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Jake Tapper's Interview With Colin Powell; Police Under Fire For Excessive Force, Lack Of Accountability; New York Mayor Lifts Curfew After Night Of Large Peaceful Protests; Protests Against Racism Organized Around The World. Aired 2-3p ET

Aired June 07, 2020 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[14:00:16]

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN HOST: Hello, everyone. Thank you so much for joining me this Sunday.

I'm Fredericka Whitfield.

With begin with a nation pushing for change following 12 straight days of protests in cities large and small. And now those protests have extended around the world. Even more are taking place today demanding an end to systemic racism and police brutality following the death of George Floyd.

On Saturday, Washington, D.C. saw its largest crowds since the demonstrations began. And more large crowds are gathering there today as you see.

And we are seeing some very powerful images of defiance. Washington Mayor Muriel Bowser and Congressman John Lewis, a civil rights icon, standing shoulder to shoulder on the very street, 16th Street Northwest, leading to the White House's front door. And standing along that street with big, bold yellow letters, "Black Lives Matter". Those protests largely peaceful.

Now President Trump who initially called on governors to dominate protesters says they'll start the process of withdrawing National Guard troops from the nation's capital.

This comes as a new poll shows most Americans, 80 percent, believe the situation in the U.S. is out of control with many of those polled referencing the handling of the protests and the ongoing coronavirus pandemic.

This morning one of the most revered military leaders in modern American history took aim at President Trump over his handling of the situation and much more. General Colin Powell, also former secretary of state, sat down for an exclusive interview with CNN's Jake Tapper.

Here's what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Let's start right now with the extraordinary comments this week from several top former military officials including former secretary and General Jim Mattis condemning President Trump's actions against protesters, his desire to have 10,000 active U.S. military in the streets of this nation.

The President's former chief of staff General Kelly said he agreed with Mattis. Retired General John Allen says the President's threat to deploy U.S. military against American citizens quote, "may well signal the beginning of the end of the American experiment".

Take a listen to what Allen told me Thursday.

GENERAL JOHN ALLEN (RET.), U.S. MARINE CORPS: I never believed that the constitution was under threat until recently. And I have concerns about that. We should all be very attentive right now to how the rule of law is being administered in this country.

TAPPER: What is your response to what's been going on the last week -- General?

GENERAL COLIN POWELL, FORMER U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, first, thanks very much, Jake. I'm very happy with what General Allen said and all the other generals, admirals are saying, and diplomats are saying.

We have a constitution and we have to follow that constitution. And the President's drifted away from it. I'm so proud of what these generals and admirals have done and others have done.

But you know, I didn't write a letter because I made my point with respect to Trump's performance some four years ago when he was running for office. And when I heard some of the things he was saying it made it clear that I could not possibly vote for this individual.

The first thing that troubled me is the whole birthers' movement, and birthers' movement having to do with the fact that the President of the States, President Obama, was a black man. That was part of it.

And then I was deeply troubled by the way in which he was going around insulting everybody. Insulting Gold Star mothers, insulting John McCain, insulting immigrants. And I'm the son of immigrants. Insulting anybody who dared to speak against him. And that is dangerous for our democracy, it's dangerous for our country.

And I think what we're seeing now are those massive protest movements I have ever seen in my life. I think this suggests that the country is getting wise to this and we're not going to put up with it anymore.

TAPPER: And former defense secretary General Mattis said quote, "Donald Trump is the first president in my lifetime who does not try to unite the American people, does not even pretend to try. Instead, he tries to divide us."

It sounds like you agree with that. POWELL: You have to agree with it. I mean look at what he has done to

divide us. Forget immigrants. Let's put up a fence in Mexico. Forget this, let's do this. He's insulting us throughout the world. He is being offensive to our allies. He is not taking into account what our foreign policy is and how it's being affected by his actions.

