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Minneapolis City Council Members Announce Intent To Disband The Police Department; Mayor Frey: Minneapolis Police Department Must Be Transformed, Not Abolished; Earl Gray: Thomas Lane Is A "Man Of Compassion" And "Not A Violent Person". Aired 9-10p ET

Aired June 08, 2020 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[21:00:00]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: Wow! He just said it. I like that the President lies about something, and they don't even get their lies straight.

Let's turn it over to Chris for CUOMO PRIME TIME.

You would think they would coordinate the lies. Well I mean, I don't know, you would, yes, that's the problem.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST, CUOMO PRIME TIME: At this point--

COOPER: Why would they, of course?

CUOMO: --lie, deny, and defy.

COOPER: And why would it consider - yes.

CUOMO: Those are the three rules of divide and concur, and that's what they do.

COOPER: Yes.

CUOMO: They tell different stories, as long as it's appeasing to the people they want to appease. And it makes our job all the more important. And you just did it perfectly. That's what matters. You showed it for what it is. And, Anderson, I for one thank you for that.

I am Chris Cuomo. Welcome to PRIME TIME.

Thousands surrounding George Floyd's casket today in Houston on the eve of his funeral, the man charged with murdering him made his first court appearance outside Minneapolis today.

Tonight, we have the lawyer for Thomas Lane here. You'll see him on your screen. He's one of the other three officers charged with aiding and abetting murder.

Given how new a couple of these officers were, this prosecution is going to be trickier than first imagined. This lawyer says his client did not just stand by and watch Floyd die. What is his case? And what is his proof? You'll hear tonight. But first, you've got this new movement growing within the movement for a change, "Defund Police" in America, or at least in Minneapolis. That's the City Council in Minneapolis talking. They have the votes to do it.

But what will it mean? Let's ask Council President, Lisa Bender, here tonight.

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TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.

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CUOMO: Ms. Bender, thank you very much for joining us on PRIME TIME.

LISA BENDER, (D) MINNEAPOLIS CITY COUNCIL PRESIDENT: Thank you for having me.

CUOMO: All right, let's get the messaging clear here. Are you really calling for the disbanding of the Police Department, meaning it goes away?

BENDER: Well, yesterday, nine City Council Members stood together with our community, and pledged to rethink public safety in our community, and to acknowledge that the current Minneapolis Police Department is not working to keep our community safe.

And really what we pledged was to start a year-long conversation with Minneapolis residents to help us reimagine what public safety looks like, as we make those short-term fixes that are so clearly needed in our department.

CUOMO: Better, smarter, safer, those are all things that are all clearly needed. The controversial part of it becomes in the, well you can't just get rid of it right now. You wouldn't have anything.

And I heard you asked about this, "What happens if somebody comes in the middle of the night, and I call," and you answered the question by saying, "Well, that desire speaks to a privilege."

Yes, but not White privilege. White privilege, Black privilege, any color privilege, we need police. Do you agree?

BENDER: I agree that our number one priority is the safety of every single person in our community. And yes, we still have a Police Department today. We have had a Police Department for 150 years.

So, as we look forward into the future, the answer is yes, absolutely, if something is happening, there needs to be someone to call. And the answer is yes, that absolutely, we need to make sure that every single person in our community feels safe.

But we have a crisis of confidence in our Police Department. Our University of Minnesota, the local school board and parks district, major employers in our city, a local law firm have all ended their relationships with our Police Department in the last week.

So, we need to make sure that when you call, that the public has confidence that that Department, that that system is keeping people safe.

And that's our urgent priority in Minneapolis is to make sure, again, that every single resident of our City feels safe, is safe and that we do start to address those systems of racial injustice that folks are out in the streets protesting--

CUOMO: Right.

BENDER: --that so many community leaders are speaking out and speaking up against.

CUOMO: Right. But, of course, there could be no worse crisis than you calling, because you need help, and nobody answers. That's why I'm asking you that because you're--

BENDER: Absolutely.

CUOMO: --getting beaten over the head with something that seems ridiculous to people, which is "They're going to get rid of the police and they don't even know what to replace it with? There's nothing worse for a community."

So, I wanted to give you the chance to clarify because politically, it's playing like dynamite. You got the President hitting every Democrat over the head with this suggestion he can, and it seems to be frustrating its own purpose. So, let's talk about what you want to change.

