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Cuomo Prime Time

CDC Predicts 130,000 U.S. Coronavirus Deaths By July 4; Tulsa Police Under Scrutiny After Video Shows Black Teens Cuffed For Jaywalking; North Carolina Sees Largest Single-Day Spike In Coronavirus Cases Since Pandemic Began. Aired 9-10p ET

Aired June 12, 2020 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: I hope you're having a good Friday night so far. It's not easy, where we are in America right now.

But I am Chris Cuomo. Let me help you get into the weekend. Welcome back to PRIME TIME.

We got to talk about what matters right now. And Coronavirus is exploding. And that's not to hype it. Look at the States on your map. I don't want the numbers to go up. I want them to go down. We all want them to go down. We all want to reopen.

But the way it's being done is different in different places. And we're seeing that reflect different caseloads. Things are getting worse in at least 19 States.

The CDC predicts 130,000 will be dead by July 4th, Independence Day. We all want to be free again. But we are in a pandemic. I know you don't hear a lot about it from leadership. You're not going to. You have to own your own reality.

We barely even get to see the Task Force any more. It was great to see Dr. Anthony Fauci with Wolf today, the Team Captain, Team Captain to Team Captain, talking about what matters.

You have to be reminded of the risks, OK? A mask is not weakness. It is the best way to keep yourself strong.

Let's bring in an expert, Immunologist, Professor Erin Bromage.

Welcome back to PRIME TIME.

Professor, the reality is there is fatigue. The numbers don't matter the way they used to. And I'm not indicting the American people. This is basic human

behavior that they're comfortable with the numbers. 100,000, 150,000, 200,000, the number is the number.

"It's not affecting everybody. It's affecting some people. I want to get back to my life," what effect is that having on what we see?

ERIN BROMAGE, PROFESSOR OF BIOLOGY, UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS DARTMOUTH: Yes. So, with us moving around more, trying to regain normalcy that we normally have for summer, we're just having more interactions. And with those more interactions come more opportunities for the virus to jump into a new host, meaning new infections.

So, we're just seeing this long, slow drawn-out burn through many of our States that could be avoided by just simple measures of social distancing, mask use, you know, simple things that could really help us contain this in a much better way than what we're doing now.

CUOMO: And let's be clear, because many people hear anything about restrictions, and they say, "You're killing us. You're killing the economy. We got to get back out there."

You're not saying don't reopen. You're saying how you reopen is what matters most. And you've seen a difference in impact with different places doing it different ways, how so?

BROMAGE: Yes, solve the biology, you solve the economy. You can't just reopen, and hope that this goes away. And we saw perfect examples of that in Texas this past week, where they reopened. They had their restaurants going.

And five of the restaurants had outbreaks in them, and they had to close down. And now that restaurant is closed for two weeks at least while the staff recover, while they disinfect their business, and then try to pick it back up again.

You've got to look at the biology, fix the biology, in order to solve the economy.

CUOMO: What about the countervailing proof, though, the Lake of the Ozarks. We showed it to everybody. We were like, "These people are just being stupid."

Only two confirmed cases out of that, in terms of, you know, if you can trust everything that we've been told, only two cases. So doesn't that reinforce the idea that "They didn't have masks. They weren't socially distancing. They're OK."

BROMAGE: Yes. I mean I don't know if we just got lucky. It was dumb luck with that.

It was never going to be a super-spreading event because it was outdoors. There was distance between people, and the virus really couldn't build up in the air without being blown away.

But I would have expected if there was more infectious people there that we would have had more transmission just person-to-person. I think they got lucky. And I think they were in a State that was fairly low in regards to disease prevalence at that time.

CUOMO: Let me go through a checklist of things that people are considering. Give me the yay/nay or the yes/but.

Summer camp for kids?

BROMAGE: Yes/but. I'm going to do summer camp for my kids. We've got that booked in mid-July.

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But I have spoken to the camp. Have understood what they're doing in order to protect not only the counselors but my own children. It's outdoors. They can appropriately distance most of the time. And they live in an area with very, very low infection rates at the moment.

CUOMO: Day camp or sleepaway?

BROMAGE: Just day camp.

CUOMO: Does it matter?

BROMAGE: Yes. So, I've had a couple of questions about people going into tents and sleeping in those? That brings people in close contact for an extended period, even though you are asleep. It's above my risk of threshold right now.

