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Cuomo Prime Time

Protests And A Pandemic Under President Trump; Nineteen States See Record Coronavirus Cases Amid Reopening; Interview With Seattle Mayor Jenny Durkan (D-WA); Dr. Fauci Calls Rise In Covid-19 Cases "Disturbing"; Confronting Systemic Racism In America; Record Number Of Americans Agree: There's Systemic Racism; 19 States See Covid-19 Cases Rising Amid Reopening; CDC Predicts 130,000 U.S. Coronavirus Deaths By July 4. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired June 12, 2020 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: In terms of how or when officers will seek to reclaim that station -- Erin.

ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: All right, Dan, thank you very much. Just pretty amazing stuff there, including that police officer who wanted to do better. All right. Chris Cuomo is taking it over now -- Chris.

[20:00:10]

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: All right. Erin, thank you very much. Have a good weekend. Coop is off. I am Chris Cuomo. Welcome to an expanded edition of PRIMETIME.

Protests and a pandemic: Both still very much in full effect, both testing our commitment to each other. One demands that we come together, the other that we do our best to stay apart. And while the need for leadership is very great, we may be better off if President Trump just stays out of both.

He has made people think masks are a sign of weakness as cases pop up around the country and he has no answer, and now after saying we must pay great care to not call too many people racists. He made this mess of a message about chokehold.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think the concept of chokehold sounds so innocent and so perfect, and then you realize if it's a one-on-one, now, if it's two-on-one, that's a little bit of a different story, depending -- depending on the toughness and strength.

You know, we're talking about toughness and strength. We are talking -- there is a physical thing here also.

With that being said, it would be, I think, a very good thing that generally speaking, it should be ended.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: You know what he's talking about? I have no clue. Let's ask Jim Acosta at the White House. He is obviously riffing there, a chokehold sounds innocent. Is there any direction from the White House about where he is trying to go with this?

JIM ACOSTA, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Not really, and as you noticed, Chris, the President kind of danced around the question. He said that in some cases, chokeholds are quote, "perfect," but in other cases, not so much and that he feels that perhaps they should be banned. He didn't really give a definitive answer there.

We've been waiting for definitive answers on a whole slew of questions about these police brutality issues over the last several days. The President hasn't been taking questions from White House reporters. He took some questions from Fox News, but there is no clear signal as to where the President is headed on all of this.

Now, he is going to be giving the commencement speech at West Point tomorrow and perhaps he'll have more to say about where he plans to lead the country in the coming days on all of this. You know, Chris, they're making some major preparations for this commencement speech tomorrow.

As told by a senior administration official that the Secretary of Defense Mark Esper, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Mark Milley, they will not be in attendance for that. They say that's been the plan all along, and that there'll be leaving taped messages for the cadets there who are graduating.

But you know, one thing that we have not gotten a sense of at this point is any clarity from this administration on where he stands -- where the President stands on these police brutality issues.

He was speaking to people at a Mega Church in Dallas last night. He seems Want to continue down this road of dividing the country, pitting one group of Americans against another. But as you see in all of these polls, Chris, there is a groundswell of support out there for these protesters and there is a recognition, it seems according to a lot of this polling, that something needs to change, and the President seems to be pulled along, you know, kicking and screaming by the rest of the country in all of this.

CUOMO: That's why I like Seattle. Seattle allows him an opportunity to define this as more of a radical left issue and weakness versus strength.

But this West Point address, I think, is an underrated moment for this President, Jim. We all hear what's going on behind you. We know the city down there is alive with people still on the streets calling for change. We get it.

ACOSTA: Yes.

CUOMO: The idea of what he'll say is very, very sensitive because the military has been coming after him. Will he take that up with these cadets? You know, the idea of what strength is, will he take that up in a military setting? You know, will he have a message about what's going on? Will it be written for him? Will he go off of it? This is an opportunity for him that could very, very easily take him

in one of two directions and very far down a road of making things worse, or maybe starting to inch back towards better.

ACOSTA: Absolutely, Chris, and remember, this is a President who has been at odds with military leaders over the last several days -- the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, Mark Milley just told graduates of the National Defense University that he regrets being part of that photo op at the church just across the street from where we are right now.