When you say defund, is this about not starving the police of money because you're probably going to have communities who want more police in terms of more safety, more security, but how? So, are you talking about changing how money is spent?

[21:05:00]

BENDER: Right. So, we - we have started a lot of the work to help build new systems in our City that are keeping everyone safe.

We've looked at every reason that folks call 911. Why are people in Minneapolis calling for help? And we're starting to pair what's the right response to those calls?

In the short-term, that helps our police officers focus on the work that they're trained to do, while we have a better response to people who have a mental health crisis, or a physical health crisis, and we also know that the system of policing isn't working for a lot of victims of crime.

We have thousands of rape kits that have gone untested. We need to improve our response to all kinds of different violations of public safety, because again, that trust in the system is so eroded that our community is across the board. Nine Council Members from every corner of our City standing together saying, "We need to make deeper change than we have in the past."

CUOMO: And you have to figure out what that looks like. Now nine of 13 means you have a Mayor-veto-proof majority already.

The Mayor, because of the sound of the messaging here, it seems, and he'll argue for himself, says he's not in favor of this, that he doesn't want to disband the police. He doesn't want to defund the police.

What do you make of his position?

BENDER: Mayor Frey and I've worked together for six years. And we talk, you know, many times a day. We will work together.

You know, I would say, again, this crisis of confidence in our Police Department needs to be urgently addressed by every single leader in our City.

We have the University of Minnesota walking away from our Police Department. This isn't the opinion of a few Council Members. This is a broad swath of our community, saying that our current system isn't working to keep people safe.

And we need to, yes, in the short-term, work through the State process. The State Human Rights Department has brought legal action against our Minneapolis Police Department. We're fully cooperating with that.

We should look at budget, investments in community safety. We should look at our City's charter, and understand ways that we can maybe adjust our charter, which would include potentially going to a vote of the people to make some of these longer-term changes.

So, the commitment that we made is real. The work is serious. And it builds on years of investment in our community. And those answers will absolutely be made in partnership with our community with lots of community engagement.

CUOMO: When you say you see some day being police-free, that sounds aspirational in terms of a Utopian concept, where nobody's committing any crime, because as long as these communities are being preyed upon, both from within and without, there's going to have to be good men and women willing to step up to keep people safe.

BENDER: I think the idea of having a police-free future is very aspirational. And I am willing to stand with community members who are asking us to think of that as the goal because so many folks in our community have seen us work on reform.

They've watched Jamar Clark be killed. We worked on reform. They watched Justine Damond be killed. We got a new Police Chief. We did more reform.

And now watching George Floyd - George Floyd die in that way, with four police officers involved, is so heartbreaking for our community that, you know, across our City, people are asking us for change.

CUOMO: You - right. And you're taking change very seriously. But I'm just saying, the way it's been interpreted is, "This Council President and these other eight people, they want to get rid of the police.

I mean, what's going to happen in Minneapolis? What will that mean for Saint Paul? You know, they're going to be the only police force? Are they going to have to answer all the calls?"

So, you're arguing tonight, you're being taken out of context. This is being taken in a way that is more immediate and extreme than you intended it.

BENDER: Yes. The commitment that we need is clearly a long-term commitment. Our Police Department has been in place for 150 years. We cannot take 150 years to solve this problem.

But we absolutely will need to build up those systems of public safety as the highest priority, as the very first priority along with getting more accountability in our Police Department today.

CUOMO: So, you see having police.

It's just how they do their job, who they are, how they're accountable, how they're trained, how they are transparent, those are the things that you think need immediate work, but not in a way that it's just been said in the past, because it's never gotten done?

BENDER: Right. And we've done the trainings. You know, we've done the - looking at our use-of-force policy. We've shifted leadership. We've done a lot of those things.

[21:10:00]

So, I think the ask from our community is to look bigger, and look broader, and understand how investing our community, you know, our community that's suffering from Coronavirus, like so many across the country, the new economic crisis that has come with that.

You know, even before that, we had a housing crisis, like so many others. So, our community is asking us to look at public safety holistically. Having a home or not is a public safety issue for so many in our community, having access to healthcare.

And so, I think when we see leaders across the country, making those connections between community investments and safety, that's the conversation that we've been having in Minneapolis for many years.