So yes, I agree with General Allen, I agree with all of my former colleagues. And remember I've been out of the military now for 25 years and so I'm watching them closely because they all were junior officers when I left. And I'm proud of what they're doing. I'm proud that they were willing to take the risk of speaking honesty and speaking truth to those who are not speaking truth.

[14:04:57]

TAPPER: We have seen tens of thousands of protesters taking to the streets this week in opposition to racial injustice and police brutality. What's been your personal reaction to this moment? Do you think that the country is in something of a turning point?

We are in a turning point. I mean the Republican Party, the President thought they were sort of immune. They can go say anything they wanted. And even more troubling, the Congress would just sit there and not in any way resist what the President is doing. And the one word I have to use with respect to what he's been doing for the last several years is a word I would never have used before; I never would have used with any of the four presidents I've worked for. He lies. He lies about things. And he gets away with it because people will not hold him accountable.

And so while we're watching him, we need to watch our Congress. I watch the Senators heading into the chamber the other day after all this broke. With the reporters saying what do you have to say? What do you have to say? They had nothing to say. They would not react.

And so we're not a country of just the President. We have a Congress. We have a Supreme Court. But most of all we have the people of the United States, the ones who vote. The ones who vote him in and the ones who vote him out. I couldn't vote for him in '96 and I certainly cannot in any way support President Trump this year.

TAPPER: So yes. I know you didn't vote for him in 2016. I assume based on the fact that you approved Joe Biden when then Senator Obama picked him to be his running mate in 2008, I assume you're going to be voting for Joe Biden?

POWELL: I'm very close to Joe Biden on a social matter and on a political matter. I've worked with him for 35, 40 years. And he is now the candidate and I will be voting for him.

TAPPER: Let me ask you. During the Rodney King riots in 1992, you counseled then-President George H.W. Bush on a speech he was about to give. You wrote about this very movingly in your book. You wrote quote, "I read it with dismay." This is the first copy of his speech. "I thought the tone was all wrong. Yes, the rioting was criminal and law and order had to be restored. But the violence had not incubated in isolation. It had deep social roots. The speech as it stood recognized only the former and ignored the latter."

"Do the law and order bit," you said, "but there's language here that's only going to fan the flames. Turn down the heat, I suggested. Get some reconciliation into the President's message."

And President George H.W. Bush did take your advice back in 1992. He talked about how he was disappointed that the cops who beat Rodney King had been acquitted and on and on.

President Trump has been emphasizing law and order. Do you think that he is talking enough about reconciliation and empathy and what the people in the streets are calling for in his message in any way?

POWELL: No, he is not in any way that I recognize. He always is shooting toward his base. I remember the Bush conversation very, very vividly because at the same time we had to bring law and order back into the streets and we worked with the state of California where it happened in Los Angeles, the riots.

And the President called me and said we may have to do something. I said, Mr. President, go to the governor. The governor has the National Guard. If the National Guard can't do it, then you come back to me with a decision and we will send in federal troops. And we did and we brought things under control rather quickly.

but the President always followed the law, followed the constitution, worked with the community and we brought stability finally. It was a bad scene but we got over it rather quickly.

TAPPER: Are you going -- are you willing to campaign for Joe Biden for president?

POWELL: Well, I haven't been asked and I don't think I will be. Campaigning is not my strong suit. And I will be speaking for him but I don't plan to make campaign trips.

TAPPER: We should note that in addition to the role that you have assumed in American society, you also came in third in the electoral college in 2016 because some rogue electors voted for you so you're actually the third place finisher in 2016 even though you didn't even campaign in any way then.

POWELL: That's true. I had to read it in a newspaper. I called my wife. Can this be so? And with three electors in the state of Washington. and it was amusing. And I have clipped out the article and I have clipped out the instructions that the House of Representatives put on there in their census. And it's now in my library at the National War College.

So it was charming. President kind of misrepresents what the final count was. I got three. I beat everybody else behind me. And it was amusing but that's all there was to it.

