Return to Transcripts main page
Cuomo Prime Time
D.A.: Not Seeking Death Penalty Against Ex-Officer Rolfe; Officer Brosnan Breaks Silence About Brooks Killing; Facebook Removes Trump Campaign Ad Which Displayed Nazi-Like Symbol. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired June 18, 2020 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: It's - it's surreal.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: It's great.
COOPER: It really is surreal.
GUPTA: Yes.
COOPER: I also, you know, I think there's lot of people who, you know, Father's Day, Mother's Day are hard for people who've lost a parent.
And growing up at, you know, I had never paid attention to Father's Day because my dad had passed away, and it was just too painful. So to actually be celebrating Father's Day is it blows my mind. So, it's just another of the kind of the wonderment--
GUPTA: It's very special.
COOPER: --to what's - what's going on. Sanjay, thank you very much.
GUPTA: Yes. You got it.
COOPER: Happy Father's Day.
GUPTA: Thank you.
COOPER: And the news continues right now with another father, Chris Cuomo. Chris?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST, CUOMO PRIME TIME: I am Chris Cuomo. Welcome to PRIME TIME.
It's time now, if you would indulge me, for a different kind of diagnosis, one of a sickness that is even more pervasive than COVID- 19. I want you to witness the virulence in real-time. President Trump holding a rally that represents everything experts
that he picked say not to do, the negation of everything you just spent an hour, with Sanjay and Anderson, hearing about as helpful and necessary.
It's going to a State with rising cases that just saw its largest single-day jump in cases, a State where the health experts are worried about a mass, unmasked gathering.
And he is going to do exactly what creates the most risk there. "Masks? Optional. Social distancing? Optional. Please come. All of you come. Let's have a huge crowd."
But Trump is asking everyone, who enters, to support him, to sign a release that he is not responsible if anything happens as a result of everything he's asking them to do for him. He asked you to come to what he knows he shouldn't, tells you the only things that help are optional, and then wants you to make sure he has no responsibility.
In this, you have the perfect example, a metaphor of the malady and of the madness that has made a mockery of the Trump Presidency. One set of rules for the Donald, another for you.
Another example? Look what happens around him in the White House. "Oh, there are a couple of cases." Everyone wears a mask. Everyone gets tested. All cases are traced thoroughly but not for the rest of you.
Those he looks down upon at a rally, or just living in this country, no need to be careful. That's weakness. His Presidency is riddled with his own self-interest.
He literally went to the Supreme Court, hoping for a ruling that Obama was wrong to help DREAMers the way he did, and thought they would just miss the fact, at the Court, that he has no plan to help them even though he promised to.
He lost at the Supreme Court, again, why, because in America rules matter. In America, we surrender the "Me" to the "We." In America, the highest interest must always be justice, not just Trump.
Trump called the defeat a "Shotgun blast to the face." This, the same man who said all this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: We are going to deal with DACA with heart.
I have a love for these people.
We want DACA to happen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: Lies! Period! He wants to kick more than 200,000 frontline workers, including 27,000
who are in healthcare, out of the country, in the middle of a pandemic. Why? Because he thinks it will be a promise kept to his base.
But his Presidency and its marginal popularity is proof you can no more cater to just a base than you can hope to win again by just being base, by dividing, lying, and defying the command of leadership and responsibility that falls squarely on the shoulders of the highest leader in the land.
And taking responsibility is just something this Administration, and this man, refuse to do.
Another example, the Administration refuses to take responsibility for the growing number of Coronavirus cases. And by the Administration, I mean the President. He looks at the map that you see, and he says, "Not me."
Again, why? Because the President sees reopening as good for him, reopening at any cost, so that it doesn't cost him. But the truth is evident in the pain.
[21:05:00]
Hospitals are filling up at critical rates. The herd has another 1.5 million of our brothers and sisters find themselves out of work, and the numbingly harsh Coronavirus death tolls, the deaths that this President doesn't even talk about anymore.
Today's Supreme Court decision, along with the earlier one this week, to protect LGBTQ workers from discrimination, remember, he promised to be a champion for that community. It's all proof that he has never been about fairness for any group that doesn't favor him.
But a President must fight for fairness or fail. And Trump's stubborn silence on systemic bias has been stunning, as we see streets filled, all over this country, with those who demand better than his deference to division, and his obvious and ugly attempts to play you, as Americans, for fools.
The man who planned a rally in Tulsa, Oklahoma, the site of a horrible massacre on Juneteenth, and then refused to acknowledge what sent so many to the streets.
Now he wants you to believe that he did a good thing. He made Juneteenth famous. He made Juneteenth famous, that quote nobody had ever heard about it until now. So, he thinks his rally schedule was a good thing.
