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Cuomo Prime Time

138,000-Plus Dead In U.S. & White House Says Trump's COVID-19 Response "Speaks For Itself"; Georgia Governor Sues Atlanta Mayor Over City's Mask Mandate; Texas Governor: No Lockdown Needed, Follow Mask Mandate. Aired 9-10p ET

Aired July 16, 2020 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[21:00:00]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: Yes. Sanjay, as always, thanks so much. We also want to thank our guest, Dr. Tom Frieden, Neal Browning, and Ian Haydon.

Also, thanks to those of you who wrote in with your questions. Everyone who joined us, if you didn't get your question answered tonight, conversation continues at CNN.com/CoronavirusAnswers.

News continues right now with Chris Cuomo.

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CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST, CUOMO PRIME TIME: Hey everybody, I am Chris Cuomo. Welcome to PRIME TIME.

Will today be the last day that we wait before fighting back against this pandemic? I say "We" because after 138,000 dead, this President has not really moved much from his original delusion.

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DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: They tried the impeachment hoax. That was on a perfect conversation.

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TRUMP: And this is their new hoax.

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CUOMO: We now all know that the pandemic is all too real and that the real hoax is the Trump Administration's alleged response. He can't wear a mask at the Resolute desk but he can go "Goya-o-boya?"

He can't help states with schools, but he has plenty of energy to take on this catastrophe. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: So showerheads, you take a shower, the water doesn't come out. You want to wash your hands, the water doesn't come out. So what do you do? You just stand there longer or you take a shower longer? Because my hair, I don't know about you, but has to be perfect.

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TRUMP: Perfect.

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CUOMO: You could just turn the knob more or call a plumber.

But the bigger point is, why make up a problem, like he just did, when you have a real pandemic? Team Trump's lack of effort, to this point, has less - left them with only this weak sauce to sell.

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KAYLEIGH MCENANY, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: We believe this President has great approval in this country. His historic COVID response speaks for itself.

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CUOMO: Yep. Historic! Historic low numbers! Historic hoax as a response! That's why "We," you, I, your neighbors, your community, we can no longer wait.

You want your kids in school? You want to get back to work for real? Demand those in power do their damn jobs. How? You have to get angry about what's happening. You must be outraged by the obvious. I know you are.

Here's why. Good conscience will not move these men and women to do the right thing for us, OK? You see it. It has not led our leaders to lessen our load. What will is tapping into their fear of consequence.

Many years have passed. But one of the great movies captured, where we are right now, and where change has to start. Remember this from "Network."

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HOWARD BEALE, FICTIONAL CHARACTER PLAYED BY PETER FINCH, "NETWORK": It's a Depression. Everybody's out of work or scared of losing their job. The dollar buys a nickel's worth.

Banks are going bust. Shopkeepers keep a gun under the counter. Punks are running wild in the street and there's nobody anywhere who seems to know what to do, and there's no end to it. I want you to get Mad! I don't want you to protest. I don't want you to riot. I don't want you to write to your Congressman, because I wouldn't know what to tell you to write. I don't know what to do about the Depression and the inflation and the Russians and the crime in the street.

All I know is that first you've got to get mad. You've got to say, "I'm a human being, God-dammit! My life has value!"

So, I want you to get up now. I want all of you to get up out of your chairs. I want you to get up right now, and go to the window, open it, and stick your head out, and yell, "I'm as mad as hell, and I'm not going to take this anymore!"

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CUOMO: It was true then. It's true now. If you are not mad as hell at what's happening in this country, you're not paying attention.

You can go online. You don't have to go out the window anymore. You have to let the people in power, the people on the Fringe, the people who comment on the people on the Fringe, let them know how outraged you are.

Let them know you are going to vote everywhere and in every race you can. None of us is immune to this danger. Only two states have declining cases. 39 are on the rise. The reason is the hoax of our response.

There is no reason for America to be the worst. There is no reason for Texas to have to, at this point, with all we had time to prepare for, to be bringing in refrigerated trailers to store the dead.

[21:05:00]

Florida is on fire. Governor DeSantis mocked concerns. Now he babbles through a mask, backpedaling, as cases crush that State and all those good people.

More daily cases in Florida than New York had at its peak, more than Germany, the U.K., and Japan combined, right now. More than 50 hospital ICUs have reached capacity. Why?

DeSantis calls the explosion a "Blip." All those sick and dead, no plan, in denial, hiding hospitalization numbers, question is will voters make him a blip? Where is the outrage? Force him to face the facts.

