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Trump Denigrated Female World Leaders; PPP Stimulus Ends Today; Protesters Clash with Police in New York; Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired June 30, 2020 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[08:30:00]

CARL BERNSTEIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: The president of the United States aggressively attacked her and that they had to isolate the -- in the records of the calls so it would not become well-known because they did not want this to become so well-known either. The extent of the president's aggression and cruelty toward Angela Merkel and those conversations in which she handled them very well, like water on a duck's back according to the sources

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Carl, in the beginning --

BERNSTEIN: It's not women. We can talk about it in a minute.

BERMAN: Carl, in the beginning of our discussion, you pointed to the fact that the people raising these concerns are important. Bolton, Mattis, Tillerson, Kelly, and the list goes on. To an extent -- John Bolton wrote a book on it and is doing interviews to anyone who will listen right now -- some of these people are coming out publicly and saying they don't feel the president is fit to serve.

But to what extent do you think that they will raise their voices even louder? How far are they willing to go? How much are they willing to say publically and on the record before the election?

BERNSTEIN: I'm not able to say because what we've seen so far from those people, they've been almost craven through three years of the Trump presidency in talking about what they knew publicly. Had they spoken out earlier in addition to just talking to reporters off the record and to their colleagues, we might not be in this situation we're in right now with the president of the United States whom they all, and many others in the national security and the intelligence bureaucracies, all the way up to near the top, believe that the president of the United States is unfit for office.

But that's what we have. That's what this story is about. It is about consensus of foreign policy and intelligence advisers to the president concluding that he is unfit as evidenced by the way he dealt with the most important foreign leaders in the world, including our allies who he berated, derided, repeatedly, very personal terms, scolded as if they were schoolchildren, was sadistic in the words of one of the sources, and then again in our -- case of our adversaries, approached these strongmen with great respect, honor. And also there too gave them concessions that have his closest security aides concerned that the United States has been weakened, as has the western alliance.

BERMAN: Carl Bernstein, it is an extraordinary report. Everyone can find it on cnn.com. I commend everyone to go read it as soon as possible because there are a huge number of details there. We're only scratched the surface.

So, Carl, thanks very much for being with us. I appreciate it.

BERNSTEIN: Good to be you.

BERMAN: Small businesses have just hours left to apply for federal loans under the Paycheck Protection Program. So was it a success or failure?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICHARD FIERRO, OWNER, ATREVIDA BEER COMPANY: It didn't solve the problems. What it did was sustain us for a few more months.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: More on the program and the unused money left over. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:37:01]

BERMAN: All right, it's a huge day for many small businesses across the country. Today is the final day to get the application in for federal money, the PPP, Paycheck Protection money, that for some small business had meant staying afloat.

Is there a future for this program? One man knows.

CNN's Phil Mattingly.

Phil, you've been doing terrific reporting on this. Joining us now live from Capitol Hill. What's the latest?

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, John, I think the answer is, there needs to be a future, right, for small businesses, including those who are able to tap into that $600 billion Paycheck Protection Program. The reality is, the depth of the economic crisis, the spikes you're seeing around the country as Covid continues to be persuasive mean that more needs to be done, and fast.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JESSICA FIERRO, OWNER, ATREVIDA BEER COMPANY: The shutting doors is the very definition of losing your livelihood for a lot of small businesses.

MATTINGLY (voice over): What happens when hundreds of billions of federal dollars simply isn't enough? RICHARD FIERRO, OWNER, ATREVIDA BEER COMPANY: And we're worried. We

sell stuff $6 at a time. So it's not like we're, you know, Apple selling, you know, a computer at $2,000 a pop. We're not that business.

MATTINGLY: It's the wrenching question small business owners like Jess and Rich Fierro of Atrevida Beer Company are grappling with as the cornerstone of the small business federal lifeline, the Paycheck Protection Program, comes to an end today.

J. FIERRO: It's such a fluid situation that no one really knows when it's going to start to kind of die down and then we do start to die down and then it starts to peek right back up.

