Return to Transcripts main page
Cuomo Prime Time
Pence Defends Trump Campaign Rallies As Virus Cases Surge: "Freedom Of Speech"; Trump Administration Asks Supreme Court To Strike Down Obamacare; Colorado Police Officers Involved In Death Of Elijah McClain Placed On "Non-Enforcement Duties". Aired 9-10p ET
Aired June 26, 2020 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: Could be an honor if you'd have a look at it.
The news continues. So, I'm going to hand it over to Chris Cuomo for CUOMO PRIME TIME.
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: We will do it on the radio show I have. We will do it on PRIME TIME because your reporting warrants it. And yes, we do go back a long time, my brother. Great work, Jim.
SCIUTTO: Thank you.
CUOMO: Great to see you tonight. Have a great weekend, you and the family, God bless.
Everybody, I am Chris Cuomo and welcome to PRIME TIME.
For all the unknowns about COVID-19, we are now painfully aware of a big reason why we continue to struggle with cases. And here is the answer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE PENCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: All 50 states and territories across this country are - are opening up safely and responsibly.
We slowed the spread. We flattened the curve.
The reality is we're in a much better place.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: The reality! Wonder what color the sky, is in Pence's "Reality?"
Cases are popping up in so many places, and the twisted talk just - just came out, of his really straight face is a reason why. Too many are doing what the VP and his boss suggest. "Open fast, ready or not."
That man is the Head of the White House Coronavirus Task Force. No wonder why the response has been as weak as it has. Every actual expert on the Task Force says "If you socially distance,
wear masks, wash your hands, get tested, communities will get back to normal sooner." You keep others and yourself safe.
You actually reduce deaths by the thousands, according to the estimates the White House relies on. And yet, Trump and Co. resist it because it sends a bad message. Think about that. That kind of crazy is incurable, and it is literally making us sick.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you tell me how - why you continue to do this? Why the campaign continues to hold these rallies?
PENCE: Well the - the freedom of speech, the right to peaceably assemble, is enshrined in the Constitution of the United States.
PAULA REID, CBS NEWS WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: And in Arizona, one of the hardest hit states, you packed a church with young people who weren't wearing masks. So, how can you say that the Campaign is not part of the problem that Dr. Fauci laid out?
PENCE: Well, I want to remind you again that the freedom of speech and the right to peaceably assemble is enshrined in the Constitution of the United States.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: No freedom of speech? "Freedom of speech." No freedom of speech? Come on! Come on! This isn't about personal liberty. It's about cheap politics.
And this toxic infection of ignorance and arrogance has us in the worst shape in the world relatively. If prevaricating Pence is what the renewed COVID briefings are going to be about, we may have been better-served by the past two months of silence.
"All 50 states are opening up safely and responsibly," he said? Then why did America just have its single worst day of case spikes since this began? All 50 doing it right? Yet some, the same that in almost every case took the Trump way to reopening are shutting down again, because this emergency has never been worse.
Team Trump says the rate of new infections per test is going down. How can they say that with that straight face when it isn't true in at least 32 of our states? If we flattened the curve, why are daily new cases shooting up again?
The reality is in the numbers. We are not in a much better place than we were two months ago. And that's because Pence and pals have a mask over their eyes instead of over their mouths.
They refuse to see the obvious and they spew the odious misinformation that has so many of us getting sick. If they're being straight with you, why would Trump say something as absurd as, "You know, if you don't test, there would be no cases." No. If we don't test, there will in fact be more cases, because you
don't know what you're dealing with, you can't allocate resources, and you can't do the tracing that we're still not doing enough of.
Without testing, there's no containment. Without testing, it spreads like wildfire. Without testing, and testing enough, and testing the smartest way, you get exactly where we are, like we've been warned would happen, like we pleaded with the President to step up and avoid from happening. Now, it is happening.
Let's take on the reality with someone who speaks truth and common sense, Chief Doctor Sanjay Gupta.
[21:05:00]
An interesting point of context, Doc, from two months ago, when they stopped the briefings, to now, we've had like a 1.5 million cases. What have we seen--
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes.
CUOMO: --in that time? Give us a little comparable.
GUPTA: It's - it's hard to believe, Chris. I mean it's just hard to believe. All the things that we learned, all the things that we were starting to sort of figure out, and we completely sort of abandoned those things.
If you put up the chart, which I know you showed, April 27th, I believe, almost exactly two months ago, you see what has happened here. The numbers are not only going up, they're at the highest levels they have been throughout this pandemic.
It's as if, Chris, you know, you have a patient in front of you, who's bleeding out, and you put a little bit of pressure on the wound, and then you got bored, and took the pressure off, and kind of forgot about the patient, and the patient is starting to bleed again.
At no point did we actually start to take care of the underlying problem here. So, there's all this talk about, "Hey, you know, the numbers are going up here a little bit. They're not going up here, so here's a bright spot."
None of that matters at this point, Chris. You know why? Because we're not doing the things, we need to do, to address the fundamental problem. There is a virus. It is circulating. It is contagious. It is causing the problems that we see.
