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Cuomo Prime Time

Trump: Get Schools Open... Stop "Political Nonsense"; Dr. Fauci: "Divisiveness" Hampering COVID-19 Fight; SCOTUS: NY Prosecutor Can Subpoena Trump Financial Docs. Aired 9-10p ET

Aired July 09, 2020 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


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CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST, CUOMO PRIME TIME: Hello. I am Chris Cuomo and welcome to PRIME TIME.

Today was another day that this President failed to take charge of the pandemic. And we have to track it every day because every day costs lives. Just today, cases of sick Americans in California, Florida, Texas, all broke their daily Coronavirus death counts again.

And yet, the biggest concern in the country right now is Arizona. It's leading America in new cases. ICU beds are running dangerously low there. This is no secret. And yet, there has been no offer of help from the Federal government. Why not?

More than two dozen other states are facing similar reopening resurgences, and there is still no plan to help them. The only plan is the President's plan to spread false claims of victory.

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DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: What we do have is we have perhaps the lowest, but among the lowest, but perhaps the lowest mortality rate, death rate, anywhere in the world.

We did it right.

We shut it down.

Now it's time to get back to work.

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CUOMO: Shut it down? How can anybody believe that brand of dishonesty? It's making us sick, literally and figuratively.

One question destroys the entire figment of his imagination. If the rise is just about us testing so much, why are hospitalizations spiking? Debate over! But it's not about a debate. It's about a deception. The truth is we are at great, great risk.

It's not about what I think. This is coming from America's top expert.

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DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: When you compare us to other countries, I don't think you can say we're doing great. I mean, we're just not.

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CUOMO: But for Trump, it's not about the truth, and it sure as heck is not about the health of you and your kids. It is and has always been about only his political health. And so, he is doubling down on forcing things despite the risk of more cases.

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TRUMP: We have to get our schools open and stop this political nonsense. And it's only political nonsense. It's politics. They don't want to open because they think it will help them on November 3rd. I think it's going to hurt them on November 3rd. Open your schools.

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CUOMO: Help them open the schools. What is your plan to help them? What will you do to help them? That's your job. Do your job.

Are all the facts of cases and hospitalizations and deaths and states going backwards from following his "Open up, ready or not," dictate nonsense, is that all nonsense? Is that politics? Or is what he is doing politics?

Now, the good news, the CDC says it's not going to change its rules for reopening guidelines. In fact, experts were already questioning whether the current CDC guidelines were too lenient.

The President is complaining about them because he wants no rules, just like his life. Now, the White House says "The costs are too high to keep schools shut down."

Nobody wants them shut down. Help figure out how to open them up.

The cost to what is too high? Your ability, to tell people, that you made things great, when you're actively doing the opposite? How about the human cost to reopening them the wrong way? To my kids? To people's kids? To their lives?

Look, Dr. Fauci isn't wrong. We're all paying the price with this toxic partisanship.

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FAUCI: You'd have to make the assumption that if there wasn't such divisiveness, that we would have a more coordinated approach.

(END VIDEO CLIP) CUOMO: Now look, Fauci is in a tough spot, they all are, because to tell the truth is to lose your position to help the rest of us. That's the reality. Every time he says something that isn't lockstep with Trump, where does he go? Gone.

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Look, there is toxic partisanship. But be honest. Trump is motivating this. He did it with the reopening. He did it with the testing. He did it with the PPE. And he's doing it with schools.

We're likely to pay even more this fall, if we don't need - do what we need to do right now. So, what can we do? What should we do? Let's turn to another top Infectious Disease Expert, friend of show, Dr. William Schaffner.

Good to have you as always, Doc.

DR. WILLIAM SCHAFFNER, PROFESSOR, VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY MEDICAL CENTER, CDC ADVISER, INFECTIOUS DISEASE EXPERT: Hi, Chris. Good to be with you.

CUOMO: Practical effect of the mixed messaging?