[14:09:54]

POWELL: But three electors felt that they had the authority to change what they were planning to do. I think they've been fined for it but it's a symbol of the kind of system we have, a democratic system that our founders thought through rather carefully and thoughtfully. And now we'll see how it works this year.

I think this year is going to be a different kind of year. We have done things that have offended just about everybody in the world. Our friends are distraught with us. We are down on NATO. We are cutting more troops out of Germany. We have done away with our contribution to the World Health Organization. We're not that happy with the United Nations. And just about everywhere you go you will find this kind of disdain for American foreign policy that is not in our interest.

And we have to get on top of this. We have to start acting seriously. How can you say that we're going to take troops out of Germany but we're also thinking of putting more in and we're going to create a new headquarters in Germany that was a headquarters I commanded 25 years ago?

We have to make up our mind in what we're doing but it seems to all come out of the White House without consultation with our Joint Chiefs of Staff. This is not the way the system is supposed to work.

And until the President realizes that he needs to understand the constitution, understand the restraints on him and his authority, and talk openly with his military authorities about what is the right thing to do and not fire them when he doesn't get the answer he likes.

TAPPER: I want to ask you about foreign policy as a former secretary of state. The Chinese government is under a lot of scrutiny for how it handled the coronavirus pandemic early on as well as its recent anti- democratic crackdown in Hong Kong.

Two years ago you said we shouldn't create a Cold War situation with the Chinese. Are we in one, do you think?

POWELL: We're in a bad situation right now because we're fighting over things that I don't think we need to fight over. The Chinese did not do well at the very beginning of this virus crisis but at the same time it was our intelligence community that was telling the administration, telling the President beginning in December through January, February and March that we had this. And the President wouldn't respond to it.

They kept trying to see if there's somebody else to blame and so in order to get out of this we're now blaming the Chinese for everything.

Our relationship with the Chinese during my time as chairman or my time as secretary of state was a healthy one. When they did things we didn't like, we told them about it. But more often, we were speaking to them as fellow individuals and a government that we could speak to.

I did a lot with the Chinese. Disagreed with them when they had to be disagreed with but at the same time respected them and listened to what their point of view was right now -- then. And right now we ought to be listening carefully to what they're doing in Hong Kong and we should not take action that just infuriates the situation and makes the situation worse.

TAPPER: Let's talk more -- continue to talk more broadly about the role of the United States in the world. The editorial board of "The Financial Times", a leading newspaper in the U.K. wrote an editorial titled "America's battered moral standing". And they wrote in part, quote, "Donald Trump is handing the world's autocrats a propaganda coup. Never before has a U.S. president demonized in blanket terms those protesting against injustice. If China were to send its tanks into Hong Kong, would the world listen to what the U.S. Senate thought."

Do you agree that our moral standing as Americans is being battered because of the way -- the attitude President Trump has not only to our allies but to citizens protesting peacefully?

POWELL: Our moral standing has been demonized by not only the world is thinking but they're just looking at us. They're looking at these demonstrations. They see that these are demonstrations that are justified and not to be criticized.

They see that George as the President called him was murdered. And the President comes out saying George is looking down from heaven and blessing what I'm doing. How can you expect anybody to believe things like that?

That's the kind of language we see coming from overseas. And the overseas clients that we have, our friends and some of our adversaries looking at how we are taking care of our people.

Are we insulting everybody? Are we going after immigrants? They don't understand this. I'm the son of immigrants. I wouldn't be here if my parents did come here in banana boats in the 1920s.

This is America. This is who we are. And the world doesn't understand.

TAPPER: President Trump said this week that it's common sense for Russia to be allowed to rejoin the G-7 after Russia was expelled after it annexed Crimea in 2014. What do you think of that? Should Russia be allowed to rejoin the G-7?