So, in our small City of 430,000 people, you know, we are listening to and responding to our community, and the very specific things that are happening in Minneapolis.

CUOMO: Good. President, Bender, I'm good - I'm glad to have you here, City Council President, because I just wanted to make sure people are getting the argument straight. And Police, and this, this and this is different than no police, and instead of them, something else. I wanted to give you the fairness of your own argument. Good luck going forward.

BENDER: Yes, thank you.

CUOMO: We'll be watching the changes.

BENDER: Thank you.

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CUOMO: What are you doing in that interview? Are you testing the argument or are you helping the argument? Both. Why? Well, by now, don't we all get the need for better in Minneapolis and across this country, and on several levels, right?

Because nobody should think that policing is the whole answer. It's just one aspect of an unequal society of injustice. It's just the messaging of this "Get rid of the police" doesn't play well to form any kind of consensus.

The question is "Well what do you do then? What's the how?"

Now, the Mayor, as we discussed there, says he doesn't want to defund police. Here's how that message played with protesters.

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(VIDEO - PROTESTERS CHANTING "GO HOME, JACOB! GO HOME!")

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CUOMO: Not well. So, the question is can Mayor Jacob Frey find a way to make peace with protesters, and keep the peace in his communities?

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(VIDEO - PROTESTERS CHANTING "GO HOME, JACOB! GO HOME!")

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CUOMO: He's back with us tonight to tell us. The Mayor, next.

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[21:15:00]

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CUOMO: Interesting situation in Minneapolis. The City Council has the votes to take action on disbanding the police.

But if you were watching the lead of the show, I don't think it means what it sounds like. At least the City Council President doesn't seem as severe as the headline would read.

But the Mayor still doesn't like the plan. Now, how does that play? Not well with protestors. At a weekend rally, Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey rejected calls to abolish the Police Department. This is what he got.

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(VIDEO - PROTESTERS CHANTING "GO HOME, JACOB! GO HOME!")

(VIDEO - PROTESTERS CHANTING "SHAME!")

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CUOMO: Mayor Jacob Frey joins us now. Welcome back to PRIME TIME.

It's the job you wanted. It's the job you have. How did you interpret what happened on that stage?

MAYOR JACOB FREY, (D) MINNEAPOLIS, MINNESOTA: Well there was a larger group of peaceful protesters that came to my home, and they demanded to speak with me. And my rule of thumb throughout has been "Be open. Be honest. Be transparent."

And so, yes, I came outside. I sat down with the protest, and they called me up, and - and asked me if I was willing, right there, to commit to getting rid of the police? And I was honest.

Now, if we're talking about massive cultural shift, in the way our Police Department does business, I'm on board.

If we're talking about major structural reform that pushes back on the horrid nature of how our Police Departments have treated Black and Brown communities, I am fully on board.

But if we're talking about abolishing the entire Police Department, I was honest, that's not where I am.

CUOMO: Now, I had City Council President Bender on, before you.

And she seemed to suggest, in her answers, that the headline exaggerates what they're trying to do. She said you've had 150 years of a police force. She can't take 150 years to fix it. But there will be police. People will be kept safe.

Now, there seems to be politics at play here. But it's very powerful because so many people in your community are right to be outraged at the police, which is why an idea like getting rid of them sounds good.

But what would happen to those communities if they didn't have a respectful police force, and I know respectful is the key word, to keep them safe?

FREY: You're right. And people are right to be frustrated right now. They're right to be angry, and sad, and upset.

I mean let's be very real here. George Floyd was murdered by one of our police officers. We need to recognize that and acknowledge it. But the next step is to harness all of that energy, and anger, and sadness that we have, and commit to real-time real reforms.

And if we are really going to tackle the elephant in the room, if we're not going to mess around with these, you know, around-the-edges policy items, we got to be talking about the Police Union.

We got to be talking about the collective bargaining agreement. We got to be talking about the mandatory arbitration system at the State. We are committed to those. I am committed to those.

CUOMO: All right, hold on.

FREY: I know that our Chief--

CUOMO: Mayor, let's not get--

FREY: Yes.

CUOMO: --let's not get beyond where people meet this kind of discussion, right, because this is - this is nuanced stuff that you're talking about. But it's also very obvious and true in a lot of cities.

Now, this isn't about Union, anti-Union. You hear from political leaders, very often, "The Union keeps us from doing it."