Georgia, Republican Governor there, Kemp, banning cities from mandating masks in public. Think about this. He is suing Atlanta Mayor, Keisha Lance Bottoms, who is dealing with COVID, her husband, her kids. He is forcing a block of her mask order, not the other way, forcing her to have people wear masks because they work.

Fighting against one of your only tools, and why? This is the outrage. Because they are all, Kemp, DeSantis, Abbott in Texas, they're all on the Trump Train, and they're all off the rails as a result.

There should be outrage, because you don't have to be unreasonable to be on the Right. GOP-led Arkansas required masks in public today. There are reasonable Republicans still.

Governors like Maryland's Larry Hogan compelled to call out this BS. He just wrote an Op-Ed slamming Trump's hopeless COVID response. This Republican, the Head of the Governors Association, by the way, OK, says the President has left his State to fight alone, like all the others.

The boldest move by Trump in this mess has been what? Objectively, it's been this power play he just made to hide data from you. It is an outrage.

As of last night, the CDC had to take down its COVID patient data under orders from HHS.

But what happened? You're outraged. The media is outraged. This is BS what he's doing. I don't have to curse for this to be vulgar. It's all profane. It's all vulgar. Don't worry about the words. Worry about what warrants those words.

So, because of the outrage, HHS directed that the data go back up. You see? They fear consequence. They fear the outrage. You have the power.

But what's the "But?" Now they say that data won't be modified after July 14th. Why not? Give me a good reason for limiting your access, my access, as a journalist, to reality. There is none. It is an outrage. So, be outraged. This is not about facts. It's about crushing the fiction.

Remember, Trump retweeting a conspiracy theory from this former game show host, Chuck Woolery? He was on a show called "Love Connection." Woolery accused the CDC, Democrats, doctors, everybody he could think of, of lying about COVID to hurt Trump.

What happened? Woolery now says his own son has COVID. He put up a follow-up tweet that this virus is, in fact real, it is here, before deactivating his Twitter account. That one didn't get a retweet from President Trump. I wonder why not?

It is an outrage. Now, let's be clear. I'm saying "Be outraged," not "Be inhumane." Forgive Woolery's ignorance. I wish he hadn't canceled his account. I wish that now he would start talking about what the reality is, instead of his political reality.

And I feel for his kid, man. This sucks. Even if you don't have symptoms, you don't know what's going to happen next. I wish the family well. I hope his son recovers quickly. I hope nobody else gets it.

But you cannot forgive a President for faking a response to a pandemic, let alone for political gain. I would bet you anything, if you start voicing your outrage, if he and the others in power, the men and women know you are coming for them, big change. The whole dynamic there would change. We need that right now. If you

want kids in school, if you want our butts back where we can provide for them best, while we work, you have to do it now.

So, let's focus our energy on what the reality is and what has to happen.

[21:10:00]

I want to bring in Dr. Ashish Jha, the Director of the Harvard Global Health Institute, and I want, thank you very much, Doc, for being with me, as always, to start with this idea of - I hope I'm wrong.

What good reason is there to say, "No, no, no, no, not to the CDC hospitals. Give it to HHS. Oh, OK, fine, fine, fine, CDC can still have them, all right. I want you all to be able to have access to the data. OK, he is a scientist, all right, but not after July 14th. We're not going to update it after that."

What is the good reason?

DR. ASHISH JHA, DIRECTOR, HARVARD GLOBAL HEALTH INSTITUTE: Chris, thank you for having me on. There is no good reason. The bottom line--

CUOMO: You sure that there is not some efficiency thing or you know?

JHA: Oh, sure, sure, sure. OK. So, let's play this out, fine. Fine, fine, you want to? Let's play this out.

"CDC is not doing a great job. The data's, they're not being, you know, they're not sort of handling this efficiently. Let's move this to HHS." OK. It's theoretically possible. But CDC is the clearing house for all of our public health data. We rely on them.

Why would you take one piece of data out? If they are not doing a good job, let's fix it. Let's give them resources, technical expertise, whatever they are missing. But this idea that we're going to create a whole parallel structure, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

CUOMO: What about the July 14th cut-off?

JHA: We are early in the pandemic, Chris. And so, if starting now, we are not going to have updates, and regular information, on hospitalizations, how the heck do we know, like how things are going and how we actually manage these things? So, July 14th cut-off is a huge problem.