You can hear people celebrating in the park. It's been more of a street festival behind us over the last couple of days, Chris, than anything else.

But you're right. You know, keep in mind, it's not just the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the former Defense Secretary General Jim Mattis, he wrote that scathing op-ed sharply criticizing the President essentially accusing him of being opposed to American values of democracy and respect for other points of view and this idea that the military should not be involved in domestic politics.

[20:05:10]

ACOSTA: That is something that that Chairman Milley mentioned in his address to the graduates and it is at the National Defense University. And so it's unclear as to how the President is going to strike out on all of this.

One thing we could tell you, Chris is, you know, a lot is going into this commencement address tomorrow. These cadets who are going to be there tomorrow, they're going to be spaced apart for social distancing. Their families aren't going to be there. The faculty and staff won't be there because of all the precautions that are being taken.

So, a lot of pain has gone into -- a lot of blood, sweat and tears has gone into preparing this graduation commencement ceremony tomorrow, and so yes, all eyes are going to be on the President to see where he decides to take the country moving forward.

But if past is prologue, and the last several days tells us anything, Chris, this President is hell bent on this law and order message of essentially taking the side of the police officers and these protests over the last couple of weeks and showing sort of a 10-year tone deafness to the concerns of these protesters that we've seen over the last couple of weeks.

And as you know, Chris, the military is one of the most diverse American institutions that you can think of. And so you're going to have a diverse audience there listening very closely what the President has to say -- Chris.

CUOMO: In fact, recently in a poll, the military was seen as the institution that has the best chance of dealing with racial disparities in this country. Jim Acosta, thank you very much. Have a good weekend. Appreciate the work. All right, so we're heading into another weekend. You know what that

means? It is summertime. More people are going to leave their homes. Everybody is anxious to get back to life as normal.

Sure, there are guidelines. Will they be followed? COVID cases are still rising. Nineteen different states. Take a look. You'll see in the color coding there, how much and in what place.

Some of the biggest surges are across southern states like North Carolina, Arizona and Texas.

CNN's Nick Watt has the state of play.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NICK WATT, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Today in Houston, they're prepping to reopen not more businesses, but maybe the field hospital at the Texans NRG Stadium. COVID-19 hospitalization rates in Texas just hit an all-time high.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUDGE LINA HIDALGO, HARRIS COUNTY, TEXAS: I'm growing increasingly concerned that we may be approaching the precipice -- the precipice of a disaster.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WATT (voice-over): Oregon and Utah have hit pause on re-opening following upticks these past couple of weeks.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Has the United States stalled in the fight against coronavirus?

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: I am not so sure we can say it is stalled, but what we are seeing right now is something obviously that's disturbing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WATT (voice-over): New case counts right now rising in 19 states. Florida's average new case count has about doubled since June 1st.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL): As you're testing more, you're going to find more cases.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WATT (voice-over): But he admits there are new outbreaks in farming communities.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DR. AILEEN MARTY, INFECTIOUS DISEASE SPECIALIST, FLORIDA INTERNATIONAL

UNIVERSITY: A small part of it is testing. But it truly is a real increase in cases, and part of that is because people are getting too close together without using their masks.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WATT (voice-over): Orange County, California, scene of some crowded sand just ended its mask advisory a couple of days after the health officer behind it quit after receiving threats.

Meanwhile, another new study says masks work that making masks mandatory in New York City on April 17th prevented more than 66,000 infections over the following three weeks alone.

The President doesn't wear one and his campaign is now asking everyone attending next week's MAGA rally in Tulsa to sign a waiver saying they won't sue if they catch COVID-19.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FAUCI: Please wear a mask, all the time. Because a mask will give you some protection. The best thing to do is to avoid crowded areas, but if you're not going to do that, please wear a mask.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CUOMO: All right, our thanks to Nick Watt for the reporting. Can you imagine having people sign a release to protect yourself from any liability for inviting them to a place that is going to be unsafe inherently, and you don't even push masks? Why doesn't this President treat us in our interests the way he treats his own? He protects himself. He makes sure people around him are tested, that they wear masks, that there's adequate tracing. Why won't he do the same for the rest of us? Even his attendees at a rally.