POWELL: Let me answer it this way. Why is he making this decision all by himself at the same time that Russia had been listed as one of our four enemies that we have to be dealing with? In reality they're not. They're not one of our four enemies.

[14:15:02]

As one Israeli prime minister said to me in a very simple way. Colin, we have lost our enemies. Now all we have are problems. We have problems and so we have a situation where the Pentagon has identified four enemies -- China, Russia, Iran and North Korea. Not one of them is about to attack us right now. We're sending huge sums.

We need to get to those problems in Afghanistan, Somalia, elsewhere and start to help to solve those. And so the world is listening and what are they hearing? They're hearing this -- we don't like immigrants. We don't want them in. Let's kick them out.

We are hearing that we don't like so many of our ethnic people, the ethnic slices that America represents. We don't like that. And they speak out against it.

It is our strength. It's been our strength for 200 years. And we ought to stick up for our immigration policies. We have to stick up for our minorities. We have to put more money into lower income classes of Americans. We need to get our kids educated -- white and black, all of them.

Get educated like I was educated in the public school system of New York. And I'm now a graduate of a public college in New York. And have been rather successful with this public school education.

That's the kind of education all of our young people should have and it is a major priority in my lifetime and among my friends.

TAPPER: Last question for you -- sir. And we really do appreciate your time today.

There are a lot of independent voters out there or moderates -- Democrats and Republicans -- who might be concerned that the Democratic Party is drifting too far to the left. And they hear your comments about President Trump. Why is it so important to you that President Trump not be re-elected?

POWELL: Because I think he has been not an effective president. He lies all the time. He began lying the day of inauguration when we got into an argument about the size of the crowd that was there. People are writing books about his favorite thing of lying and I don't think that's in our interest.

I didn't vote for him in 2006 (SIC). The situations of 2020 in my mind in my life has gotten worse.

Every American citizen has to sit down, think it through and make a decision on their own. Don't listen to the -- everybody out there, don't read every newspaper. Think it through. Use your common sense and say is this good for my country before you say this is good for me.

We have a lot of people who are earning great wealth and when I've talked to them they said, well gee, the economy is doing great, I'm doing great. The economy exists for all of the American people, not just you doing great or me doing better.

What we have to do now is reach out to the whole people. Watch this demonstrations, watch these protests. And rather than curse them embrace them to see what it is we have to do to get out of this situation that we find ourselves in now.

We're America. We're Americans. We can do this. We have the ability to do it. And we ought to do it. Make America not just great but strong and great for all Americans, not just a couple.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: General Colin Powell.

Well, it seems President Trump also watched that interview this morning. Shortly after it aired he issued a stinging set of tweets directed at General Powell, calling the retired Desert Storm and Vietnam veteran a real stiff and blaming him for getting the U.S. into the war in Iraq. The President even blasting Powell as overrated.

It's worth noting this, Powell did not support President Trump during the 2016 campaign. And you'll recall that he actually objected to the Iraq war and the weapons of mass destruction.

And moments ago Joe Biden tweeted his thanks to Powell saying, "This isn't about politics. This is about the future of our country. Grateful for your support, Secretary Powell."

All right. Since the George Floyd protests, motivated protests began we have seen several more incidents of excessive force by police. More police officers facing charges and how hard it is to break rank and prosecute police.

And then join me tonight for "UNCONSCIOUS BIAS: FACING THE REALITIES OF RACISM". Right here on CNN at 10:00 Eastern.

[14:19:18]

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WHITFIELD: A grim new milestone in the global coronavirus pandemic. Just moments ago, as you can see on the right side of your screen there, the death toll here in the U.S. crossed 110,000 deaths; around the world more than 400,000.

A police officer in Virginia is now facing assault and battery charges after tasing and arresting a disoriented black man without obvious provocation. The Fairfax County police chief releasing body cam footage of the incident calling the officer's actions criminal.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is he wanted?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pull over. Pull over.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, no, no.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Anthony, relax. Anthony, relax. Anthony, you are --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: And this as two police officers in Buffalo, New York are charged with assault after violently pushing a 75-year-old man to the ground earlier this week, as you see right there.