And people will say "Well how come it's not causing as big a problem over here?" I don't know. It doesn't matter. The virus hasn't changed. So, if you're not doing something to solve the problem over here, eventually you're going to have a problem.
You remember they were - you know, Governor DeSantis went up to Washington, spent time in the Oval Office, talking about the fact that Florida, you know, they escaped it, they dodged the bullet. How long ago was that, a few weeks ago?
CUOMO: Yes.
GUPTA: Couple of - I can't even - six weeks, whatever it was. And now we see what's happening in Florida. My parents live in Florida.
You know, 80 percent to 90 percent, in some places, the ICU beds are full right now. See what these numbers are on Monday, three days from now. See what happens. The numbers are going to be much higher. I guarantee you.
CUOMO: Actually you won't know.
GUPTA: We're going to have--
CUOMO: You won't know, Sanjay. And you know why?
GUPTA: We won't even know.
CUOMO: Because they're fighting in Florida, the Health Department with the Governor, because he doesn't want them to report how many beds are filled. He just wants to deal with patients.
Now help us understand something. Why would he want to draw that distinction? How does that help him?
GUPTA: I don't know anymore, Chris. I've been trying to figure out, and trying - and I find what I - what I end up doing is trying to justify some of these things. There is no rational explanation for this.
The fact of the matter is that the virus is causing significant amounts of illness. If it were just testing that were leading to an increased number of people being infected, you wouldn't have this significant surge in hospitalizations. That's fundamental, right?
I was talking to my 12-year-old today about that. She got it right away. She fundamentally understood it.
I think people get that, right? This isn't just about the testing. We are going to run into a situation, I remember, you and I talking, when this was happening in Northern Italy, and I have friends over there.
And they were saying, they would call the hospital, they would call and they would say, "Hey, you know, my - my husband, my wife is having difficulty breathing. They're developing shortness of breath. I'm worried. I need to get them to the hospital."
And the hospital would say "We can't send an ambulance. We have no beds in the hospital right now." Can you imagine that, Chris?
I mean I don't know what gets through at this point. We've got to stop the bleeding here, and then we got to take care of the fundamental problem. It is still within our - within our power. I think if it's not the policies in these places. It's got to be the
people because this is the time to rise to the occasion, and actually do some fundamental things that frankly aren't that hard.
This virus isn't that hardy. It doesn't like to actually live outside and can't jump that far.
If you wear a mask, you keep some distance, you can actually start to get control of this thing. They have done it in countries around the world, so we have real-time data and examples of success stories. We're not making this up. It can be done.
And I'm - you know, I'm worried, Chris. You haven't heard me talk like this. But I'm concerned right now because it feels like we've given up at this point.
CUOMO: Well, people get fatigue, especially when the leaders at the top, are telling them take it easy. Look, that's what we saw in Florida.
We had those young women from Jacksonville. The Governor is saying to them, you know, "Don't worry about the mask. You can go out." They go out to a bar. All 16 of them get sick. Now, they feel terribly about it.
We just checked in with them. They're getting better now. But they wanted to come on national television.
GUPTA: Good.
CUOMO: You know, it's an embarrassing to come on about, but they wanted to, because they don't want people to be like them.
The urgency of regular people is going to have to replace the urgency from the leadership because you're not seeing it in a lot of places.
GUPTA: Yes. And I think that that may be the bright spot here, maybe because I, you know, I do talk to a lot of people. I'm on the phone all the time with people all over the country. And I think people do fundamentally understand this.
I hope that most people realize that if they wear a mask, we could save tens of thousands of lives. Tens of thousands of lives could be saved by the simple act that you did, just putting on that mask like that.
CUOMO: It's incredible how that detail--
GUPTA: Why - why--
CUOMO: --keeps floating past un - it's just unobserved by so many in politics. "Yes, thousands could be saved, maybe, maybe not. It's just an estimate."
[21:10:00]
Let me ask you, what are you hearing from inside the Task Force?
GUPTA: You know, there seems to be a little bit of concern and maybe even a little bit of friction within the Task Force.
The testing has been an issue all along, right? We know that in the beginning, the CDC came up with this test. It wasn't a good test. The control part of the test didn't work well, so you couldn't get accurate results. That's been well-documented.
Here we are, end of June. Why don't we have the more widespread available testing? And I'm not talking about, "Hey, we're doing 500,000 tests now."
I'm talking about "Chris, you want to go do something? You want to go do something with your family? Could you get tested? Could you get a reliable result and know that you're negative?"
You're a different story because you've obviously had it. And you have the antibodies now. But I'm talking for the average person. They still don't know how to make decisions about their life, right?
Two months ago, Ambassador Birx said, "We need a breakthrough in testing, so that people can actually return to some sort of normalcy, get back to work, take a road trip with their family, whatever, all these things that you want to do in the summer."
Right now, people are confused. "Can I? Can't I? What's the risk? Does that person have the virus? I don't know. Do I have the virus? I don't know."