But here is the truth. You know who had no clue about Juneteenth? Him. He admitted they didn't think about it, when scheduling the rally because he'd never heard of it. And his people had to tell him. They put out statements marking the day before this year.
Too many are now painfully aware of his ignorance, and his arrogance, and that is the deadliest and most dangerous combination in leadership, ignorance and arrogance, like when he said he did us all, including President Obama, a favor with the Birther bigotry, or his latest propaganda.
Did you see this? Garbage! An inverted triangle symbol. Gee, where have we seen this before? Oh, right. The Nazis used it to mark political opponents.
These are all symptoms of what ails Trump's Administration. All the dog whistles, all the injustice, all the irresponsibility, all the division, it's all about him, and his, not about you, not about yours.
This is a truth laid bare by John Bolton's book, with claims Trump asked for China's help with re-election, that he said to China it was OK to build internment camps for Muslims.
He defended the murder of a journalist to cover for his daughter, why, because he wants to serve a second term. And he even thought invading Venezuela would be "Cool." That's his word.
That's what Bolton says in the book. And that's why it's racing up the Republicans' do-not-read list faster than POTUS' Twitter feed. It's a story we've heard time and time again what Bolton says, John Kelly, Jim Mattis, a truth that is painfully obvious to anyone, if you have an open mind.
The only question is whether what got him here will get him to another term. And here's the good news. He can't control that. Only you can. Just see the situation for what it is.
And with that, we turn to what we have to focus on right now, several new developments from Atlanta after the police killing of Rayshard Brooks.
More than 24 hours after telling the world that fired officer Garrett Rolfe could face a possible death sentence, if convicted, he now insists that something he was never looking for, the prosecutor. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAUL HOWARD, FULTON COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Well, I think it's clear that we are not asking for the death penalty. We simply cited that because statutorily that is one of the possible sentences, but we're not seeking the death penalty. I don't think anyone rationally expected that we would ask for the death penalty in this case.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: The language should have never been dangled out there, then.
And similarly, D.A. Howard maintained that the other officer charged, Devin Brosnan, is willing to turn State's witness. That directly contradicts what his Defense team told you, right here, last night.
A short time ago, after posting bond, Brosnan broke his silence about the shooting.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DEVIN BROSNAN, ATLANTA POLICE OFFICER: I have full faith in the criminal justice system. I think this is a tragic event. And it's totally a total tragedy that a man had to lose his life that night.
[21:10:00]
I felt he was friendly. He was - he was respectful. I felt like, you know, he seemed like someone who actually needed my help. And I was really just there to see what I could do for him and make sure that he was safe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: All right, so let's take a look at the state of play in this case. Let's bring in our Legal and Law Enforcement experts, Joey Jackson, and Charles Ramsey.
Gentlemen, thank you.
Charles, let me start with you quickly here. I don't want to unfairly paint the prosecution. The death penalty option was put out there as a possibility by them. Brosnan, being a State witness, was put out there by them.
This prosecutor was on TV, before charges were filed, signaling that charges were in all likelihood coming. And that is something we rarely hear from a District Attorney in this situation at all, let alone in advance.
Any concern about politics creeping into the performance early on?
CHARLES RAMSEY, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST, FORMER PHILADELPHIA POLICE COMMISSIONER, FORMER WASHINGTON, D.C. POLICE CHIEF, PARTNER, 21ST CENTURY POLICING SOLUTIONS: Well, I don't know if it's politics or not, but certainly this moved very fast for the criminal justice system, as it relates to dealing with police officers.
I've had cases that have gone on for a year or two years. And I am certainly not saying that it should take that long. But I am saying that it's been, what, a week, if that long. And when you move fast like that, sometimes you can make mistakes.
I agree with you. They never should have dangled that language out there because there are people that then start looking for that as a possible outcome. And I never thought that it was even remotely possible that it would end up as a death penalty--
CUOMO: Right.
RAMSEY: --case, personally.
CUOMO: Joey, explain to people why it was in the realm of possibility in context of the charge, and why you believe, or don't believe that it will be in play?
JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: So, I see things in other way. I don't think it's irresponsible on his part. I think it was responsible on his part to give people the sense of what the statute provides.
He is charged with felony murder. What does that mean? It means that in the commission of a felony, someone died. What is the underlying felony? Aggravated assault.
A prosecutor, you want to let people know what is, as you mentioned, Chris, the state of play. The charge that he has called for provides for, if it is pursued, the death penalty.
Could he have clarified and said at the press conference "We're not seeking it?" He did not. But at the same time, he let people know what the deal was. So, to the extent that he was informing, and informational, I think it was inappropriate that he said so.