In Buffalo, right now, where the older White guy was pushed backwards, and he fell, and cracked his head open, the Mayor there said, "The Union, the Union's killing me on this. The Union won't let us get rid of guys the way we want to. The Union is pushing these officers to resign. They have too much power."

So, let's talk about that for a second.

[21:20:00]

Why is the Union relevant here? Because the outside argument would be "Well they take care of the officers, and they make sure that guys like you don't underpay them and overwork them." Why are they the problem?

FREY: Well first, let's consider the fact that progressive mayors and chiefs, for 10 years, or 15 years, or more years, have been thwarted in a lot of the reforms that they've wanted to make by one of several areas.

First, any - a lot of these policy items that they want to push forward, they first have to negotiate with the Police Union. So, in other words, if the Police Union doesn't want it, it's not ultimately in the contract.

Second, and this is perhaps the most important piece, when you talk about culture shift, you're talking about people and personnel.

And if the Chief or I are prevented from disciplining, and then terminating officers, because of the system that's in place, then that inhibits the culture shift from happening.

And we've seen it again, and again, and again, where officers are disciplined or terminated, but then they work their way through the process.

They go up to arbitration. And somewhere in the range of 45 percent of those cases are then sent back to the Police Department. So, we don't have, in some cases, the ability to see that culture shift through.

So, if we're really real about reforms, let's be precise in our terminology, let's be precise in our words, and then let's get the reform done. I think there's the momentum now to do it.

CUOMO: Well look, this is tricky business, why? Because that's hard. And it's not even your biggest problem right, because policing is not your biggest problem. It - it showed its ugliest side with George Floyd.

But it's about education. It's about economic opportunities. It's about whether or not your lenders--

FREY: That's right.

CUOMO: --are treating those communities fairly. It's about whether employers are. It's about whether they're getting priced out of insurance.

Because all of these collective - this collection of issues creates poverty, creates criminality, creates interactions with police. You know all this, very tough to fix, and that's why extreme measures can be appealing.

Do you think this City Council is going to abolish the police force?

FREY: I don't want to speak for the City Council on what they will or will not do. I saw the release that they - that they put out. I saw the verbiage that was used. And I'll leave that to them to discern and explain.

But I know where I am. I'm committed to this reform. And, by the way, so is our Chief, and he has my full support. Our Chief is someone that literally sued the Minneapolis Police

Department for racial discrimination, and won. Now he's our Chief. He's chock-full of integrity. He is trying to instill in the officers this sense of compassion and responsibility and procedural justice that we need.

And, you know, he talks about it being a measure of planting seeds, you know. Sometimes it takes a while for those seeds to grow. But, right now, right now, we collectively have the opportunity to make quick reforms.

CUOMO: Yes, because people don't want seeds.

FREY: It needed to happen for generations.

CUOMO: They want you to uproot a big-ass tree from somewhere else, and plant it in their community. They do not want seeds because it takes too long, and the waiting time is paid for in poverty and pain.

FREY: It's true.

CUOMO: So, what do you think you can get done near-term for your community?

FREY: Right now, we do have some levers that we did not traditionally have.

We have got a TRO that we're working with the State on right now, partnering hand-in-hand that can give us the tools to get some of these measures done that were previously, in many cases, impossible.

And so, we're taking action on the policy items that we have - that we have at our disposal at the City that we can do unilaterally. We're making sure to, you know, make - make sure that we're pushing back on some of these Union policies that have prevented us from getting reform done.

And then, ultimately yes, I do think we need to be looking at arbitration as well with - which is through the State.

CUOMO: This is tough stuff. But nobody said it was going to be easy. But remember the main rule of politics, Mayor, you already know it well, politicians act more out of fear of consequence than they do out of good conscience.

It's not being cynical. It's just being practical. And if this community stays together, and votes together, on what it wants, change will come, or there'll be a new batch of people trying to do it.

Mayor Jacob Frey?

FREY: Right. Change needs to come.

CUOMO: Has to. Has to. You cannot stay where you are right now. And we will be watching. And we are always here to give you a platform to make the case. Mayor Jacob Frey, good luck. FREY: Thank you so much, Chris.

CUOMO: All right, look, the problem is intractable for two reasons.

You don't have everybody on board wanting to fix it. I'm not talking about the politicians. I'm talking about the people in the community. Everybody's got to be on the same page, the haves and the have-nots.