The experts saying, "Go slow. Wear the mask. Socially distance. Wash your hands. Don't reopen if you're not right. Back up, if you're doing it wrong," and Trump saying, "That's all politics. Open up ready or not. We got to get back. We're on top of it now," what's the net effect?

SCHAFFNER: Well, the net effect is confusion, of course. And people, in their confusion, really don't know what to do.

And we have this crazy quilt of recommendations and ordinances and other circumstances, around the country, so that it's so different. We really need national authority, good - good modeling from the top, and everybody kind of doing the same thing.

There's too much virus out there. It's spreading in essentially every State, some more than others. But we haven't controlled this at all. The virus is still ahead of us, and we are rushing to catch up.

As you know, I think, we squandered the time where we were locked up. We should have done much more and prepared everyone to the - to the effect that the new normal will require all of us to participate in, exactly as you said, wearing the mask, six-foot distancing, going about things cautiously, not going into large groups.

If we do the opposite, the virus will spread even further.

CUOMO: Now, I know you believe that the President's proposition that the only reason we have so many cases is because we test so much more than everybody else.

Well, you know, you gave me the hospitalization rate as a metric, early on, to cut through all that BS. Forget about the case - the cases from testing. If there are more people in the hospital, you've got more sick people. Period! That debate is over. In fact, it really isn't a debate.

But when you look at what is happening now, in the big states, and in Arizona, have you ever seen anything like this, in this country, where the Federal government was as absent, and during an emergency, and they declared it an emergency, as they are in Arizona and these other states?

SCHAFFNER: No, of course, I haven't seen anything like that. And the vacuum at the top is being felt down below, as each of the states tries to fashion its own recommendations, and its own approach, to try to do things rather than working together.

You know, I've talked about orchestras with all their different instruments. If they're all playing separately, you get dissonance. If you have a leading Conductor, then you get good music.

What we need is a coordinated, national plan. I don't think it's going to happen frankly.

CUOMO: Me either.

SCHAFFNER: I think we are all muddling through, struggling, each in our own way.

CUOMO: I mean that's why I call it out every day because I think that it would fundamentally change our fate. And the only reason not to do it is bad reason.

I mean, you know, you came up with the music metaphor. I added Captain Cacophony to it. Still doesn't meet your "Interdependence Day." That was one of the best things I've ever heard related, in terms of messaging, in this moment. And it resonated all over the country, Doctor. I got to thank you for that.

Let me ask you something else. One more reason to stop the spread is not only do you not want to get sick, not only can it stink when you're sick, God forbid, can it be worse, and you can go to the hospital, or maybe even die.

But even if you're one of the lucky ones, and you make it through, after being sick, Dr. Fauci started talking today about what he is calling long-term fatigue syndrome.

More and more mounting anecdotes of "I've got brain fog. It's not going away. I have malaise. I can't sleep. But I'm always tired." And there are these common combinations.

Are you seeing this as well, and how serious is it, in your opinion?

SCHAFFNER: We're just starting to define these problems. And it's clear that there are long-term effects, just as you described.

And some people who've had serious lung disease, we are afraid, are left with some scarring in their lungs from which they will never recover. So, the acute problem is bad enough. But long-term effects, we'll also have to contend with.

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And there were people who were kind of on the edge of frailty, particularly older people, they may never come back to the same vigor, that they had, the same level of day-to-day competence that they had before they got COVID, and they will start the slide into disability.

So, all of those things, we have yet to define. But we know they're happening because we're seeing it around us.

CUOMO: The key is the "We." Socially distance. Wash your hands. Wear a mask. The power is within us, to make the change, even if we're not getting help, from above, on the Federal government.

Dr. William Schaffner, can always count on you. Be well.

SCHAFFNER: Yourself, too. Bye-bye.

CUOMO: All right, so Joe Biden says he has a plan to make things better, and he'd be doing things differently, right now, if he were President.

We have someone, who could be in the running, to go on that Biden ticket, here, to comment on the way forward, his new economic plan, and the state of the crisis that is upon us.

You see her there, Senator Elizabeth Warren, next.

