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Cuomo Prime Time
Dr. Fauci: Need To Respond As A Nation, "In This Together"; South Dakota Governor: There "Won't Be Social Distancing" At Trump's Mount Rushmore Fireworks Event; St. Louis Homeowner On Armed Confrontation With Protesters Seen Around The World. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired June 30, 2020 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: -She's going to need round-the-clock care when he does - when she does go home. Her family set up a GoFundMe page. You see the info there on the - on the screen.
We wish Sylvia and her entire family the best in the weeks and months and years ahead.
The news continues right now. Want to hand it over to Chris for CUOMO PRIME TIME. Chris?
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST, CUOMO PRIME TIME: Esther, a great name, a huge, a towering figure in the Bible, who gives us - gives the Jews the holiday of Purim. She was a fighter. She fought for her people and she will fight for herself now. Great story! Thank you, my friend. All right, Anderson.
I am Chris Cuomo. Welcome to PRIME TIME.
A 127,000 dead. The Task Force says we could be heading to 100,000 cases a day. Now, that's the bad news. What's the good news? There is a chance. And the key is the same as it's always been, my brothers and sisters, we must be together as ever as one.
You, me and a perversely self-interested President makes three. Will tonight be the night that Trump finally tells people to socially distance and wear a mask? We'll see.
Plus, you've likely seen this video, husband and wife taking up arms, after protesters showed up if front of their house. What were they afraid of? Is this the portrait of where America is right now?
Others talk about this. I say, let's talk to the people in it. We have the husband who held that long rifle, as his wife aimed a handgun at the crowd.
What do you say? Let's get after it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: Fact or Fauci versus fiction. That's where we are tonight. Here's Dr. Fauci.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: One of the things that I would like to see, is an appreciation, on the part of our entire nation, of the importance of responding as a nation, as a whole, and not have a situation, where when you have a challenge, such as we have right now, we have very disparate responses. We've got to do it in a coordinated way because we are all in this together.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: One, that tells you we have no coordinated national response a 100-plus days into this. Think about that. Six months ago is when we learned about this. Fauci is on the Task Force, says still don't have a national response.
Think about that, and then put it in contrast to the President, who is clearly, forget about together, he is only in it for himself, and the Trumpets blowing his tune of avoidance, like this guy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL): We're not - we're not going back, closing things. I don't think that that really is - is what's driving it. I mean people going to business is not - not what's driving it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: Really? Here's what's going open.
"Captain, there is a storm ahead." "Our course is set. I don't think it's a problem." "Captain, we're taking on water. The pumps aren't working." "Course is set. My boss says the storm is going to go away."
That's DeSantis playing to Trump, playing to Trump like a Captain trying to be like the guy on the Costa Concordia.
Do you remember how that ship wound up? Bink. Here's the picture from 2012. I remember, too. You know how I remember? Bink. I was there. Still have that great jacket, don't have that great hair.
The Captain, in that case, was worried about his own fate. He literally left everyone else to die. Who will sound the alarm here that happened in that case?
Do you remember the famous words "Vada a bordo, cazzo!"? "Get back on board, you jerk. You're the Captain. Lead people to safety."
Who will tell Trump to start thinking of everyone else, and start addressing what he avoids, the need for masks, and distancing, and central planning, reopening with smarts, and to avoid what he is addressing, division, making people think this isn't that bad, and rewarding cronies like Governor DeSantis and others who, through recklessness and silence, are literally making us sick.
Pro tip, Mr. President, avoiding this is only making it worse. And, yes, your re-election may well come down to this moment. Time to get back on the ship and find a better course. Vada a bordo! Get back at the helm. Lead us. The storm is here.
15 states saw their highest seven-day averages for new daily cases, as of yesterday, from Alaska to Florida. The United States is a country united in crisis. When will this White House get that?
Let's bring in the Chief Doctor, Sanjay Gupta.
Sanjay, is there any rationale to avoid what we are seeing as being anything but urgency that requires urgent change?
[21:05:00]
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: No. I mean, people - you can't think of this in terms of the short range or long range sort of planning right now.
It's now. Things have to be done right now. Because we're seeing these numbers sort of gather steam, like a big ship, Chris. It gets so much inertia it becomes hard to slow down.
And you are adding more and more fuel to the fire with all these micro-decisions that we hear, people not wearing masks, airlines starting to crowd, people back on the planes again, all those micro- decisions are more fuel for that - for that fire.
And it's, you know, we've got to do everything, we can right now, to slow this thing down, and then sort of reassess. But there is no - there is no need or no rationale at all to wait on any of these decision now, Chris.
CUOMO: Micro-decisions that are co-efficient of macro- misunderstandings.
Governor DeSantis, "I don't think people going to businesses is the problem." Politicians in Texas, "You know, I think it was probably the protesters, you know, that's why things are changing."
Those are just nonsensical assertions. Or do I have it wrong?
GUPTA: No. I mean, at this point, because there is so much inertia going into this - this growth of cases, because there is so much virus out there, we have to do everything we can to pull it back.
