Return to Transcripts main page

Cuomo Prime Time

Mary Trump: My Book Is Not About "Vendetta" Or "Revenge"; Trump's Niece: POTUS Is "Deeply Damaged" Psychologically; Trump White House Removes Portraits of Presidents Clinton & GW Bush From Grand Foyer. Aired 9-10p ET

Aired July 17, 2020 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[21:00:00]

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: An in-depth interview now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TEXT: ONE ON ONE.

CUOMO: It's interesting to me because my central criticism of your uncle is that he knows better. I do not ascribe to this notion of him as a stupid man. Educated, not education, erudition, we can talk about these things. I don't think that really matter.

MARY TRUMP, PRESIDENT TRUMP'S NIECE: Yes.

CUOMO: The ability to know what is true and not true and how you deal with that, I think is obviously the commodity. And I think --

TRUMP: Sure.

CUOMO: -- he is smart enough to know, and he says things anyway.

TRUMP: Yes.

CUOMO: And I wonder if that was your experience in the family, that he would say things - it's certainly the case with your lawsuit against him, from 20 years ago. I mean that's basically a breach of fiduciary duty lawsuit, that --

TRUMP: Yes.

CUOMO: -- your aunts and uncles, including Donald Trump, had a responsibility to be straight with you about what things were worth, and they weren't.

TRUMP: Right.

CUOMO: And that's the lawsuit. But, in general, was he known as somebody "Well yes, the guy just doesn't tell you the truth?"

TRUMP: Yes. You know, I'm really glad that you brought that issue up because I'm not at all saying that Donald shouldn't be held accountable. He does on some - and on some levels, know what he's doing.

I think one of the reasons he's sort of unraveling a bit now is because what he's always done in the past that used to work isn't really working as effectively anymore. So, it has him scrambling a bit.

But, you know, knowing, not knowing, educated, not educated, as you say, ultimately it is irrelevant, just is as in the grand scheme of things, although it's, I think, extremely useful, in some ways, to understand his psychology. It's irrelevant compared to what's he's doing. You know, that's what we need to focus on.

CUOMO: Right. And, of course, the two go together.

There's a conflation because he's acting on what he says he knows and doesn't know. But I have to believe he knows that masks are helpful. I have to believe that he understands we're in the middle of a pandemic.

TRUMP: Yes.

CUOMO: And that he just sees his best opportunities and ignoring that because that's bad for him.

TRUMP: Yes.

CUOMO: And his problem is more of an ethical or a moral one, not an intellectual one. What's your take on that?

TRUMP: Yes, I actually write about how easy it would have been for him to be the hero in this story.

CUOMO: Still could.

TRUMP: People who --

CUOMO: By the way. As crazy his politics is, and how short people's memories are, he could still be a hero --

TRUMP: Yes.

CUOMO: -- by putting together a plan that gets this country in a better place. Between now and November --

TRUMP: Right.

CUOMO: -- is a long time. Continue.

TRUMP: Right. Well, and you hit on something really important. He could, theoretically. But he can't, constitutionally.

And that's why we - it's not because he doesn't know masks are good. It's not because he is, you know, rabidly anti-science. It's because those things work for the narrative he needs to spin.

So, it would require him to admit, in one way or another, that he's made a mistake, a huge mistake that's cost many, many tens of thousands of lives. He can't do that. So, all he's got left is creating division and that's a place in which he's very, very comfortable.

CUOMO: You depict, in many different ways, and scenarios, what the feeling about Donald Trump's character was within the family. As a general assessment, how was he regarded?

You've said he was confident. He was certainly the favorite child. But on these, kind of primary color issues, you know, credibility, compassion, good person, bad person, families talk. What was the rap on him?

TRUMP: When I was growing up?

CUOMO: Yes.

TRUMP: None of those were ever issues in my family. Never.

CUOMO: You mean they weren't relevant considerations?

TRUMP: That's right. My grandfather was running the show, and they were totally irrelevant considerations to him, so they didn't matter to anybody else either.

CUOMO: Was little cold-blooded there.

TRUMP: Yes, quite.

CUOMO: What was that like for you?

TRUMP: You know, again, when you're growing up, in an atmosphere like that, it's very hard to understand that it's not normal, or that it's dysfunctional, or aberrant in any way. So, you know, I wouldn't - I wouldn't have thought anything of it necessarily.

But, on the other hand, I did witness particularly how it affected my dad. And even though I didn't understand it at the time, I certainly understand it now.

[21:05:00]

And being in a family that did not value the things we were just talking about, and also not being able to subscribe to them, you know, not being able to be the killer, not being able to be the person who is uncaring, or unflinching, it was brutal.

CUOMO: Your father passed at a young age, 42, I believe.

TRUMP: Yes.

CUOMO: Yes?

TRUMP: Yes.

CUOMO: And the President has referred to him having struggles. He usually talks to it about it in terms of alcohol. Did he have a compassionate relationship with your father in terms of his addiction?

TRUMP: No. No, he wouldn't have. My dad's alcoholism, which, you know, has a very significant genetic component, and his disease was looked upon as a weakness and a moral failing, you know, a failure of character. So, no, there was no compassion.