CUOMO: Summer trip, drive or fly?

BROMAGE: If you are going from a low-disease area to a low-disease area, and you're by yourself, take risks, take appropriate mitigation steps, and fly. But if you're going as a family, as soon as you get more than one or two people, every person you bring is an extra interaction they could have with somebody else, drive.

CUOMO: If I were able to go somewhere by myself, that would be a vacation. But I'm always going to be with my family. That's called a trip.

BROMAGE: Yes.

CUOMO: All right, so how about hotel or Airbnb?

BROMAGE: You know, they can be as good or as bad as each other.

Most hotels could not survive having an outbreak in their hotel. They wouldn't recover for weeks or months after that. So, they've implemented a high level of cleaning and just general distancing to be safe in their environment. So, most hotels should be doing this pretty well.

Airbnb, just call up, ask what they're doing to protect you, and if it seems like that matches your own risk level, then why not?

CUOMO: Are we going to have a Lake of the Ozarks lucky pass? Or do you think we're going to see a number pop from the protests?

BROMAGE: So, the protests are interesting.

There's certainly going to be transmission there. It's just a matter of how much there actually was. And with 20,000 cases a day, if we get 3,000 new cases or 4,000 new cases from the protests, you're not going to see that because of the way that the data bounces around.

We really just don't know, at this stage, if it's going to have a big bounce or not. But again, everything was there for spreading to occur, not super-spreading, but for person-to-person transmission chains.

CUOMO: Isn't it wild, looking at New York, live right now, how many people have masks on?

BROMAGE: Yes, it's right.

CUOMO: You know, it's such an interesting juxtaposition because they're taking to the streets as an act of, you know, protests, First Amendment right.

But, you know, they're - they're very open to being civilly disobedient because they believe in their cause. But they're wearing masks. It's such an interesting reveal about the mindset of the people there, you know?

BROMAGE: It is. And it really makes me wonder that they know the risks that they're facing. So, what they're out there doing and saying must be incredibly important to them to be doing this, knowing the risks that they do face.

CUOMO: Professor Bromage, thank you very much as always. I appreciate it. I wish you a very good weekend.

BROMAGE: You too, Chris.

CUOMO: All right. Now, there are two perspectives on the continued demonstration of the problem in this country when it comes to race and policing.

"Stop throwing these examples in the face. They're just such a small minority. You're making it people feel like this always happens. You're getting people upset for no reason."

Wrong! The reality has been ignored for too long. You only recognize it when you see it in a video that you can't avoid. But there are cases that you don't hear about, a lot of them, because they're not on video, or because they just escape notice until now.

And we're bringing them to you now because you need to understand the reality. This is our chance to get on the same page. Not to hate each other more, but to understand why there is hatred, to understand why there is unrest, and come together. It is the only way forward.

And there is another one in Tulsa that you have to see. I showed you this video last night, two teens whose only crime was walking down the middle of a pretty empty street. Do you even see a sidewalk? That's what jaywalking is about. How did they jaywalk?

The mother of the teen who got arrested, what does she see when she looks at the video? Her nephew also got cuffed. The Mom is here, with Attorney, next.

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CUOMO: A lot of Black teenagers in our country do believe that there's a chance they're going to get hurt when they deal with police. Imagine that, living with fear when you deal with the people who are supposed to protect you that they may not come home.

Now, that was true for their parents. That was true for their parents' parents. This was supposed to go away. We're supposed to get better. But it's not happening, in part because of realities like this.

This is newly released video of two Tulsa police officers on June 4th, showing the arrest of one Black teen and the handcuffing of a second for jaywalking.

In the video, you can see the two teens walking down the middle of the road before they are approached by an officer, on foot, and a second in a squad car. Once the officers reach the teenagers, one officer can then be seen forcing a teen on to his stomach to handcuff him, while holding him down with his arms and knees.

I want you to listen to that part of this exchange.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What are you doing?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What are you guys doing? Why are you trying to choke the--

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, hey.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why are you trying to choke his neck?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nobody's choking him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're choking him, man. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nobody's choking him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just chill out.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What are you doing?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What are you guys doing? Why are you trying to choke the--

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, hey.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why are you trying to choke his neck?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nobody's choking him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're choking him, man.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nobody's choking him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just chill out.