I mean, Governor DeSantis, you know, he was, as we know, I mean you've shown the clip, he was doing victory laps and, I think, the entire State took a cue. And the cue was that the virus started to then really, you know, spread throughout that State.
So even now, compared to a month ago, the same strategies you would have used a month ago, the idea of sort of like maybe starting to incrementally let things happen, you can't do that now.
We lost that chance. We lost that opportunity. We lost that ability to make the decision. The virus is now making the decisions for us.
You know, the idea that people are still saying, "You know, we're weighing the decision about masks, we're weighing the decisions about reopening," you can keep doing that.
But the reality is the virus will make the decision for you. Hospitals will become too crowded. People won't have anywhere to go. The virus is going to - is going to dictate all that. And it's already happening in some of these places, Chris.
CUOMO: Well, the good news is that, in Florida, at least everybody at the briefing today had masks on, including the Governor. We're still not getting that on the Federal level.
And we have this bizarro situation going on, where Fauci, and now we've heard from others, saying, "You know, we really need a coordinated national effort." They're on the Task Force.
The Vice President is in charge of the National Task Force, and we don't have a national strategy? Have you ever heard of anything like that?
GUPTA: No. I mean, this - this is, I don't even know how to answer that question, right? I mean there - there's - I've never heard of anything like that.
The fact that we still don't have a tsunami of activity, around some of these things, tsunami of activity around testing, the tsunami of activity around masks, around the contact tracing, all these things, each of these things separately should have had almost their own Task Force to make it work. That was something that Zeke Emanuel talked about.
But we don't have anything that draws these things together. And I will tell you, I think even within the Task Force, there is some friction over some of these things, because - because of the lack of action.
I mean, two months ago, they were saying "Hey, we're going to - we're anticipating a big break-through in testing. We're going to make it so that people can get tested anywhere, any time."
CUOMO: Didn't happen.
GUPTA: "That's how we're going to get some sense of normalcy again." Didn't happen. I mean, you know--
CUOMO: We had a kid of my team--
GUPTA: --Tony Fauci is saying at these--
CUOMO: --who got tested prophylactically because she wasn't feeling great. Took days and days. GUPTA: That should not be the case here. You want to get back to normal, so you want to be able to go into the studio, with your team, if you can get tested on some sort of regular basis that would go a long way.
By the way, they do that at the White House, as you know. So, they talked about that testing's not that important.
CUOMO: And they don't wait six days to get the result.
GUPTA: They get it right away. And they do tests daily there, and that's good. But why can't we do that in other places in the country to get back to some sense of normalcy as well.
CUOMO: Now, also something you gave us tonight, Sanjay.
GUPTA: And, by the way, today--
CUOMO: Go ahead, make your point. Then I want to make a point that you also made.
GUPTA: Today, six months, today, six months, to the day--
CUOMO: Yes.
GUPTA: --when we first heard about this - this strange cluster of pneumonia out of China. Now we see 10 million people infected, 500,000 people dead, six months to the day, Chris.
CUOMO: National emergency has been over 100 days, I think, almost 110 days. And we just had Dr. Fauci say, and he hasn't been the only one to say it, "There is no national coordinated plan to deal with these situations."
Now, something that you pointed out, important for people, because people are making the right choices, you know, all over the place, I see them wanting to cover their faces. But what you use matters.
Will you put up the full screen of how far coughs travel, based on different materials that Sanjay's team gave us, please? Or I'll read them out loud.
GUPTA: Yes.
CUOMO: OK. None--
GUPTA: Yes.
[21:10:00]
CUOMO: --eight feet is the typical cough travel distance, bandana, 3.6, folded hanky, 1.25, a commercial cone mask, 8 inches, stitched mask, two layers, 2.5 inches.
So, the farther you go away from the actual masks that people want you to wear, the more it can go. Boy, bandana, 3.6, now that sucks. A lot of people are wearing bandanas.
GUPTA: You got to fold it over. I mean, you know, and that makes a difference.
We have the video, I don't know, you can show the actual video of what it looks like, in someone who is masked versus non-masked. It's not perfect. But you start to do the math there, and you'll see that's a exponential decrease in transmission.
There it is. Take the fuel out of the fire. There--
(VIDEO FROM FLORIDA ATLANTIC UNIVERSITY OF MECHANICALLY SIMULATED COUGH)
CUOMO: Is that you coughing?
GUPTA: That's - that is not me coughing, no. That is - that is a - that is a model. Now, put the mask on this person, you're going to see how big a difference it makes, if you do this under a - take a look.
(VIDEO FROM FLORIDA ATLANTIC UNIVERSITY OF MECHANICALLY SIMULATED COUGH)
GUPTA: All right, so a little bit of virus coming out, not getting very far.
CUOMO: Oh, Jeez.
GUPTA: Not really affecting anybody other than the person themselves.
You know, Chris, I thought about this myself, for some time. This is an invisible particle, right, an unseen enemy, as we call it. What if you could see it? What if you could see these little particles--
CUOMO: Would change everything.
GUPTA: --coming out of people's noses and mouths?