Let's talk about all of this and the climate of things Joining me right now top discuss is Cheryl Dorsey, a retired LAPD sergeant and now an advocate for the victims of police shootings. Good the see you. And Marc Morial, the president of the Urban League, a civil rights attorney and a former mayor of New Orleans. Good to see you as well.

All right. So Marc --

MARC MORIAL, PRESIDENT, NATIONAL URBAN LEAGUE: Thanks you.

[14:24:46]

WHITFIELD: -- let me begin with you because, you know, just as we are seeing more video of the brutality that has been going on, you know, for years. People have had complaints for decades. We're also witnessing more charges now being pressed against officers accused of criminal behavior.

So what challenges do prosecutors traditionally face in pursuit of going after police officers for arrests and/or indictment?

MORIAL: I think the challenges that they face is that the laws -- both federal laws and laws of many states -- skew towards wide discretion for police officers.

And then the climate of public opinion in many communities has been to give the police officers even more than the benefit of the doubt, to give them all doubt. And I think that that climate of protests, the climate of public opinion, the call for police reform I think is beginning I hope to change how the public looks at these.

What has happened in the age of technology is that video cameras are capturing incidents that have been going on ad infinitum. And these video cameras, whether it's 17-year-old girl in -- young lady in Minneapolis, or the people who caught the Buffalo police officers pushing the senior citizen down, or now this incident in Fairfax County -- there's more public transparency.

The public can see that these have not been made-up stories or fictional accounts and it basically takes away from police officers the thing that many became very professional at doing -- constructing alibis and false narratives to protect themselves against what really happened.

WHITFIELD: And then Cheryl -- despite that video of police officers pushing the 75-year-old man, listen to what the district attorney prosecuting the cases against those officers in Buffalo had to say in response to critics yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN J. FLYNN, ERIE COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: This particular assault charge in the second degree is a felony. Now again, there may be some who say that, you know, that I'm choosing sides here by arresting and prosecuting police officers. And I say that's ridiculous. I'm not choosing sides. (END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: Wow. Choosing sides. You know, to say that, did that underscore that prosecutors face pressure from municipalities, police departments or perhaps police unions not to pursue prosecution of police?

CHERYL DORSEY, RETIRED LAPD SERGEANT: Absolutely. I mean listen, if he's on the side of anything it's the side of right. And so we know that police chiefs and certainly presidents of police unions haven't seen the murder of a black man or woman that doesn't excite them. And so thank goodness that this prosecutor has the (INAUDIBLE) of fortitude to stand up against this kind of foolishness.

But you know, Fred -- what needs to happen is police chiefs need to be held accountable just like their officers need to be held accountable. And the community can do that. Officers can easily be removed from the field, and I know this to be true, because I was removed for coming to work with a cellophane blue color on my hair.

And if an officer demonstrates like Chauvin, the subject of 18 personnel complaints, that he doesn't have the skill set or the temperament to be in the field, if at least because of due process, police officers' bill of rights, implied immunity and everything else that covers them.

If you can't get them off the job at least get them out of the public domain. Put them on the desk until you can formulate some sort of a plan, policy to remove them completely. It's offensive to think that defunding a police department somehow is going to stop a Derek Chauvin, a Ray Tensing, a Michael Slager and the others from killing us with impunity.

WHITFIELD: And then Marc -- you know, last -- there's still the issue of trust, right? Because as in the case of the Buffalo police, the two officers who are being disciplined, facing charges now, at first police leadership said, no, he wasn't pushed down, the 75-year-old man. He slipped and he fell, even though everyone has seen the videotape and it was clear his fall came after the push.

So it's trying to manipulate or tell a very different story. Almost as if to say you didn't see what you saw. That is problematic when you're trying to build trust.