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CUOMO: The second teen is also handcuffed, but doesn't struggle, and remains standing. Now, before you say "See? If you - if you don't struggle, everything goes fine," come on. Come on, it's about the reason that they stop you in the first place.

You have to build in how would you feel, if you felt you were being stopped by no - for no reason, and it's not the first time you've heard about it. It's - and that's something that you live with. It's something that bothers you. Put it in context, OK?

At another point in the video, you can hear the struggling teen saying, "Call my mom," and at one point, threatening to beat the officer holding him, if he gets out of his handcuffs. Now look, that is going to provoke a situation. But you have to understand the context.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't comply with the police. There is law and order. It's just not as simple as the President wants to make it that might makes right. You have to work together in these situations.

Yes, you have to comply. But it has to be done, the policing, in a way that induces compliance by people who are in their right mind.

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The second teen can be heard repeatedly telling his companion to "Chill out" during these moments, all right? It's a lot to unpack here. But we still have to deal with the fundamental issue of why this happened to them, OK?

With us tonight is Tawanna Adkins. She's mom of one of the jaywalking teens, the aunt to the other one. And we have Damario Solomon-Simmons, Attorney.

Counselor, thank you.

Ma'am, I'm sorry to meet you because of this. But maybe this is the way it's supposed to be, so we can have this conversation. Why do you believe your son and your nephew were stopped for jaywalking?

DAMARIO SOLOMON-SIMMONS, ATTORNEY FOR JAYWALKING TEENS: Chris, first, I want to say thank you. It's good to talk to you again. And I appreciate you have us on your show.

I just want to, before we get started to go into the conversation--

CUOMO: Go ahead.

SOLOMON-SIMMONS: --as a pushback, teenagers, the only thing they were guilty of is walking while Black. They were not jaywalking. They are - were actually walking down the street, had been followed for quite some time by those officers. And there was no sidewalk.

And when you see the officer actually run up and grab the 13-year-old, illegally, they were crossing over to the street, so they can be more out in the open, because they were so terrified of being killed by these officers who were following them. So, there is no judgment--

CUOMO: Is that what they told you?

SOLOMON-SIMMONS: Absolutely. And that's what they told their mom.

CUOMO: And--

SOLOMON-SIMMONS: There's absolutely zero crime committed. There's just no reason for them to be contacted by the police. And Chris, this is why this happens. You have this unnecessary police contact that can escalate so quickly.

CUOMO: What did they tell you, Counselor, about why they stopped the kids in the first place?

SOLOMON-SIMMONS: Well, the stop is for jaywalking, allegedly, and it's bogus. It's pre-textual. It's stop-and-frisk. It's racial profiling. It's life in America for Black people, particularly Black young men.

And I want to say something else, Chris, about when he, the 13-year- old was actually physically and violently grabbed from behind, that triggered him.

I don't want to get too specific, but he is a victim of trauma, that he's had some specific devastating trauma in his life, and that was the specific reason for him, when he was grabbed that way, of his reaction, and one of the reasons why he was screaming for his mom - mother, which reminded you of George Floyd in another context.

So, there's a lot behind what happened there and, as you said, a lot to unpack. And this is what is not factored in oftentimes in these encounters. We talk about all - what the police are thinking. What about this

young man who lives in Tulsa, which is a place with racially disparaged treatment of Black people for a 100 years? You see--

CUOMO: Let me - let me come back--

SOLOMON-SIMMONS: Go ahead, Chris.

CUOMO: --let me come back to what happened at the stop in a second, Counselor.

But let me just bring mom in here, just to get a perspective on what this meant to you, when you found this out about your son, and what he explained to you, and what you believe about why this happened, Ms. Adkins, what do you believe?

TAWANNA ADKINS, MOM OF JAYWALKING TEEN: I believe that they were just racially profiled. They were singling him out.

CUOMO: The idea of jaywalking, what does that mean to you?

ADKINS: Jaywalking is walking down a busy street with sidewalks, street lights and walking without a walk signal. That's what jaywalking means to me.

CUOMO: How did your son explain how it felt in that moment to him and why he felt this happened to him?

ADKINS: He didn't know why. He just kept asking why? You know, "Why mom? Why? Why did they do me like that? Why did they do this to us?" I said, "Son, I don't know."

