. He sees them in other world leaders and he covets them. He is impressed by them when they use, you know, despotic power. He's impressed by that. He says it.

"You got to give it to Kim Jong-un, he knows how to keep his people in control. You got to give it to Duterte."

No, you don't give it to them. What you give them is both barrels of American freedom and that's why we fight around the world for people to have their own democracy. We don't do that here at home.

We do what you did tonight, Don, which is giving people a chance to speak and to be heard. I love you. I'll see you soon. Be safe.

LEMON: Good night, love you, too.

CUOMO: Ladies and gentlemen, Don Lemon.

I am Chris Cuomo. Welcome to a special midnight edition of PRIME TIME. This is a remarkable time in our American history.

The question is, how will it be remembered?

We're on the seventh night of racial justice protests. But there are also violent situations and terrible situations going on all over this country. And remember what we're in the middle of. We're in the middle of a pandemic.

These bizarre scenes, where people are running around on the street, with no regard for law, no regard for decency but they have masks on to protect against COVID-19, isn't that odd?

And we have a president, who should be doing what leaders do in situations like this, leading from the front. He was hidden in a bunker and then he didn't like the optics. So he staged one of the saddest public displays and stunts I've ever seen in presidential politics.

He, literally, gave a speech, where he paid sensitivity and mind to nothing that matters in the moment. He did nothing to make anything better. Literally, everything he said will foment tension in this country. There was not a piece of positive reinforcement.

And then, at the same time that he was saying he was an ally to peaceful protesters, he was having peaceful protesters removed from a place just a hundred -- few hundred yards from where he was, in rough fashion, by the way.

[00:05:00]

CUOMO: As rough as I've seen in Washington, D.C., peaceful protesters.

And why did he do it?

For a photo op. He had them shooed away to go stand in front of a church, holding a Bible. I don't even know what it means.

The church he stood in front of, St. John's Episcopal, is known for its posture of social justice and service in the community on that.

Look at him. He's going to stand with a Bible as if it is, somehow, symbolic of him, believing anything that's in it. As if, somehow, contact with the object would deliver some kind of love of mercy into him or some type of divine mandate.

What is he doing with the good book?

Holding it means nothing. Holding its truths in your heart is what matters. That's what the place he's standing in front of is all about. Maybe that's why he didn't go in.

Now the bishop from the diocese that that parish is in, that St. John's is in, it's boarded up but it is not damaged. She was outraged that Trump used St. John's for a photo op, for a message that, she says, is antithetical to the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Now although it should be our elected leaders, especially our president, the one person in this whole country who is supposed to take care of all of us, think about it, only one person gets that job, it was actually the Floyd family, the family of the victim, who had to play that role today, uniting everybody in a call of peace.

The people who have the most reason to be angry, to have their hearts filled with rage, they asked for calm. They asked for mercy. They asked for fewer demonstrations of anger.

Now are they being heard?

No. Another night of looting and arrests in many cities across America, particularly, New York City. And I got to tell you, I think a mistake was made here. The curfew was set at 11:00 pm. It was at least three hours too late.

The mayor, Bill de Blasio, welcome on the show, keeps saying no to invitations, keeps being invited, just so you know. He's got the platform here if he wants to defend his actions. Tomorrow night, there will also be a curfew. It will start at 8:00. Good move because tonight, it started too late.

Who says so?

Eyes on the street. CNN's Shimon Prokupecz was there.

Starting at 11:00 was a bad move.

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE PRODUCER: You know, Chris, I don't like to offer my opinion in, certainly, these kinds of situations but I think you're absolutely right, based on what I have seen.

Really, just before 8 o'clock, intense amount of looting. And what's really interesting is how organized, from what I can see, how organized these groups are. They are young. They are young men. They are young women. And they are running around this city, as we speak, together.

And for hours, you could hear the sirens and you can see the police cars going from scene to scene, from store to store, trying to chase them down, trying to stop them from looting a lot of the stores. They get away.

But I'm also told that there have been several arrests. So I'm outside Macy's here in Herald Square. Obviously, everyone knows this store. It's been looted. It was boarded up. They took the wood off there and they got inside.

And actually, police got here and chased several of the looters inside. They made several arrests.

