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Cuomo Prime Time

Health Experts Begging Everyone To Cooperate In Combating The Virus; Rep. Abigail Spanberger (D-VA) Is Interviewed About The Bounty Money That Was Given To The Taliban To Kill American Troops In Afghanistan; Americans Are Pissed Of The Replay Complaints; Music, The Language Of All Emotions. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired June 30, 2020 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[22:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: All right. I'm Chris Cuomo. Welcome back to a bonus hour of PRIME TIME.

I've got good news and bad news on COVID. The bad news unless you live in New Jersey or Rhode Island. New cases are steady are on the rise wherever you are. Almost 40,000 new cases just yesterday. Dr. Anthony Fauci now fears the number of new cases could soar to 100,000.

Now, here's that good news I promised. We can do something about it. That six-figure number Fauci warned us about isn't a guarantee. Wear the mask. Socially distance. It will help. Fauci says the key together as ever as one.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: One of the things that I would like to see is an appreciation on the part of our entire nation of the importance of responding as a nation as a whole. And not have a situation when you have a challenge such as we have right now, we have very desperate responses. We've got to do it in a coordinated way because we are all in this together.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: Now, the context of that statement in light of the Trump administration's response to this crisis is so disappointing. Here's the vice president today kicking the idea of mandatory mask wearing down the chain.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL PENCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE United STATES OF America: We believe that Americans should wear a mask whenever state and local authorities indicate that it's appropriate.

(END VIDEO CLIP) CUOMO: Have you seen the map, Mr. Vice President? We're all in the affected areas or damn close to it. Look, we can beat this thing and we will beat it if we are smart about it. If we work together and we take care of each other.

Let's talk to Dr. William Schaffner about some possible answers. Welcome back to Prime Time. you have been saying much the same thing for many months now. And yes, it has been months. The idea of pool testing. What does it mean? Why does it matter?

WILLIAM SCHAFFNER, PROFESSOR OF INFECTIOUS DISEASES, VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY: Well, what it does for us is conserve testing resources. You know, our testing resources are still limited. The notion is that let's say here's an example. you take specimens from 10 persons and pool them together and do a test on the pool. If they're all negative, then you can tell that all 10 persons are negative. But you've done that with one test.

Of course, if the pool is positive then you have to go back to those 10 individuals. One, two, three, four, et cetera, to find the one or more who are positive. But many times, you can test many people, get a negative pool with only one test and go on for -- go on to others. So, you preserve testing resources and you also save a little money.

CUOMO: The idea of having no coordinated national response as said by Dr. Fauci and others. Significance?

SCHAFFNER: Well, Dr. Fauci was almost crying for a national response but he couldn't ask for it. That's what we need. We have 50 governors each inventing the wheel all over.

[22:05:01]

And we have different programs across the 50 states and I don't know how many territories. No wonder there's confusion and incoordination. We need a national order for everyone to wear a mask. We need six-foot distancing. Nationally. Avoiding crowds. Nationally. And we all have to do that together. The orchestra can't make beautiful music unless they have a conductor keeping everyone together.

CUOMO: What do you say to Governor DeSantis who says I don't think people going to businesses is the problem.

SCHAFFNER: Well, people everywhere who are close together. Whether they are going to businesses, bars, to the beach or to religious services or any group events. Have to be masked. Because we all know that there can be people without symptoms who can spread this virus.

And so, in order to prevent that, I wear the mask to protect you, you wear it, of course, to protect me. And now we have even more data that will make a lot of people happy. If you wear the mask you are also protected yourself.

So, the mask does work both ways. But we all need to do that together. If a substantial proportion of people don't do that, the virus will find them and spread. (CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: No big brother. no big brother, doc. No big brother. No. Too much government in my life. Telling me how to live. Let me make my own choice I'll arrive with the right conclusion.

SCHAFFNER: Chris, we're all in this together. We all agree to go on the green and stop on the red. If somebody goes on red, they not only endanger themselves they endanger everybody else around them.

A contagious disease is just like that. If you are not wearing a mask, you're going on the red. And you're endangering people around you. We have to do this together. We have to join together and, on the occasion, we have to oblige ourselves to do that.

CUOMO: You're a doctor, you're a scientist but you understand the policy and the intersection of science and politics. Why do you believe there's no national coordinated response?