MORIAL: Let me tell you. Police leadership that instinctively wants to defend the men and women in the field is anachronistic leadership. Police chiefs and police leadership owe their first obligation to the citizens of the community. And what the citizens in the community want is truthfulness. They want transparency and they want clarity and action when there's been wrongdoing.

[14:29:47]

MORIAL: So in Fairfax County, I would note that the police leadership there released the tape and terminated the officers, relieved them of their duties and referred the matter to the district attorney who seems to be poised or has already brought charges.

[14:30:00]

So, swift action, transparency, decisiveness, a police chief does not have to wait until a prosecutor makes a decision to determine the departmental rules have been violated and to issue swift and decisive discipline. And I think any reform effort has to basically reform the way discipline works.

And police unions are too powerful. In many instances, there are obstacles to reform. They stand in the way of the reforms that are needed and I think state legislatures and city councils and mayors need to stand up to the unbridled power of police unions.

When they have unprecedented power over terminations, over transfers, over disciplinary rules, I think that goes beyond the role of a union.

WHITFIELD: And, quickly, Cheryl, yes or no, do you see a turning point as it pertains to police -- the instinct of administrative duty as the punishment, and now, we're seeing perhaps an uptick in the pursuit of indictment, arrest, charges of officers suspected of criminal activity?

CHERYL DORSEY, RETIRED LAPD SERGEANT: I'd like to be hopeful, but, not, not really, because we still have mayors and police chiefs who come in front of the bank (ph) of cameras and lie, mitigate and minimize that bad behavior. And officers here, they know and they don't change the behavior.

WHITFIELD: All right, we'll leave it there. Thank you so much, Cheryl Dorsey, Marc Morial, always good to see you both.

MORIAL: Thank you for having me.

DORSEY: Thank you.

WHITFIELD: protesters in huge numbers have filled the streets of New York City. So why lift the city's curfew a day early? We're live on the ground with a view today.

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[14:35:00]

WHITFIELD: The cities of Atlanta, Washington, D.C. and Los Angeles lifting curfews, now, New York City, Philadelphia and Buffalo have done so, as well, this after Saturday's protests across the country appeared to attract the largest crowds yet. We have a team of correspondents covering the latest developments. Let's begin with Evan McMorris-Santoro in New York.

Evan, are those peaceful exchanges between law enforcement and, you know, citizens part of the reason why the curfew has been lifted so early?

EVAN MCMORRIS-SANTORO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, hi, Fred. Yes, it's a great question, actually. I'm here in Times Square with another peaceful protest. We've seen so many of over the past few days here in New York, a few hundred people in Times Square, more of a traditional event than we've seen in other places. We have speakers in the front and people listening to them.

But look, these protesters have said for days that the curfew in New York was unfair. They said that, look, we are a peaceful movement. The scenes of rioting and the scenes of violence that have been seen, they don't want to associate themselves with that, they think that's not part of their movement. And they think of the curfew, which went into place and began at 8:00 P.M. here was unfair.

And this morning at 7:00 in the morning, Mayor de Blasio tweeted that he is lifting that curfew effective immediately. It was supposed to expire tomorrow. He lifted it today. And so it appears from this particular moment that the protesters who have been saying that they have had a peaceful movement and the curfew is unnecessary have won that argument.

And the mayor has lifted the curfew a day early and that means that the city that never sleeps can go back to being out all night again. Fred?

WHITFIELD: All right. Evan, thank you so much.

Let's turn to CNN's Josh Campbell at a demonstration in Minneapolis. So, Josh, we also know that former Officer Derek Chauvin's first court appearance is scheduled for tomorrow. Are people talking about that there or what's the expectation?

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes. That's certainly the talk of where we are now. We're at the location where George Floyd was actually killed in that encounter with police officers. And, Fred, there are a number of people here that are celebrating George Floyd's life. We just saw a large group of people arrive, and we learned that these are U.S. Postal Service employees here in Minneapolis. And I want to talk to some of them here.