CUOMO: Would change everything.
GUPTA: And then tethered by six feet. Yes, it would change everything, right?
CUOMO: Change everything.
GUPTA: We can't see it. Therefore, we think of it as not being real.
CUOMO: You know how I know that's true?
GUPTA: It's real. That's part of the reason we went--
CUOMO: I'll tell you how I know.
GUPTA: Well you--
CUOMO: When I was at ABC News, a 100 years ago, OK, we started doing Black Light stories on the kind of funk that you find wherever people congregate, hotel rooms, you know, everywhere.
And it changed - I've never had stories react the way that did for people to see what was on the doorknob, and the ceiling, and then this, and then that.
It changes when you can see it. If people saw it, coming out of people's faces, we'd feel differently. I don't even think that we'd need the guidance from above, from the Federal officials in the White House.
GUPTA: That's right.
CUOMO: But right now, we do.
And if our President doesn't acknowledge that we need masks, and to socially distance, and take this seriously, we're not going to get where we need. His voice is too big, it's too powerful to be silent, and it is. It's actually worse than silent. He is giving the wrong message.
Sanjay, I got to jump. You always give the right message. That's just one of the many reasons I love you. I still think that was you in the model. But that's OK. If you don't want to go with that story, we won't go with it. I'll talk to you soon.
GUPTA: Love you, Chris.
CUOMO: I love you brother.
GUPTA: Talk to you soon.
CUOMO: The Trump Campaign just scrapped plans for an Alabama rally, next week, why? Well fears over the rising COVID rate.
But when it comes to the mother of all photo-ops, Mount Rushmore, and we know why this President just can't resist going there. He's going to take the risk for everybody else. Thousands are expected in South Dakota this weekend.
"No need for social distancing," says the Governor, "We're doing great here."
Let's talk to a key ally in South Dakota about whether or not this is the right move, and, if so, why, next.
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TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.
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[21:15:00]
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT.
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CUOMO: The show goes on, this Friday, at Mount Rushmore despite Coronavirus. Why? Because the President wants it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. KRISTI NOEM (R-SD): We will have a large event at July 3rd. We told those folks that have concerns that they can stay home. But those who want to come and join us, we'll be giving out free face masks, if they choose to wear one. But we won't be social distancing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: The Fourth of July festivities typically draw close to 30,000 people.
This year, you add in a Presidential visit, and the return of fireworks, after a 11 years, at the site, this could be the largest event in the country, since the pandemic started. Is that a good thing?
Let's bring in Congressman Dusty Johnson, to see if this is what he wants to do during a health crisis.
Good to see you, Congressman. Thank you for taking the opportunity. I hope you and your family are healthy during this time. So, are you happy that your State will have the distinction of having the most people crowded into a place during a pandemic?
REP. DUSTY JOHNSON (R-SD): Well, let's be clear, Chris. We're not talking about 30,000 people. We're talking about a limited number of tickets, 7,500 folks, in an outdoor venue with health screening available.
Everybody is going to be given a mask. And you know what? I recommend they wear them. I thought your last segment was very insightful. I think that's important.
One more thing I want to mention. You know, South Dakota, the landscape in South Dakota is unique. We only have 62 COVID patients hospitalized across the entire State. Our number of cases are going down. This is not Texas. This is not California. This is not Florida.
And, frankly, we know that we can do this in South Dakota, because in the wake of the death of George Floyd, we had protests.
We had large number of people - large numbers of people together in close proximity. They were wearing masks. They were outside. We did not see a spike in infections. And I think celebrating our country is every bit as important as protesting it.
CUOMO: Of course, celebrating the country matters. It's not this or that, right? It's about how. Having thousands of people in one place, why not do it with social distancing?
JOHNSON: Well, and I do think you want to make sure that when any time you have these events that you are being - you are being driven by good data.
And what we know from people like Gottlieb and Birx and Fauci is that if you've got a community or an area that has 80 percent mask compliance, the rate of transmission goes down by more than 90 percent.
I encourage everybody at Mount Rushmore to wear that mask.
CUOMO: So why don't you tell them to wear the mask, if you know that the 80 percent number is key, and you are not going to have them socially distance? Why make it an option?
JOHNSON: Well, and I would just say this. This has been run by the National Park Service. These are dedicated professionals, who understand how to run an event like this.
And, you know, Governor Noem has done a good job as well. When so many other people across this country, were shutting down their States, Governor Noem went a different way. And I think the data has proven that you don't have to shut down an economy to try to keep people safe.
Now, the Governor--
CUOMO: Congressman?
JOHNSON: Yes.
CUOMO: Congressman, we both know that a huge reason that South Dakota has been spared to this point is because it doesn't have density of population the way other states does. The idea that staying open helps you avoid Coronavirus is absurd.
And I'm not talking about the Parks Department. I know they do a great job. I have been around them for decades, OK? I've seen them do their job in the worst of situations. They're beautiful people.
JOHNSON: Beautiful.