CUOMO: The argument that, "Hey listen. Everything is true. OK? You have 39 states are going up, only two are going down. But this is what was always going to happen. This is not about a mess-up of any kind of leadership. It's not about people being too lax. The virus was always going to go through," is that true? Was this inevitable?

JHA: Not even close. And you can say, "Well was that just your opinion?" No. I look at the rest of the world. Look at Europe. People are opening

up. The economies are in better shape. Kids are going back to school. Why? Because they controlled the virus.

And, in our country, we have chosen, as our political leaders have chosen, not to control the virus. And that means that in not just those 39 states, but in about a dozen states, things are out of control. Another dozen states, things are bad, but still manageable.

These are choices we've made, Chris. These are not inevitable. These are not faded.

CUOMO: And we can still make better choices, especially as we get more information. Let me get your take, quickly, on two headlines.

One, CDC finds most patients seem to share at least one of three symptoms, fever, cough, shortness of breath. Only 45 percent experienced all three. I'm one of those, by the way. So, what is the relevance here in terms of why is this good to know?

JHA: Yes. So, it just is a reminder that while this virus has lots of different manifestations, at the end of the day, almost everybody really experiences it as a respiratory infection, fever, cough, shortness of breath.

Those are the things that really drive this. And so, if we just focus on that, anybody who has any of those three things needs to get identified, needs to get tested and he's--

CUOMO: Smart testing.

JHA: Yes. Testing's--

CUOMO: All right, I got you. How about this other one? Do you buy the blood type stuff?

Again, they say "A" may be more susceptible, I'm "A negative," good grade, bad blood type apparently, and that "O" is low risk. Now, my wife is "O," and she got it, but a much more mild case than I had.

And there are a bunch of "Os" in our midst who have these weird stories of not getting it, despite the fact that dot-dot-dot, and then they have these individualized horror stories of "And I took care of this one, who was sick as heck, but I never got it, and" so, do you buy the blood type thing?

JHA: Look, there's clearly something going on. There is some scientific evidence clearly that people with "O" are less likely to get it, people with "A" more likely to get it, or more likely to have a severe case.

I don't know what it means. Here is the biggest bottom line. There are plenty of people with "O" type blood who still end up getting very sick, so it's not somehow magically protective.

And second, none of us can change our blood type. So, I'm not sure it really helps, at the end of the day.

We have to understand what it teaches us about the biology of the virus. That's what's important, and that really is going to take a lot of work, a lot of team work, of people coming together to figure that out.

But from a - from a functional point of view, and a policy point of view, it doesn't really change anything.

CUOMO: Dr. Ashish Jha, thank you for bringing the information, bringing the insight, and helping us understand things better. We're all in it together. Thank you, brother.

JHA: Thank you.

CUOMO: All right.

[21:15:00]

Tonight, Georgia's Governor is going on offense against one of his own mayors for defying his ban on masks. Again, this is "Alice in Wonderland" crazy talk, OK? The only freedom that Kemp is protecting is the virus' freedom to spread.

Let's bring in another Georgia Mayor, who says he's deeply frustrated. What does that mean? What's he going to do? Next.

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CUOMO: When you look at the communities that have made progress against this pandemic, they all share wearing masks, taking hygiene seriously, taking distancing seriously. More masks, fewer shutdowns. Period!

So, explain Georgia to me, to yourself. It's going from bad to worse there, OK? Hopefully, look, it goes up, it comes down. But what makes it come down?

The Governor there is suing the Mayor of Atlanta, saying "You can't insist that people wear masks." It includes the Governor's hometown of Athens-Clarke County. That's where, my next guest, Mayor Kelly Girtz is from, Democrat there.

Welcome to PRIME TIME. MAYOR KELLY GIRTZ, (D) ATHENS-CLARKE COUNTY, GEORGIA: Chris, good to have - good to have this time with you. I wish it was under other circumstances.

CUOMO: Me too, Sir. Is the family well? Does anybody in your immediate family and care have it?

GIRTZ: My family is well.

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CUOMO: Thank God.

GIRTZ: I have an 8-year-old son. And we all got tested about three weeks ago because I came into contact with a colleague, who was positive. And fortunately, we didn't contract COVID.

And I'm sorry about your own experience. But really, I want to prevent that experience for as many people in this community as I possibly can. But it's difficult, under these circumstances, with the Governor seemingly unwilling to go to the place where many, many other Republican Governors have gone.