As to the other issue, briefly if I can, you mentioned, and dangling also the, you know, the other one was going to - the other officer was going to cooperate, he wasn't, for all we know, the other officer's lawyer could have gotten to him, and shaken him, and said, "What are you talking about? I think you have a viable case. Let's take that back. Let's walk that back." So, we don't know what happened.
All I can tell you is, when we saw the press conference, I thought that - that Mr. Howard laid out the facts. He laid out the law. And he laid out the policy as it relates to not shooting a TASER from someone, you know, you can't shoot a TASER if somebody is running away, much less a gun, he said that.
CUOMO: Right.
JACKSON: You have to render it. He said that. And so, there were a lot of things, I think, he mentioned that were very responsible. And, in light of that, I think that you have to inform the people and be transparent.
CUOMO: All right.
JACKSON: That's very important.
CUOMO: Charles, what's your take on what we're hearing about officers in Atlanta seemingly protesting in their own way by not showing up for duty, not returning calls?
The Mayor, in response now, or the municipality, at least, is giving bonuses. They're saying it was about, you know, all the extra duty during protests. But it could also be seen optically as kind of paying them to come and do the job they're already getting paid to do.
What's your take on it?
RAMSEY: Well, you know, listen. This is a tough situation for police across the country. I do not agree that officers should not come to work. I mean this
isn't pro bono work. You do get paid to do this, and you have an oath that you've taken, and you have a responsibility that goes along with that.
Having said that, though, I think it's important that we think about - we need to have balance when we're talking about policing in this country.
The last month almost has been very, very negative, to a point where, in some instances, it's almost as if police are being demonized as a - as a group. And we have to be a little careful because it is demoralizing. It does, I think, wear on officers, not just in Atlanta, but across the country.
So, these Police Chiefs have to hit these roll calls, have to talk to the men and women, keep their morale up, as high as they can, get them out there doing their jobs.
If they do their jobs properly, they have nothing to be concerned about. If they don't, or if they're one of these people, like we saw in both Minneapolis and Atlanta, yes, you've got a problem.
And so, I think we just need to make sure that they have the balance they need, so they can continue to get out there, and do their job.
And if I could just say one more thing about the - the prosecutor, my whole point was that in - this is a heightened emotional state. Words matter. And you have to be very careful.
[21:15:00]
If you knew from the beginning, you weren't going to seek a death penalty, then either don't throw it out there, or throw it out there, and then say "But that's not where we're going," because people have unrealistic expectations, when something like that is thrown out, in this current state that we're in right now.
CUOMO: Fair. So, let's do this. Let's take - let's take a quick break. And then, Gentlemen, please stay with me, because let's take on the really hard part of this conversation, OK?
There are arguments that will be made that may make convictions difficult in this case, for both officers. I know a lot of people don't see it that way. But we're doing a disservice if we don't run the analysis all the way through.
So, let's take a break. We'll come back, and we'll go through what may well happen at trial, next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: In the Rayshard Brooks case, things have moved very quickly from the policing and prosecutorial perspective. However, you got to be reasonable, or you have to be at least aware of what is to come.
Garrett Rolfe, the officer who was fired, his case, while there are charges, probably won't be presented to a Grand Jury before January. Now, he is in custody tonight, but has already been moved from the Fulton County jail to another facility for security reasons.
He's going to have to wait a long time to learn his fate. Prosecutors are going to need to build the case. This is the part I want to discuss with you.
[21:20:00]
This is not a case against citizens. The standards are different. The defense arguments and the ability to justify action is also different because these are police officers. And that's not to say that they get a break. It's a different standard under the law.
Let's look at this with Joey Jackson and Charles Ramsey. I couldn't ask for better guests than this.
Now, let's start with the lesser charges against Brosnan, OK?
Joey, Brosnan's defense is going to be, "Look, I gave the guy a break. I talked to him for a while. When he made the choice to start fighting me, and started kicking my ass, I fell and whacked my head.
Next thing I knew he had my TASER. And I was like stumbling around, trying to figure out what was happening. I heard gunshots. I didn't even know who was shooting. I ducked behind the car.
Then I look up, I see the guy on the ground. I run over, make sure that he is not still a threat. As soon as I perceive that, I did start giving medical aid. In fact, everybody else showed up, and I kept giving medical aid, even in the ambulance. How am I getting charged?"
How potent is that?
JACKSON: I think it's very potent, Chris. And you lay out certainly what the case will be for the defense. And I think it's important, in speaking about this, to go back, very briefly, to what the Chief said.
This is not about demonizing police. Police serve us every day and twice on Sunday. We're grateful for that. We salute you for that. And may you continue to do it, and God bless you.
CUOMO: Amen. JACKSON: What we are looking at here is something that is potentially criminal. I say "Potentially" because there will be a trial, in the event it goes that far, and people who do things, like kill people, when it could be avoided, need to be held accountable.