[21:20:00]
CUOMO: They are not making the call about the masks. You are. The politicians are. Why should masks be optional when the only way you stave off the virus, in a congested place, is by having one? Why isn't it mandatory?
JOHNSON: Well, listen, you do have governors out there, who understand that different landscapes need to be treated differently.
The Governor of New York is treating the people of South Dakota differently than he is the people of Florida. He understands Florida is a hotspot and that a different risk management approach is needed for Florida folks than it is for South Dakota folks.
CUOMO: It's not an apples-to-apples comparison.
JOHNSON: The Governor - if the Governor--
CUOMO: It's not apples-to-apples, Dusty.
JOHNSON: If the Governor of New York can treat - if the Governor of New York can treat the people of South Dakota differently, why can't the Governor of South Dakota?
CUOMO: OK. Good question. Here's the answer, because it's about the basis for the choice.
Andrew is saying - and look, you can - you can criticize the choice. I can criticize it. But I have plans for this weekend that involve my family. So, what I'm saying is this.
The basis for the Governor of New York with Florida is, "Your cases are out of control and you are not doing what you need to do to control them." This is not apples-to-apples in South Dakota because you don't have the problem with cases. Let's move away from that analogy. It's cumbersome.
Let's deal with the specific analogy, which is you were correct, Congressman. Dr. Fauci does say 80 percent compliance with masks gives you a great chance of cutting down on viruses. But that means you should make them mandatory, not optional.
JOHNSON: Wait but--
CUOMO: Because you will not get the masks, especially at a Trump rally, if you make them optional, because a lot of people, who support the President, as you know, have magically been convinced that a mask is weakness, and may be an insult to him.
JOHNSON: Well, and let me be very clear about this, a mask is not weakness. I mean, I wear a mask all the time in the Capitol.
CUOMO: Good.
JOHNSON: I wear it when I'm going to Thunes Hardware, in Mitchell, South Dakota. Wear it when I'm on the airplane.
I wear it when I am in close proximity to people. Now, my government doesn't tell me that I've got to do that. I do it because it's the right thing to do. And I think the people at Mount Rushmore should wear a mask.
But we have had this argument time and time again.
There had been people who feel like government is the only entity that has the, you know, has all of the answers. And then there are people who feel like, you know, we need to collectively step up, as communities, as societies, and families, and make good decisions. I think we're going to get better compliance long-term, Chris, if we
work together, to get this done, rather than have some sort of edict from Washington D.C.
CUOMO: But the edict from Washington D.C. isn't about how to raise your kid. It's about what you know as a matter of fact helps you in this situation.
I guess, Dusty, what I'm having trouble understanding is, I get the argument that Big Brother is telling us how to live our lives, and we don't like it.
But that's different than a situation where the data suggests that this is best, and perhaps, given the way you've set up this event, your only chance of seeing no viral spread on any mass scale.
Isn't it a no-brainer to say to people, "Look, we're not doing the social distancing," which is dumb, "But, let's wear masks so we give ourselves a chance," period!
JOHNSON: So - so--
CUOMO: How does mandatory help?
JOHNSON: So Chris, where was all of this love of mandatory, big government regulations, when we had people rightfully exercising their First Amendment rights, in hundreds of communities, across the country?
Many of them were wearing masks. They should have been good for them. But it seems to me that - that the love of big government only rears its head when--
CUOMO: What is this big government? You just said--
JOHNSON: Well--
CUOMO: --Fauci says 80 percent--
JOHNSON: Yes.
CUOMO: --and you accept it. This isn't about big government. Who gives a damn about big or small government?
JOHNSON: OK. Set aside big government.
Why would the standard be different for tens of thousands of people out protesting their government, which they have an absolute First Amendment right to do, as long as they do it peacefully?
Why would you have the rules be different for them than you would for people celebrating their country?
CUOMO: A protest is not organized by official entities.
JOHNSON: Well sometimes they are. CUOMO: And you have all these sensitivities about how we wanted to keep the police and the protesters from clashing. Imagine what we would have done if we were enforcing mask policies.
And as you did point out, a lot of the protesters did wear masks, maybe they will to this event as well. But it's not apples-to-apples. And again--
JOHNSON: So, but - but why does it matter who organizes that?
CUOMO: --I see a political convenience being played in a situation that should be about public health, Dusty.
JOHNSON: Political convenience. Political convenience is saying "Oh, as long as there is not one organizer, then we don't need to have a rule or a regulation that binds the crowds."
CUOMO: This is organized by government, Dusty.
JOHNSON: Absolutely.
CUOMO: The protests weren't.
JOHNSON: Well they weren't. But you can still have rules and regulations--
CUOMO: For a protest?
JOHNSON: --that - that impose mask - absolutely. You can say, "Listen everybody, these are the rules. You got to follow the rules." But conveniently, CNN, and your show, weren't calling for those kinds of regulations.
CUOMO: Hold on, hold on, Dusty, hold on, hold on.
JOHNSON: Yes.
CUOMO: I was talking about super-spreaders at the protests.
JOHNSON: Yes.
CUOMO: We had multiple segments about how it's going to be wrong.