Texas, Alabama, we're hearing about Arkansas today. It's just clear that there is some simple healthcare guidance and some simple science that we all ought to be following across the political spectrum.

CUOMO: What is even the legal basis, in your opinion, for fighting masks?

I could see the legal basis for insisting on masks. And Mayor Girtz says "No. No masks here. We're about freedom," and then the Governor sues, and says, "Too bad, you are endangering public health."

But how do you legally justify the reverse? What is the liberty argument here?

GIRTZ: I don't believe there is any legal justification. I think it's strictly a political justification.

Look, I have some measure of sympathy for Governor Kemp and people across the political spectrum, who are leaders, in this day and time, when everybody has to figure out how to respond to every tweet and every bizarre utterance out of the White House.

It's like some strange game of Political Twister. I mean that just makes everybody's life difficult. I mean, I've moved my family into a cardboard box on the street for some national and some statewide leadership right now.

But, in lieu of that, mayors are acting, as I have, as the Mayor of Atlanta has, and Savannah, and Augusta, and about 14 cities, across the State of Georgia, and we come to find out yesterday that the Governor is going to try and countermand our orders.

We are not lifting our ordinance in Athens though because we want to make sure that whether you're in a small business--

CUOMO: Right.

GIRTZ: --or a national chain, you are similarly safe. And Chris, we're seeing chain after chain, Walmart, CVS, Kroger--

CUOMO: Right.

GIRTZ: --declare, you know, we're going to require masks in all our stores. And so, businesspeople have been asking me to create as level a playing field as possible, so people can't point across the street.

CUOMO: Well plus you've got the University in Athens.

GIRTZ: Yes, it's there.

CUOMO: I was lucky enough to go and visit there, when I was playing in college. And that's a big UGA campus there. And they have their own rule about masks. And they're like what, 40,000 strong down there.

GIRTZ: That's exactly right.

CUOMO: How do the societies even match up?

The only thing I want to push back on, Mayor, is why all this understanding and forgiveness? Why aren't you outraged by what the Governor is doing because you know it's a naked political play? There is no public health--

GIRTZ: It is terrible.

CUOMO: --perspective on it. And I think if you guys don't start knuckling up against him, you're going to lose this fight, because people don't want to do what's hard.

GIRTZ: Yes, we're united.

CUOMO: They want to do what's easy.

GIRTZ: Yes. And we have to be in this together.

I mean, certainly I get this Fringe phone calls that - that argue the liberty question about masks. But I'll tell you, I worked in retail in the 1980s, when we transitioned from having ashtrays, at the end of every aisle, in the record store I worked at--

CUOMO: Sure.

GIRTZ: --to understanding that "Hey, that's not to the benefit of other customers, who don't smoke, or to the employees who are in there."

And it's is a very different - a very similar circumstance right now, when we're talking about COVID, and the ability to keep aerosol spray and droplets from infecting other people. So, we have the safety-- CUOMO: Yes. And it's just the public.

GIRTZ: --ability now.

CUOMO: It's not like you always have to have a mask on. If you don't want to wear a mask, stay home, you know, or find places to--

GIRTZ: That's right. Here, I am, in my home.

CUOMO: --socially distance, be places that are six feet apart. I mean, how much of your day do you have to spend, in close quarters, in your community?

You know, I just I feel that this is pastime for political debate. And it's got to be, you know, because they have the outrage angle. Kemp has outrage on his side, which makes no sense.

You know, people who don't want to wear a mask are outraged. They call Mayor Girtz, "And I'm mad at you."

You should be mad at them. People who want to be safe--

GIRTZ: Right.

CUOMO: --should be mad at them. That's where the outrage should be.

GIRTZ: And today, people are, I'm hearing from constituent after constituent who is saying, "Please, hang on to the mask order. We want to be safe. We want a community that's safe. We want a 40,000-strong University student population that's safe."

And, of course, as you well know, because you've had conversations about this, even young people, who are getting sick--

CUOMO: Yes.

GIRTZ: --are having after effects, lung damage, and the like.

CUOMO: Yes. And they can communicate it even if they don't have the symptoms.

Listen, Mayor, I feel for you.

GIRTZ: That's right.

CUOMO: I feel for leaders right now. But look, this is what you wanted. Everybody wanted to be in a position of power to make a difference. Well you're there right now. And that's exactly the task at hand.