But there are -- there's a store behind us with glass broken. We've seen so many stores, block by block, street by street here, from north Manhattan -- Upper Manhattan to Lower Manhattan.

In Union Square, where we were earlier when I was last on with you, we saw looting there. We're told a Best Buy was looted. All sorts of different stores.

What's also so sad in all of this, a lot of these stores have been closed now for months because of the pandemic, losing money, businesses that, you know, have been out of business now for months, not making any money and, now, being looted.

Everything taken out and now they have to repair the stores, fix the glass. So I don't know. You know, I think, as you said, Chris, I do think the curfew, in the end, is probably too late.

You know, friends are asking me, well, what happens now?

How do the police get this under control?

I don't know. I think tomorrow, the mayor, as you said, is going to have to answer those questions.

What more can they do?

They brought in more officers. They doubled the number of officers that were going to be dealing with this today and that didn't even seem to help.

I don't know if they got completely -- if they were completely caught off guard by this. Just how well organized these protesters were -- I mean, these looters, I should say, were -- is really striking to me.

[00:10:00]

PROKUPECZ: They would go to stores. They would break the windows. You know, they would use hammers. They would run off. And then others would come and then repeatedly come back.

So we'll see what tomorrow, what the mayor will have to say. I think he's going to have to answer a lot of tough questions, Chris.

CUOMO: You know, I tell you, I was having one conversation with a young man, who was involved in some of this ugly activity. And he was trying to run this misplaced righteousness that, you know, this is about Trump and eff Trump and this and that.

I said, no, no, no. What you're doing right now only makes his message stronger. He is trying to say that you are a problem, that you are something that needs to be dominated and eradicated and put in jail for 10 years to send a message of harshness.

That's what you're helping reinforce. You are reinforcing no resistance to Trump.

Don't kid yourself. If you're going to be selfish and do things and distract energy from a righteous cause, at least own what you're doing.

Shimon, be safe, you and the crew, let me know if there's anything we have to catch up with as the night continues.

All right. Now let's go to Jason Carroll in Brooklyn, the Barclay Center there, this magnificent structure they put in there, home of the Brooklyn Nets, has been a collection area and a starting point and an ending point for different situations and protests for the last couple of days. Jason is there now walking with a group.

What's the situation?

JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: You're absolutely right. We started at the Barclay Center several hours ago. And this is where the rest of this group is going to end up.

At one point, Chris, there were about a thousand folks who were out here, demonstrators, peacefully marching through the streets of Brooklyn throughout the night.

Now we're down to just about a couple hundred, I would estimate, from our vantage point. Again, we're just now a little bit past -- an hour past that 11 o'clock curfew and folks here are still marching, still demonstrating, still protesting.

Now I have to say, throughout all of this, for the past few hours, there have been a number of police patrol cars that have been following along. They've taken a nonaggressive stance towards this -- towards this group of people, allowing them to defy the curfew but allowing them to peacefully demonstrate.

Now I can only speak for the moment, obviously. So you -- you can't predict what's going to happen next. But up until now -- and we've been out here for several hours -- this has been a peaceful demonstration, which is much different, obviously, than what we've seen with -- what we've seen happening in Manhattan with some of the looting and the vandalizing. Have not seen that here tonight. Not seeing that with this group here tonight.

Again, when speaking to some of the people out here, Chris, it was really about the message. And, very early on, some of those speakers got up and said, we don't want you vandalizing in our name. We don't want you looting in our name.

What we want you to do in our name is to speak about the George Floyds of the world, to speak about police brutality. That's what we want to happen here tonight.

So as we continue to march at this late hour towards the Barclay Center, we have a number of patrol cars behind us, again, allowing these demonstrators to keep doing what they're doing, at least for now.

CUOMO: All right, Jason. Thank you very much. As always, stay in touch with what's going on.

Now an interesting point of conversation we're having in this country. People will look at this and then look at the ugliness. Look, that's protests. OK, yes, they're in violation of a curfew.

But you have to see what is behind the actions that you are judging in real time. OK. Many of you say, oh, so you like when you see people being violent?

Of course, not. No, this works. There's blood that's going through this. Nobody with blood going through their heart likes to see violence, likes to see anger and rage on display, wants to see property destroyed and looting. Nobody wants to see that.