CUOMO: Did they have a close relationship ever in your life?

TRUMP: No. And part of that is the age difference. They were 7.5 years apart. I know that doesn't always mean that --

CUOMO: Right.

TRUMP: -- brothers can't be close. But they were really living very different lives.

You know, by the time - when Donald was in high school, my dad was married already with kids. And when Donald was in college, my dad was flying. So, you know, their paths crossed certainly.

But I wouldn't say they were close. I'm not entirely sure Donald's capable of being truly emotionally close with anybody.

CUOMO: Two criteria questions, in terms of why you approach this the way you do.

The President, and people around him, have a pretty straight line analysis on you, which is "She's out to get him. She's never liked him. She's the oddball in the family, and this is about bitterness. She's upset about her dad and what happened with the lawsuit."

Are those fair criticisms that you don't like Donald Trump for reasons that are personal to you and you are projecting them on to him as a President?

TRUMP: No. Am I upset with how my dad was treated in the family? Of course. I mean, I was 16 when he died. And nobody in the family made an effort to compensate for that, in any way, so that was hard.

I'm not entirely sure one wouldn't be upset that, you know, her uncles and aunts, who were also her trustees, misrepresented things. So, you know, the financial arrangement we reached was essentially fraudulent. I think anybody would be upset about that. But, as I've said, you know, this is not a vendetta. This is not

revenge. This is not a settling of scores. If Donald had continued to be a private citizen, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

They're - you know, you've seen what's been going on with COVID-19, you've seen what's been going on with racial strife in this country. The problems are getting exacerbated every day. We are in serious trouble here.

And a large part of that is because Donald is incapable of leading, and he's being enabled by people, who apparently are only interested in using him towards their own ends. And I'm afraid that those ends are not the best interests of this country. CUOMO: One of the things that is most interesting to me about you, as the writer, is, you know, of course everybody will seize upon the fact that you're family, and that you know this man. Yes, that's interesting to me.

TRUMP: Yes.

CUOMO: But more interesting to me is that you are family, you know this man and you are a clinician.

I get suggestions all the time, from people who are in the therapeutic community, they're in the - you know, they're psychologists, you know, they're really well pedigreed people.

TRUMP: Yes.

CUOMO: I never have them come on the show and talk about the President because they don't know him. They don't have access to him.

TRUMP: Right.

CUOMO: They don't have access to people around him. You know, they'd be purely speculating. You're different.

TRUMP: Yes.

CUOMO: You're a clinician, who actually knows the person that we're talking about.

TRUMP: Yes.

CUOMO: When you look at him through that lens of psychology, and how you would frame this individual, what would that diagnosis be? What would that insight be? How would you describe him in psychological terms?

[21:10:00]

TRUMP: You know, I don't directly diagnose him in the book because, as I said earlier, there is a point at which it's irrelevant. You know, we need to deal with the problems that are being caused by his behaviors.

CUOMO: Yes, except one thing, Mary. I agree with you. You're making a --

TRUMP: Yes.

CUOMO: -- larger, more virtuous point than I am.

TRUMP: Yes.

CUOMO: But I'm thinking politics.

TRUMP: Yes, sure.

CUOMO: And you're thinking humanity. In politics, understanding a person is fundamental to a voter.

TRUMP: Yes.

CUOMO: They will go over to feel over fact nine times out of 10.

TRUMP: Sure.

CUOMO: "I just - I just like Mary's face better than Cuomo's. I just like the sound of her voice. She just seems smarter than he does." And doesn't matter that all those things happen to be true, but even if they weren't true, in politics, it matters.

TRUMP: Right.

CUOMO: The President benefits greatly from traits of his being ascribed as strengths when, to me, they scream out as weaknesses.

TRUMP: Yes.

CUOMO: You know who he is, at his core, when there was no camera around and the people who have been around him in his formative stages.

TRUMP: Yes.

CUOMO: Give some context to me about what that means to you as a clinician.

TRUMP: The simplest way I could put it, which may be one of the more effective ways to put it, is that Donald is a psychologically, deeply damaged man, based on his upbringing and the situation with his parents. He is not going to get better, and he is, without question, going to get worse.

CUOMO: Why is he going to get worse? He's already, you know, in his 70s. Isn't he kind of fully cooked?

TRUMP: Well, it depends on what you mean. In terms of his character, yes, his habits, yes, because I don't think he's interested in changing them. But, no, I mean, illnesses untreated deteriorate over time so.

CUOMO: So, not just damage, you think he's got sickness?

TRUMP: Yes, I do. And I think, you know, a lot of people have diagnosed him and, you know, without knowing him personally but, you know, there are - there is plenty of evidence to support some of those diagnoses.

And he's untreated. He's not interested in being treated. He has no insight. He has no psychological awareness of his situation.

And again, one of the most devastating things is that people who claim to care for him aren't helping him. If they truly cared for him, the last place in the world they would want him to be is the Oval Office. And yet they do nothing. CUOMO: The clinicians always use the term "Narcissist." But can't that apply to just about anybody and anything? Why do you think that attaches to him?