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CUOMO: Today, former VP Joe Biden unveiled the first major piece of a proposed economic agenda, using government purchasing power to spur manufacturing, here in the U.S. The plan focuses on sectors like clean energy, infrastructure, and healthcare.

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It echo - it echoes the likes of proposals put forth by former Democratic presidential contenders, like Senator Elizabeth Warren. So, what does the Senator from Massachusetts who has just joined teams with Biden think of the plan? The Senator joins us now.

It's good to see you. You're looking well. The best to you, and your family, during this time.

SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA): Thank you very much.

You know, I'm just so glad to be here, and so glad to see what it is that Biden rolled out today. I mean, it's really terrific, because here's how I see what's going on right now.

Donald Trump is going to spin this election, trying to fool people into thinking that the economy isn't collapsing around us, because of his failure to lead during this public health crisis. But it is.

And Joe Biden wants to build the economy back better than before. Instead of just patching over the cracks, he wants to make this economy work for the whole country. He's got a real plan to take it forward.

And one of the best parts is exactly where you started this, Chris.

It's that he wants to use the power of government procurement, the fact that the government buys so much stuff, from steel that goes into battle ships, all the way to toilet paper that goes into Federal office buildings, and to say he is going to use that power, affirmatively, he's going to use it to help build a greener economy and green jobs.

He is going to use it in order to restore manufacturing here in the United States, "Buy American," he is going to use it to strengthen unions, and he is going to make a $300 billion investment in innovation, here in America.

So, it's about jobs right now, and it's about jobs for decades to come.

CUOMO: It is reminiscent of what you were putting out on a - on a smaller scale. Did you help the team with this?

WARREN: Look, I'm glad to talk to anyone about it. And Biden's team is a smart economic team. We've had a lot of back and forth.

But understand. These are the plans that the Vice President has embraced because it's his vision. He doesn't just want to build the old economy. He wants to build the next economy. That's why his core phrase here is "Build it back better. Build back better."

And he wants to do this, for communities of color, for women, for small businesses, to make sure that it's an economy that works not just on the two coasts, but an economy that works all across this country. It's a bold vision.

CUOMO: How sensitive is the plan to - well plans aren't sensitive, but the argument to defend the plan, how sensitive will it be in terms of it costing too much?

WARREN: Well--

CUOMO: You know that the President's counter is going to be "I didn't need to spend all this money to get us back. We were doing great before this pandemic that the Democrats blew out of proportion."

WARREN: You know, there are kind of two parts to this.

The first one is to remind everyone that Trump just spent $1.5 trillion in giveaways to billionaires, millionaires, and giant corporations. I mean, it's all there for the rich people. And what did the Republicans say about that? "Not a problem at all."

But the second part is to remember something like procurement. We're already spending that money. We're buying steel. We're buying toilet paper.

The difference is that the Vice President is saying, "You want to sell toilet paper to the United States of America," and frankly, that's a big contract, "You want to do that? You got to go green. You want to do that? You got to pay your workers a living wage.

You want to do that? You've got to give small businesses a chance. You want to do that? You've got to hire American workers. We're going to do this right here in the United States."

He's got the idea "You build an economy from the grassroots up."

CUOMO: I've argued, on the show before, when we were measuring the field, that you were the best political athlete that the Democrats had, on this side of the ball, to use that metaphor.

Do you think Joe Biden can pick an Elizabeth Warren or do you think he has to pick a woman and a woman of color?

WARREN: Oh, look, the decision on Vice President is up to Joe Biden.

And no matter who he chooses, I am a 100 percent behind the ticket. And I'm going to work my heart out, to get it done, to get Joe Biden into the White House, to get a Democratic Senate, and a Democratic House, to help us in the State Houses and the State Legislatures.

There is so much we need to do, and I am all-in to help in any way I can.

CUOMO: So, you would accept the role if you were asked?

WARREN: I am all-in to do whatever I can do to help. The decision is the Vice President's.