But that can't be all you see, understand?

You have to ask why they're doing it.

"Savages." "Sons of bitches." "Thugs."

If that's what you want to see, we'll never get to a better place. I know the president reassured you on that level today. I know he made you feel it's OK to see these people as savages. And if they're white, then they're not savages.

But they're these outside groups that the Democrats are in control of. And they're trying to destroy him and destroy this country and your Second Amendment rights. He always throws that in. Out of context but on message.

So what he is saying is absolutely the wrong way to create fewer situations like this, no question in my mind.

The open question is, what is the right way to restore order and to bring about real change?

So we're not here, again. That is the question we'll take on right after this.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[00:15:00]

(MUSIC PLAYING)

CUOMO: The president calling out fringe elements that are here to take advantage of protest situations, it's the right call. They're bad -- they're bad actors. You got to root them out. Every police force says it. They're actually acting in very nefarious ways, secretive ways, organizing, bringing bricks, bringing incendiary devices.

You saw the two lawyers that are up on charges for throwing a Molotov cocktail into a squad car that was full of officers. They had more Molotov cocktails in their car. That's not protesting. There's nothing positive about that. It should be called out.

But ignoring why the real protesters, who are the overwhelming majority of everything we see everywhere, why they're there and not addressing that pain and that hurt and that pattern that's gone on for generations, that's really wrong.

And that guarantees we will be back here again because this won't be the last abuse of power. We both know that.

So what is the right way to speak?

What are the right things to address?

What will make things better?

I know that's a huge task and there are like a hundred things.

But we should be discussing it, don't you think?

We shouldn't just be looking at pictures of the worst things every night, right?

[00:20:00]

CUOMO: So let's bring in Angela Rye and move the bar at least a little bit.

Hello, my friend, I have been enjoying your podcasts from your home and the provocative discussions you've been having and the questions you've been taking on during the pandemic. I think you are a big fan of useful conversation.

We need it now because nobody wants to see the need for this, in this country, although you could argue this is the way things get changed that, if people aren't outraged and on the street and demanding things and, you know, causing this type of consternation, we'd never have change in this country.

But what is the way forward, Angela?

ANGELA RYE, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, Chris, I think our way forward involves a little bit more discomfort. The tough reality, for so many people, is that they have been crying out for so long.

Chris, I remember when Trayvon Martin was killed and we found out that George Zimmerman was not going to be found guilty, that he was, in fact, acquitted. I remember us staying up all night. We had these "no justice, no sleep" calls.

And to be here, so many years later, in the exact same situation, not just for George Floyd in Minneapolis but for Breonna Taylor in Louisville, Kentucky, and for Ahmaud Arbery in Brunswick, Georgia, and for Tony McDade in Tallahassee, for so many others, Chris, who never went viral and who don't have videos, this is the burden that we're carrying.

And to compound all of that with what's happening with coronavirus, it is just maddening. And I am sitting here, in front of you, with, like, just a heaviness on, like, on my chest. I could feel the pressure all day. I was crying and I would say for no reason but there are for so many reasons. There are thousands of reasons for my tears.

And they're all people who I haven't met but we're bound together by a common thing called injustice, that has been the very foundation of this country for 400 years.

And so, here we are, now, trying to figure out how we're going to get justice in a place that has never given us justice. We continue to hold out hope for a space that has never really honored that.

If we're honest, Chris, the biggest piece of legislation, the most -- the largest landmark legislation that has ever impacted black America is the 1964 Civil Rights Act. We are years beyond that. And I wonder, really, how far we've come.

Sure, we celebrated Barack Obama in 2008 and, in 2012, when we elected, not once but twice, the first black president. But this bigot in the White House now has now undone so much of that progress, so much of that progress, to the point where Barack Obama, himself had to say today in his statement on Medium, that protesting is the way to change, that -- that we have to demand what we want from our elected officials.

The folks who want our votes, we can make demands of them and we should make demands of them. We have every right to hold them accountable.

Donald Trump needs to be accountable for waste, fraud and abuse, frankly, at this point, for the ways in which he is abusing military, for the ways in which he abuses his executive powers.