TRUMP: Well, you know, there's a colloquial sense in which we mean narcissism, which is just sort of full of one's self, but.

CUOMO: I mean he is a politician. You know what I mean? He's President of the United States. You rarely meet them where they're all about everybody else all the time. You know --

TRUMP: Sort of but --

CUOMO: -- their profession is kind of everything going through them.

TRUMP: Yes, of course. But, you know, he didn't become this way for well whenever he started being a politician, I'm not - I'm not really sure because he's run for President many times.

But he's been this way since he was a teenager at least. So, it's not - it's not as if there is new evidence to support the diagnosis.

But again, I think that when you're - when you're looking at somebody's pathologies, it's not just how they come across. It's also how it affects them and their day-to-day functioning.

So - although, again, that's also hard to suss out because he's, as I say in the book, institutionalized to some degree. He's protected by the fact that he doesn't really need to live in, or support himself, in the real world.

CUOMO: And how does that change the analysis for you?

TRUMP: It just makes it very difficult to see how his functioning is affected because the context in which he's functioning is so small. You know, he doesn't have to negotiate the real world, like the rest of us do.

And, quite honestly, he hasn't - he never really has had to. You know, he's gone from my grandparents' house, to my grandfather's business, to Trump - The Trump Organization, to the Oval Office.

And those have all been fairly contained, controlled environments, in which his needs have been entirely taken care of by other people.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[21:15:00]

CUOMO: Look, it's just tremendous insight into a family. And we are how we're raised, right? And we're seeing that in real-time now. So, what concerns Mary Trump most about her uncle, less than four months out from Election Day?

Our conversation continues. You're going to want to hear it, next.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: So, why now? Why not during the campaign? It's a big question, right, about why the timing of Mary Trump's book, going public, with this blistering account of what he is in a way that nobody else could really tell us until now.

So what's her answer? Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TEXT: ONE ON ONE.

CUOMO: What is your biggest concern?

TRUMP: That he be allowed to continue unfettered throughout this extraordinary confluence of crises we're facing, at the moment, and that don't - do not seem at all to be improving and, in fact, every day seem to be getting worse.

It's very, very concerning. And I truly hope that the American people see it that way and, you know, make the right choice when we're able to make that choice in November.

CUOMO: Is it hard for you to say this about your uncle?

[21:20:00]

TRUMP: It's not, you know, it's not something I - let's put it this way, it's I wish I didn't have to. But somebody's got to say it. And I believe that I'm the only person in my family, who is willing to, and I'm one, of the few people, who has the insight, in order to be able to.

CUOMO: How do they feel about what you did?

TRUMP: I don't know. I haven't spoken to anybody. You know, I can only speculate based on Donald's statement. I would - I would guess they're not happy about it. But I --

CUOMO: Well, there was the lawsuit to try to stop the book. That was brought by --

TRUMP: Yes.

CUOMO: -- your other uncle, not by the President. But --

TRUMP: Right.

CUOMO: -- do you believe the President was aware of the legal effort and in favor of it?

TRUMP: Oh, I believe he was the driving force behind it.

CUOMO: They just had somebody else carry the ball.

TRUMP: Yes. And that's exactly what happened 20 years ago.

CUOMO: Now that's important. So, it's not fair to you to say, "Yes, they're not talking to you now because they're mad because you, you know, you just pissed off the whole family" --

TRUMP: Right.

CUOMO: -- "By writing the book." You had already had a major break with the family 20 years ago.

TRUMP: Right.

CUOMO: So, are you in - so, when you say "I'm the only one who would do it," is that because you share an opinion about Donald Trump that the rest of your family doesn't?

TRUMP: I think, most importantly, it's because I'm not afraid of him, and I don't feel loyalty in a way they may. Because I believe that loyalty is a two-way street, and I don't see the benefit in pledging loyalty to somebody who would never pledge a loyalty to me.

So, you know, I'm unhindered by either of those considerations. But much more importantly, you know, that's not enough of a reason to be doing this. It simply means that I'm free to.

The reason to do it is because of the incredible seemingly out-of- control crisis we're in the midst of.

CUOMO: Why didn't you do it when he was running?

TRUMP: I thought about it. I thought about it long and hard. But there were three crucial reasons.

One is there was absolutely no reason for me to think it would make a difference. There's a concept called learned helplessness, and it runs very deep in my family, when you just sort of feel trapped by circumstances and no sense of empowerment at all or sense that anything you do would matter. So, there was that. Also in the con --

CUOMO: So, what changed about that?

TRUMP: Well, most importantly, what changed is that, thanks to Susanne Craig, and who - without whom, none of this would have happened, and Russ Buettner, I finally had something concrete. You know, before the election, it would have been my opinion, you know, my assessment, my complaining, my being bitter, wanting revenge, what have you.

After "The New York Times" article, like I had solid proof that there was something concretely wrong with his behavior and things he had done. And that made an extraordinary difference in, not my willingness certainly, but my ability to feel like I could make a difference.

CUOMO: What does it mean to you that there is a good chance that his base will disregard the book completely? I know it's selling like crazy. But there are plenty of people, in this country, who have an appetite, an insatiable appetite --

TRUMP: Yes.