CUOMO: And without getting too much into personal information about a child, the Counselor talks about trauma. As you know, the pushback in this situation will be, "Well, if he had just done what his cousin did, he would have been OK, but he resisted."

What do you want people to know about your son?

ADKINS: That this incident triggered him. He's had some prior trauma and doesn't like to be touched. And this - this just triggered. It's like pulling a Band Aid off a old scar.

CUOMO: Now, Ms. Adkins, forgive me for a second, all right?

Counselor, let's have the real conversation here, because we know what minds have to be made open on this. It's not me. It's not you. It's not people who've lived around - who've lived around people of different color and have seen different situations.

There are a lot of people who will see this video, and they'll see everything that's wrong with this kid, and say, "He's fighting the cops. He's fighting the cops. He says he's going to kill the cops, spitting at the cops.

You know, this is exactly why the police have to worry about their own lives. This isn't about this teenager. It's about these cops, having to deal with somebody who wants to hurt them, when they're just enforcing the law."

How do you respond?

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SOLOMON-SIMMONS: Well first of all, I'll say they're not enforcing the law. They're breaking the law (INAUDIBLE).

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why are you trying to choke his neck?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nobody's choking him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're choking him, man.

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SOLOMON-SIMMONS: It was the officers who broke the law by violating their constitutional rights by searching and seizing them without probable cause.

So, Chris, they are 13-year-old kids who have the right to walk down the street to their relatives' house, free from police contact, that's number one.

Number two, there is no evidence that we've seen that the 13-year-old hit or kicked or head-butted this officer. Yes, he was moving, and there are very good reasons for that. But he was handcuffed. He was being manhandled. And he was being beaten. We have video of him being kicked several times. We have witnesses who saw this.

So, I would say it is about the activity and the actions of these officers who violated the law because they've decided that these teens had committed the crime of walking while Black.

And then once they grabbed this individual from behind, that's a battery, Chris, how would we feel, you would feel, or anybody feel, if you're walking along, minding your business, and you see someone following you that has - on TV, every image you see is Black men being beaten, and women, pummeled, and killed, by officers, and now you're grabbed from behind without any reason. These--

CUOMO: People will say the problem is the media exposure, that the reality is, that this almost never happens, and it's just people like me, telling the stories that get people all worked up, and they think this is going to happen all the time, when this is really just an exception that how - almost never happens, and it's blown out of proportion.

SOLOMON-SIMMONS: Well, unfortunately, for us, who are Black and live in America, this happens all the time. This has happened to me on several occasions. I've been racially profiled. I'm a former University of Oklahoma football player, have a law

degree, have a Master's degree, and I get racially profiled more often than I can count. This happens all the time.

Racism is not new. The cameras and the video cameras, videoing of it is new.

CUOMO: What is the disposition of the case right now, Counselor?

SOLOMON-SIMMONS: Right now, they put two bogus felony charges on Ms. Adkins' son. A 13-year-old is charged with two felonies. And so, we're going to fight those charges.

I have reached out to the Tulsa Police Chief. I have not heard back from him. And we'll be reaching out to the District Attorney's Office, because we think these charges should be dropped.

Both teens suffered. Ms. Adkins' son suffered physical and emotional injuries. They're seeking medical attention for that. Her nephew is - they are petrified to even go outside. They're so afraid.

And so, we're going to make sure they'll get the type of treatment that they need. And we want these officers to be disciplined, because this cannot be OK in Oklahoma, in Tulsa, Oklahoma, or America.

CUOMO: They say there's an investigation going on of this incident. We haven't heard anything else since Wednesday. We'll keep an eye on that.

Ms. Adkins, I'm going to let you go. I don't want you to have to, you know, just steep in this situation.

And I'm sorry for you having to be present during a hard conversation with the Counselor, but we got to get the issues out there, or otherwise, we're not going to move forward.

I just want to get your take as a mom, and a local, to a statement by a member of the police, in Tulsa Police Department, Major Travis Yates, who said, "All the research says, we're shooting African- Americans about 24 percent less than we probably ought to be, based on the crimes being committed."

Is that just a bad turn of phrase? Was he taken out of context? Or does that translate something else to you?

ADKINS: It translates something else to me.