CUOMO: You a little worried about the scrutiny on the decision from the perspective of winning the election? You know, what's the fear in the Democratic Party that you guys will--

WARREN: Look--

CUOMO: --splinter yourselves with checking boxes and purity tests.

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If Joe Biden were to not pick a woman, by all indications, he says he would, but if he picked a man, or if he picks a woman, who is not Black, do you think that there's going to be unrest in the Party, and you're not going to get the turnout you need to win?

WARREN: Look, like I said, the decision is up to him.

But let's be clear what a big part of this election is going to be about. It's Donald Trump's failures. Donald Trump is a failed President before we hit the Coronavirus crisis.

And look what he's shown us, in the last five months. This is a man who is just totally overmatched, who simply cannot manage. And we see people getting sick and dying, every single day, because he is so incompetent.

And here is the thing. He is not just incompetent. He actually seems to have no human empathy.

He has - he has no - he has given no indication that he cares, about the tens of thousands of people, across this country, who have died. He has no plan. He has no plan for testing. He has no plan for our economy. And he has no plan.

We have nurses today, I spoke with nurses, this morning, who can't get personal protective equipment. Five months into this crisis?

CUOMO: We hear it all the time, Senator.

WARREN: And we are still struggling for masks?

CUOMO: Yes. We hear it.

WARREN: So--

CUOMO: And we're going to - we're going to struggle again in the fall--

WARREN: I think that's exactly right.

CUOMO: --when the need goes up again. And you talk about procurement. That would be a great place to start.

Let me get your legal acumen on the decisions today. Look, you can see them different ways, but there is going to be a delay no matter what.

They're being played in the media, at least with the taxes, that the President can't block the taxes, as if there is a win in that, but you guys won't be able to get them during the duration of this campaign, either.

So is it a win or is it a nothing?

WARREN: You know, there is an old saying, "Justice delayed is justice denied." The idea that you don't just need the right outcome, you need it--

CUOMO: Now. WARREN: --now.

CUOMO: Yes.

WARREN: And that's the problem we've got around being able to see Donald Trump's taxes. So look, I think that there is a good chance he'll be able to hold off, hold off, hold off, until after November 3rd, on revealing his taxes.

But boy, that should be a message, loud and clear, in big flashing neon lights that Donald Trump has got a lot to hide. He is trying to cover up for his own corruption and for his corrupt government.

And, once again, that's where you see the kind of comparison.

Joe Biden is a man who's put his taxes out there for everyone to see. He is also a man, who wanted to have an Inspector General oversee the work he did in the last bail-out with the Obama/Biden Administration. Donald Trump, exactly in the opposite direction.

I'm telling you, the contrasts in 2020 could not be clearer. And that's why I'm in this fight all the way for Joe Biden.

CUOMO: Senator Warren, thank you very much, the best of health to you and the family.

WARREN: Thank you, same to you.

CUOMO: All right.

If the President thinks that "Black Lives Matter" is a "Symbol of Hate," he is not going to like what just landed on his doorstep today, no, not his current home, in Washington. But we'll show it to you.

But, more importantly, we'll talk about his reaction, next.

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CUOMO: Powerful message being sent to the President, today, and it's sitting right outside his prized Fifth Avenue Tower in Manhattan, "Black Lives Matter." The City painted this large mural right in front of the Trump Organization's headquarters today, led by Mayor Bill de Blasio.

It's the second time the words have appeared in large letters outside one of Trump's current homes. You may recall D.C.'s Mayor first had "Black Lives Matter" painted across two blocks near the White House last month.

The President has called the New York City project a "Symbol of hate," saying it would denigrate the luxury Avenue.

Remember that the next time that he says he cares about the situation of Black Americans. You're never going to hear him say that there is systemic racism, or at least you haven't. But the idea that he sees "Black Lives Matter" as opposition to the MAGA-slogan, what does that tell you?

He even suggested that police officers could block the work. Now, is that an unfathomable response? Not from him, in light of all we've seen. The mass protests, the nationwide reckoning, the cries of parents, like this man, on Fifth Avenue today, who lost his son, years ago, in a police-related shooting.