CUOMO: -- for negative things about the President.

TRUMP: Sure.

CUOMO: But his base will likely dismiss it. What does that tell you about the power that your uncle does have over people?

TRUMP: You know, I think that that base exists regardless of who's in the White House. And I never thought for a second that I could sway any of those people's opinions.

I mean, after everything this country's gone through, if, you know, Charlottesville didn't change their minds, if kids being kidnapped from their parents and caged on the border didn't change their minds, I mean, the list is endless and could go on.

[21:25:00]

And now, we look at the fact that, you know, tens of thousands of people are dying because there's no Federal leadership. And people aren't being asked to do the most simple thing, to save their lives and the lives of other Americans. There's absolutely nothing I could say that would change their minds.

CUOMO: The idea that when the - when the stuff happened at the border - not the wall stuff. That was an obvious and easy --

TRUMP: Right, yes.

CUOMO: -- political play for your uncle.

TRUMP: Right. Right.

CUOMO: The kids in the cages, he said he didn't like it. He said it would stop.

TRUMP: Yes.

CUOMO: And then, we wound up reporting out information that they were doing just the opposite. And that messed with my theory that he knows better, and that there is

a human being in there, which there means there is somebody in there who has compassion, it's just selective to his own interests.

TRUMP: Right.

CUOMO: But then, I read your book, and you say, "No, no, no. I remember the guy dropping the N-word in my house. And this is a guy who's had bigoted feelings." I had given him the benefit of the doubt that he was a demagogue but not a bigot.

TRUMP: Right.

CUOMO: You're saying "No."

TRUMP: Right.

CUOMO: You've heard him use language and express ideas that are bigoted. Period!

TRUMP: Yes. Oh, yes. And, to me, that's one of the least surprising things here. You know, and to be frank about it, what's worse? He is endangering, through his rhetoric, and through his actions, the lives of African-Americans in this country every day.

CUOMO: And you think he does so --

TRUMP: He's using --

CUOMO: -- with animus, that he has a problem with Black people?

TRUMP: Yes. Also, he thinks it will work with his base. It's operating on both levels.

CUOMO: But you believe it's in his heart as well. It's not just in his head, as "I need these people to vote for me. Let me just say what I want them to say."

TRUMP: Yes, it's not just a tactic. That's true.

CUOMO: And --

TRUMP: Yes.

CUOMO: -- how did that go over in the family, that kind of talk. Was that just the vibe within the Trump household?

TRUMP: Yes. Look, you grew up in Queens, you know. You know there were some neighborhoods, Jamaica Estates being one of them. It's like a 100 percent White, and probably up until the 60s, a 100 percent Christian.

There was no tolerance for difference. You know, when the first Italian-American family moved into the neighborhood, it was a scandal, and my grandfather was horrified by it. So yes, it was just - it was the atmosphere, in which we grew up.

CUOMO: That's why we were all over in Holliswood, across 188th Street.

TRUMP: That's right. And that's why I'm --

CUOMO: That's where all the Italian down the streets were.

TRUMP: Right. And I'm - that's why I'm extremely grateful I grew up in Jamaica, which was a world away from Jamaica Estates.

CUOMO: So, you're not surprised that he has taken these, whether it's Charlottesville, or what's going on with Black Lives Matter. That's not just political opportunism. You're saying, "No, the guy's a racist. He has a" --

TRUMP: Right.

CUOMO: -- "problem with them."

TRUMP: Yes. And what's the only thing that's shocking is how many people don't think that that's a line they can cross. It's so disturbing.

CUOMO: And there were stories about him, you know, when we were investigating him years ago about his net worth that he had the same kinds of prejudices about Jewish people as well, that that's who had to count his money and, you know, notions like that --

TRUMP: Yes.

CUOMO: -- that we had largely dismissed because we felt like that can't be true. But you're saying, "No, there's a character flaw in there."

TRUMP: I'm saying that it was perfectly acceptable in my family, starting - starting with my grandfather, to have those ideas about difference. It wasn't tolerated. It wasn't - it wasn't valued. And it certainly wasn't respected.

CUOMO: Now, to the extent that you can be wrong, you can't be wrong about something that's your opinion, because it's how you feel.

TRUMP: Right.

CUOMO: One of the things that made headlines is you say you were told very often a story about him cheating on his SATs, having somebody else take them.

TRUMP: Yes.

CUOMO: The man in question, Mr. Shapiro passed away, I think, in 1999. His - is that wrong?

TRUMP: Yes, because I don't believe that's the Joe Shapiro we're talking about.

CUOMO: Ah, so, it's someone else.

TRUMP: There's no way to know that.

CUOMO: Because he has a widow named Pam Shriver. And she says --

TRUMP: Yes. Pam Shriver.

CUOMO: -- it can't be him because they didn't meet until they were in college. You're saying, "Wrong Shapiro."

TRUMP: Yes. You know, and I feel awful that Pam Shriver has had to be bombarded with this question because if you look at the timeline, yes, it's impossible. They met at Penn. Donald needed somebody to take the SATs when he was at Fordham in order to get into Penn.