SOLOMON-SIMMONS: Chris, I can tell you that Major Yates has had a long history of these type of comments, because he is a top Official in the Tulsa Police Department, and this is how they feel, this is what policing is, here in Tulsa.

He's also the officer that said that this was - Black Lives Matter meant there was a war on police. And this is the type of mentality that allows an individual like Betty Shelby, who shot my client, Terence Crutcher, with his hands up in the air, and allows her to continue, in Oklahoma, to teach other officers how to be a police officer.

CUOMO: Ms. Adkins, thank you for talking to us about this. We'll stay on the situation. We'll monitor the situation. That's the job. I wish you well at home.

Damario Solomon-Simmons, as always, Counsel, thank you for making the case.

SOLOMON-SIMMONS: Hey, it's so good to see you, Chris. We'll see you soon.

CUOMO: God bless and be well.

SOLOMON-SIMMONS: Good night, Chris.

CUOMO: All right, Seattle, right? This is a situation that people want to see stop. Is it as simple as that? Hell, no, it's not as simple as that. It's going to take a long time. It's going to take a lot of people coming together.

Now, the situation in Seattle isn't as easy to understand either. You heard from the Mayor, a little earlier in this program. But what do the protesters and police have to say now that the President acts like this is Mad Max?

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We're going to take you live to the streets, get the reality where it is, next.

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CUOMO: President Trump, State TV, fired up about Seattle, why? It's picture perfect for them.

"All about the Left, trying to take away everything, take away your cops, take away everything good. Make everything bad. The City occupied by anarchists, threatening to take hold of everything."

The City's Mayor told us tonight, the depiction, not true.

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MAYOR JENNY DURKAN, (D) SEATTLE, WASHINGTON: I don't know why the President is so afraid of democracy. Free speech is part of who we are. It's how we started as a nation. And we will be fine in Seattle. We don't need the President's help.

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CUOMO: Last time she said, "Stay in your bunker."

Dan Simon is on the ground.

Dan, what's the reality?

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DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well hi, Chris. It's like a Friday Night Social scene out here. You have you the Street-like Festival situation, hundreds of people. There's a barbecue going on.

You got people walking around with their six packs of beer. You have folks who aren't necessarily part of this Movement, just coming by to have a look at things, and take photos of this Police Department in this current state.

I've seen families out here, and people just wanting to be together and sort of take in the scene.

Chris, I watched both of your interviews with the Mayor, and I thought what she said was very revealing. There seems to be no hurry to try to get these folks out of this area.

And, in the meantime, I also want you to listen now to a protester who was responding to the President's fiery tweets, and you're also going to hear from a police officer who acknowledged that the Department has made some mistakes.

Take a look.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm not scared of Donald Trump, no. And I'm not scared of those police officers either.

We're going to stay outside this building, whether they come here or not. We're going to take this building over, whether they're outside threatening us or not. We brought the fight to them on their frontlines and pushed their line back. We're not afraid of them.

LT. TAMMY FLOYD, SEATTLE POLICE DEPARTMENT: We want - we want a dialog. We want to communicate, right? But if the - but if the public is so angry at us, how do we start that? How do we do better? People expect better. We need to be better.

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SIMON: And Chris, I want to give that Police Officer, Lieutenant Tammy Floyd, a special shout-out. She came out here, on her own, nobody told her to come out. She spent hours just mingling with the protesters, listening to their concerns.

And it just made me wonder what things would be like if you had more officers, like her, who just came out, just to listen to what these protesters have to say. Chris?

CUOMO: Dan Simon, thank you very much. Appreciate the reality from the streets.

So, the President abandoned North Carolina for his ceremonial re- nomination. But while he's blaming the Democratic Governor, he's ignoring the real battle. They have one of the highest percentages of COVID-positive test results in the nation.

The Health Secretary who made that announcement tells us what they're up against, next.

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CUOMO: If you guys want to deal in fact and fiction so much, try this.

POTUS was forced to move his Nominating Convention to Florida. That's fiction. The fact is he didn't want to accept a scaled-down version in North Carolina for safety's sake.

The numbers there are alarming. But we haven't heard from the President about that. Just today, North Carolina saw its highest single-day spike since the pandemic began with more than 1,700 new cases.

Hospitalizations, I keep telling you, that's the number to watch, they are climbing. And remember, this is the first wave. This isn't this second wave we're worried about in the fall.