Now, that takes us to another point of focus in this country. Seattle, right? Trump is all about this situation as proof that the left has run amok, and that the city and state must dominate the streets.

He is even apparently tweeting about our interview with the City's Mayor suggesting she doesn't get what's going on in her own city. The Mayor is here to respond and update, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:13:58]

CUOMO: All right now, Seattle has become largely a matter of perspective. Is this a largely peaceful takeover of part of the city? Can you have a peaceful takeover? Or do you have an occupation?

Now, we hear that the protesters are negotiating with officials. Should they have the leverage to negotiate in a city where they are not supposed to have any control? There's a map of this new so-called area, they're calling it CHAZ, the Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone. It takes up several city blocks.

People were pushed out -- police were pushed out of the area on Monday. Here's a live look. Now, look, I mean, if you look at it, you know, it's not an angry protest. It's not really organized, but it is completely occupied.

I interviewed Seattle's Mayor yesterday. She made a reference to the 1967 Summer of Love. She got some love for that and some critics including the President saying this is anarchy and officials need to shut it down.

[20:15:05]

CUOMO: Mayor Jenny Durkan returns tonight. Miss Mayor, Thank you very much for taking the opportunity. What can you tell us about the state of play?

MAYOR JENNY DURKAN (D-WA), SEATTLE: Chris, thanks for having me back. First, I want to assure the President that Seattle is fine. I'm not sure what he is so afraid of and what he is depicting to the nation just isn't true.

I spent time in the area today talking to people, listening to their concerns, talking about what brought them there, what they want to see for our city and for our community. I don't know why the President is so afraid of democracy.

Free speech is part of who we are. It's how we started as a nation, and we will be fine in Seattle. We don't need the President's help.

CUOMO: So the President is saying yes, of course, there's hyperbole in there. It's like a Hellscape out of "Mad Max." This is the -- you know, the left run amok, all of that, and yet, you do have a reality on your hands.

You have negotiations between the people who are there and police. They seem to feel that they have a sense of domain where they are. They are in control of that area so that you can't have normal traffic. You don't have normal life there.

You have your Police Chief saying she didn't want to leave the precinct that the city caved to pressure. That doesn't sound great either, does it?

DURKAN: So, play space protests are nothing new in Seattle or across America. I mean, you saw Occupy take part of Wall Street for almost eight months in New York and the city managed to survive. I think what we really have to do is, you know, as the old saying, if we're given, you know, one mouth but two ears, it's time to listen.

What's happening in America right now is so significant, and we, as leaders have to listen and determine what changes can we bring to bring us to a better country and better cities? My job as Mayor is to move forward in a way that really pays attention to the very legitimate pain and rage in the streets about centuries of systemic racism and communities being held back. If we miss this opportunity, our nation will miss an opportunity. And

so I'm not afraid to listen to people. I'm not afraid to hear what they want, and to see if we, as a city can address that very real pain.

CUOMO: Negotiations. What are this state of negotiations? What are they asking for? What do you like? What do you not like?

DURKAN: So, we've had -- I've met with many community groups over the last two weeks. There's a range of demands and desires by people which everything from how we do policing that we've met some of them already, to how do we really do the thing people want the most and that is, invest in community, invest in their children, invest in opportunity and making sure that our schools, our healthcare systems, our equity and economy are built for everybody.

Because if you look across all of our systems, people of color, and particularly black Americans have been left behind in every one of them. That doesn't happen by mistake, it happens because of how the structures are built.

And so when I listen to people, mostly what I hear is, their desire to see the true opportunity and equity be made real in all of those systems that we, as a society, invest in those systems, greater than we've already invested in the Criminal Justice System, and I think that's the right path forward.

CUOMO: I actually think the linking thought to what's going to bring about a new culture, wave of change will be that yes, of course, color and systemic racism is a reality, but that the need and the spread of opportunity is more have-have not than it is just color.