I don't think this lawsuit can do anything but it can buy time. So, hopefully, the messaging to people that even if it's not a law, even if the law is in dispute, it can still be the mandate among people, you know, social pressure. Nothing dirty, nothing vulgar, this is about making people more healthy. Not less healthy. But hopefully the community gets it right. We will keep our eyes on

Georgia. You are welcome here to tell us the state of play, whenever it suits you.

[21:25:00]

Mayor Kelly Girtz, thank you.

GIRTZ: We're going to stay strong.

CUOMO: Stay strong.

GIRTZ: Thank you, Chris.

CUOMO: Stay strong. Stay safe. God bless your family.

GIRTZ: Thank you.

CUOMO: All right, so another big story. Can't let it skip by. A global cyber-attack on the people trying to save the United States with a COVID vaccine, have you heard about this? The NSA blames the Russians. And they're not alone, OK?

Do you hear that? Where's Mr. Law & Order? Where is it? Where is the President? Where are his guys, right now, on Russia? Next.

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CUOMO: OK. Here's the headline.

Russians are messing with the Coronavirus vaccine. This is the latest warning coming from National Security officials in the United States and from experts in England and Canada.

Now, with that kind of consensus, you'd think the President would be furious, right, after all, in the middle of a pandemic that is literally killing us? His only move seems to be to tell us how quickly a vaccine is coming.

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TRUMP: I think we're going to have a vaccine very soon. We are very close to a vaccine.

We think we're going to have a vaccine in the pretty near future.

We think we're going to have a vaccine by the end of this year.

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CUOMO: So, wouldn't you care if the Russians were trying to mess with that effort?

The hacking group caught, going after researchers, goes by a few different names. One of them is "Cozy Bear."

Remember that? One of the same groups that we know was messing around with the 2016 election in a "Sweeping and systematic fashion." By the way, that hasn't stopped either. But there is just no urgency to do anything about it apparently.

Surely, after this President spent most of his time in Office, under investigation, was even impeached, because of Russian hacking, you'd think he'd tell them to knock it off or worse, right? He loves to talk tough.

Then again, I was there two years ago, today, when he stood on the world stage, and embarrassed this country, in a way that I have never experienced before. Do you remember this?

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TRUMP: My people came to me. Dan Coats came to me, and some others. They said, they think it's Russia. I have President Putin. He just said it's not Russia. I will say this. I don't see any reason why it would be.

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CUOMO: Wow! I'll never forget that. On the world stage, he took the word of Putin over his own Intel.

At this point, it's not even worth waiting for the crickets, right? They know he's not going to say anything to Vladimir Putin, just like he won't say anything about the possibility that Russians were putting bounties on the heads of our troops.

In the face of such repeated provocation, it's the silence that's more telling than any words that can come out of his mouth.

And I want you to think about this as well. Trump wanted you to focus today on these shiny pickup trucks outside the White House. I drive a Ford, but those are nice. His Regulatory Reform photo-op, right, that's what he cares about.

We know what they show. Not the trucks hauling in refrigerated trailers, for states like Texas, to store the dead, because the hospital morgues are full. That he doesn't want you to pay attention to. But too bad! We will stay focused on what matters.

We'll have a former FDA Commissioner who's now advising Texas and the Governor there on the crisis. What does he see? What happens next?

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CUOMO: Every State matters. But the big states present unique challenges, and they create more of an opportunity to assess what this pandemic does, and what works in response.

That's why we're watching California so carefully, Florida, and of course, Texas, all right?

They have a rising case problem. They have, more importantly, rising hospitalizations and rising death.

Now, here is why it's interesting. They have a mask mandate. They have a Republican Governor there. It's - I can't believe I have to like qualify that like "If you're a Republican, you may not want a mask." That's how crazy this mode is that we're in right now.

But Governor Abbott is a Republican, and he said, "No. We got to wear masks now." Yes, he fought them early on. He was on the Trump Train. But that train crashes, so you have to then get off and make your own way.

But he is sending this odd message about why a lockdown just can't happen. Listen.

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GOV. GREG ABBOTT (R-TX): People are panicking, thinking I'm about to shut down Texas again. The answer is no. That is not the goal. I've been abundantly clear.

I've been saying exactly what the Head of CDC said today, what the Head of CDC said today, and that is if everyone can adopt the practice of wearing a face mask, for the next four weeks, we will be able to get COVID-19 under control.

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CUOMO: Yes. The key is, "If everyone," OK, and everyone socially distances, and everyone practices the right hygiene.