MATTINGLY: The Fierro's run the first female Latino owned brewery in Colorado. And between their inventive, socially conscious beers --

J. FIERRO: I would love to see more of a Latin influence, you know, in the craft beer industry. We are no strangers to partying. We are no strangers to drinking.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Yes.

R. FIERRO: we're going to lift some things. I'm going to show you the (INAUDIBLE).

MATTINGLY: And they're equally ingenious FaceBook content, they quickly made a name for themselves in Colorado Springs. Then, the pandemic hit in March.

J. FIERRO: We're a family business.

MATTINGLY: And it changed everything.

J. FIERRO: You know, we're both owners. I'm the head brewer. My husband's there 90 percent of the time. My daughter works for (INAUDIBLE) as well. So it's -- it's scary.

MATTINGLY: They received a PPP loan. And it helped. But it could only go so far.

R. FIERRO: It didn't solve the problems. What it did was sustain us for a few more months.

MATTINGLY: The program is credited by government officials for saving millions of jobs. With more than 4.8 million small business owners tapping into the funds for more than $519 billion in loans. But the lawmakers who created the program acknowledge the scale of the pandemic driven downturn simply wasn't expected. And even with the federal assistance, the hit has been devastating.

Between February and May, companies with fewer than 500 employees lost 11.6 million jobs, or 18.4 percent of their workforce. The structure of the program between the period the money needed to be used to the inability to ask for a second loan has left shuttered restaurants in particularly dire straits. [08:40:06]

R. FIERRO: We drive to work with that -- that notion of, let's be positive today, let's do it, but we are slowly seeing, you know, front awnings come down.

MATTINGLY: And the problems the program encountered from a rocky rollout and constantly shifting rules, to strict limits on how funds could be used, chilled its effectiveness in recent weeks. In fact, the program will shut down on Tuesday with more than $134 billion funds untapped. Lawmakers have committed to redeploying those unused funds soon in the next round of stimulus, but soon may not be enough for some small businesses.

R. FIERRO: There's a lot of hard work being done by folks that are not asking for handouts, that are not running around asking for anybody to solve their problems. What we're looking for is the opportunity to continue to fight to get to where we want to be.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BERMAN: So, Phil, I know it's not the most important question, but I would like you to send me some of their beer.

Look, I personally know maybe a half dozen people who run businesses or organizations that have been saved or at least sustained by PPP.

MATTINGLY: Yes.

BERMAN: It's made a huge, huge difference. What is Congress going to do? What do you think will happen the next month?

MATTINGLY: You know, the interesting thing is, if there's anything where there's actual bipartisan agreement, it's on more money for small businesses. I think the structure is still an open question. How they utilize that $134 billion that's left over is still an open question.

But one of the interesting elements here is when you talk to senators and House members, they are getting hammered by small businesses in their community regularly. They seem to grasp the scale of this program. In fact, the Fierro's themselves have had a role in one of the bipartisan proposals up here on Capitol Hill. They went to a town hall with their senator, Michael Bennet. Michael Bennet now has a bipartisan proposal based on some of their recommendations that would kind of expand the scale and scope of how people would get loans.

I think the big issue right now, John, is, is there a sense of urgency here on Capitol Hill. Yes, they grasp it. Yes, they understand it. But they aren't moving to actually reconcile the next stimulus proposal at any point before the next couple of weeks. And weeks, as you know as well as anybody, matter when you're a small business. Weeks are the definition of whether you remain open or you close for good, John.

BERMAN: Very quickly, the hundred million dollars that's -- billion dollars left over, not an indication that it wasn't needed, just an indication it might have been too hard to get their hands on?

MATTINGLY: It's a combination of a lot of different things. The shifting rules. We kind of addressed it in the piece a little bit. I think the reality is, for the 4.5 million business owners that were able to tap into it, this was crucial and hugely important. But there's a recognition that changes need to be made, not just because of PPP not being effective enough, but just because this is much deeper of an economic crisis than I think anybody expected when it was drafted. Lawmakers recognize that. How they try and reconcile that, I think, remains an open question.

BERMAN: All right, a terrific, important report. Phil Mattingly, thanks so much for being with us this morning.