And, you know, the other thing that's - that's been dismissed is the fact that, you know, in New York City, the name Joe Shapiro isn't exactly unique.

CUOMO: Fair point. But the inability to prove it, why is that not a --

TRUMP: Yes.

CUOMO: -- discounting factor for you?

[21:30:00]

TRUMP: Well, it was a story I've been told. And, like any other family, you know, stories are passed down. And that's why even though I wasn't there at the time, you know, I can vouch for it, because I trust my source, who was somebody close to Donald.

And I have no reason to make that story up. The book would have been just fine without it.

But it does speak to his character and that this has been part of his character all along, or at least since he was a teenager. So, I think it's time to start asking my family that question directly.

CUOMO: Are his followers coming after you?

TRUMP: No. No, not so far.

CUOMO: I hope - I hope that continues. Mark Meadows is now --

TRUMP: Thank you.

CUOMO: -- the Chief of Staff. He was a long-time Congressman obviously. He says "The racist thing, that can't be. I've been around him for years. I've never heard him use that language."

Your response?

TRUMP: That's so unlikely that I find it difficult to take at face value. I'm not entirely sure why Mark Meadows would say anything other than that. But I don't --

CUOMO: If he wants his job, I don't know why he would either. TRUMP: Yes, well, of course.

CUOMO: Last question. If you could speak directly to your uncle, what would you say?

TRUMP: He needs to resign. It's time. It's - in addition to being terrible for the country, it's bad for him.

He needs to step down, and let us start the very difficult work, ahead of us, of trying to right the wrongs and, you know, re-establish or reconnect to who we want to be, going forward, and we cannot do that with Donald in the Oval Office.

CUOMO: When he says "But they love me. I had 60-something million people vote for me. It's just the Democrats and the media trying to kill me. But the silent majority is for me, Mary."

TRUMP: Yes.

CUOMO: "I'm like the biggest thing ever in the Republican Party."

TRUMP: Well, let's just say, for the sake of argument, that 2016 was an anomaly, in all sorts of ways, and we can't really litigate that at the moment.

But, right now, it seems pretty obvious that people are not showing him the real polls. You know, they're not being straight with him about his performance in head-to-heads with Joe Biden in certain swing states, and he's being allowed to believe what he needs to believe.

CUOMO: Mary Trump, I have to say that this is - everything about this Administration has been highly unorthodox.

And the kind of insight coming from somebody who does the kind of work you do, about the character and nature of the President of the United States, is truly a unique offering. I appreciate you doing it.

I'm sure that this isn't easy. I'm sure it's not going to be easy going forward. But I appreciate you taking the time to discuss your experience and your book with us.

TRUMP: Chris, thank you so much. This was - this was really great. Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CUOMO: Remarkably candid Mary Trump, who just has a very tough basis of experience to match. And there may be more insight into the President's psyche tonight from something that's just happened inside the walls of the White House.

Just when you think you've seen everything, wait until you see this, next.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[21:35:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: And so, we just spoke to Mary Trump, and she paints quite a portrait of the President of the United States, who is obviously her uncle, calling him deeply psychologically damaged. Remember, she's a psychologist. And says he's going to get worse.

Now, we can't speak to that, but we can speak to the pettiness when it comes to Trump and some actual portraits. Let's go over to Kaitlan Collins at the White House.

Here we are, on a Friday night. And what's happening with Presidential paintings?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: I mean this is probably one of the more stunning stories that you're going to hear out of the Trump Administration, Chris.

But my colleague, Jeff Zeleny, has learned that when you walk the White House, you go into the Grand Foyer, and they normally have the two portraits of the most recent Presidents hanging up.

CUOMO: Right.

COLLINS: Right now, that's Bill Clinton and George W. Bush because Barack Obama's portrait has not been officially unveiled yet.

And we have learned that in the last week, since last Wednesday, the Trump White House has had those portraits moved, and they are no longer there in the Grand Foyer.

And instead, they've been moved to the old family dining room, which if you're not familiar with how the White House is laid out, that's a room that visitors to the White House do not often go to.

Right now, they're storing old furniture and tablecloths inside of it. And that is where they have put the portraits of Bill Clinton and George W. Bush.

And instead, they've replaced the ones in the Foyer with a portrait of William McKinley and Teddy Roosevelt, who of course were President over a century ago. And those are the ones hanging in there.

And so, we asked the White House why these portraits were moved, and why this is happening right now, in the middle of a pandemic, with so much going on? They did not get back to us with a request for comment for our - for request for comment.

But it's just really striking because, you know, we've heard so far, you know, we've heard from John Bolton, in his book, about just how much President Trump despised George W. Bush. He's made it pretty clear. We obviously know his feelings on Bill Clinton.

And I've got to point out, you know, where they were before, when the President would typically host state leaders, like he did with the Mexican President, last Wednesday, or when he would normally come down the staircase from where he is on the third floor of the residence, he would see these pictures. You know, they were in his view.

[21:40:00]

And now they've been moved to this room, where very few people go, maybe just the officials who work inside the White House, inside the East Wing of the White House, and they are no longer in the President's point of view.