How are we so many months into this and with all the resources that - that should have been tossed at this problem, how do we still not figure out how to do testing in a way that is meaningful to people?
CUOMO: There's still a freaky disconnect.
GUPTA: They talk about this antigen testing.
CUOMO: Because I'm sure you're getting it all the time as well, much more than I am. But I'm telling you, on an other - not daily anymore, every other day basis, someone says to me, "Hey, you know, do you know where I can get tested?"
GUPTA: Yes.
CUOMO: Or "Hey, do you know where I can get an antibody test?" Or, you know, "I really want to see if my kids had it." Or, you know, "I had this really bad thing last year, during the holidays, and I wonder if I have any antibodies."
And they call their doctors, and they got to wait. "We don't have them. You can go to this drive-in testing center if you want. You got to wait five days, six days," maybe they forget about you and you don't get your results.
And people wonder why America is still getting so beat up by something that's been moving from country to country everywhere else in the world, and we're still suck in the - stuck in the suck.
GUPTA: We - that's the friction right there, I think.
People are still, even within the Task Force, sort of looking at the CDC, and saying, "Hey, you know, what gives here? Why don't we have better testing? Why haven't we, really addressed this, in a way that's meaningful to people?"
And Chris, I mean, you - you went through this. I mean you - you had to get tested. By the way, how are you?
CUOMO: I'm still going through it.
GUPTA: How are you feeling now?
CUOMO: I can't wait for your documentary.
GUPTA: Are you--
CUOMO: A year and a half from now, Lord willing I'm alive, where you say, "And it turns out"--
GUPTA: You bet.
CUOMO: --"that there are all these residual problems with this in the lungs, and people had this kind of olfactory issue, and people had brain fog, for many months, and we had to do peptide treatment."
Because I'm telling you, I hear from people all over this country. What a blessing the virus has been for me, on that level, the kinds of connections I have with people.
You know, nothing bonds you through, you know, like illness and pain, right, where they're still feeling things. Guys are like "Oh," or women, you know, "I'm a marathon runner. I still can't get my mileage up," three months later.
GUPTA: Right.
CUOMO: Cases like mine, not the worst, not ventilators and stuff like that. But, I'm telling you, there's so much to learn, and yet, we're ignoring what we already know, Doc.
GUPTA: I don't think we have the luxury of even thinking about that right now. I feel for you, Chris.
But, you know, we measure things, right now, in people who have lived and people who have died. We haven't even had the luxury to really look at recovery, and trying to improve the lives of people, after this disease, because we're just still trying to catch up.
We're behind the curve here. I hope we catch up. But, you know, I'm worried. I hope you continue to improve, Chris.
But I'm worried about the country overall, in terms of not taking this seriously enough, because if we get too far behind the curve, this goes from something that's an unmitigated disaster to something that becomes an uncontrollable disaster. And I don't want that. Nobody wants that.
CUOMO: The terrible news is that it's shaping up right now that there won't be a second wave because we won't be done with the first one.
Sanjay Gupta.
GUPTA: I know.
CUOMO: You are a light in the darkness, brother. Keep doing what you do. Have a great weekend.
GUPTA: Thank you.
CUOMO: I love you.
GUPTA: You too. I love you too.
CUOMO: All right, so let's talk politics. The politicians are in control. You got to do what's right for you. You got to do what's right for your family and your community. We're not getting the help that we needed.
But there are voices of accountability. A Republican Member of Congress in one of the states that's falling backwards, a Doctor, what does he think about what's coming out of the White House right snow?
More importantly, what does he think about what's happening in his home State of Texas? Better than we were two months ago? Couldn't be farther from reality, next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:15:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: All right, Texas is now hitting the brakes on reopening.
Yet, folks like Texas Congressman, Louie Gohmert, just today, told CNN, if he gets Coronavirus, then he'll start wearing a mask. God forbid he gets Coronavirus, and it's good that if he gets it that he wears a mask, but he's going to have to quarantine if he gets it.
Remember, this is where the Lieutenant Governor said there are more important things than living. That's this State.
The challenge is how you get past nonsense that becomes this just virus of its own ugly politics. Cases are almost double in Texas, OK? Hospital beds are filling fast. This is not good.
Congressman Michael Burgess is a Republican from the State, also a doctor, always welcome on PRIME TIME. First things first, Congressman, Doctor, always good to see you. I hope--
REP. MICHAEL BURGESS (R-TX): Same way.
CUOMO: --you and the family are healthy.
BURGESS: Well I'm back in Texas now. It was a long day. And I'm glad to be home. It's always great to get back.
CUOMO: And everybody's OK in the family?
BURGESS: Oh, yes, yes. Probably all better than we deserve.
CUOMO: You know, you and I, you know, we'll test different ideas. And, you know, I don't like the politics of this. You tell me I'm getting it wrong. We go back and forth.
It's not the case here. I am just worried. "There but for the grace," right now, should not be our standard, in terms of avoiding this virus.