But what happens if they don't? Notice he said the word "Goal" in there. "No, no, no, that's not the goal," right. But don't play because if it's not everyone, then what happens next?

Former FDA Commissioner, Mark McClellan, is advising the Governor on the pandemic.

It's good to see you, my friend. Welcome back on PRIME TIME.

DR. MARK MCCLELLAN, FORMER FDA COMMISSIONER, ADVISING TEXAS GOVERNOR ON COVID-19 CRISIS: Good to be with you, Chris.

CUOMO: So, I don't get it. Why wouldn't you be open to whatever you need to do to get the cases down, so that you can rebuild and reopen with the assuredness that we have to have in these days?

MCCLELLAN: Well, Chris, the Governor is right. If everybody did wear a mask, if everybody did keep out of large groups, if everybody did socially distance, and stay home, if they have symptoms, we could reopen the economy successfully.

You're right that that's not happening in Texas, it's not happening in many other states, to the extent that it needs to. It may not really need to be everybody. But 90 percent-plus is what it's going to take for these measures to work.

And I think the Governor also wanted to emphasize that people need to make these choices. Local governments need to help enforce the mask mandate.

[21:40:00]

It's just like following the fire code in a restaurant or following the no-smoking and side rules. These are health measures that are really important right now. And I think he is trying to emphasize just how important it is for people to follow those steps.

CUOMO: And also, isn't Texas a cautionary tale? They reopened too soon and the wrong way. It looks strong early on, right? You know, "Eh! We don't care. We're going to do it. Texas tough," isn't that why they're in the situation they're in right now?

MCCLELLAN: It would have been much better if the opening had been slower, and if it had come along with people taking that mask-wearing, and these other steps much more widely, if people were doing those things much more widely.

At this point, though, it's - it absolutely would help, if people did follow the mask-wearing more consistently. And Chris, I think there are some signs that that's happening.

The local governments are helping now a bit. We've still got a ways to go to get the mask-wearing up. But I think there are some signs that Texans are paying more attention. You know, this isn't just an issue of individual choice. It's an issue

of being a good neighbor and caring about the people around you, which is also a big part of the Texas tradition.

CUOMO: Right. Also, safety is not weakness.

MCCLELLAN: Yes.

CUOMO: Right? I mean, we know what refrigerator trucks look like for bodies, here in New York. We remember here.

MCCLELLAN: Yes.

CUOMO: That is not a sign of any kind of balanced response to the threat.

You know, that is about a very extreme out-of-control situation. So, at what point, what has to happen, for Texas, to think about, "Hey, I got to take another big step backwards, so we can all move forward together?"

MCCLELLAN: Well Texas has been able to stay open to this point even without everybody or enough people following the guidance about masks and social distancing because of the response of the healthcare system. Compared to New York, in April, Chris, they had more time to prepare.

CUOMO: Right.

MCCLELLAN: And, you know, hats off to the healthcare providers in Texas.

They've ramped up capacity in hospitals. They've gotten more ventilators. They're able to take care of more people in the ICUs. They're getting stretched, right now, they're having to bring in extra health professionals. And that can't continue forever.

So, the Governor is right that if everybody does change now, and start following the guidance, then Texas could stay open. But there is not much time left for those changes to happen.

CUOMO: Is it a coincidence that you have California, Texas, Arizona, Florida, getting hit hard? Is the fact that these are Governors who are echoing Trump, early on, not a factor in the non-compliance and the problems?

MCCLELLAN: It could be a factor. But, Chris, we're starting to see these trends happening in other states.

So, you're right. Texas, Georgia, Arizona, Florida were early. California has a Democratic Governor. They're having some of the same problems. And now, we're starting to see these trends in other states, Kentucky, Missouri, other parts of the Midwest. So, the same thing will happen elsewhere.

We're still in the first wave of the pandemic. It's just the second phase was Texas and the other big states. Now, the third phase is going to be the rest of the United States, if we don't all--

CUOMO: Right.

MCCLELLAN: --take these steps together.

CUOMO: I mean, look, that's why I'm talking at the top of the show tonight about outrage.

MCCLELLAN: Yes.

CUOMO: People have to demand that people do what's good for them, not what just looks strong in some bizarro universe. And that takes me to Senator Rand Paul. He's a Doctor, but he said something today that's tough to square with medicine.

Listen to this.

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SEN. RAND PAUL (R-KY): I'm kind of pro-vaccine, but I'm also pro- freedom.