And it's just really striking that he would take the time and the effort to move these pictures out of a very prominent viewing space, in the White House, and instead put up two pictures of Presidents, who've served, you know, so long ago.

CUOMO: Now, anything about why the two replacements? Teddy Roosevelt, we heard Trump talk about him a little bit. William McKinley, I mean, you know, he was a 20-something President, assassinated. Why him?

COLLINS: That's what's so unclear. It's not like, you know, he put someone else in that position.

He put people who have served so long ago. Teddy Roosevelt, of course, we know the President does have an affinity for him. William McKinley, it's not really clear why he felt the need to put his picture in there.

And it's just - it's just so striking to the fact that he moved Presidents Bill Clinton and George W. Bush out of right there in prominent view.

It really speaks to not only the focus inside the White House, because they've said, you know, despite the fact that the President had zero events dedicated to COVID-19 this week, that he is focused on the pandemic. But instead, you know, clearly, they were moving pictures around.

And I think the fact that the White House didn't comment on it, even though we asked them probably several hours ago, for something to say, they - they said nothing. And I think that probably says more than, if they had given a statement.

CUOMO: Yes. Often, the lack of an answer gives you the greatest insight. And, as we know, if there had been a plan, if this was about something, if there was a good answer, they would have one.

Thank you very much on a Friday night. Did not see this coming, don't know why it is coming. I could think of a 100 other things that should be coming. But Kaitlan, thankfully, it's coming from you. I appreciate it. Be well and thank you.

COLLINS: Of course.

CUOMO: All right.

So, you know, this is where we are, right? We're desperate for a plan. The Task Force is putting out guidance for states that's being hidden, the mask messaging all over the place, guidance for states all over the place.

So what? What do we do now? Well we have to stay focused on what matters. You have to cover what happens with the President. We have to show you what he's about and what he's not about.

But if there's one thing we all agree on, it's what? We want to protect our first responders, right, especially during a pandemic, right?

Americans, all of us, even the President, applaud the healthcare workers. Put signs in your yards, good for you, thanking them for their work, beautiful. I love when in New York, and other places, they were shaking those bells at 7 o'clock, and bopping their horns, ever since the pandemic began.

Now, we've shown you those cheers and elsewhere why? Because that's what matters.

But what have we not seen? As COVID cases, as deaths soar, the frontline workers are getting beat up the worst. They're still in need of PPE in places, you know, masks, gowns, gloves.

But what about the mental health of these workers, so much death, so much stress, hopelessness? We don't talk about it enough. And that is a mistake.

It is certainly important to our next guest, Dr. Esther Choo, Professor of Emergency Medicine at Oregon Health & Science University.

It's good to have you. Welcome to PRIME TIME.

DR. ESTHER CHOO, PROFESSOR OF EMERGENCY MEDICINE, OREGON HEALTH & SCIENCE UNIVERSITY: Thank you, Chris. It's nice to be with you.

CUOMO: First, the realness of the issue. We know we live in a society, where it's like "Mental health? Don't be so sad. Get over it. Toughen up." What is the reality of mental health as it is affecting people on the frontlines of this pandemic?

CHOO: Yes. I appreciate this discussion.

I mean, recognize that in regular times mental healthcare is a problem for healthcare workers. It's extremely common. But we have this culture of stoicism, in which it is not OK to say that you're depressed or that you're anxious or that you need professional help. We pretend like care only goes in one direction, from the healthcare providers outwards, and not in this direction. And there's a lot of reasons for that. A lot of them are just cultural. We like to pretend that we've invincible.

And some of them are there can be real professional consequences to saying that you've had mental healthcare. So that's, you know, that's kind of the background to this.

And then we go into COVID-19, where we've had to face stress at work, on a level that we haven't seen in our entire careers, where there's so much uncertainty, where there's such grave illness and death and stress and isolation.

We're constantly terrified about getting the disease or bringing it back to our families. It's - we can't ignore this issue. We can't pretend to be invincible. And, you know, as this rages on, month after month, we can't pretend to be heroes all the time.

[21:45:00]

CUOMO: So, one of the cases that brought this into very sharp focus, during the pandemic, was that of Dr. Lorna Breen, New York City Doctor, NewYork-Presbyterian/Allen Hospital, Upper Manhattan. Star! Star!

Everyone around her loved her, checked every box of greatness, even during the pandemic, rose to the challenge uniquely. Mental health, mental illness, succumbs, commits suicide.

Her family, loved ones, say, "No, no, if this could happen to her, it's something that we have to take way more seriously than we do." They're trying to get legislation done. They're trying to have a big effort about what's going on around this to let Dr. Breen's death be a warning for so many.

Context for you?

CHOO: Yes, I - you know, Dr. Breen was an emergency medicine physician. My field is very small. I know many of her friends and know her department well.

It's actually a - it's a little hard for me to talk about her death and, of course, without knowing her, I don't know exactly the circumstances that led to her suicide. I don't think any of us ever will.

But I will say that we set up a Perfect Storm for people to experience severe depression, to have suicidal thoughts without much help.