And I really can't tell you what all of our options are. But what I can tell you is that we have to exercise every single one of them, that I am going to be out here with people who look like me and the allies who want to stand with us, for some people, for the first time ever, even though they've sat through so many other police killings.

I'm going to be making demands. I'm going to be pushing forth agendas. I am going to be asking members of Congress to introduce sweeping legislation because piecemeal by piecemeal bills won't be sufficient.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: But what do you say to people who say none of it will be sufficient?

It's never going to happen. Ro Khanna in the House, Kamala Harris, they want to pass laws about uniform standards of use of force analysis for across the country.

Never happen. Policing is a state-by-state issue. The Republicans won't go for it. You don't have both houses. Obama tried with his commission, had former Commissioner Ramsey on last night, was part of the commission on policing.

He was like, our report was all but thrown in the trash. And this is -- this is America. The majority doesn't embrace the problems of the minority. They will never change.

Why am I wrong?

RYE: Well, and I -- this is what I would tell you. You're not wrong and that is the unfortunate reality. And, until I'm right, Chris, this is the exact type of civil unrest that the country will not only continue to see but to engage in.

Dr. King said that riots are the -- are the -- is the voice of the unheard. It's the language of the unheard. So the reason for this outcry is because people are tired of being treated as invisible, as disposable, as voiceless and as though they don't matter. We have been screaming black lives matter for several years.

[00:25:00]

RYE: And, just now, people are finally beginning to accept that as truth and not as an argument, not as a damn argument. We are not saying that we're better than you. We're saying that we're equal to you, that the -- that the nightmare that our ancestors lived through, that we were three-fifths inferior, is not true.

We're asking people to summarily reject that. It has to be rejected in policy, too. And that is, I believe, the first frontier. We have to push for sweeping change because, if we don't, we will die. That is the reality. It's not about just an election.

CUOMO: I have one other thing for you. I have, like, a hundred things. But I have one thing.

I don't like the term ally. It, to me, speaks to a remoteness. I'm not your ally. I love you. You're -- you know, you're the TV family I choose. I have you on because I believe in you. I follow you because I believe in you.

If somebody were to come after you, I'd be there for you. I'm not your ally. It's not out of convenience. We don't have a deal. You know, all we have, in this country, is the bond of one to another. And I know it's not equal and you know it's not equal.

But we're supposed to fight for that together. I'm supposed to be fighting for that for you because that's what this country is about. That's all we have here.

(CROSSTALK)

RYE: But, Chris, you're supposed to. And the reality of it is, for too many, it has been a choice that they've ignored for decades, for centuries. Family by family, it's been something that has been passively put off.

And I don't know if the tipping point this time was that everybody was stuck at home, in quarantine for coronavirus and this was a face, a victim, someone who was suffocated that they couldn't turn away from. I don't know if that's what it was.

But what I know is, it's too late. And we have to take this moment to do something majorly radical to ensure that, for future generations, whether you call yourself an ally or not or stand or not, whatever you decide to call yourself, that gap has to be bridged because our survival, literally, depends on it.

And so I appreciate your allyship, I told you I've been crying all day. Maybe I'm also really glad that you got over coronavirus and I'm happy to see you back. But I think that the reality of it is, Chris, it's going to take a lot. And it's going to stretch some people.

It's going to stretch some implicit bias and some explicit bias. It's going to challenge the very foundation of white supremacy in this country. But all of that has to be uprooted. And it is going to be painful. But it's time for folks to be accountable.

CUOMO: It is. And it's -- it'll never change if white people don't make a change. It will never change. They have the power. Power changes culture. Power sets the tone. It's not going to be elected. It has to be other people who insist on it as a mandate, like we saw with gay marriage.

You saw private businesses saying, hey, you're not down with gay marriage, we're not going to support you in this state. We're not going to support you in this business because we've got to be more than allies. I'm not doing you a favor by caring about your equality. That's what this country is about.

(CROSSTALK)

RYE: So what do you call it?

If it's not an ally, you said it's TV family. What do you call it for people -- ?

CUOMO: Well, for you and me. We're -- we're countrymen. This is America. We're Americans. We fight for one another. It's all we got, in this country, is our connection with each other.