So, to your point, yes, there will be the argument, as you just laid out, but there's also the adverse side of that.
And the adverse side is having an obligation to preserve life. The adverse side is that you communicated with this person, and you recognized, during that communication that, he was compliant.
"You had an obligation to tamp things down. You tried to then put him in cuffs and he did not comply with that. Thereafter, what happened was really serious, really unfortunate, a tragedy, and unlawful," will say the prosecution.
"Why? You aren't in immediate fear of anything. You weren't in immediate fear. You had his car. You were not in immediate fear. You had his license.
He fired a TASER. You know that a TASER, number one, under policy, is not a deadly weapon. Number two, you also know that if someone is running, you can't even fire your TASER at him. So, why would you fire a gun?
And, to the extent that you have him, if you are the other officer, not Rolfe, who did it, but, the other officer, why do you, then, stand on him, thereafter? Why do you then not render immediate aid thereafter? You are trained to do it. You failed in doing it. You have to pay the consequences for not doing it. Guilty."
That'll be the argument.
CUOMO: Charles, now, in policing, the man was definitely running away. Or was he?
RAMSEY: Right.
CUOMO: They will offer the argument that, "No, no, no, no, no, he was running, but he turned. And he pointed. And he fired. And we saw the TASER discharge."
And now, Joey's definition must be changed.
"The TASER in the hands of the untrained user can be a dangerous weapon, and that's why I had to switch from my TASER, to my weapon, my pistol, and fire at him, even from behind, because he wasn't really from behind. He had turned. And I was afraid he could really hurt me with that thing."
How does that stand up to training, practice, and practicality?
RAMSEY: Well, you've got two problems here.
The first is that early on, in the encounter, when Mr. Brooks first gets out of the car, he is asked if he has any weapons on him. He says "No."
Then he was asked if it would be OK if he got patted down. He complied. He was patted down. At that point, you know he doesn't have a firearm, or a knife, or other type of deadly weapon.
CUOMO: But he says the TASER.
RAMSEY: He was just going to--
CUOMO: "The TASER is the dangerous weapon."
RAMSEY: Well but everything is smooth until the wrestling. Then he grabs a TASER and he starts running.
My point is this. When he turns to fire the TASER, a TASER is a dangerous weapon, not a deadly weapon. You know how TASERs function, as a police officer, because you are trained on it.
I believe that was the second discharge of that TASER. But even if it was the first discharge, it has to recycle. The average person has no idea on how to recycle, and how to fire a TASER a second time.
Now, there is a popping sound. And what he is probably going to say is he just reflexed when he heard that pop, you know, in that instant. And remember, these things happen in a matter of seconds.
This isn't - we rewind the tape over and over and over again, and have still shots and all that. But the reality is on the street, is happening in real-time. He instinctively drew his weapon and he - and he fired.
I don't think it was a justified shooting. Don't get me wrong. But I think that there is an argument there. And I think it's going to be difficult.
You couple that with the enormous publicity this has been given, it's going to be hard to even find a jury that has not somehow been, you know, exposed to this, in a way that could prejudice them in some way.
[21:25:00]
And if you get a change of venue, that could really have a dramatic impact on the outcome of the case.
CUOMO: I think the worst fact - look, there is no question that Mr. Brooks, Rayshard, changed the dynamic here for the worse when he decided to resist.
Of course, officers have the duty of de-escalation. They're supposed to be trained. That's still my pet peeve in this situation. I think it's a window into a reality that our police officers, in general, need more training, in how to deal people - with people without using their weapons.
But when he is running away, as Joey says, you're not even supposed to use your TASER, when someone is running away. RAMSEY: Right.
CUOMO: You're supposed to use your radio, let alone a weapon. And the detail of him kicking Mr. Brooks, if a jury believes that he kicked the guy, when he was on the ground--
RAMSEY: Right.
CUOMO: --and said "I got him," it's going to change a formation of what his intent was, and what was in his mind, and that's when things will get very dangerous for this weapon, because let's be honest, the people have to be aware, it's a higher standard when it comes to police in making this case. We'll see how it goes.
Joey, Charles, I got to jump. I'm out of time. But this conversation will definitely be continued. To both of you, men I look up to, and I appreciate, and I rely on, Happy Father's Day.
Thank you, for being the kind of men, that make our children better, for you having the presence in their lives, and thank you, for being a presence in my own. God bless and be well.
RAMSEY: Same to you, Chris. Same to you, Chris.
CUOMO: The Trump Campaign, I don't know what else you can call the inverted triangle. I am in no rush to introduce more animus into our society. I swear to everything that matters to me.