But you cannot believe that this is apples-to-apples. You are organizing this by choice.
[21:25:00]
Those are protests of people who, in many cases, are angry and outraged, and were trying to keep the temperature down. We, forget about me, I cover it. You are trying to keep it down.
You make the decisions about how the police deal with protesters, on a large scale. And to have them enforce a no-mask policy, when they're already hitting the streets, because of police intervention in their lives, would have been madness. It's not apples-to-apples, unless you are only looking at this through
a partisan lens, "The Left like the protests."
JOHNSON: No.
CUOMO: "Why don't they like our fireworks display?" I think that's unfair and counterproductive.
JOHNSON: Chris, you want to talk about political convenience. Political convenience is wanting to have an entirely different set of rules, for people protesting their country, than for those who are celebrating it.
The bottom line is people should be wearing the masks. And I think a lot of them will be.
CUOMO: And they would - more would be, if it were mandatory. But Dusty, I appreciate you coming here to make the case. You always have an invitation to do so.
JOHNSON: Thank you.
CUOMO: God bless you and your family.
JOHNSON: Thanks, Chris.
CUOMO: All right, video, running all over the place. And yes, yes, yes, yes, bring it on in social media, let me know what you thought of the segment.
But what did you think when you saw this?
(VIDEO - ST. LOUIS COUPLE PULLS GUNS ON PROTESTERS)
The video of the husband and wife pulling out the guns when the protesters went by their mansion? Do you think they were under siege? What do you think about this reaction? Should they have been afraid?
I wanted to hear their side of the story because, I honestly believe, this is a metaphor, for our country right now. And it's no way for us to move forward together. So, let's have the conversation.
Mark McCloskey is here to take us through what he saw, what he feared and the rationale that he and his wife used. Let's listen up ahead.
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TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.
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[21:30:00]
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT.
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CUOMO: A lot of videos go viral. I have been in a few. But few catch the eyes of the President who retweeted an article about this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(VIDEO - ST. LOUIS COUPLE PULLS GUNS ON PROTESTERS)
MARK MCCLOSKEY, ST. LOUIS RESIDENT: Keep moving!
(MUSIC)
MCCLOSKEY: Keep moving! Keep moving!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: The scenes of a Missouri couple pointing guns at a crowd of protesters, Mark and Patricia McCloskey, that's who they are.
Now they claim the demonstrators smashed through the gates of their private street, then rushed toward their house, while their family ate dinner outside.
The McCloskeys say they warned the group they were trespassing, arguing that the people didn't stop. They say they saw several protesters were armed, themselves, so they called the cops.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCCLOSKEY: It was like the storming of the Bastille. The gate came down, and a large crowd, a very angry, shouting, aggressive people poured through. I was terrified that we'd be murdered within seconds that our house would be burned down, that our pets would be killed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: Now, the protesters weren't there for the McCloskeys. They were headed to the St. Louis Mayor's home, angry that she had revealed some of the home addresses of people demanding police reform.
Now that you've watched the video, let's hear what Mark McCloskey has to say about it. He's here next.
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[21:35:00]
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TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT.
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CUOMO: We are now joined by Mark McCloskey. He is the St. Louis homeowner we told you about in that video that's all over social media. He and his wife, holding guns, keeping protesters away, in their opinion, from their home, on a private street.
He is an attorney. And the couple also has outside Counsel who joins us now, Albert Watkins.
Thank you both for joining me.
ALBERT WATKINS, MARK MCCLOSKEY'S ATTORNEY: Indeed.
MCCLOSKEY: Indeed.
CUOMO: Counselor, and Mr. McCloskey/Counselor, we can talk about the legal rights and the facts.
But I want to talk about not having a right but whether or not something is right first, which is, how do you feel about becoming the face of political resistance to the Black Lives Matter Movement?
MCCLOSKEY: First of all, that's a completely ridiculous statement. I'm not the face of anything opposing the Black Lives Matters Movement. I was a person scared for my life, who was protecting my wife, my home, my hearth, my livelihood.
I was a victim of a mob that came through the gate. I didn't care what color they were. I didn't care what their motivation was. I was frightened. I was assaulted, and I was in imminent fear that they would run me over, kill me, burn my house.
And you have to have this in the context of St. Louis, where on June, the 2nd of this year, I watched the City burn, I watched the 7-Eleven get smashed in, looted, and burned for 40 minutes, on live television, with nobody showing up to do anything.
And I realized, at that time, we're on our own. When bad things happen, they unpredictably turn it really bad, real fast. That's the same night Retired St. Louis Police Captain David Dorn was murdered.
These things get very bad very quickly. And when those people came through the gate, when it was a mob, I didn't take the time to see their - their birth certificates or anything else.
I was defending my house, my life, my wife, and what I've spent 32 years building there.
CUOMO: I understand what you say your rationale was. To be clear, did anything happen to you or your property?
MCCLOSKEY: Did anything happen to - yes. My - my life has been ruined. CUOMO: No. No. No. No.