(CROSSTALK)

RYE: But, Chris, that is an ideal -- I think -- I think the fundamental challenge for me is that is an ideal that is so far out of reach for my people -- it sounds really good. It has never been attained. It hasn't been attained in small instances, you know?

CUOMO: You're right, because --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: -- because people in power haven't made it their fight.

That's what I'm saying is, look, am I going to understand what it's like to be a black man in America?

No, I don't have to. I just have to understand that that's what happens to black men in America. And I have to decide that that's not what I want. That's a big reason I do the job.

But until Americans and the majority see it as their problem because only they can fix it, we'll keep reliving these scenes, no matter how passionate the advocates are, no matter how good the arguments are. We could have a million Angela Ryes.

And as much of a blessing I'd see that as in my own eyes, we need a lot more than that. We can't do without you but we need a lot more than that. The majority must make this problem their own. But, Angela --

RYE: So what do you do?

What do you do, Chris?

When somebody says, OK, I want to be an ally, I want to be more than an ally. You know that dismantling white supremacy is a part of that. That means accepting that white privilege is real.

What's the first step to doing that, to the people who are reaching out saying, what do we do, if they're in positions of power?

CUOMO: Let's embrace the 12 Steps. First thing you got to do is recognize you got a problem. We're not even there yet. We got a president tonight, didn't even mention the problem, Angela. Did not mention the problem, other than to say, if you are out there, demonstrating against the problem and not, you know, on knees with your hands folded in front of your face, you are the problem.

We have to acknowledge that it is a problem that is holding us back in this country, that it's limiting our resources. That is our life's blood. We're not making the most of everything we have in this country.

[00:30:17]

And if you don't do that, if you don't harness your diversity, meaning you know, not just color but color, creed, and sex. If you're not harnessing them all, you're not going to be what you need to be in this country. It is literally existential for us.

ANGELA RYE, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I get that.

CUOMO: You have to admit you have a problem.

RYE: I want to know for you. It's like you're dead set on, we are TV family, I got your back specifically, but what about the black person, Chris, that you don't know? What's the thing that you're going to do with your position of power to make the road easier for that protester who you may have the least in common with? What about that person?

CUOMO: I think my show has to become something that talks about this when there's not someone dead in the street.

RYE: Yes.

CUOMO: And that's hard, because people don't want to watch. But you know what? I don't get watched that much anyway, so I don't really have -- I don't really have that as a defense. You have to do it because it's the right thing to do.

RYE: Yes.

CUOMO: You can't just do it when somebody's dead. I know that sounds like, no kidding.

I don't do it now. We do not do it now. I do not have pieces -- and, look, I know my show and my team goes out of its way to fight these fights. That's why this show was created. But it's still not enough. And that's one thing that I can do that I don't do now, and I will. That I can control. That I will do.

Angela, I've got to jump.

RYE: You know I'm going to hold you to that.

CUOMO: Good, you'll be a part of it. That's easy. Good. You just said yes to coming on the show more. This is a win-win, as we call it.

Thank you, Angela.

RYE: I appreciate you. You know that. And I'm so glad you are well.

CUOMO: And I need the accountability. I know I can always trust where your criticism is coming from. It's always coming from a good place. Not about agree, disagree. It's all about hearing it. And I always will.

RYE: That's right.

CUOMO: Be well. God bless.

RYE: Thank you. Thank you.

CUOMO: She happens to be right. I'm a big fan, but she happens to be right. You have to not talk the talk. You have to figure it out.

I know that a tale of two cities has been very resonant with a lot of people, but recognizing that we're a tale of two cities, well, now what do you do about it? How do you build those bridges? It's trite, but it's true.

All right, now, we're going to check in in Minneapolis. A very different kind of night tonight. Seven days since George Floyd was killed.

Sara Sidner has been set up at the scene that has become a sacred place there. There's trouble all around it. People are angry. But it's a little different there.

Sara, thank you for being patient when I was talking to Angela, but she was right to chase after me about what I want to do differently, myself, as a white guy with a platform in a position of power. If I'm going to say that it's up to the majority to fight, fight for the minority, what am I going to do? Fair question.

SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: But you're also an Italian-American, right, Chris? So --

CUOMO: Yes.