SCHAFFNER: You're asking me to make a political statement. Our national leadership has chosen not to do that. It's either in their inherent political philosophy or they simply don't have the manager inclinations to do that. I'm afraid the question ought to be directed to them.

CUOMO: We do it all the time. We do it all the time. hey, Dr. Schaffner, thank you so much for keeping us straight on the science and how we all have to work together. Obviously, that's the best medicine. God bless. I'll talk to you soon.

SCHAFFNER: Good to be with you, Chris.

CUOMO: All right. Forget that White House press secretary Kayleigh I cannot tell a lie McEnany insists the president does in fact read everything he needs to read. We need to look at the real threat to U.S. troops in the risk that Russia was putting a bounty on their heads. No matter what memos may have been ignored. What is the truth of the matter here? Where do we have to focus?

Former CIA officer, now Congresswoman Abigail Spanberger is here. What's her take? Next.

[22:10:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CUOMO: Now the story has changed. No question about it. So here's the latest. The White House says President Trump has been fully briefed on the intel about this possible Russian plot to offer money to the Taliban to kill our troops.

Remember, the president denied to your face knowing anything about this just two days ago. The administration argues the evidence of what Russia maybe doing is not conclusive. And that's why Trump wasn't told about it. So, what changed?

Meanwhile, Democrats and some Republicans are demanding more answers as at gang of eight gets set to be briefed tomorrow.

Democratic Congresswoman Abigail Spanberger is a former CIA operative. She was in a classified briefing of her own on this today. Good to see you. I hope you and the family are healthy during this time.

REP. ABIGAIL SPANBERGER (D-VA): We are. I hope you're doing well, and thank you for having me on.

CUOMO: So, Spanberger, tell me what to think about all of this.

SPANBERGER: Well, I personally have a lot more questions than I have answers. And I think it's incredibly important that we have a full briefing in Congress and that we welcome intelligence officials. I would love to see Director Haspel come in from CIA and speak to what threats do or don't exist against our service members and U.S. personnel overseas.

CUOMO: Could it be that I should be shaking a finger at both sides on this. The A.P. is reporting that Bolton briefed the president about this in March of last year. OK? So, like maybe he forgot or the White House forgot or there's a new group at the White House so they can't get it straight.

But I also am hearing that there's a chance that Democrats who have been made aware of this over time as well. And if the first part is true then they are lying to us at the White House again and the president fell down on his own duties. OK.

If the other part is true that means that the Democrats are bringing this up only now. Why? Is that political opportunism?

SPANBERGER: Well, I think there's a couple things to consider here within context. And the context is that over the past couple of months the President of the United States has had reportedly five phone calls with Vladimir Putin. He has lobbied for Vladimir Putin to attend the G7 summit. Potentially rejoin as a member of that organization bumping it back up to G8.

[22:15:02]

All the while potentially knowing or not knowing that there is the possibility that the Russian government and Russian intel services are willing to pay bounties for dead Americans.

So, I think recognizing the greater context of what is happening and the actions the president was taking. That, I mean, that's one of the reasons why I am so incredibly concerned about this because of the context.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: What do you make of this idea, Congresswoman, that this may not be new? that this is something they have been pursuing this for some time and the intelligence has been significant but not compelling. You have experience in both worlds.

SPANBERGER: Yes.

CUOMO: What does that smile like to you?

SPANBERGER: So, I'm a former CIA case officer as you mentioned in the intro. And just to speak about how intelligence comes to be and how intelligence reports like the ones discussed in public reporting would come to be is there's a collection of information.

And that information is collected from human sources and liaison sources and signals intelligence and all of this different means. And it is overlaid. It is overlaid to form a picture and to corroborate what we know from one source to validate what we hear from another source.

And as the picture becomes clearer the intelligence becomes potentially something that needs to be briefed in one place or another. So, I think that the fact that there may have been elements of the story kind of putting together pieces of a puzzle is completely aligned with the way that larger intelligence and finished analytic products are produced. Which is you get source documents and finished intelligence reports and put them together in order to create finished intelligence that goes out to the intelligence community or potentially to the president.

CUOMO: The handwringing from the Democrats on this suggests that this is something that we know and that this has been slept on by the White House maybe out of political convenience. Do you share that opinion that this is something that is so well known that it should have been discussed and acted upon? Or wouldn't the intelligence community have been taking this in a different direction if it really knew for sure about this.