By all accounts, Abbott went out early and still doesn't want people to have to wear masks. He won't even let municipalities recommend that people are required that they wear masks, except in commercial settings.
BURGESS: I don't know that that's - I don't know that's--
CUOMO: Why not - why not mandate it everywhere, Doc?
[21:20:00]
BURGESS: I don't know that's entirely accurate. I think because I saw in the news, coming home today, the Tarrant County, which is one of the two counties that I represent has, in fact, instituted a mask order, so it's--
CUOMO: Only for commercial settings, Doctor.
BURGESS: --it's a lot. Well there's a lot of--
CUOMO: The fact that--
BURGESS: There's a lot of local - there's a lot of local variation. Texas was a big State in a big country--
CUOMO: They don't have the power. They don't have the power, Congressman, just so we're clear on the facts, and then I want your take. BURGESS: And--
CUOMO: They weren't allowed to do anything. Now the Governor allows them--
BURGESS: Not so--
CUOMO: --county by county to do commercial restriction on people in commercial settings, but not everywhere. That's the fact.
BURGESS: Look, as far as I'm concerned, you know, the most important thing we can do to protect ourselves from this virus is social distancing. And I do that. If I cannot social distance, I wear a mask, because it makes sense.
And whatever the politics are, the politics are, but that is how I've chosen to live my life. And I said, early on in this, people are going to figure a lot of this out for themselves.
When we were in an absolute lockdown, shutdown, "Nobody go anywhere, everyone stay at home," and yes you'd have to make trips up to the local Walmart, it was packed. Of course, nobody was wearing a mask back then because we were told that masking was not a good idea.
But I think people got the notion that "Look, I can get out, and be in this situation, and nothing bad happens to me." So that's, you know, where you start to build the body of knowledge.
But back to Governor Abbott, and to Texas, look, when he announced that we were going to begin a phased opening, in the State, he also said that he was going to be closely monitoring the things like the percent positive, the number of beds that were in use, the number of ICU beds that were available.
He was monitoring. Situation changed, and he dialed back the phased reopening. He did exactly what he said he was going to do. I don't know what else you would ask of him.
CUOMO: I would have asked him to have gone slower, and waited longer, and mandated the distancing, and mandated masks, and he wouldn't be looking the way his State is right now. He'd be looking more like a New Jersey or a Connecticut or a New York.
BURGESS: I don't know how you mandate distancing. I mean that's something each of us has to kind of govern for ourselves. I mean I can't tell someone not to come close to me.
CUOMO: Yes. But - but look, just because you can't enforce it, Congressman, doesn't mean you don't do it.
BURGESS: No. I mean it's--
CUOMO: We make people wear helmets on motorcycles. We make them wear seatbelts in cars, right?
BURGESS: And well-- CUOMO: And that's where you only hurt yourself. Here, with the mask, and the distancing--
BURGESS: Motorcycle helmets--
CUOMO: --you hurt others. Come on!
BURGESS: Motorcycle helmets are optional.
But, look, the State of Texas also recognized that there were some serious problems that we were encountering during the shutdown phase. And I don't think Texas is any different for any other part of the country.
CUOMO: Well--
BURGESS: Serious economic repercussions.
CUOMO: Right. But it's different now because it's got cases popping.
BURGESS: We damaged our hospitals--
CUOMO: And it's going to have to slow down its reopening.
BURGESS: No.
CUOMO: And that's going to hurt the economy too.
BURGESS: We - we damaged our hospitals by preventing any elective procedures. We killed medical practices. We've got - medical personnel have been laid off because hospitals, medical practices can't--
CUOMO: And look - and that - and look, and that is terrible.
BURGESS: --actually practice--
CUOMO: Congressman, it's terrible. Nobody should say anything but that.
The idea of reopen or not was always a false choice. We must reopen. The question was always how. And one of the things that helps us do it more intelligently would be more and proper testing. You fought for that in Congress.
BURGESS: Sure.
CUOMO: You've got a President in your Party who's against testing.
BURGESS: Sure, we did.
CUOMO: But you did get a bill for to get more funding.
BURGESS: No one's against testing.
CUOMO: Only two weeks, but that's something.
BURGESS: He's - he signed the bills to increase the amount of testing.
CUOMO: For two weeks.
BURGESS: And look, we had the hearing - we finally had a hearing in Energy and Commerce this week, where we had the principals in public health.
Up and down the line, Dr. Fauci, Dr. Redfield, Dr. Hahn from the CDC, Dr. Giroir from the HHS, "Has the White House told you to reduce testing?" "No," "No," "No," "No," "No," down the line. So, I mean that's--
CUOMO: Yes. Right, Congressman I'm not saying--
BURGESS: --that's also not accurate - that's not an accurate description, Chris.
CUOMO: We're not going to have a debate tonight about whether or not the President was lying. I'll take you at your word. He was lying when he said he told them to back off on the testing, but the mere idea that he pushes that as a message, Congressman.