So violent crime in major U.S. cities is increasing as police budgets are shrinking and calls grow to defund the police altogether. A man who's led two big city police departments joins us next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:47:14]

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: Breaking news, protesters clashing with police outside of New York's -- New York's city hall. This comes ahead of a vote today on the mayor's proposal to cut $1 billion from the NYPD's budget.

CNN's Brynn Gingras is live in lower Manhattan for us this morning with more.

Brynn, good morning.

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Erica, good morning to you.

Yes, we've heard the rallying cries across the country to defund the police. Well, as I get out of the way, you can see here in New York, those protests in the street have now turned into an outright encampment in front of city hall where you said they clashed with police just this morning. Well, this group is demanding that at least a $1 billion cut be from the NYPD's $6 billion budget and soon they may know the results of their efforts as this city needs to vote on a budget today.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Defund the police!

CROWD: Defund the police!

GINGRAS (voice over): The demand echoing across the country.

CROWD: Defund the police!

GINGRAS: Through voices, signs and murals and, in some U.S. cities, the call to defund the police is happening with swift momentum. From Seattle --

MAYOR JENNY DURKAN (D), SEATTLE: We are going to focus our greatest efforts on re-imagining policing itself.

GINGRAS: To Baltimore --

MICHAEL HARRISON, BALTIMORE POLICE COMMISSIONER: This round of cuts that came with these hearings have demonstrated the will of the people.

GINGRAS: To Philadelphia.

DARRELL CLARKE, PHILADELPHIA COUNCIL PRESIDENT: We move money from the police department, some money, which, frankly speaking, should never have been in the police department.

GINGRAS: According to Local Progress, an organization formed by local elected officials to focus on racial and economic justice, leaders in at least 19 cities or municipalities are calling for cuts to police budgets or to reallocate funds in the millions. In New York City, the NYPD may lose $1 billion. A budget plan put forward by the mayor would redistribute the department's revenues in part to the city's youth.

MAYOR BILL DE BLASIO (D), NEW YORK CITY, NY: We want to shift resources more and more into young people in particular, into youth centers. We want to shift resources more and more into public housing.

GINGRAS: The mayor insists the proposed cuts aren't punitive. The NYPD brass acknowledges there's room for savings, but says they can't afford fewer officers on the streets.

FAUSTO PICHARDO, NYPD CHIEF OF PATROL: The number one thing that our community members from every part of the city that I work in wanted was more police officers.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Defund!

CROWD: MPD.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Defund!

CROWD: MPD.

GINGRAS: In Minneapolis, defunding may turn into dismantling. In the wake of calls for change following the murder of George Floyd, the city council officially moved to replace the police force with the Department of Community Safety and Violence Prevention. It still needs to be approved by voters.

LISA BENDER, MINNEAPOLIS CITY COUNCILWOMAN: Our commitment is to end our city's toxic relationship with the Minneapolis Police Department, to end policing as we know it.

MARIA HABERFELD, PROFESSOR, JOHN JAY COLLEGE OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE: The only consequences that I'm seeing in defunding is an immediate spike in violent crime around the country.

[08:50:04]

GINGRAS: Maria Haberfeld, a New York professor of police science, says, drastic cuts, specifically to the department's personnel, could be catastrophic.

HABERFELD: Defunding police departments doesn't take into consideration the fact that there's crime out there, real crime, violent crime, shootings, rapes, breaking and entering. This types of crimes are not going to be handled by social workers, are not to be handled by other professionals.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GINGRAS: And there are a number of cities all across the country whose new fiscal years begin tomorrow. So we really could see the slashing of police budgets in many areas. Keep in mind, John, that there are cities, like New York, who are dealing with a serious budget deficit caused by the coronavirus and also this national reckoning for police reform.

John.

BERMAN: Absolutely. Brynn Gingras, terrific report. Thanks so much.

Joining me now is CNN law enforcement analyst Charles Ramsey. He's the former police chief in Washington, D.C., and Philadelphia.

Thanks so much for being with us.