SPANBERGER: So, I think that the question has to be what actions do we want to see from the administration, from the President of the United States when there's allegations that foreign adversary nation and one that he's been quite friendly too is putting bounties on the heads of U.S. service members overseas.

And I'll tell you what I want to see a full denunciation of this, you know, the potential that this may be true. I want to hear we are going to get to the bottom of this. We are going to turn over every stone to determine, you know, even greater validity. Whether or not it's true or not. And we will take actions to defend our U.S. service members who are risking everything.

CUOMO: Understood.

SPANBERGER: And Chris, --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: Understood.

SPANBERGER: Yes.

CUOMO: But hold on one second and then -- SPANBERGER: Sure.

CUOMO: -- I'll let you finish. But the -- you wouldn't want the president going after Russia for something if you didn't think you could prove it. Because then what you'd be handing him is a stick to beat our president and our country over the head with. Right? Where, if you went off, OK, we think this is true and he goes out and says it, Putin is going to say it's a lie. That's what he always says. Right? And then now it's on us to prove that it's true.

So, if you from the intelligence side aren't there, would you really be wanting the president to deal with the allegations?

SPANBERGER: So, I think in sort of digging deep into the question of that you're putting out there. One, Putin is always going to deny whatever adverse activity they are malign efforts there taking to undermine the democracies be it ours or other democracies across the world. They're always going to deny. That's part and parcel of what they do.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: That's why you need the proof.

SPANBERGER: And the other challenge that the whole concept of intelligence is we come by it clandestinely. And so there may never be a time as it relates to kind of highly classified information that we can fully disclose how it is that we, and I say we in the larger sense of the United States can disclose how it is that we know something to a high degree of confidence. Because some of those sources and methods cannot be revealed.

And I'm speaking in generalities to this -- to this question about, you know, what is the step forward and how do you get become or go public with information that's not always going to be possible when you're dealing with highly classified information.

CUOMO: Spanberger, how is it that I feel that you are always asking more questions than you're answering on this show. Are you working on some kind of CIA jedi mind trick on me? Where I -- where I ask you a question, you say, well, I think the question is, and then you answer that question when it's not what I asked.

But at the end of the day, here's the last thing, Congresswoman, you know I appreciate your participation on the show. Where should we be as Americans hearing this information? Where should our heads be in terms of how serious this is and how concerned we should be that somebody slept on a real threat to kill our fighting men and women?

[22:20:01]

SPANBERGER: So, I would dial it back a little bit. We don't even have to be talking about somebody slept on this information or didn't. I think that's not even the major focus. The focus is right now out in the public sphere there is the allegation and there's reporting across an array of media outlets in great detail that speaks to the fact that Russia has allegedly put bounties out on the heads of American service members and civilian personnel overseas.

And so, where we should be on this is, we should all be wanting more answers. We should all be saying we want members of the intel community to come before Congress. We want to ensure that there are briefings. We do not want to politicize or drag this into a partisan fight.

This is the lives of service members that may or may not be threatened. We should all say if this is true it is outrageous and it is an affront to everything that is -- you know, the base of our democracy. It is an incursion. It is an assault by a foreign government. If this is true, we are united in our effort to reject it and to hold Russia accountable. And we are going to be measured and we are going to focused.

But what I haven't heard and in the briefing today, what I said to the White House chief of staff is I want to hear that coming from the White House. I want to hear that coming from the president. We are getting to the bottom of this. But if this is true, it is unacceptable.

And that's where we should all be as Americans. It isn't a political issue. It isn't a partisan issue. This is potentially life or death for the children and the family members and the parents of people back home.

In my district I represent hundreds of thousands of Virginians. Many of them are veterans. Many people deployed overseas. This is about protecting our own national security and protecting our friends and neighbors who are in a war zone in harm's way. And the notion that that risk to them is heightened because there might be a bounty on their head should be objectionable and something that every American rally behind to oppose.

CUOMO: Hopefully we get to the bottom of it. Congresswoman Abigail Spanberger, Democrat of Virginia, thank you for being on Prime Time as always.

SPANBERGER: Thank you very much for having me.

CUOMO: All right. Joe Biden, coming out swinging. jolting Joe Biden saying that Trump is no wartime president as he labeled himself. We heard a lot more from the former V.P. today than we have in a while. Why and what's the impact. The polls factor in? Let's put it to the man who knows. The Ax. David Axelrod, next.