Color, absolutely. Race is an identifiable and an intrinsic part of inequality in this society. But it goes beyond that, and I think if you can get that out of these streets, that its color and you know, race and if there is a list of needs for society, I think you have the best chance at seeing changes from power.

One last thing, Mayor, while I have you. The idea of what you will give on and what you want. The idea of removing police from the community of making that building something else, will the police return there to work? Or is that building going to become something else?

DURKAN: Police have been back in there. The Chief of Police was there yesterday. They've had some people in there. And we're going to continue to analyze whether that's the best place for the police to operate, whether there's additional things, but really what I hear from people, when I listen to them is first, I've got to listen and the harder it is for me to listen, the more important it is that I'd be sitting and listening.

And the second is, you know, I think Dave Chappelle said it very well. This movement came from the streets. It didn't come from politicians, it didn't come from elected leaders, and we've got to in some ways get out of the way and to listen to the streets, because those kind of movements are what has moved America forward through its whole existence and I think we've got to do that.

And if we miss this opportunity, I would say shame on all of us.

[20:20:13]

CUOMO: Yes, look, there's no question. We've never had any meaningful change that hasn't started at the grassroots, the street, the people the populist level. I think that's always been true.

And we'll see where it goes here. You certainly have a lot of people watching, Mayor Durkan, and you will continue to have this platform to explain the situation.

DURKAN: Thanks very much, Chris. Take care.

CUOMO: Good luck to you this weekend.

DURKAN: Thank you.

CUOMO: All right. So we go from the interplay of what's happening on the streets in Seattle, a lot of people there, a lot of them wearing masks, but they're in close contact. Those protests have to play in to the pandemic situation. It'll take time to see all of these are lagging indicators. But the highest number of cases in a single day is a phrase we keep hearing in state after state in this COVID fight.

We just heard from Dr. Fauci, this isn't over. You know that. States should not leapfrog over reopening guidelines. Don't we get that? We're back with someone else who knows about the consequences. There he is. My man, Schaffner, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:25:39]

CUOMO: In a country that is desperate for leadership, especially on the Federal level, at least we've still got Fauci. Dr. Anthony Fauci, one of the top doctors on the White House Coronavirus Taskforce. He can be believed. He can be trusted. He has not led us astray and he is warning, don't rush the reopening process.

Coronavirus cases have increased in 19 states. Remember this is during the summer. We felt we might get a break. But the reopening was always imagined to be very deliberate. It hasn't been.

Some areas are actually seeing record highs in the number of new cases. The C.D.C. now warns the U.S. could suffer 130,000 deaths in all by the Fourth of July.

Still, Dr. Fauci says this doesn't mean the fight against COVID has stalled.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FAUCI: I'm not so sure we could say it stalled, but what we're seeing right now is something obviously that's disturbing. We all do want to reopen the country for a number of important reasons. But we've got to do that in a way that's careful and prudent.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: Let's bring in Dr. William Schaffner back for us tonight. First of all, do you agree with Fauci?

DR. WILLIAM SCHAFFNER, INFECTIOUS DISEASE EXPERT, VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY MEDICAL CENTER: Pretty much, but it looks stalled to me at the moment. In fact, the accelerator is on in a number of different places.

This COVID virus hasn't taken a vacation, Chris, it's up and out. And it's up and out because people are opening up too quickly. And they're being a bit carefree about it. They're not wearing their masks, you know, wear the mask when you leave your front door.

CUOMO: Masks a weakness. Masks are a hoax. The virus is a hoax. You don't need it. It's been greatly overblown. In fact, quarantining made it worse. That's what we're hearing from the President and state news.

SCHAFFNER: Masks are strength. They come from knowledge. They show respect for others, others wearing masks show respect for you. It's was what was effective in flattening the curve.

And so mask, social distancing, good hand hygiene, staying away from large gatherings. Those are the elements. Put all of those together and we can manage this. Ignore those, and the hospital emergency rooms will fill up.

CUOMO: I think Fauci's context for stalling is about his efforts and what they're able to do at that level in terms of trying to find a vaccine, still ambitious. They'll have one by the end of the year. Of course, they don't control the states. And you're sitting in proof of that right now.