Then, it's about changing the policies, and going after the politicians, who don't change in the way you want. And that again is about having people come together.

[21:25:00]

The answers are easy, if the will is there to force them. Politicians act out of fear of consequence more often than good conscience.

Another big story that we're taking on uniquely tonight, the lawyer for one of the four fired officers charged in George Floyd's death, he says his newly-minted officer client did what he thought was right when Derek Chauvin had a knee on George Floyd's neck for nearly nine minutes.

Why? Why does he believe that his client was doing the right thing? How does he know he was doing the right thing? The proof, next.

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[21:30:00]

CUOMO: A Judge today set Derek Chauvin's bail at $1.25 million in the death of George Floyd. The other three former officers charged are due in court for their next hearing later this month.

Now, they include Timothy (ph) Lane, the officer highlighted in this video, helping Chauvin pin Floyd, to the ground, for almost nine minutes.

Lane's attorney claims George Floyd was resisting arrest, and that his client suggested rolling Floyd over while Chauvin was kneeling on his neck. That lawyer is Earl Gray, and he joins us now.

Counselor, thank you for joining us.

EARL GRAY, ATTORNEY FOR FORMER OFFICER THOMAS LANE: Good evening.

CUOMO: The first question is an obvious one. What do you know that we don't know, because we don't see Floyd resisting, and we don't hear anything from your client. So, what do you have access to that we don't?

GRAY: Well, number one, I have viewed the body camera of my client throughout this arrest and restraining Mr. Floyd.

Besides that, I've interviewed my client. My client has given a complete statement of what he did to the Bureau of Criminal Apprehension. He also gave a statement to the sergeants' right at the scene as to what he did.

He was not hiding anything. He thought he was following the protocol of the Minneapolis Police Department, in assisting in the arrest of Mr. Floyd.

CUOMO: Counselor? Counselor, let's just take it one step at a time.

GRAY: So, how do I know? Because I've reviewed the footage.

CUOMO: Let's just take it one step at a time.

GRAY: Sure.

CUOMO: I try - I know this isn't directly germane to your case. But this has bigger implications than just in the courtroom, for your client as well.

For transparency purposes, why shouldn't the public, be seeing this body camera footage? And what do you believe the community would think that it doesn't think now, if it did have access to what you have access to?

GRAY: Well I can't speak for the community.

But if they saw the full-body camera on my client, I believe that they would have a different opinion, particularly if they had any knowledge of what police procedure is, and how they should proceed on a felony arrest, particularly when the individual they are arresting is under the influence of some kind of drug, which was clearly evident in this arrest situation.

CUOMO: Clearly evident how?

GRAY: And again--

CUOMO: Because with what we saw, Counselor, again, you got to give us the benefit of what we've seen, you don't see Floyd being violent, or hostile, or throwing people around.

And when he's on the ground, for many minutes, he's not moving at all, except to ask for help. What are we missing?

GRAY: Well I said that he was clearly under the influence of drug - of a drug, which he was, because of the autopsy. And you don't see any violent movement.

But if you saw the body camera, you would know that when my client, after when he went up to see Mr. George - Floyd, to talk to him, Mr. Floyd did not show his hands.

He put his right hand down below the seat, which is clear evidence from - for my client that he might be going to grab a gun or hide drugs. So, my client pulled him, "Let me see both of your hands," and he pulled out his gun.

There was a pause. He didn't show his hands right away. But then, he put both of his hands on the steering wheel. As soon as he did that, Mr. Cuomo, my client put his gun in his holster.

They then took Mr. Floyd out of the - his vehicle because they were going to arrest him. And he resisted leaving his vehicle. He got out - he - they finally got him out of his vehicle.

It wasn't a violent resistance. But it was not the kind of non- resistance that an individual should do, when a police officer is arresting him. He should get out of his vehicle, and follow the orders of the police officer. He didn't do that.

Once they get him out of the squad car, he - they told him to put his hands on his head. He did.

And then, they tried to put his - because that's what they're supposed to do, they want to put his hands behind his back to handcuff him, and then he resisted again. He didn't want that.

Once - once they got the handcuffs on him, they then directed him over, and sat him down on the sidewalk, and went over to investigate the other two individuals that were in the squad car, who are now in the - Mr. Floyd's car, they're now - now out on the sidewalk.