SIDNER: -- you've got a long history, as well. And I'm -- I'm happy to contribute if you need pieces. I'm happy to come out to the community to talk to the people that you want to -- you want to get on.

I will say this. A very different night. We're in a different spot. We moved away from the area that really has been a sacred place. There hasn't been violence at all there. People have said that, We are not going to dishonor this family, certainly not there. And the neighborhood -- neighbors are certainly not letting that happen, the residents in that neighborhood where George Floyd lost his life.

Yesterday, the police were talking about finding incendiary materials and accelerants like water bottles filled with gasoline. Today, it's a quiet scene. I mean, there is a curfew, but there was a curfew yesterday.

Today, you are not seeing the kind of reaction, explosive anger. And I suspect that, in part, you know that these things go in waves. People do get tired. They get disillusioned. And they realize that violence isn't the answer, because it's not going to help you, when you have to go to the store two weeks from now and it's still closed, because somebody decided to loot the store or break it open.

But I think part of this is also because we heard from Terence Floyd today. And what did he say to protesters? He spoke directly to them. This is one of the brothers of George Floyd. He showed up for the first time since his brother's death at the scene. He broke down as he looked at the mural that was made for his brother and saw hundreds of flowers and messages to the family.

And then he went to the spot where his brother passed away, and he kneeled, and the crowd kneeled with him, and he then spoke to the protesters who were committing acts of violence. Let's listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TERENCE FLOYD, BROTHER OF GEORGE FLOYD: I understand you're all upset. Like it was already said, I've got you all. I've got you all (ph).

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How about now? Let's hear a speech.

[00:35:06]

FLOYD: So, if I'm not over here wiling (ph) out, if I'm not over there blowing up stuff, if I'm not over here messing up my community, then what are you all doing? What are you all doing? You all doing anything. Because that's not going to bring my brother back at all.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNER: And he told people to stop. And, instead, educate yourself. And not just educate yourself in a general sense, but educate yourself about how to change the power structure. And he said that is to vote. He said it directly to the people that were there.

And there were some folks that tried to push back. And he shut them down and said, Don't do this in our family's name, because his brother would have been upset to see what happened. He said, We are a peaceful family, and we are a God-fearing family.

And that was his message to all of those hundreds of people out there, and I think a lot of people took that to heart -- Chris.

CUOMO: That's very interesting, if he had that kind of resonance, because he certainly had the poignance and the power of the message. You have to listen to his family. He is right. Unless you represent a victim yourself, you know, that you have one in your own family, that's what brought you out into the streets this time, you have to defer to them. Nobody has more reason to be feeling pain right now than those who are blood-tied to George Floyd.

Sara, thank you very much for the coverage and for the context, frankly. This is a story that's obvious on some levels, hard to understand on others for a lot of people. So thank you, Sara. I'll check back with you. You let me know as soon as you see something or hear something. We'll be right there.

Now, in terms of justice, defined as fairness under law, we know we're nowhere near it with the George Floyd case, right? And this videotape is not a "and also." It's not a comma in this case. It is the case. Without it, I don't think we'd be anywhere near where we are, in terms of prospects for prosecution.

Charges in this case, what will they mean for America? This one case, what will it be like when that case is over? Where does Philadelphia's -- this is a good question. Where does Philadelphia's former top cop see things headed after this case, depending on how it comes out? Next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[00:42:01]

CUOMO: Curfews are spreading throughout the country, night after night, because bad things are spreading throughout the country, night after night. You have a lot of looting. You have violence. You have fires.

Let's bring in former Philadelphia police commissioner Charles Ramsey about how this goes. It's good to see you again, Commissioner. Thank you very much for being with us, especially at this hour.

So let me ask you something that people are going to think, well, no, let me go with something that's good in general, and then I've got to ask you a question about the charges on this officer in Minneapolis, because I don't understand one of them. But, first, the importance of charges against the other three officers and the meaning of the outcome of the case in terms of change.

CHARLES RAMSEY, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: I think it's going to be incredibly important. This case is -- with the video, is just so brutal in terms -- and graphic when you look at it that it makes it -- it's difficult to understand how you could not have a conviction.

Now, we all know, have been around long enough to know that you never know what a jury is going to do. And I would assume that they're going to probably go with a jury trial.