You're in Tennessee -- Nashville, as it says, for everybody in the top right hand corner of the screen -- and they've had to slow it down in Tennessee, which is actually a pretty mature thing to do. Not easy to do politically to slow people down once they have expectations. Oregon, the same thing. Why?

SCHAFFNER: Well, we're slowing things down because we're concerned about cases going up and when you do that, we slow things down, remind people about how to behave and we can tamp down the increase again. We can keep that curve flat.

The COVID virus is going to be with us. We're working on vaccines. We're working on treatments, but in the meantime, we have to work on reducing transmission the way the COVID virus gets from one person to another.

Let's not go out into large crowds. Let's be restrained. Wear those masks and be prudent.

CUOMO: Hey, Doc, help me with this one. We talked about the anticipation or expectation of a second wave. But I don't see that the first one is ending. If cases are still going up in all of these different places, it seems like a real wave. You know that it has taken a different shape as it moves across the country.

But are we going to really have a second wave? Or is this thing just going to keep going? And if so, what is your outside limit guess as to how long we're dealing with this?

SCHAFFNER: Well, we're dealing with this for the immediate future, for months in advance. This is the end of the first wave. It's smoldering along and now, it's starting to increase again.

The big second wave that we're concerned about will come this fall when flu shot starts and also COVID starts.

[20:30:09]

Then they'll both start to increase, then we'll really be in it up to our necks, I'm afraid.

CUOMO: If the first wave is starting to mellow, then why do we see so many highest cases ever popping up around the country?

SCHAFFNER: It's in part because we're testing more that for sure. The more you look, the more you find. But COVID now is leaving metropolitan areas, it's beginning to sneak out into more rural areas where there are many people who really didn't believe in COVID because it wasn't around them. They weren't wearing masks. They didn't do social distancing. They didn't stay at home nearly the way we did in cities. And now it's beginning to surprise those folks, as it gets out into the less densely populated parts of the country.

CUOMO: Hospitalization rates. That's what we have to keep our eye on right? One --

SCHAFFNER: Yes.

CUOMO: -- because a lot of opportunists will use testing as an excuse. We see that with DeSantis in Florida. I keep trying to get him on the show to make the case. I mean, his state matters. It mattered early on, it's going to be big come election time. And he says well, it's just about testing but, you know, testing in Florida rose but then dropped and is now rising again, it's not just testing that is reflecting an increase in the numbers. It's spread of illness.

SCHAFFNER: Absolutely. And watch those hospitalizations. You know, we've been able to test people going to the hospital for a long time. So that's a very solid metric. If you were sick, you went to the hospital for the most part. And now, we can see in different parts of the country, hospitalizations, along with cases are rising. And that's really what we have to be concerned about. We don't want to another surge on our healthcare system that's difficult to manage. We've been through that right.

So we want to keep things flattened down if we can reduce the rate of transmission, then of course there are fewer very sick people who have to come to the emergency room and be admitted to the hospital. CUOMO: And even to the extent that New York has become a little bit of a through the looking glass moment. The upside of it has been, it's been pretty tight here in terms of what they'd let us do and when they'd let us do it, but it's given people confidence that the measures work. And I'm actually seeing more masks not less than I did a couple of weeks ago. And I think that's because people will kind of, one there's a little bit of a shame dynamic. You know, I give you that look, if you don't have the mask on, and it's weird for me because I have the antibodies and I've already been sick, but I still wear a fishing collar that I can pull up over my mouth. When I get that look, I gives people confidence when they hear the cases are going the right way to continue these protective measures. So hopefully, that culture catches on.

Dr. Schaffner, thank you for making us a little smarter and understand a little better. Thank you, sir, and the best for the weekend.

SCHAFFNER: You too.

CUOMO: All right. Here's a name that you may not be familiar with Sterling Higgins, don't know the name. Well, his story may sound really familiar in this era of outcry over the use of excessive force. This black man died months ago in police custody after calling them for help. Now there are new demands for answers and new video, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:37:17]

CUOMO: The family of Sterling Higgins is suing alleging officers used excessive force and delayed medical care following a struggle that was captured on video. I'm asked to warn you this video is disturbing. Now, I personally believe you need to watch the reality. It should make you uncomfortable. We have been too comfortable with too many bad things happening for too long. Our senior investigative correspondent Drew Griffin with this story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DREW GRIFFIN, CNN SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Sterling Higgins appeared high hallucinating and paranoid last March when police arrested him for trespassing. It's what happened next to the 37-year-old, that has resulted in yet another claim a black man was killed in custody as cameras rolled.