BURGESS: Well it's hyperbole but it's--
CUOMO: Hyperbole during a pandemic?
BURGESS: Look, and we already know that--
CUOMO: Would you say it?
BURGESS: Look, I said early on, "Take this darn thing seriously."
CUOMO: All right, that's what I'm saying.
BURGESS: Whether it's--
CUOMO: That's leadership.
BURGESS: Whether it's - Chinese government shut down a major City in their country, a City of 10 million people that I've never heard of before? I told everyone around to me--
CUOMO: Right.
BURGESS: --"Listen, you better take this serious. This is a"--
CUOMO: And the President said it was a hoax.
BURGESS: No, he didn't.
CUOMO: And the President said it would disappear.
BURGESS: No, he did not.
CUOMO: What?
BURGESS: The President - listen to me. The President - listen to me.
Look, the previous Administration, when I was worried about Ebola, and it showed up in my backyard, when I was worried about Zika, and it showed up in my State, I never could get a travel restriction out of the White House or the State Department or CDC. This President did.
CUOMO: He says--
BURGESS: And he did it early on.
CUOMO: --the only reason we have cases is because we're testing. "If you don't test, you wouldn't have cases."
BURGESS: Oh, he did not. He didn't say that.
CUOMO: He won't wear a mask.
BURGESS: I don't think--
[21:25:00]
CUOMO: He keeps reinforcing the message that people don't need to wear masks. Come on, Doc. As a physician, you cannot--
BURGESS: No. No, I--
CUOMO: --you wouldn't say any of the things he's saying. You wouldn't say any of them.
BURGESS: I don't think anyone is prohibiting anyone from wearing a mask. And it is a good idea, if you're not able to socially distance, put on a mask. Look, I want - I want the economy of this country back. I want it back so badly because I see how badly people have been hurt.
CUOMO: But you - but you extend the pain--
BURGESS: If wearing a mask is - is, what's the requirement, to get us back to normal--
CUOMO: --by extending the pandemic, Congressman.
BURGESS: The well--
CUOMO: The reason you fought for more money for--
BURGESS: If wearing a mask is what's--
CUOMO: Congressman, the reason you fought for more money for testing, and rightly so, and soldiered through a toxic political environment, to get it done is because the more testing you get, that's targeted to the areas where you need it, the faster you'll get through this.
And that's how you get back to opening places up, in an economy. You fight the pandemic. You don't ignore the pandemic.
BURGESS: No one is ignoring it, for crying out loud, because we're doing more tests today in this country, I don't know that I've ever seen a level of testing. I do not know level of testing.
CUOMO: We've never needed a level of testing like this.
BURGESS: And no - well yes, we did. When we had Ebola, we did. When we had Zika, we did.
CUOMO: Not like this.
BURGESS: We didn't have the testing.
CUOMO: We didn't have anywhere--
BURGESS: When--
CUOMO: --near the caseload or the deaths.
BURGESS: When--
CUOMO: Come on, Doc.
BURGESS: Oh, look, when - well, look, when Ebola went up, when that lady got on the plane, that nurse got on the plane--
CUOMO: Yes.
BURGESS: --and she was told by the CDC she could, I mean, I promise you, I fielded phone calls about Ebola tests--
CUOMO: Yes. I know.
BURGESS: --for the next weeks.
CUOMO: But you didn't have the death or the cases that we have. I'm glad that you guys were afraid.
BURGESS: Wait. What we didn't - we didn't know, at the time, what - what the future held.
Regardless, Chris, we want the country to get back. We want the economy to get back. We want people to get back to work. We want people to get their lives back. If wearing a mask is one of the things that's going to hasten that day, look, I'm all for it. The--
CUOMO: What do you mean "If?" What do you mean "If," Doctor? Who's told you that masks aren't a part of it?
BURGESS: Well look, if you can socially distance, then a mask becomes superfluous. I mean if I can socially--
CUOMO: Right. But in a lot of places, you can't do that, right?
BURGESS: --if I can - if I can't socially distance, I'd wear a mask.
CUOMO: Which is why, your cases are jumping.
BURGESS: If I can't socially distance, I'd wear a mask. Look, Chris, this - every one of us has been humbled, trying to predict the biologic behavior of this virus, from the beginning.
Dr. Fauci, witness on the panel yesterday, he was challenged. "You early on said we didn't need to wear a mask." He said "Well I was worried about the masks being tied up and not available for frontline healthcare personnel," very reasonable position for him to have taken.
Now, the feeling is, you should - you should wear a mask, if you can't socially distance. Good advice. Everyone should take that.
CUOMO: The President doesn't think it's good advice.
BURGESS: People should figure out for themselves. It shouldn't require - it shouldn't require me telling someone that you're mandated to do that.
CUOMO: But--
BURGESS: It is a good idea.
CUOMO: But if it's a good idea then why is it a--
BURGESS: But if you can't socially distance--
CUOMO: --good idea for the President to say wearing a mask is an insult to him.