[22:25:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CUOMO: Polls are only a snapshot a suggestion of a moment in time. That said, Joe Biden is watching his poll numbers climb. A new poll shows satisfaction in this country plummeting. It's fueling Biden's tough talk like this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: He called himself a wartime

president. What happened? Now it's almost July. And it seems like our wartime president has surrendered. Waived the right flag -- white flag and left the battlefield.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: State of play. Let's bring in a man who knows a thing or two really about everything. Certainly, presidential campaigns. David Axelrod. I miss you, my brother. It's good to see you even if it's only in 2D.

DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, good to see you, my friend.

CUOMO: So, give me a general assessment before we start to dig in about where things seem to be in this race.

AXELROD: Look, I think that the president is in a deep hole. And it's a hole that he's dug himself. His handling of the COVID-19 crisis has been a disastrous for the country but disastrous for him politically. And you can see it in the numbers.

I mean, his rating on handling the crisis which is the story is in the low 30s. And people just disagree with him on fundamental questions of how quickly we should open up. About wearing masks and so on.

He just staked out the wrong ground. He obviously didn't handle the aftermath of George Floyd in a way that most Americans would like to see. And the divisiveness that people excuse before now has become costly in people's mind. And that has hurt him.

And of course, we'll see where this Russia story develops. But, you know, what it has amounted to is that something that I thought I would never see in this race. Which is either candidate with a double-digit lead in, you know, going into heading into the conventions.

This is a closely divided country. And so, we thought structurally very hard for someone to mount a lead like this. And a lot of it is Trump's own fault. You know, Biden has been relatively quiet and Trump has had the stage. He has hurt himself and I think Biden stepped out today because he saw an opportunity to play offense while the president was in a deep hole.

CUOMO: How'd you like his offense?

AXELROD: Very good. I mean I thought that, you know, the points he made were obviously very good. Strong strategically. You know, the obvious deficiency and the president's handling of the crisis. And the questions that are now boiling up about his handling of this Russia situation.

But more than that, Chris, and you'll appreciate this because of your history and your family experience, there was a muscularity of the language that I think was really important. You know, what Trump likes to sell is he's strong, he's tough. And in this case, Biden turned the tables on him. And really, he called him weak. And his every one of his answers in his press conference kind of turned the table on Trump.

[22:30:04]

And frankly, if people make the judgment that Biden is the strong one, Trump really has nothing left.

Now listen, it's 126 days from this election. That has to be noted. We had no idea four months ago what these four months would bring. We don't know what the next four months will bring. But as of right now, you'd have to say that Biden is in a very strong position. And if I think he is stronger tonight than he was this morning for his performance today.

CUOMO: The concern is that the downside on the president peaks too soon. And if the theory of the case for Biden is that the president beats himself. If cases do start to turn the other way, if the economy does start to come back the picture can change.

But I'm suggesting things that we can't know yet. That's why I'll need you on regular basis going forward. David Axelrod, God bless you and the family. Thank you for being a benefit to my audience as always.

(CROSSTALK)

AXELROD: Good to see you, brother. Thank you.

CUOMO: be well. All right. You heard Congresswoman Spanberger on the program just a few minutes ago say she wants answers on the Russia bounty intel. You just heard Ax factoring it in to a significant aspect potentially of the election.

But while Dems and GOPiers fight over what we really know, there's a voice we also need to hear from. An advocate for the people who supposedly are being hunted, you know, like for money. Those still on the front lines. P.J. Rieckhoff he's got a bigger problem with what's going on than what the Russians maybe up to. What is it? Next.

[22:35:03]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CUOMO: OK. So, we all have to be on the same page about this. OK? If our fighting men and women are being hunted for bounties in Afghanistan, bounties paid by Russia. We need our government to step up and protect them now. Because they protect us. We owe them that.

Our friend P.J. Rieckhoff is here to help us take this conversation out of Washington and remember why we should care. It's not about a got you contest. It's about taking care of our fighting men and women.

P.J., brother, I love you. I want to read a tweet. I'm so sick and tired of politicians talking. This is who he is. They knew it. They all knew it from both parties. And now they're out raged because U.S. troops are involved. Let's take that idea. Why both sides?