EDWIN BUDGE, ATTORNEY FOR HIGGINS ESTATE: It shows the officers hands grasping around Mr. Higgins' neck and throat and it shows Mr. Higgins stopping all movement while not officer has his hands in the area Mr. Higgins' throat.

GRIFFIN (voice-over): Seattle attorney Edwin Budge is suing Union City, Tennessee, the county and the officers involved on behalf of Higgins' estate, accusing jailers of excessive use of force failing to provide adequate medical care and causing his death The City County and people involved all deny wrongdoing jail house videos show minute by minute Higgins death from a scuffle with officers in which Higgins handcuffed, pulls a jailers hair to a scuffle on the floor where he is kicking feet as jailers struggle on top. And here in close up video enhanced by the attorney to zoom in on one of the jailers, gripping Higgins face and neck.

In a handwritten report, the jailer says Higgins was spitting and he put his hand under his chin.

BUDGE: If in fact, Mr. Higgins was alleged to be spitting and it certainly doesn't explain why an officer would keep his hands around somebody's neck or throat area for fully two additional minutes from the point that the person stops moving.

GRIFFIN (voice-over): The video shows to other supplying shackles to his legs and ankles as the hand of the officer holding Higgins' neck stays in place. It is 1:48 a.m. and 50 seconds minutes pass Higgins' body goes limp. And yet the lawsuit alleges the hand on his face and neck remain for two more minutes. At 1:54:27 the officer finally removes his hand. It's been nearly six minutes. The jailers do not call for medical help at this point. Instead, they drag Higgins' limp body onto a restraint chair and wheel him into cell 15.

BUDGE: Why they would strap a lifeless human body into a restraint chair spend minutes doing that, and then put him in a cell by himself when all movement had ceased for minutes on end, until medics are called is beyond my comprehension.

[20:40:07]

GRIFFINS (voice-over): At 2:14a.m., one minute before medical staff arrive, the officers remove his restraints. The EMS team finds no pulse, no breath, apply CPR, but it's too late. Their report says the primary symptom is obvious death. An autopsy report shows a tear in Higgens' neck muscle, the conclusion excited delirium due to methamphetamine toxicity, a controversial term used to describe accidental drug deaths sometimes in the hands of police.

TOMMY THOMAS, DISTRICT ATTORNEY GENERAL, OBION AND WEAKLEY COUNTY: Do I think that the officers handle this situation properly? No, I don't. I do not believe beyond a reasonable doubt that any of those officers were guilty of a crime.

GRIFFIN (voice-over): District Attorney General Tommy Thomas says he understands that some people won't agree with his decision not to charge the officers. Thomas says he presented the case to the grand jury as he always does when law enforcement is involved, but never showed the grand jurors the video.

THOMAS: The bottom line is this, it would have taken a couple hours to show the video to the grand jury. And I'd already decided that this case was not proper case for an agreement (ph).

GRIFFIN (voice-over): The grand jury agreed with the DAs recommendation to not press charges. Thomas says because the burden of proof is lower in civil courts. He advised Higgins family to get a lawyer and sue.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRIFFIN: Chris, the civil attorneys just incredulous that in the criminal case the grand jury never saw these tapes. They are vowing to hire autopsy experts to overlook the autopsy, overlook these videotapes. And if this gets to a trial and a jury in federal court, to make sure that those jurors see exactly how Sterling Higgins died. Chris.

CUOMO: Drew Griffin, thank you very much for the report. And you're right the video is a very big boost in terms of making a jury or anyone aware of the details of the situation. Thank you for the reporting and as always have a good weekend.