But this inverted triangle is a symbol of hate. And it was put in an ad by the Campaign. And then, they have the audacity to fight with Facebook, and the ever - other platforms for silencing speech.
Why would you have anything that can be confused with a Nazi legacy on your own political material? Why? And why would Trump defend it? Next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: The Trump re-election campaign is facing backlash over an ad that was removed by Facebook for violating Facebook's policy against organized hate.
Think about that for a second. Facebook removed an ad by the Campaign for the President of the United States for violating its policy against organized hate.
Here is the ad.
It attacks the far-Left and Antifa. Nothing wrong with doing that. Good for them. But the upside-down triangle? That is a symbol that was used by Nazi Germany to mark political prisoners inside concentration camps.
Do you see it? Do you realize that it is identifiable? Do you realize that it has no other significance in our political culture other than that?
Now, the Trump Campaign is denying they were trying to make a Nazi reference. Instead, they say that that symbol is affiliated with Antifa.
Now, we've seen images of Antifa activists. I have not seen any wearing or holding anything with an inverted triangle symbol. By the way, anti-fascists are the ones who fight the Nazis, OK?
Also, the Campaign ad never identifies the symbol as associated with Antifa. So if that's why you did it, why didn't you say it? How are people supposed to know?
No matter how you feel about Mr. Trump, whether you support him or not, you have to agree that this was wrong. And the best indication that this was intentional is that the Campaign offers no apology.
Trump has criticized Facebook in the past. They don't want social media companies deciding what is or isn't appropriate to post. OK. But look at this ad again.
We can all have legitimate arguments about Facebook and the other platform providers. Facebook should have never had to make this call.
Who thinks to do this? Who thinks that this can ever be healthy in this country at this time? More division? Toxicity? A Nazi-aligned symbol? Exacerbating problems we already have.
Trump and his Campaign should know better. My fear, your fear should be that they do know what they're doing, and it's intentional.
Now, this President also has bigger problems because, in this country, we don't play that kind of dog whistle. We play with law, and we play with the Supreme Court. And that's what matters.
And in that, we have to bring in Ken Cuccinelli because he is going to answer questions for us about this big ruling from the Supreme Court today on DACA, and what is to come, next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:35:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: The message from The Highest Court in the Land, and the land of social media today, this President does not get his own rules. Let's hear the defense from someone on the inside, Acting Deputy Secretary of Homeland Security, Ken Cuccinelli.
Good to see you. It's been a minute.
KEN CUCCINELLI, ACTING DEPUTY SECRETARY, DHS: Hey, Chris.
CUOMO: So--
CUCCINELLI: Good to be with you.
CUOMO: --seems to me that when I looked at the dissent, in this case, because, you know, look, not to bury people in the weeds, but this was basically "We're not going to rule on DACA, and whether it's good policy or bad policy. You guys have to do this the right way. We feel you didn't address the right kinds of aspects you needed to. Go back and figure it out."
But then, all of the Justice, pretty much agreed on a couple of things. This isn't about Trump being - making racist comments during the Campaign. And really, the lawmakers should figure this out. And this is a political dispute. So, let's jump to that.
Do you guys have a plan on how to make good on the President's promise to protect and help DREAMers, because if you just remove the current protections, and you don't replace it with any, they're going to be lost.
CUCCINELLI: So, if you remember, Chris, almost two years ago, now, the President was negotiating with Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer to address this problem, and they pulled out of that discussion when a District Court froze the case in place, at the time, and they thought they'd bought time.
[21:40:00]
And so, they let these 640,000 folks just kind of stew in their political juices. And the President wanted to finish that discussion and that - that opportunity was gone when those two leaders from Congress walked away.
So, this has been attempted once. The President was committed to that discussion. The Supreme Court, as you noted, Chris, in part of the - part of the opinions, there were five opinions today, they said, Congress should be dealing with. This should be done via laws. President Obama himself said he didn't have the authority to do this,
over 20 times--
CUOMO: It was a stopgap.
CUCCINELLI: --before he actually went ahead and did it.
CUOMO: It was a stopgap. That's where the leadership--
CUCCINELLI: To get to legislation.
CUOMO: Yes, that's where the leadership comes in though, Ken.
CUCCINELLI: From his perspective.
CUOMO: The reason that they left it alone is because it left the protections in place, and it left the forbearance in place.
If the President wants to help them, and do it with heart, and say all the other things that I keep playing for the audience that he said, it's on him to lead. It's on him to make something happen.
He's never brought it up again. It just seems like the urgency for him was in saying that Obama was wrong, and not doing anything that's right.
CUCCINELLI: Yes. You're - Chris, you are looking the other way at the people who left the table, and you're blaming the one guy who stayed at the table. And is there another opportunity?
CUOMO: The House passed DACA protections last year.