The State's top Health Official says they're just hitting the peak. North Carolina Health Secretary, Mandy Cohen, joins me right now.

Thank you very much for joining me.

MANDY COHEN, NORTH CAROLINA HEALTH SECRETARY: Chris, great to be on. And can I say, give a shout out to my family, who are all New Yorkers, and are such big fans of you, and the show, and are glad to see that you're back in good health, as is your family. CUOMO: Well.

COHEN: So, thanks and thanks for having me on.

CUOMO: Tell them they are part of a very exclusive group if they like what I do.

Listen, the reality where you are right now, why is North Carolina just now seeing a peak?

COHEN: Yes. Well, you have to understand North Carolina, under Governor Cooper's leadership, took early and aggressive action to move to stay-at-home. So, we never had that first peak that you saw in the Northeast.

And it bought us really valuable time to be able to be ready to respond. Our numbers had been stable for quite some time. And it gave us the time to build our hospital surge capacity.

It gave us the time to find the protective equipment we needed. It gave us time to build our testing capacity, our tracing capacity. And we're still working on those things. But we certainly are way better- prepared to respond now.

And with stable numbers, you know, a few weeks ago, we started easing restrictions, and people started moving around more. And - and we knew, when people move around more, we're going to see more virus spread, and we're going to have to learn to live with this virus.

And I think what we're seeing is the first signs of an increase, here in North Carolina. And now, we're going to use the capabilities that we've built to make sure we can respond.

CUOMO: So, it's interesting situation, because you took the time to build up the capacity, but now the capacity is being tested because it - the cases keep going up. So, is there a way that this should have done better? Is there an adjustment that you have to make?

COHEN: Well look, our fate is not sealed here, right? We're seeing cases go up. But there are still very concrete things folks can do right now.

We talked extensively today, the Governor, and I did, at a press conference, about the importance of wearing face coverings, the importance of washing your hands all the time, and waiting six feet apart, to our businesses, to doing the things that we think it takes with ongoing recommendations, and some restrictions, to keep the virus level low.

So, our fate is not sealed. If we do the things we need to, right now, if we continue to ramp up our testing, if we do the tracing, if people stay home when they're sick, right, we - we can still keep the viral spread low.

But it's going to take work on from everyone, right? This is an all- hands-on-deck kind of effort. CUOMO: What has the politicizing done to the public messaging? How are people in North Carolina responding to the call for masks and to be careful and to take it seriously?

COHEN: You know, we have a number of businesses who have really stepped up and been leaders.

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Our Restaurant Association started their own program called "Count on Me" that says, "You know, look, we're going to take this really seriously. We're going to do the social distancing and the masks." So, that's been great.

But, you know, that's not universal. And we want folks to make sure that they are following all of the guidance because it is going to take all of those individual actions, put together, that will keep the virus level low enough, so that we can find the balance between reigniting the economy and protecting public health.

We're trying to find that middle ground here where we can live with this virus. But that's hard and we're watching the numbers closely. And we don't want to have to go backwards. But the Governor and I have both said, if we have to, we will, but there are things we can do to prevent that.

I very much want to get our kids back to school this August.

CUOMO: Right.

COHEN: That is our - that is a top priority for us. So, we're working hard to see now what we can do to step up our efforts to make sure the virus isn't spreading around.

CUOMO: I left politics out of it, until the end for a reason, because the other stuff matters more. But in parlance that you'll remember, from how we talk up here in New York--

COHEN: Yes.

CUOMO: --did you guys, as Democrats, do the President dirty by getting him to move the Rally out of the State. Was this about politics?

COHEN: Look, we were happy to work with the Republican Convention. We - the Governor welcomed the Republican Convention here. We wanted to - look, we've worked with other event organizers.

We worked with NASCAR, for example, they ran the Cola-Coca-- Coca-Cola 600, had a great event. They did it with no spectators. But it - they brought thousands of people together to run that race. But they did it with protocols.

And so, look, they made a decision to go elsewhere and, you know, we will focus on keeping the virus level low, so we can focus on getting our kids back to school.

CUOMO: Mandy Cohen, thank you very much. God bless you and the kids. I hope you're healthy, strong heads, strong hearts.

COHEN: Thank you.

CUOMO: Be well.

COHEN: Thanks, Chris. Same to you, stay well.