This is Tyler, Dalesha, Samantha. Tyler, tell me what you guys are doing out here.

TYLER: Yes. So we are here as postal workers, we are here as union members who work and live in this community to say, in order to rebuild a fighting labor movement in this country, we need to fight for the -- our unions need to fight for the entire working class amidst fighting racist, police violence against people of color.

We had a rally and a press conference on one of the burnt down post office to say you can rebuild the post office but you can't bring back the life of a man killed by the police. We demand justice for George Floyd.

CAMPBELL: Yes, thanks, Tyler. And, Dalesha, how many people would you say here are with the group?

DALESHA: We have probably about 60 postal workers from across the metro with probably 100 to 200 supporters.

CAMPBELL: Okay, a big group.

And, Samantha, you were talking to me earlier, this is an issue that's been talked about across the country, the militarization of police, something you're passionate about. Tell me about that.

SAMANTHA: Yes. The death of George Floyd is definitely an assault on people of color everywhere. And as a union member and especially the president of my local in Minneapolis for the letter carriers, it's our job to give a voice to people of color. They need our help to demilitarize the police. There was no need for that level of violence against somebody on the ground. He couldn't move.

And it's not just us. It's everywhere. It's nationwide. And the labor movement, as a whole, we need to do more to step up and help.

CAMPBELL: Yes, great. Thank you all for talking to us.

And, Fred, as you can see, people here are passionate about this issue, they continue behind this to celebrate the life of George Floyd. Tomorrow, the talk of the town will, of course, be focused on the courthouse. That's where that officer, Derek Chauvin, will have his first appearance. We'll be there. We'll cover it. We'll bring you the details. Fred?

WHITFIELD: All right. Thank you so much, Josh Campbell in Minneapolis.

And join me tonight for Unconscious Bias, Facing the Realities of Racism, right here on CNN 10:00 Eastern Time.

[14:40:04]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: All right. Welcome back.

Large crowds are gathered in American cities again today. You're looking at live pictures out of Denver and Washington, D.C., people protesting in big numbers against injustice and police brutality.

All right, take a deep breath. It's been a lot, hasn't it? Well, it's been a double whammy for a lot of small businesses across the country. First, shutting down because of the pandemic, and then, just when many got the okay to reopen, even partially, protests devolving into rioting destroyed livelihoods again. And that has been the case for one cupcake shop baker and owner in Downtown Los Angeles.

It's been an incredible and emotional roller coaster ride for Chip Brown, owner of Big Man Bakes in Downtown Los Angeles. Chip, good to see you.

CHIP BROWN, OWNER, BIG MAN BAKES: Good to see you too, Fred. Thanks for having me.

WHITFIELD: Good. We have known each other a really long time and your business was vandalized.

[14:45:00]

You told me during these protests that turned to looting on your business street, you know, and it's personal for you too. As a black man, 6'5, seeing the abuse of George Floyd underscores really a day- to-day fear you and many others have. So what has this journey been like for you and let's begin with the pain from seeing that video of George Floyd?

BROWN: OK, yes. I think for anyone to see the video it was horrific, but particularly for black men and black folks in general. When I watched that video, what really stood out to me beyond just someone watching someone die on camera was his hand in his pocket and looking directly into the camera, said to me, there was a cavalier attitude to killing someone. To have, as an officer, your hand in your pocket, what it means is you're not threatened by anything.

Clearly, if you have a hand in your pocket and your knee on someone's neck and you're hearing them cry for their mother, which to any men knows that when you're in a point where you're screaming for your mom, that means you're on the edge, that you are really close and on really deep, deep, pain and about to leave this place. And it was --

WHITFIELD: So I mentioned this as emotional for you because -- and it's been an emotional roller coaster ride because there's that. And then you're all for the demonstrations, you know, marching against injustice and police brutality. But then, as a business owner, you're seeing vandals wrecking businesses nearby. And you've made a conscientious decision while you support the cause. You also want to protect your livelihood. You decided to sleep in your shop and then you also watched things happen around you. Tell me about that.