MCCLOSKEY: I am the target of--
CUOMO: No. We'll get to that, Mr. McCloskey. I don't mean to cut you off. But I'm saying, that night, did anything happen to you, your family or your property?
MCCLOSKEY: Yes, it's called social intimidation. It's called terrorism.
Chris, what's the definition of terrorism? To use violence and intimidation to frighten the public. That's what was happening that night. It's what happened to me. And that's the damage I suffered.
CUOMO: You were the one--
MCCLOSKEY: And I'll--
CUOMO: --pointing a loaded weapon at a group of people, who were walking past, looking for the Mayor's house, as a point of protest.
MCCLOSKEY: No, I'm doing this.
Chris, that's an entirely false concept. No single media outlet has ever mentioned the complete falsity of that statement. The Mayor's house cannot be reached through my neighborhood.
Lyda Krewson lives up on a road called Lake and Washington. That's three blocks north, and a half a mile west, of my house. To get--
CUOMO: So where do you think they were going?
MCCLOSKEY: They were going through a private neighborhood for the intention of going through a private neighborhood, in my humble opinion. In retrospect, at the time, I didn't have any time to think about this.
However, the leader of the entity called "Expect US" that organized this, whatever it was, announced ahead of time that he does not want to have a peaceful protest. He wants to have it be as disruptive as possible.
And when interviewed subsequently, he said, "I know it was illegal. I know it was a private neighborhood. But when you're doing protests of this nature, it's necessary to break the law to get your ends met." And that's - that's what was happening.
[21:40:00]
Of course, I didn't know any of that at the time. All I knew was that hundreds of people screaming, shouting, angry--
WATKINS: (OFF-MIKE).
MCCLOSKEY: --broke through the private gate. Everything inside that gate is private property.
CUOMO: Right.
MCCLOSKEY: Any pretense of - of protest, as opposed to terrorism, ended when they broke through that gate.
CUOMO: Terrorism is a strong word, Counselor, don't you think? I mean, let's - let's stipulate for the point of this conversation that--
MCCLOSKEY: Oh, Chris. I care--
CUOMO: --they went through the private - look, I'll let you make your points. Let the rejoinders happen and then you can go.
MCCLOSKEY: Sure. Sure.
CUOMO: You got Counsel with you. You are safe. I promise.
The idea that they broke the law, I give it to you. They went through a private gate. I am sure you have video of it or somebody can prove that. I stipulate. They went through the gate.
But they're yelling. They're angry. They did not go up your steps. They didn't go to your house. They didn't touch you. They didn't try to enter your home. They didn't try to do anything, to your kids.
But you say you were assaulted. You are using the civil definition of that, which is that you had the apprehension that something bad was going to happen to you, but nothing did.
But the call "Terrorism" when the people are there protesting, how the community is treated by the police, is a little bit of reverse psychology, at a minimum, is it not?
MCCLOSKEY: No. You are absolutely - you are absolutely wrong. The reason why they did not get up my steps was that my wife and I were there with weapons to keep them off our steps. When we confronted--
CUOMO: How do you know?
MCCLOSKEY: Because they were coming at us until I displayed the weapon and that stopped them. I came out--
CUOMO: So, do you wait - I'm sure a house like that--
MCCLOSKEY: --on the way - wait, stop you - wait, wait, wait, Chris. You--
CUOMO: --I'm sure a house like that has cameras. Do you have video of them coming up the steps and being in your house?
MCCLOSKEY: I'm not going to discuss the level of my private security on national television. That's--
CUOMO: Oh, but - but do you--
MCCLOSKEY: --that's not a topic for you because then you--
CUOMO: --have proof of them actually approaching your house?
WATKINS: You know, Chris, this is not a Black Lives Matters Movement issue. This is a matter of not just one discussion that we have to have.
You said we have to have a discussion. We too. And every melanin- challenged old White man like me needs to listen, and hear the message, the message of Black Lives Matter.
What the second part of this discussion is, and it's not mutually exclusive, is the rights, constitutional rights, of each and every citizen in this land. They can't be compromised with - without recognizing that the message of Black Lives Matter will cease to have any meaning at all.
CUOMO: But who is breaking? But - but how does that justify--
WATKINS: Because with that we have anarchy.
CUOMO: --what happened here, Counselor?
WATKINS: Well I'm - let - yes. Let's talk about justification.
CUOMO: I'm not - I'm not saying that he didn't have a right to say that they entered a private street. But they were protesting. And he has become the face, how so? The President--
WATKINS: He - he became - he became - he became--
CUOMO: --retweeted this for a reason, Counselor.
WATKINS: --he became the - he became the face involuntarily.
CUOMO: I'm not saying - I'm not saying it was voluntary.
WATKINS: My client--
MCCLOSKEY: Let me--
CUOMO: I'm saying why do you think the President retweeted it?
WATKINS: I know - look, you can talk all night. You can let me answer.
CUOMO: Well I just asked you a question.
WATKINS: The fact of the matter is my client--
CUOMO: Answer it.
WATKINS: --my client - my client had--
CUOMO: Why do think the President retweeted it?