But this is going to be one that, if it doesn't result in a conviction, especially for the officer who had his knee on Mr. Floyd's neck, then that's going to really cause a total breakdown, I think, of -- of what we see now. I mean, I think it's going to be even worse if that happens.

As far as the other three goes, that might be a little bit more difficult, but in my opinion, they're complicit, just like the chief said. I think they ought to be charged.

I think the key there and from everything I've seen and read is that, at the point in time when they check for a pulse and then they stay, and the officer continued the pressure on his neck for another two minutes and 53 seconds or so, I mean, they knew that this man was not breathing. They knew he possibly was in the process of dying, and yet, they failed to do anything at all.

I mean, to me, they are just as guilty as the individual who had his knee on his neck. I don't see the difference.

CUOMO: A couple short-answer questions. All right. So I have one quick follow-up on that. If I drive the car and you rob the bank, I get stuck just as bad as you. Even if I didn't have a weapon.

RAMSEY: Exactly.

CUOMO: Even if I never entered the bank. Why doesn't that translate into a case against cops?

RAMSEY: Well, first of all, I think in the long run it will. But because police officers have unique authority and duties, and they have responsibilities under the law, you have to first show that they're acting outside of their duties and responsibilities under the law.

CUOMO: OK.

RAMSEY: And so a lot of times, it's great. It's not really black or white. This time, however, I do think it's more black-and-white.

CUOMO: Right.

RAMSEY: In many cases it's not, and that's why it's difficult.

CUOMO: I can't wait to hear from the officers, and I hope we do. Why they didn't think to say anything about what Chauvin was doing to Mr. Floyd. Why they did nothing.

The other short question I have is, why were they there so long? You know, the job is to, you know, even if it was over a fake 20-dollar bill and you send all these cops, you know, you got him out of the car in cuffs. Why didn't they just put him in a cruiser and take him away? Why did it take so long, this stop?

[00:45:15]

RAMSEY: I have no idea. They did walk him to the car. He was already handcuffed. He might have stiffened up when they got ready to put him in the cruiser.

Let me tell you. That's not unusual. And then you talk to the person and, after a period of time, usually they get in. If not, you call for a wagon, because it's easier to get a person in a wagon than it is into an SUV or a sedan.

But in any event, you don't do what they did.

CUOMO: Right.

RAMSEY: That makes absolutely no sense at all.

CUOMO: Now, the charges -- The charges against Chauvin, now, you can always add charges. Just for people at home, obviously, the commissioner knows he's been teaching me about law enforcement for 15 years. But the -- You can add charges. OK?

By the way, that's why I don't buy the -- you don't want to arrest anybody until you have a case. You can arrest and you can re-arrest. It's not double jeopardy the way we think about it in the law. But let's put that to the side.

The third-degree murder charge in Minnesota is a funky statute, Commissioner. I don't know if you had a chance to look at it. It's a depraved mind murder. Depraved mind murder is a very weird thing in the law.

First of all, not easy to get a conviction on it. Not a good record in Minnesota with it. I think they've only gotten, like, a dozen or so convictions on that statute.

Interestingly, Mohamed Noor, the police officer who shot a white woman, they got him on it. But I think if you reverse the colors, it would have been an interesting different piece of jurisprudence. There, you had a brown cop and a white victim. I wonder if you switched it, how would it have gone with that statute and that prosecution.

But it's a weird law, depraved mind murder. Basically, you have to show in the law that the person was thinking about something that was so eminently dangerous that, even though they didn't intend to kill, that was the likely outcome. And it requires you to get deep into the head of the defendant, and as we both know, that's very tricky to do in the law.

You know, second-degree murder is just showing criminal negligence. You know, it makes me wonder about the charging here. That's a tricky statute. They don't win on it that often.

RAMSEY: Well, it is a little tricky, but I -- I think they may have also been thinking about placing a charge on this individual immediately, just to be able to hold him, getting him into custody. They could always upgrade. I know the attorney general just got the case. It's very possible they may upgrade.

But when you look at that video -- and again, you can't get into a person's head, necessarily. But when I look at that, that's one of those things that, you almost know it when you see it. I mean, he's got his knee on this guy's neck. He's got his hand in his pocket, and very nonchalant. Just killing this man.