BROWN: Well, there was no sleeping. Let me tell you that. It was vigilant watching, sitting literally in front of the store from 8:00 P.M. to 6:00 A.M., ten hours at least as these waves of people went by. And it wasn't -- these weren't protesters. And I try to make that distinction. These weren't protesters. They didn't have signs. They didn't seem to have any awareness of George Floyd. There was nothing.

These were kids. And it spoke more to a systemic problem that's, you know, just a can that's kicked down the road, whether it be schools that have been failing kids for years, parenting that didn't go on because people have, you know, homes where they have to work two jobs and three jobs, or what have you, and can't raise these kids. These were children. These were 18-year-olds. They were looting and vandalizing. I stood out front.

WHITFIELD: And you saw them. And so this almost made you very philosophical and introspective too because your instinct could have been you've got to call the police that you see on your street, down the street. But instead, once you identified these as young kids, describe just like you just did that things are going on in their lives that they have gone astray, you decided to be like a big brother, and so you approached them, you talked to them. What happened? BROWN: Well, the interesting thing was when I was being approached and they were breaking glass 100 feet from me, but they come to me and say, hey, sir, I see you're here and protecting your property and -- wow. And there's one kid that actually cut his hand breaking a window or something and I said to him, he asked me for a bandage, he asked a paper towel. And I hesitated because I knew where it came from.

But then I said, okay, let me get that for you. And I said, you know you got that doing something bad. And he said, yes. And I said, think about it. And he stood there. He gave me the time. And I said think about what you are doing and just don't do that. You're better than that. And he paused. And who knows?

He may have gone on and did more damage or may have just (INAUDIBLE), maybe that touched him. I don't know. It was a moment. And it was a deep moment because, like I said, these guys were coming up to me and calling me, sir and so forth in the midst of this melee.

WHITFIELD: And you underscore that, yes, it's a moment and we are in a really big moment and just that time you took with these kids even though you saw they were up to no good, somehow you saw that there's potential good in them and you took a moment to perhaps change things around and hopefully your business is picking up again in Downtown L.A. We'll pick up again, but this has an incredible tapestry, has it not, of people involved?

BROWN: It is. It is a tapestry. And, clearly, what you see, like I said, is a tapestry in terms of ethnicity, in terms of these marches and so forth. And it's going to take a little bit of all of us to really try to make this better.

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It's a big, systemic, deep wound in America's heart and it's going to take something from everybody.

WHITFIELD: And you demonstrated. Chip Brown, thanks so much, good do see you, Big Man Bakes Downtown L.A., glad to have you. All the best.

BROWN: Thank you, Fred. All right, to you too.

WHITFIELD: Coronavirus, yes, still a big deal. Could a spike in coronavirus cases be linked to George Floyd's protests? There's a push to get people demonstrating tested for COVID-19.

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[14:55:00]

WHITFIELD: A grim, new milestone in the global coronavirus pandemic. Just moments ago, as you can see on the right side of your screen there, the death toll here in the U.S. crossed 110,000, deaths around the world, more than 400,000. Meanwhile, the CDC has said today it is closely monitoring the demonstrations across the U.S., noting that the large gatherings have made it difficult to maintain social distancing guidelines. Meantime, at least 8 million people along the gulf coast are under a tropical storm warning as Cristobal prepared to make landfall in Louisiana later on today. Strong winds are already lashing the coast and forecasters are warning of a storm surge that could hit five feet and they're also warning the potential for tornadoes in several states. And right now, the storm is packing sustained winds of about 50 miles per hour.

Protests in the nation's capital just getting started. Straight ahead in our next hour in the Newsroom, we take you inside the demonstrations.

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