And again, now that you've watched that video in context, think about what your president said. Chokeholds, you know, when you say it, it sounds so perfect, so innocent. Amazing. Systemic racism in America is real. We should not be debating that. The debate is, how do you make it go away? How does change come? And from where from whom? A micro dive in somebody who looked exactly at this and has answers, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:46:55]

CUOMO: What's the good news? The good news is that we're dealing with it. Right? What's happening in the streets is real. You can't ignore it. The President is trying to ignore it, but you can't ignore it. You can't blame it on one political party. You can't blame it just on anarchist. You can blame of looting, and the violence on anarchists, and on extremists and insurgents and opportunists, but not the reality. The reality belongs to all of us. Never in modern history, have we seen this much agreement on racism in America. Says who? The Monmouth poll, latest 76% of you, 71% of white people calling racism and discrimination, a big problem in the United States, a 26 point jump since 2015. So, this is important where we are right now, this may not be like other times, it's hard for me to trust that. I've been here before, but it has never been the goal for just the minority. It has to be the majority.

How do we know people who've studied it and who've lived it like Mitch Landrieu not only lead one of America's blackest cities, he's also be leading a group that examines just how deep racism is built into our systems.

Mitch, thanks for helping me out brother. The idea of hearing Kudlow, an educated guy who comes from a big city, saying there's no such thing as systemic racism, your response?

MITCH LANDRIEU, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, he must not leave his house. You know, that's sad to hear from somebody that's in such a high position of authority who speaks on behalf of the President of the United States. And by the way, he's just wrong. You know, and all the work that we did last year I team with E Pluribus Unum traveled across the south, we went to 33 different counties. We went through 13 states, we talked to over 800 people, detailed long interviews with folks, white folks, black folks, brown folks, old, young, rural, urban, asking them, you know, tell me about race. What do you think about race? How do you feel about it? What impact does it have on you? And, you know, there is there is common ground in this country. But, you know, last year when we did this, it was clear that white folks and African Americans think a lot differently about it. You spoke to this last night a bit, Chris, when you went through for the American public what institutional racism is. But in the people that responded to our request to be interviewed, it is clear that white people in America don't have a real understanding or don't really believe that racism is institutionalized. And when they hear it, they don't particularly understand what it is, they think that we're calling every white person in America racist. And it's the exact opposite. It's biases that are baked into the institutions that when applied equally, and unequally have a disparate impact on African Americans.

African Americans, on the other hand, understand clearly what institutional racism is. But in the last couple of months, those numbers have started to move a bit. And it's clear that white people have started to wake up, listen, to hear, to see things that they walked by before, but never really noticed. And so that's why we're at a moment that if we take advantage of we can make some real headway.

[20:50:05]

CUOMO: No coincidence, that this President plays on being called a racist as a way to keep people at a distance, we're not going to solve this by calling millions of good people a racist and a bigot. Nobody's talking about doing that. But he is because that's how you keep people apart on this, by playing to who is to blame and his point, as opposed to how do we get to a better place? So what did you learn about what the aspects are of getting to a better place?

LANDRIEU: Well, you know, the American people, you know, as we say, down south might have been, you know, born at night, but we weren't born last night. And what President Trump is doing was is not something new. You saw this in 1972, with the southern strategy. You know, the whole idea was to attain power by separating whites and African Americans and convincing, you know, people who was on the same economic situation that they somehow should hate each other. And, of course, that's not true. You know, you preach about this every night that diversity is a strength, it's not a weakness.

So listen, this is really not even about how transparent Trump is being the play the race card, that's called a dog whistle. We know what it looks like. We know what it feels like. And now you're watching him move past the President of the United States, and shame on him for allowing it to happen. But what we found out, when we talk to people, this is really interesting. Most everybody, we talked to white folks and black folks had a great sense of where they lived and how proud they were of the city or the neighborhood that they lived in. Things that brought them together sports, music, culture, art, things like that. But when you start talking about, well, what neighborhood do you really live in? Do you live on this side of the tracks? Do you live on that side of the tracks? Do you feel like the schools that your kids go to really give everybody an equal opportunity? Or if you mentioned white privilege to a white person that their hair didn't catch on fire? They adamantly rejected the notion that somehow they got the benefit of the doubt because they were white. You got the exact opposite answer from African Americans.