BURGESS: I don't know that he - I never heard him say that. I don't know where you got that. It - look, this --- the biologic behavior of this virus was unknown, as we got into this.
Hey, I'm a Medical Doctor. I will tell you that several times I've been humbled by what I thought would happen. I knew a travel restriction would be a good idea. I didn't realize that Europe was also one of those areas where a travel restriction was necessary.
When the President announced that, the middle of March, he was criticized, for treating our allies that way. But it turns out he actually was probably a little late in that declaration.
I was the first one to raise the alarm about ventilators the middle of March in one of our Rules Committee hearings.
CUOMO: Congressman, I am not blaming you for being slow on this or for not recognizing the virus. I'm just saying leadership comes from the top. And if we don't start getting--
BURGESS: Yes.
CUOMO: --better consistent messaging, we're going to see more Texas' in this country.
BURGESS: No. Wait a minute.
CUOMO: And we don't need it.
BURGESS: Now look, wait, wait, no - look, let's - let's put things in perspective. In Texas' - Texas has our problems. The cases will be going up.
Community spread in the Lower Rio Grande Valley right now is a real concern, a real concern of mine. That's different. It used to be the congregate living facilities. You'd have the hotspots like you had in New York.
It's not like that in the Lower Rio Grande Valley. It's - it's sort of evenly distributed amongst families, and that's a real worry, as we get into the summer. If it then goes into the nursing homes, that's an even - that's an even bigger problem.
CUOMO: I know. I'm just saying you got a second week of record hospitalizations, just to take testing out of the equation, because hospitalizations are--
BURGESS: Yes but hospitalizations--
CUOMO: --what they are.
BURGESS: Texas has had 2,200 deaths from this illness. New York had 24,000.
CUOMO: Yes.
BURGESS: I mean it is a different order of magnitude.
CUOMO: It's a different order of magnitude because you had--
BURGESS: We ultimately--
CUOMO: --different set of challenges than the states--
BURGESS: The Governor of Texas--
CUOMO: --had up in the Northeast.
BURGESS: The Governor of Texas, I think, has approached this. I couldn't have asked him to do much differently. And he began to open at a time when I don't think there was any question we had to open.
And here's the other thing, Chris. You can only keep people bottled up for so long. We're going to lose the consent of the governed if we're not careful here than this--
[21:30:00]
CUOMO: You're going to - you're going to lose them if they keep - you're going to lose them a lot faster if they keep getting sick, Congressman.
But I hear you, and I know it's a balance, and I appreciate you coming on to discuss it, as always. And I really do hope you and the family stay healthy, and I hope things turn around in Texas, and soon. I really do.
BURGESS: OK. Thanks for having me on. We'll do it again sometime. I enjoy sparring.
CUOMO: God bless. You're always welcome on this show.
BURGESS: All right, thanks, Chris.
CUOMO: Take care, Congressman Michael Burgess.
The President said he asked to slow down testing. He did, OK? I know he didn't do it. But the fact that he's lying doesn't make the suggestion OK, OK?
Now, he is trying to reduce access to healthcare for Americans, during the pandemic. His Administration is going even further, in court, on the healthcare front. You're not hearing about it. But you will, next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: So, you have to hear this. Late last night, the Justice Department asked the Supreme Court to invalidate the Affordable Care Act.
[21:35:00]
It's a nonsensical appeal for this Administration, considering nearly half a million people turned to the Obamacare exchanges after they lost coverage through their employers this year.
They're doing this during the pandemic? 23 million people could lose their care, at least. Overall, enrollment jumped 46 percent in the first five months of 2020 year-over-year.
Four months out from the election, it is obvious. For this Administration, it is about politics over people.
But here, we do the opposite. Elijah McClain, his family is getting the investigation they have been seeking for nearly a year, after the 23-year-old died after being restrained by police in Colorado in 2019.
We have the McClain Family Attorney, and new developments regarding three of the officers involved in that arrest, next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME. (END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: All right, here's the latest information on the Elijah McClain case. The three officers, in Colorado, involved in his death were moved to "Non-enforcement duties" earlier this month.
[21:40:00]
Yes, when this originally happened, they were put on administrative duty. But after there were no charges, they were all reactivated. This was done now amid growing calls for another investigation into McClain's death, which the Governor reopened just yesterday.
The 23-year-old died last August after he was stopped by three White officers, responding to a 911 call, about a suspicious person in a ski mask. His family says he routinely wore the mask because of a blood condition.
Regardless, he was unarmed. He was walking home. He wasn't running. He wasn't involved in any criminality. He had just bought an iced tea from a convenience store.
The District Attorney told me, last night, why he didn't pursue charges.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVE YOUNG, COLORADO'S 17TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT ATTORNEY: And the criminal charges I'm looking at are homicide.
We've got several different theories of homicide here in Colorado. But, in each and every one of those theories of homicide, I must prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that those officers caused the death of Elijah McClain.
And you should know, if you don't know already, that the forensic autopsy report cannot determine the cause of death of Mr. McClain.