PAUL RIECKHOFF, UNITED STATES ARMY VETERAN: Well, because the American national security is never been a greater risk in our lifetime right now, Chris. We knew what Donald Trump was all about. He said what he was going to do, he continues to do it and he weakens our national security over and over again. Whether it's pulling out and abandoning the Kurds or moving money from the Pentagon down to the wall over and over again.

He continues to erode our national security. Anybody who isn't trying to remove him from power, anyone who isn't trying to control him or block him or stop him from endangering our national security is at fault here.

I mean, I'm tired of hearing our politicians talk about how they're outraged, how they're angry. they need to take action. What are they going to do to control the president that may have known that the Russians were paying to kill Americans and did nothing?

There's no lower point in his presidency at this point. And it can get worse. Every day that he is out of control more of our troops are in danger. More of our national security is at risk. And it's not just the American troops that are in danger here, Chris. It's every single American. Our people are sick. Our economy is shattered. Our military morale is down. And it's his fault. At one point is anyone going to hold him accountable?

CUOMO: What can the Democrats do that they have not done?

RIECKHOFF: You know, drop more articles of impeachment. Try to get him out of office. Try to jam him up. I don't know to be honest with you, Chris. I'm not an expert here. But they should do everything possible to ensure that no more American troops are killed because the Russians are putting bounties on them.

Drag Donald Trump and whatever legal peaceful way possible in front of the American people and make him answer to these questions. And not just him. Secretary of Defense Esper is mocked in the Pentagon at this point. They call him 'yesper', because everything that Donald Trump wants, Secretary of Defense Esper does.

When did he know? What did he know? Why didn't he do anything? I mean, how low does it have to go, Chris, before the American people wake up and understand. All our politicians have failed us and this guy is running our country into a ditch and our national security is at grave risk.

And it can get worse. If you think it can't get worse just remember, there are nukes. This guy has the capacity to fire nukes. That's how high the stakes are. They've never been higher, Chris, and I'm just shocked -- the only thing I'm shocked about is that more people aren't doing anything to try to -- to try to take some action to solve this problem.

CUOMO: How confident are you that the bounty story is true? We just had Spanberger on, she's like, you know, look, I don't know right now but I want to know more about it. Now we're hearing from the A.P. that Bolton briefed him about this in March of last year. I mean, could this be something that they know is out there but they've never proven?

RIECKHOFF: Maybe. But why doesn't the president shoot it down? Why doesn't he say he won't tolerate bounties? Why doesn't he say that this won't be acceptable? Why doesn't he say that there will be consequences for paying people to kill Americans?

I mean, this all smells bad. And it's on the backs of continued attacks from the Russians. People say the Russians meddled in our elections, Chris. They attacked our elections. Every day that Donald Trump is in power, every day the coronavirus kills more people. Every day our military goes down our enemies celebrate. Our enemies all around are world are celebrating every day that Donald Trump is a derelict commander in chief.

[22:39:57]

The stakes couldn't be any higher. And it's not just one thing, Chris. It's a continued pattern. We know who he is, we know what he's going to do. The question is how much damage can he do before November or let's say Biden wins. It could be January before Biden is in power. How much more damage could Donald trump do to our national security between now and then? It's terrifying.

CUOMO: You don't think that the presumption that he gets the military votes still stands true?

RIECKHOFF: No. I mean, it was three and a half years ago that he attacked john McCain. Right? I mean, the gold star family attacks were years ago. I mean, he dragged chairman of the joint chiefs Milley and secretary of defense out to the church for the crazy bible stunt.

I mean, and now he's pulling troops out of Germany. OK? He's pulling them out of Germany which only benefits Russia. About 10,000 troops are now being yanked out of Germany despite opposition from both parties. Day after day he continues to disrespect and demoralize our military. This is far beyond party. It's about patriotism first. Party is long past important.

CUOMO: The angry American is the podcast that P.J. does. The tag line is if you're not angry, you're not paying attention. P.J. Rieckhoff, I love you for your patriotism and your passion. Thank you for bringing it to us tonight.

RIECKHOFF: Love you back, man. It's never been more true than now.

CUOMO: Our special guest tonight. We got Chuck D. Now, I've been wondering the role that the artist would play in the social movement. They always have in this country. Music has often provided a metaphor for change. He's just added a new song to the conversation. Chuck D. here with what he wrote and why he wrote it. Next.