[21:35:00]

In any event, after they talk to them, they're now going to put Mr. Floyd in the squad car. They take him over to the squad car, and he's walking slowly. And then, right before they put him in the squad car, he lays back and falls down.

And he - and he says "I got claustrophobia. I do not want to go in a squad car. I'm not going in the squad car." And he resists this - resists going in the squad car.

So, the police officers are trained that they have to put them in the back seat of the squad car. They're arresting him for a felony. They finally managed to get him in one side, the driver's side--

CUOMO: Right.

GRAY: --of the back seat. And then, that's when Chauvin and his partner come to the other side. And Mr. Floyd shoved with his feet out towards where Mister - Officer Chauvin was, and he ended up outside on the other side of the squad car, on the door - by the drive - by the sidewalk.

CUOMO: Four police officers couldn't get--

GRAY: So now he's got--

CUOMO: --one guy who's handcuffed behind his back into a squad car?

GRAY: Yes, that's - well, they did get him in there, but it wasn't easy, because he was fighting. He was handcuffed, but he's six foot. I think he's 6'2". And he was, you know, he was - he had a - the build of a bodybuilder.

CUOMO: But there are four cops.

GRAY: Yes. You know, when certainly--

CUOMO: And Counselor, they wind up with him out on the floor with his hands behind his back and a--

GRAY: That's correct.

CUOMO: --and a knee on the neck, which is not proper training and protocol, as we both know, and anybody with commonsense knows, for nine minutes, with your client assisting.

GRAY: You're speaking for--

CUOMO: Now, you don't need training to know that it was too much. The civilians there knew it was too much. They were asking them not to do it. He was begging for them not to do it.

This is about training, or is this about common sense, or is this about following Blue, over what was obvious in front of your eyes?

GRAY: Well, you didn't let me finish. But when he did go outside the squad car--

CUOMO: Go ahead. Go ahead.

GRAY: Pardon me?

CUOMO: Go ahead, please.

GRAY: OK. He's now on the sidewalk. And my client is - Mr. Floyd is kicking his legs. My client is holding his legs. And he - and when he - Mr. Floyd is saying he can't breathe, and stating those things, my client says to the 20-year veteran Chauvin "Shall we roll him over?"

CUOMO: So, actually he says it?

GRAY: Chauvin said no.

CUOMO: I want - I want the audience to hear that though, Counselor. Because remember, this is the first time they've ever heard anything like this, because they haven't been given access to the body camera footage. In fact, I see you're organizing your - your papers there as well. Let's do this, Counselor. I want to give you full hearing on this. I want to give you full hearing.

I'm going to take - I'm going to take a quick break, and let's talk it through. Because remember, remember the audience, Mr. Gray. They haven't heard any of this. They haven't seen George Floyd doing any kind of resisting. And the State won't release the body camera footage for public consumption at this point.

So, I appreciate you talking us through it. Let's take a quick break, and take me through what you think matters in this case, OK?

GRAY: And thank you.

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[21:40:00]

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CUOMO: All right, this is very interesting. We have Earl Gray, Counselor for Thomas Lane, one of the former Minneapolis police officers, on trial now in the murder case of George Floyd.

Counselor, thank you for staying through the break. You described - because again, remember, and audience, you should know this, as Counsel, Mr. Gray has seen the body camera footage. We haven't. So, remember that.

Counsel says that the body camera footage shows that George Floyd resisted. We had all these different angles of him that show every aspect of this, not in full, but each phase.

You never see any kind of resistance. You termed it a "Not a violent type of resistance" but the kind of resistance you shouldn't do that warranted this kind of treatment in your opinion, Counselor.

GRAY: Well I would call it a struggle. They were struggling with him. And once they got - got control of him, where my client was on the feet of Mr. Floyd, and Mister - and Officer Kueng was on in the middle, on his waist, and Chauvin was on his shoulder or neck--

CUOMO: Neck.

GRAY: --no matter what my client - well that's questionable, by the way.

CUOMO: How?

GRAY: What my client--

CUOMO: His knee is right on his neck in the video.

GRAY: Questionable because look at the autopsy. There's not any injury to this man's hyoid bone or larynx. He didn't suffer a strangulation or an asphyxiation. But let me finish this.

CUOMO: But also, just to be clear.