CUOMO: Right.
YOUNG: So, how in the world can I file homicide charges when I can't prove that critical element, beyond a reasonable doubt, the cause of death?
CUOMO: So, you're saying if a pathologist doesn't give you a home run, you never go forward with a case?
YOUNG: And - and, by the way, there was no injuries to him whatsoever. CUOMO: He is dead.
YOUNG: No serious bodily injury.
CUOMO: He's dead.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: Mari Newman is the McClain Family Attorney.
Counselor, thank you for joining us tonight. What is your reaction to the District Attorney's analysis of the case?
MARI NEWMAN, ELIJAH MCCLAIN FAMILY ATTORNEY: Chris, thanks for having me.
It's absolutely preposterous. As you heard him say, there were no injuries. Well, of course there were injuries. A perfectly healthy 23- year-old young man is dead. So, claiming that there's no injury is ridiculous.
And the autopsy report is very strange. I mean it ignores the most obvious factor, which is a perfectly healthy young man is walking home from the drugstore, with a - with a bottle of iced tea, in a little bag, and he ends up dead.
Now, that is because those officers stopped him, tackled him, applied two carotid chokeholds, multiple types of force, over the course of 15 minutes, during which he's begging, he's pleading.
He's saying, "I'm a peaceful person. I'm a vegetarian. I don't eat meat. I don't even kill flies. I don't have a gun. I don't fight. My name is Elijah McClain," and, of course, the one we've heard so often, "I can't breathe."
What we see is officers standing over him, one, as he's vomiting, saying "Don't get that on me." And another one who apparently doesn't believe Elijah is laying there still enough, and threatens to sic a dog on him.
I mean, for the District Attorney to determine that everything that happened was totally appropriate, and he can't determine the cause of death, when this young man winds up dead, is ridiculous.
CUOMO: Well, the District Attorney says "I don't like the way they did their job. I think it was wrong. But that doesn't make it criminal."
But let's take two steps back. They get a 911 call of someone suspicious with a mask. They come. They investigate. They see someone with a ski mask, weird thing to see at that time of year.
But I was going back and forth with the D.A. was, was it reasonable, were they justified, by reasonably contacting Elijah McClain, the way they did, in your opinion?
NEWMAN: Your question is exactly right. They did not have reasonable suspicion to believe that he committed a
crime. And why didn't they? Because the 911 caller said he's acting strange, wearing a ski mask, and waving his arms. He was listening to music in his earbuds.
But he wasn't in - he wasn't involved in any crime. And, in fact, the 911 caller said, "I don't believe he's committed any crime. I don't think he's got a weapon. No, I'm not in danger and nobody else was in danger."
And so, based on all of the information that those officers had, they didn't have reasonable suspicion to believe he committed a crime, and therefore, they didn't have a justification to even stop him.
CUOMO: Mari, something else that I think is very important here.
I made an alternative argument to the District Attorney that couldn't they have just as reasonably believed, upon contacting, meaning observing Elijah, that maybe there is something going on with him, but it's not criminality.
And when you listen to what he said, "I'm being censored. I'm being censored," and how he thrust his hands, across his body, and kind of froze up, that even the officers had to say, "Come on, man, calm down, release yourself, release yourself," what do we need to know about Elijah McClain that would have made it just as reasonable to say, "You know what? Let's watch him. This guy is a little strange. You know, maybe he's not well or maybe he's just eccentric. But let's just watch him for a while because he doesn't look criminal. He just maybe seems a little off."
What do we need to understand about Elijah McClain?
[21:45:00]
NEWMAN: Well, I think the very first thing that we need to understand is that when police encounter somebody, who's just acting a little bit strange, there is no justification to stop them, and certainly not to put - to lay hands on them and grab them.
So, when Elijah McClain immediately reacts to the officers, by saying, "I'm an introvert. Please respect my boundaries," the officers are obliged to do that. They had no legal justification to grab him.
When he then says a variety of other things that do show he's a little bit different, he dances to the beat of his own drum, that's not criminal. Walking home from the corner store with some iced tea that he just bought, well that's not criminal.
Wearing his black skin, well that's not criminal either. Wearing a mask, well we all do that these days.
It's no surprise a lot of Black men were frightened when they were told, in these COVID days, they were supposed to wear masks, I mean that's - that seems to be a death sentence in this country.
CUOMO: No diagnosis of any type of disorder or illness?
NEWMAN: That's correct. And, in fact, he was a perfectly healthy young man. He used to go running.
The autopsy report, though, goes out of its way to come up with all kinds of creative scenarios. "Maybe he had an undiagnosed mental health issue. Maybe it was this, maybe it was that."
But the actual truth is so clear. If he had just been allowed to walk home, he would have been fine.
CUOMO: Understood. Mari Newman, let's continue the conversation. Let's see what the investigation yields.
It would have been good if the family, at that time, had had an alternative pathologist look at it. That didn't happen. We got to move forward from now. Counselor, thank you very much. You're always welcome back on the show.