Look, as these discussions take place to reduce funding for police, we are seeing in this summer already a rise in certain violent crimes. Here in New York City alone, the number of shootings this year, 503, compared to 350 last year. Now, look, there could be a number of causes here. It could be cabin fever from the pandemic. It could just be the warmer weather. It could be the social unrest.

Is there a way to identify how connected the rise in violence is to the calls to defund?

CHARLES RAMSEY, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, I mean, there is a way of finding out, but it may be too soon to really do that analysis at this point in time.

I think what people need to realize with defunding the police, and I can't speak to the NYPD because I've never seen their operating budget. But from the three departments I've worked in, 90 to 96 percent of the budget is about personnel costs, pensions, benefits, salaries, things like that. There's no way you can -- significantly cut budgets without impacting personnel.

During the recession in '09, for example, Mayor Nutter and I decided that we wouldn't lay off policemen, but we wouldn't hire any new police officers. So we allowed attrition to take its toll. It takes a long time to recover from that. And at a time when you've

got rising crime rates, not just New York, Philadelphia right now is -- is -- is pushing 200 murders for the first of July. I mean Milwaukee is up. L.A. is up. I don't know if there's a relationship at this point in time, but it's very, very important that we keep our eye on the ball here and not let crime get out of control.

It's also important that if money is going to be taken, where is it going to go, because cities are facing tremendous deficits right now. If it's going to go to social services, follow the money. Make sure that's where it goes. My fear is, the money will be taken from police, but the responsibility for responding to those calls for service that people are talking about now will not go away.

BERMAN: In New York City -- and, again, I know you say you didn't work in New York, but we're seeing it play out over this 24 hour period, which is why I'm focusing on it, $1 billion budget cut, a big chunk of it, will be from canceling the hiring of new officers, which you talk about right there, about 1,600 new officers. And then they're going to shift some of the spending for school officers from the police department to education spending. It's a little bit of just shifting the funding there.

What do you make of that?

RAMSEY: Well, I mean, they're doing that in Philadelphia too. There was a $33 million cut, I believe, from the Philadelphia budget, but a good chunk of that was moving crossing guards and public safety officers over to the managing director's budget instead. So, I mean, the little smoke and mirrors there in terms of, you know, the announcement of the initial cut and where the money's actually going. But that's fine. As long as those responsibilities go with the money.

My concern is that, you know, the money will go but the response to those calls for service and one of your guests earlier had mentioned, you know, robbery, rape, murder, social workers aren't going to handle that. And a lot of the calls we respond to, whether it's a person in mental health cases or what have you, there can be danger there. And so we may not be the lead, but we certainly need to be able to respond.

So people need to sit down and carefully think about this, if cuts are necessary, which is fine, but make sure that those cuts make sense and do not put public safety in jeopardy.

BERMAN: What about the responsibility of current police officers, because we are seeing this rise in retirements, 272 New York police officers filed for retirement in just that one-month period. You know, I think the feeling among some people is they just said we've had enough.

RAMSEY: Well, you know, I used to track my rate of attrition on a regular basis. You can expect "x" number of retirements per month. But then when you start going over and above that, that's when you start to get concerned. This is the time when it's tough to be a cop right now. And so, yes, I'm not surprised there's an increase in retirements.

[08:55:03]

But, again, you couple that with defunding, where you can't hire new people. Now, you're going to atrit (ph) at a much higher rate than you would have normally had happen, which also is going to have an impact on your ability to deploy resources where they're needed and so forth. So there's a lot of moving parts to this that have to be taken in consideration. I know Commissioner Shea disbanded his anti-crime unit. A lot of departments are making adjustments now in order to be able to keep their patrol force up to strength.

BERMAN: Yes, it is a very complicated issue with budget constraints, not to mention the need -- very real need for reforms in the face of everything else that's happening right now.

RAMSEY: Right.

BERMAN: Charles Ramsey, always a pleasure. Thanks so much for being with us and helping us understand it.

RAMSEY: Thank you.

BERMAN: All right, a lot going on this morning, needless to say, as the number of states facing the coronavirus pandemic with increases in cases continues to go up. Our coverage continues next.

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