Look, there's millions of us, like me now, who are immune. Are they going to hold me--

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

PAUL: --down and stick a needle in my arm? They probably will, because these people believe in the idea that they are so right and that their cause is so righteous that they can inflict it on others.

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CUOMO: How is he not playing politics there, Scott? Because who's immune by the way?

I had it. He had it. I have antibodies. He has antibodies. I don't think I'm immune. Nobody will tell me I'm immune. So, what does he know that I don't know? And what is this freedom in balance with the vaccine? What is that all about to you?

MCCLELLAN: Well Chris, chances are you are protected from the virus for a while. But you're right. We don't know.

CUOMO: Right.

MCCLELLAN: This is a new virus. We don't know how long or how strong immunity is. And so the vaccine is really going to be the way out of this.

And if most people don't take it, if we don't get to that 60 percent, 70 percent level of immunity in the population, the virus will keep spreading. It won't burn itself out because it has no place or not enough places to go.

So, if everybody has that attitude of "Well I'm not going to take it. I'll depend on other people," then we're not going to get there. It's sort of like with the masks, you know, we all have to be in this together, at least almost all of us.

CUOMO: I hope you're right about the immunity thing. I don't know. So many people are losing antibodies because they didn't have that strong a case, and they're going away. And we're not used to seeing that with antibodies. I don't know. I just I'm so unsure of things.

[21:45:00]

I do know one thing though. I got COVID brain. What have I known you? 15 years? And I called you Scott?

Mark McClellan--

MCCLELLAN: Hey!

CUOMO: --you have always been a benefit to me. Thank you for being a plus for my audience. Always good to see you, brother. And be well.

MCCLELLAN: Good to be with you, stay well.

CUOMO: All right. Scott! I don't even know a Scott.

All right anyway, we're going to stay focused on Texas, why? Because there is another important perspective I need you to hear.

This isn't about the politicians, OK? They're not the ones in trouble. They're not the ones to feel for, unless they get sick. It's the people who do get sick, and the people who are fighting to keep us well.

A Doctor and a Health Director, who is on the frontlines on all fronts, he's in an area that's swamped with cases. He's running out of equipment, and he's trying to manage it all after being infected himself.

And it is not fair to the people that we say are our heroes to put them in the positions that we are, so nonchalantly. I want you to hear what he's had to deal with, next.

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[21:50:00] CUOMO: As the situation, in Texas gets, more dire, by the day, I want to give you a closer look at what's happening in South Texas, Hidalgo County.

Hospitals there have hit capacity. Ambulances forced to hold patients for hours before a place can be found. ICUs, the only way someone can get a bed is when another patient dies. In America!

Dr. Ivan Melendez is seeing all this firsthand, as the Hidalgo County Health Authority. He battled the virus himself.

He was treating people, even though he had a risk factor. He had a tumor on his heart, makes you a little bit more high-risk, because as a doctor obviously knows. This was his first week back.

Let's start outside and then move to inside.

Doctor, thank you for the work you do. Thank you for being what we call, in this show, an Ameri-CAN, someone we look up to for your service to others. What is the situation like in Texas, from your perspective?

DR. IVAN MELENDEZ, HIDALGO COUNTY HEALTH AUTHORITY: Thank you for having me on the show, and allowing us - for me to voice what is going on in our - in our County of 1.2 million people.

We are, at this point, have, since July 1st, especially, felt a dramatic increase. The statistics that you've mentioned, Chris, around the hotspots in the nation is emblematic of what's going on here.

We started, before opening up the community, and before having social distances, before Governor Abbott, for whom I have the deepest respect for, before we opened up, we had eight people in the hospital. Now we have 800.

We had four ICU patients. Now we have 211. We had three people on ventilators. Now we have 135. We - it took us two months for 12 people to die in a population of 1.2 million people. We felt that we're doing a strong job.

And once we opened within the natural cycle of this virus, as you also know, also being an ex-patient, my God, now we're losing 30 people, 35 people a day. It took us 2.5 months, 3 months to get to 12. That would be considered a good day today. Today, we had 22, but we usually have 30 to 35.

I cannot impress upon your audience, and yourself. I'm listening to your excellent guests, who are world experts and global system experts.

But as an expert of the Rio Grande Valley, I can tell you that when you need to die to practically get a bed into COVID, when you're up to 10 hours being on a stretcher waiting to be seen, when codes are being done in ambulances, in the bays, when you have two days or three days of people in Emergency Departments wanting to be seen, when, I mean the numbers go on, when we have to bring in refrigerated trucks to hold the bodies, when people do not want to go to the hospital because they're so afraid, every person I talk to, two interns (ph) yesterday, one saw 73 patients ventilated. Another patient - another doctor saw 82 patients ventilated.