CUCCINELLI: I heard - I heard Senator Durbin talking in--
CUOMO: Ken, we both know that, right?
CUCCINELLI: I heard Senator Durbin talking in terms of finishing this.
CUOMO: Well but who runs the Senate?
CUCCINELLI: Well you got to deal with the House and the Senate.
CUOMO: Who runs the Senate?
CUCCINELLI: You got to deal with the House and the Senate.
CUOMO: Has the Senate taken it up?
CUCCINELLI: And that's what the President was doing.
CUOMO: Has Mitch said that he's taking it up?
CUCCINELLI: For 60 votes--
CUOMO: McConnell?
CUCCINELLI: --for 60 votes, you got to talk to Chuck Schumer and Mitch McConnell so.
CUOMO: You think you're going to have to get to 60 votes on this?
CUCCINELLI: This isn't - this isn't the budget. It's legislation.
CUOMO: This is going to be about a simple majority.
CUCCINELLI: And - and Barack Obama--
CUOMO: Hold on, hold on, Ken.
CUCCINELLI: --had 60 votes and he didn't do it.
CUOMO: I know. I know he didn't. He couldn't get it done, so he had to do a stopgap measure.
And the President said he'd do better, this President, Trump. And he hasn't. Now, the House passed it. He has never said to Mitch McConnell, "Take it up." He's never said "Work out a deal." We both know that. So, what was this lawsuit about?
CUCCINELLI: Well he - he didn't tell other people to try to work out the deal, Chris. He got to the table himself. And it was Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi who tanked it, not Donald Trump.
CUOMO: No. They - but they didn't tank it because of DACA.
CUCCINELLI: And so today, you know--
CUOMO: He could have done this all by himself, Ken.
CUCCINELLI: --we get a ruling today.
CUOMO: We both know the reality.
CUCCINELLI: No, no, he could--
CUOMO: If he wanted to do DACA alone--
CUCCINELLI: No, he could not. The Supreme Court just said--
CUOMO: --he could have.
CUCCINELLI: --no. It's illegal. And the dissent said it's illegal. And oddly enough--
CUOMO: No, no, you're talking about the Executive Order.
CUCCINELLI: --the majority wouldn't address whether it was legal or not.
CUOMO: I agree. I agree with everything you just said. The Executive Order, not the way to do it. Now, they didn't really get to it. But my suspicion is that it's going to be where your head is.
What I'm saying is the President could have gone to the Democrats, and to the Republicans, and said, "Just DACA. Do DACA and I will sign it. I want to help these people. I want to get them out of the mix. They're not our problem with immigration."
CUCCINELLI: So - so, Chris - so, Chris, I hear you're changing the terms so, you know, this is--
CUOMO: No, I never changed anything. But continue.
CUCCINELLI: --part of a bigger - this is a bigger part of a - of a broader immigration challenge that has gone unmet for many years. And - and I don't think it's reasonable to just say, "Go do this one thing." Congress never just does that.
CUOMO: Why?
CUCCINELLI: So, we've got to solve--
CUOMO: That's exactly - yes but that's exactly what the President did.
CUCCINELLI: --several problems at once here.
CUOMO: The President did exactly that. He went all-in on a wall. He went all-in on one aspect of a complicated situation when he could have done anything if he wanted to. He picked that.
CUCCINELLI: No, that was not - that is not what happened. DACA was on the table. The wall was on the table. Other elements of the immigration system were on the table.
CUOMO: But he did the wall. He didn't do DACA as a stand-alone.
CUCCINELLI: And they were making progress.
CUOMO: Will he do it now, Ken? Will he say "Do DACA because"--
CUCCINELLI: Yes. I can't - I can't answer that.
CUOMO: But that's your job.
CUCCINELLI: I can't answer that. I full - what I can tell you is he'll - he'll go back to the table. He was - he was willing to do that. He said that at the time.
CUOMO: DACA alone.
CUCCINELLI: It was the other side that walked away and stayed away.
CUOMO: DACA alone.
CUCCINELLI: They walked away and stayed away.
CUOMO: I heard you the first three times.
CUCCINELLI: We're going to solve immigration problems, just as this President - just as this President has continued to do. But I'm sorry, Chris. You and I don't get to set those terms. If we're going to solve immigration problems, we are going to solve
immigration problems. The Supreme Court--
CUOMO: Will he do DACA alone?
CUCCINELLI: --the Supreme Court did - the Supreme Court did Congress' work for them by buying several years, or a year, and that's it. They just delayed. They didn't solve, and the Thomas dissent said "This Court is doing Congress' job."
CUOMO: Yes, that's right.
CUCCINELLI: That Congress isn't doing.
CUOMO: All agreed, agreed.
CUCCINELLI: The President was at the table.