WATKINS: Oh, that's a separate question. CUOMO: No.
WATKINS: I can't speak for--
CUOMO: But that's the one I'm asking.
WATKINS: I - well that's a second question.
MCCLOSKEY: Maybe you should ask the President.
WATKINS: Maybe here - you should ask the President. I am not going to ever--
CUOMO: He doesn't answer my questions. But he answers by his actions.
WATKINS: I'm not going to answer.
CUOMO: All right, go ahead.
MCCLOSKEY: I'm not going to speak for the President. In fact, quite frankly, I find it probably an impossibility for anyone to speak for the President. And that's assuming one wants to say the President speaks.
CUOMO: I don't even know what the hell you're talking about.
Mr. McCloskey, this is what I'm saying. The President retweeted this thing for a reason. Why do you think he retweeted it?
MCCLOSKEY: You know, I don't have any idea why the President retweeted it. I've not seen it. Not seen the retweet. I think you ought to ask the President. And if he - if he--
CUOMO: He deleted it.
MCCLOSKEY: You know, I was reluctant to come on your--
CUOMO: He deleted it.
MCCLOSKEY: --I was - I was - I was reluctant to come on your show for - for a similar reason. But let me say this. You said it was protesting police brutality. That's absolutely inaccurate.
The announced purpose for this event was to ask the Mayor Lyda Krewson, whose own husband was murdered in her driveway, in that same house, years ago, in front of her and her kids, OK, that's how un- dangerous these things are.
The alleged purpose of this event was to ask her to resign for doxxing protesters--
CUOMO: Right.
MCCLOSKEY: --who are - but guess what, have I been doxxed?
Have those very people that were walking down my street, screaming death threats at me, and threatening to burn my house, and kill my dog, and what rooms in my house they were going to live in, after they killed me, do you think them then distributing my information all over the Western Hemisphere is different than what they're asking the Mayor to resign for doing?
This hypocrisy is just obvious nonsense.
CUOMO: Look. Again--
MCCLOSKEY: They have--
CUOMO: --again, Mr. McCloskey, I don't like that you have been weaponized for political means. I am not saying that you weren't within your rights to do what you were doing. That will be judged by the system.
[21:45:00]
That's not why I'm having you on the show. As I said at the top, and you said, I didn't want to come on the show, listen, I think I'm fair.
I'm not going to use you as a pawn to advance my own agenda, like the show you just went on, which is where somebody wants people to see Black Lives Matter as inimical to the American cause. I don't make those kinds of judgments for people.
But the guy who just walked past your house on the looping piece of video had "Hands up, don't shoot" on this.
The stated purpose of this demonstration, and that's all we can go on, is that they didn't like that the Mayor outed, or as you say, doxxed people, who were for defunding the police. And now, you can like that or not like that.
But you have been used and politically weaponized as a face of White Resistance to that Movement, and that's why I asked you that, not because that's how you see yourself, but that's how you're being seen. And I wanted to give you a chance, with Counsel, to respond to that.
I don't see--
MCCLOSKEY: OK. I--
CUOMO: --I don't see how you could see that--
WATKINS: I will respond to that.
CUOMO: --as an unfair question.
WATKINS: My client has, since the very outset of this publicity, made it really, really clear, the last thing he wanted to do, and he and his wife are both appalled at the prospect of being utilized as a - as a rallying call for people sitting in BarcaLoungers with a Confederate flag behind them and a 12-gauge in their hand.
My clients have fought, as lawyers, for three-plus decades, for the Civil Rights of people of color. My clients are completely behind and endorsed the message of BLM.
What they are not capable of doing is embracing the abject utilization of that noble message that we all need to hear over and over and over again, as a license to rape, rob, pillage, bowl over all of our rights from--
CUOMO: None of that happened here, by the way.
WATKINS: Oh, I beg - I bet your pardon. When you have a man and a wife, on their property, in their home, with a full-on assault occurring by a mob--
CUOMO: What full-on assault?
WATKINS: --that, by the way - oh, wait a second. Oh, I - I beg your pardon. That's not correct.
CUOMO: They're walking down the street in front of the house, Mr. Watkins.
MCCLOSKEY: Chris? Chris? Chris?
WATKINS: You don't have your facts correct.
CUOMO: I'm just looking at the video.
MCCLOSKEY: Chris, you were not there.
CUOMO: Mr. McCloskey, please, I give you the last word.
MCCLOSKEY: Yes, and you're looking at--
WATKINS: There are a thousand videos out there, right?
MCCLOSKEY: OK.
WATKINS: You look at all of them. Look at the crowd. And, by the way, the three, two or three, depending on whether a third was involved, that instigated it, that broke down that - that fence, that busted through that gate, these individuals seriously were not people of color.
CUOMO: Yes, I read that.
MCCLOSKEY: Chris?
CUOMO: That you say it was White guys that initially spooked you about what you needed to do. Mr. McCloskey, go ahead, last word to you.
MCCLOSKEY: All right, guy stands in front of me, pulls out two loaded pistol magazines, snaps them together in front of my face, and says, "You're next," OK? If you were there, Chris, I think you'd feel like you had a right to defend yourself, as well.