30 percent of the people who are on ventilators do not make it. We are in dire need and we are exhausted. I'm not the only one to tell you that we - we go home and we cry. We're exhausted emotionally. We get called at 3:00 in the morning thinking about COVID.

So, indeed, in the Rio Grande Valley, we have had an average of 17 deaths per 100,000 populations since July 1st. The State had had two. Houston has had two to three. So, out of 100,000 people of our population, we have 17 die.

CUOMO: You're getting hit hard.

MELENDEZ: Compared to what's going on in the State.

CUOMO: And look--

MELENDEZ: We got hit so hard.

CUOMO: I understand that you respect the Governor, and totally, you know, that's your right. But you can't respect the fast reopening, because it had to precipitate the cycle that you're in right now.

And the cost isn't just in the numbers. You know, people get lost in the numbers. They're very helpful to a clinician like you because they allow you to understand, and scale your resources, and figure out what you have to do. I totally get that.

But, on the human level, you had to go through something that just breaks my heart. And I was just shocked to hear that you had gone back to work so fast with what you'd had to deal with.

And I want people to understand this from your perspective. Consuela De la Cruz (ph) is a woman who you had care of. She was not just a patient, though. She was a neighbor and a family friend through your mom.

And you wound up against this reality of where people are forced to die alone in the hospital. And what is that like for you? What is the hardest part emotionally, Doc, in dealing with someone, that you know who is forced to be alone.

You had somebody - you had her son make a video for her, right?

[21:55:00]

MELENDEZ: That is correct. As you say, you can have the deepest respect for a person. That doesn't necessarily mean that you respect for the policy.

That being said, you're right, I've lived in this community since 1965. The pictures that you are showing is of Consuela De la Cruz (ph). This is an 82-year-old female that was my patient. She was my neighbor. This is one of my mother's best friends.

It's very common that our patients, even though we're a very large population now, 1.2 million, we all - we all grew up together.

This woman was a pillar of our neighborhood. Every night, she would do her three laps around our block with her cane, and that hat that she's wearing in that photograph. It's an inspiration to all. While the rest of our parents were humbling about in canes, this woman was as fit as you can possibly be.

And she - you see the family pictures there. They went to the beach. A week after the Fourth of July, they went to the beach, and they were in their own place.

They were away from the - most of the crowds. As you can see in the photograph, there is ample distancing. People were not symptomatic with a child, which is relatively unusual. The small child had the virus, unbeknownst to anyone.

CUOMO: Oh, no!

MELENDEZ: And majority of the family members, of course, have tested positive. Within nine days, Ms. De la Cruz (ph), unfortunately, passed away.

CUOMO: Oh, God!

MELENDEZ: And, as you say - yes, as you say, the dramatic part of this, if you can imagine you're taking care of someone that you love, you've known forever. Her son calls you and says, "They've called me from the hospital and we believe she'll be - she'll die."

And then he sends a video that is a goodbye video, telling her how much he respects her, he loves her, she's an inspiration. And when - by the time I get to see her that day, she's died. She's gone away.

CUOMO: Oh, God!

MELENDEZ: And so, as an honor to him, and his wishes, what can you do, except open up the body bag, and show - show this poor woman her son's video saying goodbye to her?

CUOMO: Shoot!

MELENDEZ: And so, these are the experiences that we're living.

The doctors, that we work in the Emergency Department, three are hospitalized. The nurses that brought us in, I've been a doctor for 30-plus years, the nurses that brought us in, we're going to their funerals. It's not just strangers that we're treating. These are members of our - of our community.

CUOMO: I hear you.

MELENDEZ: They're our friends. CUOMO: I hear you. Doc, this is just heartbreaking. And thank you for the work you're doing. Thank you for your teams. Thank you for feeling for your community enough to come back at the risk you're at.

You're always a call away from us to tell us what's going on. You will have this platform. We will not forget.

Dr. Ivan Melendez, Ivan, stay healthy. Be your best.

MELENDEZ: Thank you.

CUOMO: And the best to your family. God bless.

MELENDEZ: Thank you for the compassion to our community and thank you for the opportunity to get our story out. Thank you, Sir.

CUOMO: Thank you. All right, we'll be right back.

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