CUOMO: All right. Now look, almost invariably, I and everybody else on this show, we put you first, but not with this next guest. This next guest is for me as much as it is for you.

Chuck D is joining us tonight, an 80s icon, he's a present-day icon, as far as I'm concerned, one of the Founders of "Public Enemy," real political music, the birth place of hip-hop in this generation.

He's been fighting for equality for decades. And I want to talk to him about what today feels like to him, and what role people like him, now, and the newer generation, need to step up and perform, right now, next.

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CUOMO: I hope now we're starting to understand that this isn't just about anger, what you're seeing in the streets.

It's about hurt. It's not about one case. It's about all the cases. It's not about the police, but all institutions. It's not about one right, but it's about what is right, on a large scale.

Now, our next guest is an Artist and an Activist, who's been drawing attention to these issues for decades. Let's get insight from somebody who was so formative in my own development.

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CUOMO: Coming up in Queens, and way beyond, Founder of legendary political music group, "Public Enemy," Chuck D.

Good to see you again, Sir.

CHUCK D, ARTIST/ACTIVIST, FOUNDER, "PUBLIC ENEMY": Yes, Sir (INAUDIBLE). Usually I'm on the app, and I hear feedback. Usually I'm on the app, I hear feedback. I'm going to (INAUDIBLE) put my headphones.

CUOMO: All right, get it - get it the way you wanted.

CHUCK D: All right, I got it the way I want them. Yes, usually I'm on the - with the anxiety of the Skype, the YouTube, the Zoom, but yes, the Queens background, Chris, yes.

CUOMO: Well I'm Queens. You were - you came up where? Nassau, right, in Roosevelt, right?

CHUCK D: Yes. I came up in Long Island, Chris.

CUOMO: Yes. So, look, I grew up with a deep understanding, coming up through high school, and college, you, and Flavor Flav, helping people understand what the issues were, in a way that was catchy, and that was your hope, I know, I've spoken to you about it before, to help people who didn't live it, understand the pain, and the reality.

Do you believe that what we're experiencing in the country right now is different?

CHUCK D: Yes, it's very different.

The beautiful thing about this, Chris, is that old people were setting that standard. Now, every generation has been angry. We could go all the way back. You know, every generation could say, "You know what? We didn't give a F about what's going on."

But this generation, right here, is connected, where their voices are heard. Their voices are felt. They're going about doing something.

In the past, hip-hop might have been that narrative, in the 80s and the 90s, and we did it through the connectivity of recordings.

Before that, the Movement of the 70s, and especially of the 60s, where people got together, and you had the 50s, 40s. So, they all could have been a Movement and a change going on.

But this generation, right here, is one that's connected. They're connected by technology, the feeling and the anger, not stopping at their vocabulary heard (ph) throughout the world.

And when you saw this situation come up, and just last night, seeing, you know, four Black men talk on CNN, Bun B, Stephen Jackson, Kendrick Perkins, speaking truth to power, you see this all connected and coming together. And the technology has something to do with it.

But the Movement of people, it's like in basketball, they talk about positionless basketball, well, this is leaderless-looking leadership in a Movement. But there's leadership there in all these voices coming to the forefront. So, yes-- CUOMO: Well, it always had to be from the bottom-up, though Chuck.

CHUCK D: Yes, it's true.

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CUOMO: I mean, you know, one of the reasons you had such an impact is because you were bottom-up.

And that's what we've seen with every social change of any meaning in this society, since its foundation. The people have to get to a point of outrage, where they become a catalyst for change.

They - the block has always been that minorities can't do it by themselves. They've always needed buy-in from the majority to address power, because politicians act out of fear of consequence more than good conscience.

Do you think that that will happen this time that we'll see the next wave of change since the early 60s?

CHUCK D: You know, man, you see that people are connected throughout the world. The world is looking in at this stage right now. And this call and this action is looking across the world globally, and young adults, now, I don't call them like young people, they're young adults.

We're in the country right now where the narrative has scoped itself all the way up to a bunch of 70-year-olds, and 80-year-olds trying to run the country, where a 21-year-old is like what - what - what does this mean for me?

I have to be ageist right here to tell - position for people 60 and forward to tell young people at 22, 23, 30, 35 that they are in leadership, when they want to buy a crib for their kids, when they want to go and say, "OK, what does this mean? I want to go into my business. I want to run my community."