I mean, I don't know what the heck he was thinking, but it sure wasn't, I need to protect his life, which is a duty, a sworn obligation of a police officer, is to protect life. That certainly was not on his mind.

CUOMO: And he had people begging him to take his knee off the guy's neck, too. Not the other crops.

RAMSEY: Exactly. Exactly.

CUOMO: But he had people there begging him.

RAMSEY: And the man saying he can't breathe. I mean, you know, it's just -- it reminds me of the Eric Garner situation. This is far worse than Eric Garner with the "I can't breathe."

And not only did he have his knee on the neck, he had two other officers helping to hold the man down. He was already handcuffed.

So you can't get in his mind, but this is one of those things that, you know, you may not be able to really, you know, define it clearly, but you know it when you see it. I mean, when I see that, that's the first thing that comes to mind, is that, you know, this guy just went off and just killed this man. I mean, it is truly some form of murder. I don't know which degree, but it is some form of murder.

CUOMO: Sir, it is always a pleasure. Thank you, especially at this hour. Thank you to help -- for helping me and the audience. I appreciate it. God bless and be well. RAMSEY: Thank you.

CUOMO: Let's take a quick break. When we come back, we'll take you around a survey of the country and how it's going tonight in the wake of seven days since George Floyd's death. Next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[00:53:17]

CUOMO: All right. Curfews. They're not a suggestion. They give an extra set of legal responsibilities and ramifications to the cops. Soo some cities are cracking down on protesters who defy curfews. One of them, Oakland, California. More than 40 people have been arrested for exactly that.

Police and protesters clashing at one point. Tear gas used in response to rocks and bottles being thrown.

CNN's Dan Simon joins me now.

What was the state of play like? How did it finish?

DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, hi, Chris.

We just saw the last of more than 40 protesters who were detained, who were arrested after violating the curfew. Obviously, Oakland is serious about this, and they're serious about it, because this city, downtown Oakland, has seen an incredible amount of looting over the past few days.

If you look through downtown, pretty much every building that you see has the -- has the wooden boards, and they're trying to protect their property. So much has been destroyed. So much has been damaged.

So Oakland, they established this curfew today. This was the first night for it. We did have more than 15,000 people, Chris, take to the streets in Oakland. A lot of young people.

There was a rally at a high school. It was a -- it was a very peaceful protest. Everybody was happy with how that went.

And then the call came out to disperse. A lot of people stayed. Some bottles and rocks were thrown at police, and then they moved in. They boxed these protesters in, and then they just decided they were going to arrest them -- Chris.

CUOMO: And what does that mean now, in terms of going forward? Curfew stays in place. Are you starting to see any pattern in familiar faces among the protests? Can you put any meat on the bones of this suggestion about outside agitating groups?

[00:55:07]

SIMON: Well, I think this -- this curfew is going to stay in place for the next few days. Clearly, it's working, because we did not see the vandalism tonight in downtown Oakland.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can I tell you something? (UNINTELLIGIBLE) killed (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

SIMON: Clearly, what Oakland is trying to do is they're trying to thwart the vandalism, and that's why this curfew is in place. It seems to have worked tonight. We have not seen the vandalism tonight, Chris.

In terms of what we're seeing, though. Most of the --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're late. You're late. You're -- late.

SIMON: As we've alluded to, to this repeatedly, during the day, these protests are incredibly peaceful, Chris. And today with more than 15,000 people taking to the streets in Oakland, it was quite a sight to see, to see a lot of teenagers who participated in this protest.

And, you know, that's really what officials wanted to stress today, at least the organizers who put these protests on. They said, Look. Look at the young faces. Look at the civic activism that we're seeing in Oakland. Look at the activism that we're also seeing in San Francisco.

So that -- that's really what they wanted us to take away today, the organizers. And hopefully, that is the message that ultimately carries through, Chris.

CUOMO: Dan, thank you very much. Stay safe, you and the team. Appreciate it. Be well.

All right. We're going to have more from the ground in New York City, where there has been widespread looting. The curfew there was at 11 p.m. Should have been a few hours earlier. We'll show you why, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

END