GRAY: Now, my client's--

CUOMO: That's not what the autopsy that the family did showed. And the knee is clearly on his neck.

GRAY: Yes--

CUOMO: And the man is dead. So something happened, Counselor.

GRAY: Yes, yes, he had--

CUOMO: Continue.

GRAY: --methamphetamine - I don't want to talk about the deceased, Mr. Floyd because what I like to tell you is--

CUOMO: Yes.

GRAY: --while my client's on his feet, he says, let me get it here, while - while Mr. Floyd was moving, Lane's asked "Should we roll him on his side?" And Officer Chauvin said "No. Staying put where we got him."

Now, we've got a 20-year officer here, and you got a four-day officer, in my client. He goes on however, my client does, and says, "I am worried about excited delirium or whatever."

What's excited delirium? It's a situation where you've taken a lot of drugs, and you get excited, and you might die. That's what he was worried about. And then, Chauvin says to my client again, "That's why we have him on his stomach."

[21:45:00]

Then later, my client again says, "Do you - do you want to roll him on his side?" This is later, right before the ambulance comes. And again, he's not rolled on his side.

Now, the question, of course, the public is watching this. My client's at his feet, he doesn't have a real good view of Mr. Chauvin or, excuse me, Mr. Floyd, of what Chauvin is doing.

But if all these people say why - why didn't my client intercede? Well if the public is there, and they're so in uproar about this, they didn't intercede either. And my client's down where he can't really see.

CUOMO: Well hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. Counselor?

GRAY: So when the--

CUOMO: Counselor? Hold on. Hold on.

GRAY: Yes, Chris.

CUOMO: Two things.

One, you're laying on a man's legs. You've got a fine view of what's going on with that man. The other officer is literally a foot in front of you on his neck.

Two, I understand that he has a senior officer telling him what to do.

GRAY: No--

CUOMO: But there's also a duty to intervene. And if you think the officer is doing something that's dangerous to a civilian, you have a duty to intervene, and he did not intervene.

GRAY: Sure.

CUOMO: And the idea that the civilians should have rushed in to a policing situation, in the inner City of Minneapolis, against four police officers that have weapons, and are kneeling on the neck of a man, don't you think that's asking a little much of civilians, and a little too little of your client?

GRAY: Absolutely. I'm not - I just brought that up. Well what - what you say is, and he's a foot away--

CUOMO: Yes, I know.

GRAY: --look in the video, he's got his feet. He was holding his feet though. And Mr. Kueng was - Officer Kueng was next, and then Chauvin. You say he had a clear view, he didn't. But what is compelling--

CUOMO: He's - I'm saying he's on the man's body, and the guy's screaming, "I want my mother. I'm going to die. They're going to kill me. I can't breathe."

GRAY: Sir, he also said "I can't breathe" when he - when they're trying to get him into the squad car. He used that at that time too. So, should the police believe it? I don't know.

My client's holding his feet. Well what's telling - what's compelling is when the ambulance comes, my client goes in the ambulance, four days on the Force, goes in the ambulance, and starts his own CPR, pushing down on his chest, which he did for a lengthy period of time, until they got the machine out, attempting to revive Mr. Floyd. He didn't want to see the man die. Nobody would want that. CUOMO: Does your client think that--

GRAY: My client--

CUOMO: --what Officer Chauvin did was wrong?

GRAY: I can't talk about that because that's communication between my client, and myself, which is confidential, as you know, Mr. Cuomo so.

CUOMO: Yes. I do. But you're also relaying things that you've learned from your client, in terms of what he was seeing.

GRAY: I'm relaying--

CUOMO: And what we saw.

GRAY: Oh no, I'm relaying things to what I saw in the video. You look at the video, when you get it. My cameras body - body video, and you'll see that.

CUOMO: And you don't--

GRAY: And I'm not - I'm not a 100 percent as to the accuracy of the - what was that?

CUOMO: Nothing. It was your computer making a noise.

GRAY: Hello?

CUOMO: Don't worry about it.

GRAY: Oh, I'm sorry. I think I hit it.

CUOMO: Don't worry about it.

GRAY: You got me excited, Mr. Cuomo.

CUOMO: I'm sorry, Counsel. Look, a lot of people are excited about this. But I got to tell you. Look, we got more we got to discuss. You got another five minutes on you?