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MIKE TUCKER, SON KILLED IN POLICE SHOOTING: To all of the parents that lost their children to the hands of NYPD, or any police agency, this is for you.

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CUOMO: The pain and the hurt is what has to be heard. It's not about politics. It's not about us and them. Just about us, and what we decide to be together.

Now on the COVID front, we were in that battle together also, and the battle is not going well. Things are bad at hospitals in Arizona, when we last spoke with this ICU nurse in April.

Remember her? She went out and stood up to protesters, silently. She started a fund to help Native Americans in Arizona. Remember? That's how we were introduced to her. But she wasn't just one moment. She is still there doing the job.

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So, we went back to Nurse Leander, in Arizona, which has now become an epicenter. I want to follow-up with our frontline hero. I want to know what Lauren's life is like. I want to know what she is seeing. I want to know what her reaction and her co-workers' are to what they're getting from our leadership, next.

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CUOMO: Arizona is grieving, more than 2,000 Coronavirus deaths. That milestone announced today. State, now, at the epicenter of the pandemic in America, after reopening in mid-May. Not doing the right things early, reopening too fast, responding too slow, and now, that's where they are.

The Governor announced today he is limiting indoor restaurant dining to 50 percent capacity. That's something. But it's not enough. Arizona is running out of ICU beds. Several top mayors say they don't have enough tests.

[21:35:00]

You saw how bad things were, back in April, when we spoke to an ICU nurse, who stood up to mask-less protesters whining about staying home. Things are far more dire now. Her name is Lauren Leander, and she's back tonight with an update from the frontlines.

Good to see you, Nurse Leander.

LAUREN LEANDER, ICU NURSE: Hi, Chris. How are you?

CUOMO: I am doing better than I deserve.

So, have you seen a palpable change, recently, in the state of play with cases, hospitalizations, and types of cases?

LEANDER: We have. You know, after Memorial Day weekend, we really felt things start to ramp up. And now, we're kind of at the point where we are stretched so thin, we're at the point of compromising patient safety.

You know, we're working with ventilators left, with single-digits of ventilators left. We have triple patient assignments now. We have three COVID ICUs that are completely full.

And, on top of that, we have COVID patients holding - critical care patients holding in the E.R. and other units waiting for a bed. You know, things have definitely taken a bad turn since our State reopened here.

CUOMO: Ages of patients, types of cases, things that you have to deal with, anything new?

LEANDER: You know, I think what's been new for us is to now see kind of the long-term effects of this virus on the patients that came in. You know, I spoke about the patient zero, back in April, the female patient, who was my age that I performed CPR on, and zipped into a body bag, at the end of my shift. We now have entire units that are full of patients just like her that

are young and really have no comorbidities and they're breaking a lot of the stereotypes that we thought this virus was going to play by the rules.

And so, now we're also kind of seeing what this virus looks like after somebody has been fighting for their life for three months. And, I think, it's something that people need to know that these patients aren't getting better.

The same patients I've spoken about are still in my ICU. And they're at the point now, where the virus has turned their lungs to scar tissue, essentially. They're now stuck on a breathing machine with a permanent breathing tube and a permanent feeding tube. They are bed- bound. And they're completely malnourished.

And, you know, at this point, Chris, like if you were to ask an ICU nurse, that is a fate worse than death, and it is something that we are tired of seeing.

CUOMO: Now, the idea of how it gets better, are you surprised that there are, you know - you know, we saw, in Texas, that they're sending some military personnel there. There are some NGO types that are giving personnel to some hospitals in Arizona.

But there is no massive Federal response that might be expected, you know, military personnel, and kind of finding different healthcare providers to help. Are you surprised by that? Are people talking about that in the ranks of the need for that?

LEANDER: I am surprised. You know, it's something that we hope that if we were in the shape of, you know, how - where New York was and where New Jersey is that we would get the same help that these other states are getting.

But I think it's also important that we know that the - we have power in our own hands. Well there is power in the people of Arizona, to mask up, to stay home, and to follow the protocols that we saw work before.