CUOMO: The President walked away--
CUCCINELLI: President was at the table.
CUOMO: --also because there was more added--
CUCCINELLI: And he's willing to talk.
CUOMO: --to it than DA CA.
CUCCINELLI: And he's willing - he did not walk away, Chris. No, Sir.
CUOMO: Listen, let's do it this way.
CUCCINELLI: He was not the one who walked away.
CUOMO: Let's - let's do it this way.
CUCCINELLI: And he's willing to talk.
CUOMO: Let's do it this way. He is willing to talk. Good. Let me ask you something. Do you believe that DREAMers are Americans?
CUCCINELLI: No. They're illegal aliens.
CUOMO: And that's the problem. And that's the problem. And that's why--
CUCCINELLI: Well that's - that's - well then--
CUOMO: --you're not going to get a deal.
CUCCINELLI: --DACA stands for "Deferred Action."
CUOMO: Yes.
CUCCINELLI: DACA just stands for--
CUOMO: Yes.
CUCCINELLI: "Deferred Action."
CUOMO: Yes.
CUCCINELLI: The action deferred is deportation.
CUOMO: Yes, I know.
CUCCINELLI: You don't deport Americans.
CUOMO: And you know why they deferred it, Ken?
CUCCINELLI: Hey, I'm just being a lawyer here.
CUOMO: No, you're not being a lawyer. You're not being a lawyer.
CUCCINELLI: Yes, political leverage.
[21:45:00]
CUOMO: Because - no because equity--
CUCCINELLI: Political leverage.
CUOMO: No but--
CUCCINELLI: Barack Obama and the Democrats--
CUOMO: Hold on.
CUCCINELLI: --have been using these folks--
CUOMO: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
CUCCINELLI: --for political leverage.
CUOMO: Yes, and - and why?
CUCCINELLI: Otherwise they would have solved the problem--
CUOMO: And - and why, Ken?
CUCCINELLI: --when they had the votes.
CUOMO: Why did they use it? Because it's a question of humanity. It's not about the law. It's about humanity. And if you want to use the law--
CUCCINELLI: Using them is a question of humanity?
CUOMO: --remember this line, Professor, equity abhors a forfeiture. These people have been here their entire lives. They go to school. They have jobs. They pay taxes. They've never known any other country.
And you're going to say they're not Americans because they are American in every way, except something they had nothing to do with--
CUCCINELLI: Chris, that's why--
CUOMO: --which is how they came into the country.
CUCCINELLI: --that's why everybody is willing to come to the table. That's why the President is willing to come to the table.
CUOMO: You just called them illegal aliens.
CUCCINELLI: He said it too.
CUOMO: That's why you're not getting it done.
CUCCINELLI: But they are not - but they are - I - I did that. That was - because that's what they are. You asked me. And that's the answer to the question.
CUOMO: It's not what they are.
CUCCINELLI: The entire Court acknowledged that today.
CUOMO: They are Americans in every way.
CUCCINELLI: It is. It is.
CUOMO: They're not just some legal term that is pejorative and try to make them an "Other."
CUCCINELLI: No. They grew up in America.
CUOMO: They're just like you and me.
CUCCINELLI: They grew up in America. They grew up in America. But the whole legal issue here is that they are not, in fact, American citizens.
CUOMO: This is about politics. Like you said before--
CUCCINELLI: That's why there is this case.
CUOMO: --it's not about the law.
CUCCINELLI: Yes.
CUOMO: It's never been about the law.
CUCCINELLI: That's right.
CUOMO: It's about doing the right thing.
CUCCINELLI: That's right.
CUOMO: And if the President wants to--
CUCCINELLI: And it started-- CUOMO: --I will cover it.
CUCCINELLI: --all the way back when the--
CUOMO: I'll cover it every day.
CUCCINELLI: --Democrats had 60 votes--
CUOMO: If he comes for DACA alone, Ken.
CUCCINELLI: --and could have solved it.
CUOMO: This is what I'll say. You are welcome on here all the time. You know that. I love having you on the show.
CUCCINELLI: I appreciate that.
CUOMO: If - if they're going to do DACA, and that's what he wants to do, and that's the proposal, you come on, I'll give you 20 minutes to make your case, on what you guys want to do on DACA and why Congress should take it up.
I got to jump right now. But I wish you the best for Father's Day. And thank you to make the case. Appreciate it.
CUCCINELLI: Good to be with you, Chris.
CUOMO: God bless and be well.
Listen, here, we test. But I don't do it with animus because it gets you nowhere. But the DREAMers are Americans in every way, except a piece of paper.
And the word "Illegal alien," I know you can find it in the law, all right? But we also know what it ascribes. Lots of words have been used in the law. We've changed them over time. And this is one that needs to change as well.