[22:45:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CUOMO: Music can move a message in this society. The 60s motivated by lyrics that had language of outrage and change. Where's the music to motivate this moment? Public enemy says right here. They have a new cut called State of the Union. STFU. Here's a taste.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

CUOMO: Public Enemy founder Chuck D is here. Chuck is one of the cleanest artists I've ever heard in the rap genre. But just in case, just in case you weren't paying attention. Mr. I am the law and you are not. In fact, I'm God, I got a lot. Mr. these united brakes, take over, come over. Orange hair fear the comb over. Here's another scare keep them hands in the air. Better not breathe, you dare not dare.

We talked about this, Chuck, about the need for music to enter this moment. What do you want for this song? Why did you take this on and put yourself in the ring once more?

CHUCK D, ARTIST & ACTIVIST: Chris, what's up, man? My tech is right tonight. What does your grandma say? Aye-yai-yai.

CUOMO: Aye-yai-yai.

CHUCK D: Aye-yai-yai. As a New Yorker, unfortunately, when New Yorkers when this guy comes out of the New York born in 1948. We've seen it a long time. I mean, this guy is not new to us. There is no animosity but you get four more years there's going to be some real animosity. We've seen this guy for such a long time pull his, you know, his shot game on people.

We're saying go back to your casinos, your buildings your fake reality shows. You know, go back to the USFL. You just don't need to be president. And forget November. Like earlier. Mr. Rieckhoff said, man, these are the most unpredictable days ahead. No one knows what's going to happen next week. And you want to talk about November.

So, coming after Paul Rieckhoff I echoed your last three guests, you know, highly because you have to be a fool not to see this ridiculousness going on right now. And the song answers to that. And the minute every time I used to see on social media or on the internet, SOTU, State of the Union. It wasn't just talking about Jake Tapper's show. I was talking about the President of the United States going making an announcement.

Immediately over the last four years, STFU popped up in my head. That's where the lyric came from. And the great D.J. premier help bring it to fruition. Music can speak for the masses and can spark change. It's not -- culture is not the change. But it can be a reminder to do actual things for real people. We can't look for that regular people in everyday people for being lesser than. They're greater than. We can make the change by illuminating that fact.

CUOMO: I couldn't agree more about the power of music especially your own. I am without qualification when I say I have no objectivity when it comes to public enemy or Chuck D. I grew up on the music. It helped shaped my understanding of social discourse and social unrest.

And I've always appreciated you for that. You know that. But I got to say, as powerful as these lyrics are --

CHUCK D: Yes.

CUOMO: -- you think that that there is any chance that the president steps away before November?

CHUCK D: You got to Nixonite him. I say nix him now. And n-i-x-h-i-m- n-o-w. I have to be old enough to remember that there was so much foolishness done by a president that he had to walk away. And they forced him to walk away.

[22:50:01]

It's like you created too much havoc and B.S. This guy has an effect. We just heard Paul Rieckhoff talk about internationally and amongst even people that go and work in the world -- in the U.S. services around world and then on tenuous, you know, threat right now. Locally, he's echoed harm. Nationally, he is a problem.

So, do I think he's going to walk away? You have to put -- keep your foot on the gas and say, dude, we're asking and telling you that you just got to go. No animosity. But if you stay in that seat, why would the other guy running for president, Joe Biden, says, listen. If he doesn't leave, I'm going to have to get the military to make him leave.

This is the most ridiculous conversation for the everyday citizen, living here in this country and around the world that there ever could be. That they are talking about like, you know, some cool or something going on. Everybody is unsure about what's going on.

CUOMO: I hear you.

CHUCK D: And you've got to be -- yes -- you got to be able to say, listen, guy is not playing by the rules, man. He's not playing by the rules, Chris. I mean, every day, you know, you're looking at something that lines up with the symbolic hatred that we feel every day.

As a people -- as a black person, if a president of the United States says I'm going to keep a losing side --

CUOMO: Right.

CHUCK D: -- as a statue in the city, and I'm going to arrest you for taking down the losing side, which is the confederacy, I got a problem with that. For years, we were able to, like, kind of, like, ignore the overt racism, all the subtle racism in symbols and statues.

But to tell you that symbols are powerful, Chris, anybody that says they're not powerful. Go put a Swastika in the middle of your forehead, and see the amount of conversations or stares that come back at you.