However, almost everybody thought that the notion of equality was good that it was a goal, that we should reach for, but that somehow that it was out of our reach.

CUOMO: Right.

LANDRIEU: And of course, the killing of George Floyd has changed everything because almost every African American as a country saw their face in George Floyd's face. And they saw the knee of America on that next and it all came rushing in. And now the whole world is watching. You can't turn away from it. And you've got to run into this moment.

CUOMO: You know, and you can't let George Floyd be seen as a one off either. There are too many people who get the convenience of saying, oh, yes, this is really bad, and they should prosecute it. I don't understand what you people are so angry about, they're going to prosecute this one. Why are you upset? It's this distillation of an idea that you dealt with, and I want you to help the audience understand it.

We have to get past the idea that if something happens, that's good for the minority, it's somehow bad for the majority. And that, especially when they're, as you said, Mitch, on the same economic level, that white Americans are like, no, no, no I got it hard enough already. Though you guys are asking me to do even more for people who have a just the same as I do. How do we get past that?

LANDRIEU: Well, the biggest myth that's been perpetrated on the people of America, especially white people, is that if somehow people that don't look like them come into the fold, that they're going to take something from them as opposed to add something to that. Well, we know that's not true. If you just take a minute and think about it, there's a reason why we say diversity is a strength. Now think about this after the Civil War, you know, when we 4 million human beings who were enslaved, were forced to leave the south and find refuge someplace else. They added value, intellectual capital, intellectual rigor became doctors, became lawyers, became musicians. All of that great generation of new product went someplace outside of the south, it was like you sent your best players away. And so how could you possibly be better if all of your players are not on the field?

Everything that African Americans have begun to participate in, most evident in many of all of the fields have always performed well and we all lift up because the economy is better when everybody has an opportunity. I think that's clear, but we have use race to make ourselves afraid of other people who look different from us. And it's just a myth. It always has been. And it's one of those things that we just have to stand up. So the simple idea that's facing the country right now, it's actually a pretty clear choice. Do you believe that diversity is a strength? Do you think that everybody is equal? Do you think we should share opportunity and responsibility? Or do you believe that some of us are better than others?

Trump is on one side, and Trump is it, which is much more important than just him. Chris, you've been knowing him his whole life, he has completely captured the Republican Party, that party that used to exist before he got there is no more it is now unfortunately, becoming a very narrow, small, more white. And I just think that it is a mistake. And I think a lot of people in America many white people are beginning to understand this notion that somehow that they've been duped into thinking that if African Americans do well or our immigrants do well, that somehow they get to do poorly. We know that's not true.

[20:55:04]

CUOMO: Quickly, what's the next thing that needs to happen for us to move in the right direction?

LANDRIEU: Well, the first thing that's in front of us right now The criminal justice system, but what's going on in the criminal justice system, as you said last night is endemic in healthcare, as you can see clearly from COVID-19 and the disparate impact on African Americans. It's the same thing with the voting system. It's the same thing with the education system. We have to commit ourselves that we are going to march forward every day and begin to peel apart these institutional biases so that we can give everybody a fair shot so that all of us can do better.

CUOMO: Mitch Landrieu, you are the man, thank you for reaching out to me on this --

LANDRIEU: Thank you Chris.

CUOMO: -- and helping us continue the conversation. The plate behind you says everything. E Pluribus Unum out of many men --

LANDRIEU: Amen.

CUOMO: -- is one. That's us. Thanks, brother be well have a great weekend.

LANDRIEU: OK, thank you.

CUOMO: All right, in three weeks, three weeks, there could be another 16,000 COVID deaths. Now be honest, when I say 16,000 does it get you, does that number get you? That's the new projection. And it should get you because by percentage, it's a scary rate of increase.

But I don't think it's working for us anymore. I think the numbers are starting to make you glaze over, because we all want our reality back as we understood it, we have to figure something out for ourselves. We're not going back to what it was before, not for a long time. So let's talk about what is going to happen. And where will make it better or worse? We've got somebody who's been studying the trends very closely. Let's take it up, next.

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