GRAY: Well sure.

CUOMO: This - this matters too much. Let's take another break. I want to give this a full conversation because this matters. There's just too much on the line about what people perceive, and what they should have from their police and what should have been done here. Stay with me.

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CUOMO: First, just to the Minnesota authorities, we have Counselor Earl Gray here, who is Thomas Lane's attorney, one of the three officers that's going to be tried, along with Derek Chauvin for the death of George Floyd, you need to release the body camera footage.

Counselor's in a position to tell us what he has seen. I appreciate that.

You need to release the footage. People have to see this for themselves. I know there's a trial coming. I'm a lawyer. But this is about more than the court of law. Let your citizens see what happens.

Now, Counselor, that's not for you. That's politics. Back to the law, your - your client--

GRAY: I can't release the body camera. You know I don't--

CUOMO: No. I know you can't. I'm not asking you to.

GRAY: OK.

CUOMO: I'm not asking you to, Counselor.

GRAY: OK.

CUOMO: And please, that was just talking--

GRAY: I'm sorry.

CUOMO: --to the officials. Not you. Apologies. Now, help me understand.

GRAY: Thank you.

CUOMO: Your client is on the legs.

GRAY: Sure.

CUOMO: He doesn't think they're doing the right thing. He wants to turn Mr. Floyd on his side. Chauvin says no. He asks again. Chauvin says no. He does what he's told. But he doesn't think it's right.

There's duty to intervene and there's also called human compassion. Why didn't he get off the man if he didn't think what they were doing was right?

GRAY: Well, first of all, hindsight is very accurate. He thought he was doing what was right, and he was trying to suggest to Chauvin that maybe we should roll him on his side. He wasn't sure. He's got a 20- year veteran. And I know, "Well you" - people say "Well so what?"

Well what do you mean "So what?"

A police force is like a - the military. You have a guy with 20 years' experience, and you have four days. The other fellow, Mister - Officer Kueng has three days.

I mean, put yourself in that position, as a trained police officer, who is trained by this guy. That was one of his training officers. And don't use your hindsight.

You think he's under the influence of a drug. He's did everything that he thought he was supposed to do. And he did more than that. He went into the ambulance, and he's the one that was doing CPR. He's a man of compassion. He's not a violent person.

[21:55:00]

And I like to change the subject just once here to show you, because you are a lawyer, I am a lawyer, can you imagine the difficulty in getting my client a fair trial, the presumption of innocence and an unbiased jury, when this Mayor tonight, here's what he said.

Mayor Frey said that George Floyd was murdered. That's what he said, by, he didn't say four, he said by one of our police officers. What kind of comment is that by any politician who has any semblance of fairness to give one of his employees, a police officer--

CUOMO: But Counselor?

GRAY: --to abandon and barely--

CUOMO: Counselor? First of all, he's a politician, all right? He's not doing the prosecution. It's going through the Attorney General. But, listen.

GRAY: Sure--

CUOMO: You've got to deal with the optics of what we've been able to see. You and I probably have--

GRAY: I agree.

CUOMO: --never seen a case where someone kneels on the throat of somebody as long as happened with George Floyd. Chauvin's attorney is going to have to answer for himself.

But the reason I wanted you on here was to help people understand how something that looks so obviously wrong, forget about training, you don't need training to be a human being.

Citizens weren't supposed to get involved. These officers were supposed to do what was right. And we know, you and I know, from all that we've seen, minutes and minutes, with this guy, with his knee on his neck, was wrong.

But Counselor, I appreciate you being here to give us insight into what we haven't seen and heard, and what is to come.

GRAY: One other - one - just one real quick comment.

CUOMO: Yes, Sir.

GRAY: I heard your father give a speech over 50 years ago. And it was the best speech I ever heard. That's just to let you know.

CUOMO: Counselor, thank you very much. Thank God he's not here to see this because I think he'd be shocked at what's going on in this system, and what people are paying attention to.

GRAY: I agree. I agree.

CUOMO: Yes, glad - yes, all right, glad you think it's funny.

Listen, none of this is funny. But this is a window into what you're going to see going forward. And there's nothing for us to be smiling about, to what my father spent his whole life fighting against, and now we have to fight against it, together.

Justice is fairness under law. You need to see what this case is going to be based on. There can be no fairness in the society without it.

I'll be right back.

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