And if we can get people back on the same page, somehow, you know, this can still be an opportunity to save lives. We can still turn this thing around.

CUOMO: How much more can you take in the hospitals, in terms of capacity, in terms of shift flow? You know, what can you handle?

LEANDER: I mean, this is it, Chris. I don't really know what it's going to look like aside from this. You know, we're at the point where we're deciding which patients are going to get certain equipment.

We have single-digit ventilators left. We're deciding which patients get continuous dialysis machines, and which do not. A lot of these overflow units don't have the same safety capabilities as other fully- functioning ICUs.

I don't know what it looks like, Chris, but it's not good.

CUOMO: I've become a fan of yours, as you know. We've stayed in touch on and off.

I love what you did with your co-workers, not just to stand up to protesters, but to start a fund to help the Native American communities, who are hit harder than any State really, right, even by the numbers metrics they ranked in the top two or three, if they were states.

But what is it like for you and your colleagues? You gave us some pictures of what you look like during and after a shift that they could put up while you're describing it. But the heads, the hearts, you know, we see your faces get banged up from the masks, but what's going on inside with all these cases and your fears about more?

LEANDER: You know, Chris, I think what we've been feeling is we feel a little forgotten.

I think, after the State reopened, after Memorial Day weekend hit, and people went back to normal, you know, we saw a very palpable shift in people's faces, and people's, you know, belief about what's going on or how serious this really is.

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And so, to feel forgotten, at a time, when our cases are the highest we've ever seen, and our ICUs are literally overflowing, you know, it hurts. It hurts to feel forgotten by your own State and the people who were fighting for you when this thing, you know, first came about.

CUOMO: You--

LEANDER: And it also goes to show that, you know, I still haven't seen my mom. I still haven't seen my dad. A lot of us still have not hugged family members and now going on three months.

CUOMO: The dedication is amazing. That's why we heroize the work that you do as first responders. And that's what you are in this situation. But you will not be forgotten, Lauren. I promise you that. We will be making the case for the State needing help.

And you're right. The power is partly, or in large part, in the hands of people who decide how to live their lives, and make choices, so they don't wind up meeting you the wrong way.

But you will not be forgotten and the need will not be forgotten. I promise you that. Not on this show.

You know, I am always a phone call away. You can always get a member of the team, and tell us what's going on, tell us what's needed, tell us what's not happening and you will get the platform. I promise you that.

I know what matters to you is the job though. I don't want to keep you too long. God bless. Good luck. Stay safe. And thank you.

LEANDER: Thank you, Chris, for giving us a voice again. Thank you.

CUOMO: All right. Lauren Leander. I got to tell you, you know, we always say there's always hope. Yes, she is why, the Ameri-CANs. That's why. We are her, too.

We're not just these politicians and boobs and all these fools that are making these horrible proclamations about this not being a problem.

We're her, too. We're the doctors and the nurses and the healthcare workers and the communities that are coming together and helping. We are all those people, too.

The High Court today delivered a partial blow to a President who considers himself above the law. I don't see why people are calling it a win. I'll be honest with you.

A New York D.A., the Court found, can pursue Trump's taxes. A President is not immune from prosecution, OK? It's all about when they can do things to a President, not whether they can do them.

But Trump can run out the clock, until after the election, when it comes to Congress wanting his taxes. So, how is the win on principle, if practically, he winds up not having to show them during the election anyway?

A Pulitzer Prize winner argued Biden shouldn't debate this President if the taxes don't see the light of day. Now what? Next.

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CUOMO: Three Conservative Supreme Court Justice, two of them put there by Trump himself, ruled against the President today with a decision that he cannot defy a subpoena demanding he reveal his tax returns. The President is not above the law. He is not immune to prosecution.

So, what does that mean for Democrats? Nothing immediately. You know, this may be a win on principle. But practically, they're not going to get anything during this election. So, now what? Trump is describing the decision as not fair and

comparing it to, "The Mueller Witch Hunt." You know, look, is there any institution he won't attack, if it's good for him to do so? No. So, there is no surprise.