Miami's Mayor tonight is, quoting him, extremely concerned about the rising Coronavirus cases in Florida, and fears that his City may be the next epicenter.
The State of Florida just shattered a record for reported cases, and we know why. They're not doing what the States that got hit hard, and made it through, did. So, what is their action plan?
One of the few officials - in fact, you'll be shocked how hard it was to get somebody. I'm going to start with that, next, because it's part of the problem.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:50:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: So, the latest projections show that Florida has, quote, all the markings of the next large epicenter of Coronavirus transmission. More than 3,000 new cases reported just today. That's the highest single-day number in this pandemic in that State.
We wanted answers, so we make phone calls. That's how we do the job.
Take a look at all the leaders who said no, or just blew us off, starting with Governor DeSantis. The only thing that he seems more nonchalant about than COVID is coming on to make his case about why he's doing what he does with COVID.
All those people won't come on, and you know what that tells you in my business? It's that people are quiet when they don't want to be held to account.
But one official did say yes, knowing how important this is, and that is Pinellas County Commissioner, Ken Welch.
Thank you very much for taking the opportunity.
KEN WELCH, PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA COMMISSIONER: Thank you for having me, Chris.
CUOMO: Why do you believe the State is struggling more recently?
WELCH: Well, we're obviously seeing a resurgence in COVID in Pinellas County, Tampa Bay, and throughout the State of Florida. It comes down to behavior. Folks are not socially distancing.
And I think it comes from the messaging, the mixed messaging we've seen from highly-elected officials, at the Federal level, and at the State level that, you know, it was mission accomplished, and it's back to business as usual, and that's absolutely not the case.
In the last eight days, Pinellas County has registered more than a 1,000 cases. 38 percent of all of our cases were registered in the last eight days. And we're down to 59 ICU units. We do have a real issue with resurgence in Florida.
CUOMO: Now, the plus and the minus.
On the plus side, to your argument, we had three young women on, the other night, from Jacksonville. And they went out to a bar there. And I asked them, "Why didn't you wear the mask? Why did you think you could go into a place like that, and it'd be OK?" Smart, educated people, OK? WELCH: Yes.
CUOMO: And they said, "Well, you know, we'd been told it was all right. And we didn't know a lot of people who'd had it. So, we figured we're just going to this one place. It's where we always go. So, we'll go."
WELCH: Sure.
CUOMO: 16 of them got sick, seven other people there.
Do you believe that the mixed messaging is what? Are you talking about from the President or, more specifically, in your State, and how so?
WELCH: Well, I mean, you've heard from the beginning that this was a hoax. That it's like the flu. That it will magically go away.
And then, recently, here in the State of Florida, you know, Governor DeSantis talked about how much better we did than other States. And I think folks hear that without knowing the science behind it, and think, "OK, we've gotten past that. It's not a real issue anymore."
And I can tell you, as we move through reopening, I've seen personally, just crowds of folks at bars, at restaurants, all over the Pinellas County, and folks that were tuned in knew two weeks or three weeks ago, over the Memorial Day weekend, that we would see this result in a couple of weeks.
What I'm concerned about is what we're going to see two weeks or three weeks down the line, when the impact of the second phase, where bars were more fully opened, restaurants, youth sports, fitness centers, were all opened up, I thinks we're going to see that coming up.
And so, we've got a storm coming, and we need to act now.
[21:55:00]
And I think one of the few tools that we have to deal with an airborne pathogen is to stop folks from inhaling infected air. That came from our Medical Director today. And one of the best ways to do that is facial coverings.
CUOMO: Wear a mask. Try to social distance. Be smart about where you go. Do the minimum you have to, in terms of moving around. It's not that complicated. But it gets complicated--
WELCH: That's right.
CUOMO: --when people mix the message.
Commissioner, I appreciate you coming on. I wish more of the officials would.
WELCH: Thanks for having me.
CUOMO: I'm not holding you responsible for that. WELCH: Thank you.
CUOMO: And you are welcome to come back, as the situation evolves, to let people know what they need to know. God bless and be well.
WELCH: I'd love to.
CUOMO: Happy Father's Day.
WELCH: Same to you, Sir. Thank you.
CUOMO: All right. We'll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: Got to expose the bad, but we got to embrace the good, my brothers and sisters.
Tonight's Ameri-CAN, Chicago Singer, Colette Hawley. Listen to this. She's been singing at Senior Centers for years. But when COVID-19 hit, she couldn't go anymore, right? So, she couldn't go in. So, she went up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(MUSIC)
(VIDEO - CHICAGO SINGER COLETTE HAWLEY SINGING IN A RENTED CHERRY PICKER THAT LIFTS HER TO SENIORS' WINDOWS)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
END