NEWMAN: Thank you for having me.
CUOMO: Absolutely. And please send our condolences to the family.
And just for the rest of you, suggesting that maybe it was mental illness is not a way of disparaging Elijah McClain. You can be nice, want to go home, and have a mental illness. It's not an insult.
I was offering an alternative theory of what officers could have reasonably perceived, and not treated him as a criminal, and not be physical.
We've got to go away from this stigma that if there's something that is of mental illness it means something's wrong with somebody that they're bad. Let's get away from that. Look what it resulted in this situation. They could have handled it differently, period.
Now, since the wave of protests swept the nation, we now have our clearest look at where voters in swing states are, in this presidential race.
The Wiz, The Wizard of Odds, next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:50:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: Polls, we all know they're just a suggestion of where you are in a moment in time. Anything can change, especially in four months. Right now, President is trailing Joe Biden bigly in some of the states that matter most.
That's why the President has been eager to hit the campaign trail in the height of a pandemic, and have rallies, when you are exactly not supposed to do that. In Texas, Oklahoma, and Arizona, everywhere that you see cases popping. Wisconsin, Maine also.
He only has a comfortable lead in one of those states. But how much stock should we put in these numbers?
Wiz of Odds, Harry Enten, thank God you've been well. What do you see?
HARRY ENTEN, CNN POLITICS SENIOR WRITER & ANALYST: Shalom, my friend.
Look, I think the fact is he's going to Texas. He's going to Texas. This is a State a Democrat hasn't won since 1976. Look at the polling in Texas right now, which you see is that Joe Biden, in a recent Fox News poll, up by a point there.
Take a look at Georgia, a State that hasn't gone Democratic since 1992, Biden up by two. Ohio, a State that the President won easily last time, Biden up by two.
And then take a look at these. The six closest swing states in 2016 conducted polls, New York Times, what do we see? We see that Joe Biden leads in every single one of them by six points or more. And in the case of the Great Lake battleground states, we see Joe Biden leading by double-digits in all those battleground states.
CUOMO: Counterpoint. The President has botched two of the worse situations that we've seen in a generation. The pandemic and that he's been silent on the calls for equality in this society, and he's still close.
ENTEN: Still close? What are you talking about my dear friend? Take a look at this electoral map, OK?
If all of the states went the way, the polling averages are right now, Joe Biden would win 368 electoral votes. That's more than Barack Obama won in 2008, when he blew out John McCain, would be the largest win in the Electoral College, dating back since 1996 when Bill Clinton, I believe, got 379.
So, right now, what we see is Joe Biden is so far out and ahead if the election were held today. But, of course, it's not being held today.
CUOMO: Right. Hillary Clinton, I remember you talking a lot of the same yap.
I remember that New York Times having a 99 percent chance she wins. And then, as David Gregory and I watched, going through mounds of Chinese food, the needle started to go the other way. Why will this time be any different?
ENTEN: Well, first off, I'll say it wasn't The New York Times that had 99 percent. I believe they were 85 percent, where I was working at The Times FiveThirtyEight, was closer to 70 percent. But I think here's the key for you, my friend--
CUOMO: 99 percent chance it was, at one point that she would win.
ENTEN: Well it wasn't on Election Day. But here's, I think, the key thing.
Take a look at where incumbents were polling at this point, dating back since 1972. Right now, Donald Trump in the National Average of polls is at 41 percent. Every single incumbent, since 1972, who was at 42 percent, or lower, lost. You have to be in the upper 40s or into the 50s in order to win.
Maybe this time will be different. But the fact that Trump is only in the low 40s, at this point, to me, is a very dangerous sign for him, even this early on.
CUOMO: The key is always turnout, and for the Left, the Democrats, but now really the Left, ideologically, will they all go to vote on the binary choice of Trump up or down? We'll have to see.
Wiz, great to see you. I love you. I miss you. Be well.
ENTEN: Shalom. Good Shabbos, my dear friend.
CUOMO: Thank you. He makes me happy.
All right, let's take a quick break.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: Some pintsized Americans are doing giant things. Boy oh boy, is this is a great story. I want you to hear about this.
Kids near Minneapolis decided to sell Friendship bracelets to support local Black-owned businesses and food banks in the City, where obviously there have been so much heartache. Guess how much they raised so far? $90,000 online, and selling the bracelets for their fundraising. Beautiful! Beautiful! God bless them.
And then, 7-year-old Bryan Rumfelt from New York, he loves story time. And he says other kids, they should be able to enjoy story time, and they can't right now. So, with his grandma, he created what you see here, Bryan's Book Corner, online videos, so other kids can see Bryan reading to them.
You see? Don't forget, we can be this too. Ameri-CAN is in all of us.
Thank you for watching tonight. I hope you have a beautiful weekend. You make good memories with one another.
And you remember, if you believe in one another, and if you do the right thing for yourself, and your community, things will get better in this country. You don't need help from above. It's within us.
CNN TONIGHT begins right now with the upgrade, Laura Coates.