But what does this mean to the analysis of Tom Friedman, the Pulitzer Prize winning New York Times' Columnist, Author of the best-selling book, "Thank You for Being Late," joins us now to discuss the ruling and more.

Now, in context for you, Tom, this is, you said Biden shouldn't debate the President, if the taxes aren't on the table, and if there isn't a fact-checking team, independently-developed, in-real time, so that truth is at a commodity, and you can't hide things. Now what?

TOM FRIEDMAN, COLUMNIST, THE NEW YORK TIMES, AUTHOR, "THANK YOU FOR BEING LATE": Well, you know, Chris, my point is that, you know, for many Americans, this will be the first and longest time they see Joe Biden during this campaign, these three debates, because they're going to be huge.

And because of the Coronavirus, the Vice President, you know, has to really limit his exposure. So, he has a lot riding on these debates.

And my point was simply that people make rules for debates all the time. You know, "What size the podium should be? Who should be the questioners?"

Why not make telling the truth a condition? It's not a bad idea. And why not make equal transparency on revealing one's tax returns? Biden's disclosed his tax returns for the last three years. Why not - why not Trump?

These are - and, for Trump, in Trump's case, it is very important because, since he has been President, we know people have been staying at his hotel, in Washington, spending lots of money entertaining there, in order to get close to the President.

And, most importantly, we know that, on multiple occasions, when U.S. Intelligence agencies have decried behavior of Russia's President Vladimir Putin, Trump, every single time, has sided, given the benefit of the doubt, to Putin, and not our own Intelligence agencies.

And the third thing we know, because his son, Donald Trump Jr., told us, is large amounts of Russian money have gone into Trump's real estate investments. So, we need to see those tax returns.

Can you imagine, Chris, if Trump is re-elected, and we have no clue of whether he is in debt to Russians, who are aligned with Putin, and he has four years, unburdened by the need to get re-elected?

So, this is not a small matter. And basically, given what the Court has decided, just to finish this point--

CUOMO: Sure. FRIEDMAN: --this is actually the last chance, for us, to see these tax returns, because as a Democratic Congressman pointed out, about that court ruling today, it said, "Trump cannot outrun the law, but he can run out the clock."

CUOMO: True, absolutely. And that's exactly what he intends to do.

So, one substance point, one style point.

The substance point is, why is it wrong to assume that if there were something of the nature that you describe, in Trump's taxes, it would have come out in one of the investigations of him that have already happened?

FRIEDMAN: Gosh, I have no idea, you know, because those investigations weren't specifically about, you know, his financial transactions, particularly the breadth of his real estate holdings. So, I don't think you can assume that at all.

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And I would ask the question in reverse, Chris. If there is nothing in there, if it's all come out, why would you go all the way to the Supreme Court--

CUOMO: Right. That's the good counter.

FRIEDMAN: --to prevent us from seeing his tax returns.

CUOMO: Yes.

FRIEDMAN: Something no - every President, since Jimmy Carter--

CUOMO: Right.

FRIEDMAN: --has shared with us, except this one.

CUOMO: That's right. I mean, you know, I think what the truth comes down to is that he doesn't like what's going to be in the taxes, but that doesn't mean they're going to be the kinds of things that people suspect.

The style point is that your analysis was interpreted on the Right, and certainly on the Fringe Right, as "You're afraid of Biden debating this guy. You know that he's going to tear Biden up. And you want to keep Biden in the basement. That's why you're putting these conditions on it. You don't want a fair fight."

FRIEDMAN: Well, I think the conditions of a fair fight is that fact- checkers be present to make sure both sides are telling the truth, number one, and the conditions of a fair fight are that both have equally exposed their tax returns.

I'm really intrigued by how urgently so many Right-wing commentators came out against this idea. They really did not like this idea. So, I think - yes, I understand people are going to say "Biden's hiding and Biden probably isn't going to do this. He's happy to debate Trump." Go ahead.