You know, 30 percent of medical students experience depression by the time they've graduated. 30 percent of residents experience depression by the time they're done with their training.

The vast majority of physicians don't seek help, even when they recognize that they need it because of the things that we've talked about.

And then, when you do admit that you need help, when you take leave for this one particular type of healthcare need, which is really, you know, mental health is just health, mental healthcare is just healthcare.

CUOMO: But people don't think of it that way.

CHOO: But when you take leave or seek care --

CUOMO: We don't do it. You know what I --

CHOO: They do not.

CUOMO: I mean I, look --

CHOO: Yes. They do not.

CUOMO: And we want us to. But we have to own the reality also, OK? So, Dr. Breen, she was worried about herself. But there's a stigma, especially in your field, somewhat ironic, but real. I've covered it in other cases.

CHOO: Real.

CUOMO: Where "I can't be telling these other people. This is going to hurt my career advancement. I have to be able to take the pressure here. I have to be the healer. I can't be the sick, so I don't say anything."

That would never be true, if she had diabetes, even Type 1 diabetes. You'd come out and you'd say it right away. You get you monitor. Boom, you're an example of life on the mend.

Not with this. How do we change?

CHOO: That's exactly right. You know, you go out for surgery, and everybody sends you with well wishes cards --

CUOMO: Right.

CHOO: -- meals, flowers. You go out for mental health or for substance use treatment, and no one says a single word. And we'd change it by normalizing it. And we start talking about it.

Chris, I really have to thank you for talking about your own clinical depression. That was incredibly moving and inspiring to me and many others. Having you just state it, plain as day, is the kind of thing that we need to do.

It's not say, "You know, wait, hold on a second, I'm going to tell you something really awful," but really just - just talk about it like we might talk about another health problem.

You talked about your experience having Coronavirus. And then, with the same kind of tone, you talked about your experience with clinical depression. And that, frankly, is what we all need to do. And, of course --

CUOMO: Does not go over well.

CHOO: -- getting started with that conversation is the hardest part.

CUOMO: Does not go over well, by the way.

CHOO: So, yes.

CUOMO: It allows your enemies, you know, it's a great joke line, right?

CHOO: Right.

CUOMO: You know, "Ah, now what he says" --

CHOO: Yes.

CUOMO: -- "makes a lot more sense. The guy is crazy." But I'll tell you why. I saw that coming. You know what I mean? I come from a business and a life of connivance. I know when someone's going to come at me about something.

I did it anyway because it's too big and too real. And I'm not going to let the stigma power me. I don't want that example for my kids that they have to know that I see therapy as I go to therapy to try to get my body back.

I go to therapy to try to get my mind right again, and understanding things, because I don't see them the right way, the same way I don't understand why my lungs aren't recovering the right way.

And with COVID, you guys are going to have - well not you, in Emergency Medicine, I hope, but you're going to see a lot of mental health attributes to people who have the Tale of that Tornado of a Virus.

Because I'm lucky enough that I have a clinician, and he was able to say, "Man, you've got some heavy mood stuff coming at you all the sudden about this. Let's look at your blood."

CHOO: Yes.

CUOMO: "Let's see." Now, imagine if that had been the protocol --

CHOO: Yes.

CUOMO: -- in place for Dr. Breen, that there was constant care, just like you'd go in like "Man, my back is killing me." And someone's like "You better go to the chiropractor." You know, "Oh, my knee is swelling up."

CHOO: Yes.

CUOMO: "Well you better go get some PT at a minimum, if not seeing orthopedist," you know. "I have these mood swings, man, I just feel like it's just darkness." "You better go get some therapy right away." We need to get there.

CHOO: That's exactly it.

And we should expect it because, I mean, there was a study done at NewYork-Presbyterian Hospital, where they - at the peak of their surge, they showed that healthcare workers reported, 50 percent of them almost, reported depression, as they were working in the hospital, as New York City was surging. 30 percent of them reported anxiety symptoms.

[21:50:00]

So, I don't think we should treat it as you might have these symptoms. I think we should treat it as you're probably going to experience this at some time, so let's expect it.

We'll tell you all that this is normal, particularly in these times, and we're going to put in place a lot of services to support you as you go through that part of the Coronavirus experience.

CUOMO: I mean, look, Doc, it's as simple as this.

If you guys, because you're on your feet so often, and you weren't wearing those funky shoes already, and Crocs and all that other stuff, and people said to you, "Oh, fallen arches, we got to get you different physical therapy. We have to get you the right shoes, so you can do the job." We have to treat this the same exact way.

Conversations like this help. I promised the family, I promised myself, I will not let the issue go. I will talk about it all the time in every manifestation. It's not unusual to me.

Dr. Esther Choo, thank you for what you're doing. Thank you for healing us.

CHOO: Thank you so much, Chris.

CUOMO: And thank you for taking this issue on. God bless. You're always welcome.

CHOO: Thank you.

CUOMO: All right. We're going to delve into another overlooked concern. The toll the virus is taking on our minority communities in America.

I always argue to you, the pandemic and social justice, there's a conflation. There's a combination there. Dr. Fauci, the most credible man in America has weighed in, from a medical perspective, the reality.