CUOMO: Right.

CHUCK D: That's something that we see every day in a statue, in a statement or in a gesture, or in a national conversation that's offensive.

CUOMO: I get it.

CHUCK D: The song that I wrote -- the song that I wrote, Chris, it has inappropriate language. But in context, it's appropriate for the dude that's been inappropriate as president.

CUOMO: And look, and --

(CROSSTALK)

CHUCK D: Simple as that. Music can make that change.

CUOMO: And that's a function of music. People can judge the power. They can -- it's out there for criticism. It's out there for social critique. You've always done that with your music. Here's your bigger problem.

(CROSSTALK)

CHUCK D: That's right. That's right.

CUOMO: He's your bigger problem.

CHUCK D: Yes.

CUOMO: I'm not worried about the vernacular.

CHUCK D: Right.

CUOMO: You have a movement in this country. But you have got a lot of young people. First, you know the black vote has to come out in a way it didn't in the last election. But you have a fractured left as well. You got people who are going to say Biden -- Biden passed that crime bill. Biden is old school. We need new school. Biden doesn't represent me and my interests. I don't like Trump.

CHUCK D: Hey.

CUOMO: I don't like Biden. I'm not going to vote.

CHUCK D: I feel you -- I feel you, Chris. Anybody that's running for president of the United States or any office over 70 years old is definitely not talking about any future. I believe a mandatory retirement age for government to be 65. And leadership should be 40 to 65. That's what I believe.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: But what do you say to the people who say they are going to sit this one out?

CHUCK D: Dude? Biden got to pick a black as his vice president. You better not make that position benign. That position cannot be benign anymore. So, yes, I'm waving my fist with Stacey Abrams or Kamala Harris or somebody that's going to do the job every day. And that's what Paul was talking about, man.

Tired of politicians as yapping, yapping, yapping. The young movement is a leaderless movement. You can't point to one person. That's why they're saying enough of that, and they're attacking their local. OG's like us can look at this guy and say I'm mad at this guy who is president who put out a bounty on Central Park Five.

But I can make those answers and culture in music. And this is a difference, Chris. If you got the whole world, right, and I travel around the whole world when I get a chance especially this crazy -- not this crazy time now. But the whole world is looking at this as a staged clown show. And half the country is looking at this as a stage clown show.

What does that tell you? That tells you, you should just quietly GTFOH, bro. But I can make these statements in music and music is something that's worldwide. It goes through the technology. And I tell people all the time. Beware of the old tricks in new ways.

So, they communicate through the phones but what if the grid goes down, all of a sudden before election day? Then you got young people that see through this. They see through this. And younger adults is who we got to instill confidence that they are the leaders and the leadership is there. Not in a bunch of (Inaudible) and soon-to-be octogenarians, man.

CUOMO: I got you.

CHUCK D: Because this doesn't work, bro.

CUOMO: Well, we'll see -- we'll see what they'll do. You're resonating the message as only you can. SOTU, State of the Union, STFU is the cut. One more line from it. Better rock that vote or vote for hell. Real generals now, not some USFL. Not an f-ing game. I dare not mention his name, operation 45, yes, it's the same thing. Sounds like Berlin burning, same thing.

[22:55:03]

History is a mystery if you all are not learning. End this clown show for a real estate bozo. Only you, Chuck D. Only you.

CHUCK D: I'm economical -- I'm economical with the words, man. I learned from all the best, man. Thank you for being on Mr. C.C. and in it.

CUOMO: Listen. Listen, you're always welcome. You can't learn from the best and not be one of the best. And you are that. And history will tell that story, and it's far from over for you. Thank you for making music that matters. Chuck D.

CHUCK D: And Chris, what did your grandma say?

CUOMO: Aye-yai-yai.

CHUCK D: How is grandma saying? Right. Right. Right. CUOMO: And she'd say, be more like your brother. I'll talk to you later. Be well. We'll be right back.

CHUCK D: All right. All right. Out.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CUOMO: Thank you for tonight's episode of twice as nice. Being with us for two hours.

[23:00:00]

"CNN TONIGHT" with Laura Coates, the upgrade, in for D. Lemon starts right now.

LAURA COATES, CNN HOST: Man, Chris. Just when I thought you couldn't get any cooler.