This is very local. This is very local. That's the - that's the most important thing about this Movement.

People are looking in their hometowns, and realizing, "Look, there's that judge, there's this jury in this community, there's a situation of administration, and there's a Fraternal Order of Police that's in this town that's going to see and hear me right now." You've got to look at this as being totally different than ever before.

This situation, you know, unfortunately is connected to my brother, Stephen Jackson. But he has stepped up to the point where this situation shouldn't have - shouldn't have happened, so he could be prominent. He's seen every week talking about basketball and other things.

But for years, they've talked about him being this other character. So, in that bracket right there, that leadership right there, people are saying the leadership is there, all the people that were cast to the front as being problems, "Oh, this guy, oh, Kaepernick takes a knee, what's going on? Why aren't they happy?"

And they are dealing with the issues straightforward. And I salute them. I salute them. And they - and they are connected. Everybody is connected, because of the virus, to the Instagrams, the Skypes, the Zooms, the FaceTimes and all that.

But now, the narrative is coming across from a substance because you lock people in the house for whatever reason, for a month, a month and six weeks, because of whatever reason, and especially the pandemic, and then, all of a sudden, they see confusion in the media, confusion from the POTUS, or the CIC, and then, all of a sudden you're going to tell them to be quiet, when they have nothing to look forward to in the future?

You can't have a 75-year-old, 77-year-old, 79-year-old talk about the future for young people in their 20s. There has to be some kind of cut-off point. That's what's - that's what's (INAUDIBLE) young folks, Chris, for a longest period of time.

I have to be ageist when it comes down to that because when you do the math, right, and you're in your 70s, and you're talking about a future, and then people say, "Well where's my future? Where do I - I happen? When does the banks give me a break? When does my education count? When can I kind of like not be all thrust and packed together?"

This is very different, man. So, yes, hip-hop is speaking out to it. But hip-hop was that medium in the 80s, 90s, and maybe the beginning of the decade. But now, it's social media and technology. And the technology has come back like a sword.

And - and the POTUS happened to have his what - whatever he's doing, like his first Rally speech?

CUOMO: Yes.

CHUCK D: In Tulsa, Oklahoma?

CUOMO: On Juneteenth.

CHUCK D: The same town neighborhood was burned down in 1921? We're going to see that go down kind of interesting, won't we?

CUOMO: Yes, I'll be there. I'll be watching. Chuck D?

CHUCK D: I'm telling you--

CUOMO: Listen.

CHUCK D: Yes, Sir?

CUOMO: I got to go. But I want to put you on the spot. This has to be a continuing conversation of how changes made manifest, where it hits, where it misses, what is needed.

Otherwise, we know what happens. Time passes and things start to fade. And we start to look for new things, and there's fatigue. We have to keep the conversation going. You are one of the people I need at the table. So, I will come back to you if you have me.

CHUCK D: From New York, Queens, into Long Island, locals (ph) was very important that focus put on (ph) things, the local (ph) was right in front of your face. They can lie to them no more, bro.

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CUOMO: Done. Chuck D, be well.

CHUCK D: Yes.

CUOMO: God bless. I'll see you soon.

CHUCK D: All right.

CUOMO: Be right back.

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CUOMO: Well, couple of people I want to introduce you to tonight, didn't ask to be Ameri-CANs, not like this anyway, but their stories of what happened on this day, only a few years apart, illustrates the meaning of Ameri-CAN.

June 12th is now called Loving Day, right? It's named for the interracial couple who changed history, Mildred and Richard Loving. Remember them?

A Virginia Sheriff burst into their home in the middle of the night, 1958, only weeks after they wed. The codes they had broken included one that made it unlawful for a White person to marry anyone who wasn't.

They pleaded guilty, accepted a 25-year ban from the State, but were arrested for visiting again in 1967. Mildred reached out to Attorney General Bobby Kennedy. He sent them to the ACLU. Ultimately, the Supreme Court ruled in their favor, 53 years ago, today, Loving versus Virginia.

Today also marks 57 years since Civil Rights Hero, Medgar Evers' assassination, after weeks of attacks and threats. His killer avoided justice twice, when all-White juries deadlocked. He wasn't convicted until 1994.

Why do we have to look at the past? Because we don't want to be doomed to repeat it.