But think of that debate for a second, Chris. Trump's going to bring up Hunter Biden. Trump's going to bring up the fact that, you know, Biden's made a lot of money speaking, and selling books, since he's been in Office.

And Trump's going to be completely immune to counterpunching, other than the question of "Why haven't you released your tax returns?"

And I see something else, Chris. By getting this out now, getting it on the table, and having fact-checkers, this debate is going to be hugely important. We are at such a critical time in our country right now. Millions of Americans are unemployed.

And this Coronavirus is accelerating a transformation, in our economy, in how we work, and where we work, how we educate, and where we educate, how we travel, that we absolutely need a serious discussion, by both these men, about how we are going to renew and re-energize this country, at a time when, Chris, there is going to be massive creative destruction coming down the road.

And I'd like to focus on that, not on making this a mud-slinging match, where basically Biden's going to have to spend half his time just fact-checking Trump.

CUOMO: Well, look, just the current state of play, in this country, is more than enough, for anybody, to take on, and make sense of, let alone pitch the American people that they can do better.

Who would have ever imagined we'd be in the middle of a pandemic that our President would be denying the reality of, for starters, that he would see a Movement like Black Lives Matter, for social justice, as a political attack on him.

This is a very interesting time, Tom Friedman, you're right about that. And who leads will be very, very important, in terms of which direction we take.

Appreciate seeing you as well. Good to see that you're healthy. God bless you--

FRIEDMAN: Thank you.

CUOMO: --and the family and be well.

FRIEDMAN: You too, Chris. Thanks so much.

CUOMO: All right.

So, the President tried to sell you on the idea of disinfectant as some kind of magic COVID cure. Then he said he was being sarcastic. Well, now, four Ameri-CAN'Ts just got charged with literally trying to sell what the President was talking about, a bleach bust.

What happened and why it matters, next.

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CUOMO: I just reminded you of when President Trump floated the idea of injecting disinfectants, to knock out Coronavirus and, you know, everybody was like, "Oh, he's just kidding, he's just being sarcastic."

Listen, he wasn't being sarcastic, until he got caught saying something stupid. And the problem is, when a President speaks, even Trump, people listen. The proof? Tonight's Ameri-CAN'Ts, OK?

They have taken full advantage of that ridiculous and dangerous notion, to cash in, and people were buying it, and taking it with lethal results.

The Feds say a Florida father and three sons tried to - tried to pass off what they call a "Toxic Bleach" as a "Miracle Mineral Solution" for Coronavirus. They're now criminally charged, accused of selling the modern-day snake oil through their so-called religious organization.

Prosecutors say the family sold tens of thousands, tens of thousands of bottles of that crap with no government approval of any kind. The FDA has gotten reports of life-threatening injuries and, yes, deaths, from people taking this cocktail, all right?

And this isn't the family's first go-around either at the at-home pharmacy game. They've also claimed this Miracle batch could cure cancer, Alzheimer's, autism, HIV/AIDS and more.

This is the kind of pernicious evil scam that can flourish, when those in power feed the ignorance over the facts of science. When you make it about what you want people to believe, instead of what they should know to be true, things get dangerous.

We tell you "Don't be a sucker." But that message is hard to sell, when it's set up against the most powerful man in the world, saying the opposite.

And then they spin it, and he says he was just sarcastic, and then you guys will say this, in his defense. "Are you blaming him for what these guys did?" Here's the answer. "Yes." And I'll tell you why, because it becomes saleable because of his

suggestion. If the President doesn't tell you that this is something you can do, it's really less likely that you're going to think about drinking bleach.

And I'm not talking about a cap full in a bathtub that's been a remedy for ages. This is about drinking this stuff, OK? If he doesn't say stupid things, if he doesn't ignore the truth, if he doesn't avoid the reality, we are in a different place.

Thank you for watching. CNN TONIGHT with D. Lemon right now.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST, CNN TONIGHT WITH DON LEMON: Yes. Well that's what a swimming pool.

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