CUOMO: Absolutely. Somebody takes out magazines, or ammunition, and clicks it, and makes a direct threat to me, I would feel threatened a 100 percent.
MCCLOSKEY: And that's what happened to me.
CUOMO: And look, I know that you are going through a process with this. I welcome you having Counsel.
If you were within your rights, to do what you were doing, it should be adjudged as such. I wanted to talk to you about the broader implication because it's just a horrible picture of what's going on in America right now.
So, to me, it's not about what's right and what's wrong, just in a court of law. It's about what we want right - right and wrong about how we treat each other. And that's why the President retweeted this tweet--
WATKINS: And that's why we're here today.
CUOMO: --Mr. Watkins, you know it, and Mr. McCloskey, you know it. He retweeted it because he liked the image of White Resistance to this Movement. And I'm not saying that was fair to you. But we know that's why he did it because that's why he deleted it.
MCCLOSKEY: Well I'm glad you're--
CUOMO: I wanted you to speak for yourself.
MCCLOSKEY: I'm glad you are a mind-reader because no one else thinks you are.
CUOMO: Oh, in fact, he didn't delete it. Good, makes my point even more.
MCCLOSKEY: No.
CUOMO: You didn't say that. It was said to me, for me.
I'm thinking about something else, where someone was screaming White Power in a video that the President retweeted. He deleted that one. He didn't delete the one of you. I wanted to give you a chance to speak about it.
We both know you don't have to be a mind-reader to assess a pattern. You're not a mind-reader either. I haven't seen the video of the person clapping the magazines. But you drew certain inferences from the behavior before you. I'm doing the same thing.
We've seen behavior before us. I'm making a judgment. I'm sorry that you were caught in it the way you are, if it's not what you intended by all of this, Mr. McCloskey. And I wish you good luck.
Mr. Watkins, thank you for representing your client. Appreciate you taking the opportunity.
WATKINS: Thank you. Thank you for the time.
MCCLOSKEY: Thank you.
CUOMO: Be well.
We'll be right back.
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[21:50:00]
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CUOMO: "A 100,000 new COVID cases a day," that's what Dr. Anthony Fauci is warning us about, and Congress, that that's what will come if the U.S. continues on the track that it's on right now.
For a look at the reality, potentially, here's Nick Watt.
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NICK WATT, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Arizona's average daily death toll about doubled during the month of June.
FAUCI: The numbers speak for themselves. I'm very concerned and I'm not satisfied with what's going on because we're going in the wrong direction. Clearly, we are not in total control right now.
WATT: In Texas, the numb of COVID-19 patients in hospitals more than tripled during the month of June.
DR. ROBERT REDFIELD, CDC DIRECTOR: In the United States, daily cases are increasing, after an extended decline.
WATT: Average daily cases in Florida, up more than six fold during the month of June, beaches in the south of the State also closing again before the Fourth of July weekend.
MAYOR DAN GELBER, (D) MIAMI BEACH, FLORIDA: We don't have a lot of tools left in the kit right now. So, you know, we're trying everything we can to stop this spread and reverse what is a very enormous spike in our community and in our State.
WATT: Today is 162 days since the first confirmed case here in the U.S. But one senior CDC official says this is really the beginning.
[21:55:00] FAUCI: We can't just focus on those areas that are having this surge. It puts the entire country at risk. We are now having 40,000-plus new cases a day. I would not be surprised if we go up to 100,000 a day if this does not turn around.
WATT: And the death rate?
FAUCI: It is going to be very disturbing, I will guarantee you that.
WATT: But it might not be too late.
REDFIELD: It is critical that we all take the personal responsibility to slow the transmission of COVID-19 and embrace the universal use of face coverings.
WATT: But in at least 10 of the 15 states right now suffering record numbers of new cases, there is no State-wide mask mandate. But you should still wear one.
REDFIELD: Specifically, I'm addressing the younger members of our society, the Millennials and the Generation Zs.
WATT: The economic pain of all this is obvious and crippling, people now camping overnight outside an Unemployment Office in Oklahoma. But Dr. Fauci says states must not open too fast, and we all must stop doing this.
FAUCI: We're going to continue to be in a lot of trouble, and there's going to be a lot of hurt, if that does not stop.
WATT: New Jersey, Connecticut, and New York, where even the famous Library Lions are masked, now asking incomers from 16 spiking states to quarantine. Massachusetts, asking the same of anyone, coming in, from outside the Northeast.
And starting tomorrow, the European Union will let travelers in from 14 countries, and China, if they reciprocate, but not from the United States.
Nick Watt, CNN, Los Angeles.
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CUOMO: This is where grandmother would say "Ay! Ay! Ay!"
Is it possible to increase our testing for COVID by as much as 10 times where it is now? That's what Dr. Birx of the Task Force is saying. But it would take a different strategy.
So, let's talk to Dr. William Schaffner, back to help us understand poor testing and - not poor, we're doing poor testing, pool testing, and whether it's worth a try, next.
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