And, from a societal perspective, we'll speak to a very valued voice in this House, W. Kamau Bell. He's got some good stuff coming up. We'll discuss it next.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[21:55:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: W. Kamau Bell, always ready to embrace tough conversations on his CNN Original Series, "UNITED SHADES OF AMERICA," more important now than ever.

Nation finds itself in the grip of the crisis of racial disparities, inherent injustice, Coronavirus, which plays on those same themes. You know you have protests over police brutality. But this pandemic is hitting us unevenly as well, and it mirrors the injustice.

Kamau is kicking off his fifth season with a unique look at White supremacy and institutional racism in America. Here's a taste.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JANET CHEATHAM BELL, WRITER, EDITOR, INDEPENDENT SCHOLAR, MOTHER OF W. KAMAU BELL: As soon as we walked in the door, the store detective would follow us. I said "Be really careful," and I pointed out the store detective because we're always being watched.

W. KAMAU BELL, CNN HOST, UNITED SHADES OF AMERICA: I remember that lesson, and it sticks with me today, so much so that I'm aware of, when I'm in stores, even now, as a fully grown adult, where my hands are.

And then, you know, as a kid, I was aware of it, because I didn't want to be arrested. And then, and it's - now it's (ph) become aware of it because I don't want to be killed.

JANET CHEATHAM BELL: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: Man, that is heartbreaking, brother Bell, to hear the ease with which you speak with a loved one about "I could get killed now, if it goes the wrong way," and the answer is "Yes." I mean, we got to do better than this.

W. KAMAU BELL: Yes.

CUOMO: And we see it in the pandemic also. Who's getting sick more? Poor, Brown. Who's dying more? Poor, Brown. Who has to work more? Poor, Brown. It's part of social justice. How do you take it on? W. KAMAU BELL: I think we have to be honest about the fact that people who are getting sick the most, the poor Black folks, you're just saying the poor Brown folks, you're just saying the poor indigenous folks, the system is designed to make sure they get sick because we're on the bottom.

I mean, the system is built on top of us, as we talk about in the episode. This is how the system is designed to work. And so, we have to really invest in tearing the system down, and starting over, if we want things to change.

CUOMO: Hope. Where do you find it?

W. KAMAU BELL: Well I was in therapy this morning. I want to - I want to support the therapy conversation that was going, so #BlackGuyInTherapy.

And, you know, I wouldn't have had - I wouldn't have had three kids if I didn't have some hope. I'm hoping to hand them a better world. I thought I was going to do it. It's looking slim now. But I'm going to do everything I can.

CUOMO: And, look, you have the perfect program. I must say I was blown away the first time that you were talking with the White hate guys and the - where do you get the ease of candor, in sitting across from somebody, who you know hates what you are?

W. KAMAU BELL: On some level, I know that I don't believe their reasons for hating me. I think that's where it starts. It's like the thing you hate me for is not real. So, I'm not going to buy into it.

Now, if there's a threat of physical violence, then my - then my blood pressure goes up, which is why I got these bills.

But the act is, is that I don't believe the thing that you want me to believe about myself. And I know the longer I'm quiet, the more you will reveals things about yourself and surprise yourself, and we'll get to a real conversation.

CUOMO: Beautiful! I got to tell you, I love to watch it in action.

So, then you hear Mary Trump. No reason not to believe this lady, OK? Everything we can vet about her comes out in her favor. She doesn't like the President. OK. You can - you can be OK with that or not. But "He is a bigot," she says.

Now, I say all the time. Don beats me up about this, on and off TV. I say he's a demagogue. I don't believe he's a bigot. I think he just plays this to advantage.

She says "You're wrong. He's a bigot. I've heard him use the N-word. I've heard him talk about Jews. He's a bad guy who believes bad things about people who are different than he."

He won't mention systemic racism. How do we get change when the man at the top may be a bigot, who doesn't believe in the Movement? W. KAMAU BELL: Well, first of all, both things can be true. You can be a demagogue and a bigot.

CUOMO: True.

W. KAMAU BELL: So, I'm going to both sides this conversation. But I think we have to really focus on the system. We can't - we have an opportunity to vote Trump out.

But even if Trump stays, we have to focus on the system. The system that is putting secret police in Portland to pull protesters off the street, that's not a - that system was in place before Trump got here.

So, we have to focus on changing the system, which is about protests, organization and activism.

CUOMO: I've always been a fan. I love what you're doing. It matters so much. It's a show that someone my age needs to watch and encourage my kids to watch. It's that good. It's that important. And that is all because of you. A man meets the moment he's in.

W. KAMAU BELL: Thank you.

CUOMO: You're meeting it. Kamau Bell --

W. KAMAU BELL: Thank you.

CUOMO: -- the best to you and the kids.

W. KAMAU BELL: Thank you very much.

CUOMO: All right, brother, good luck.

All right, be sure to tune in. All new season of "UNITED SHADES OF AMERICA" premiering this Sunday, 10:00 P.M. Eastern and Pacific, only on CNN. Thank you for watching.