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U.S. Coronavirus Deaths Surpass 156,000; Trump On The Rising Death Toll: It Is What it Is; Third U.S. Company Releases Study Showing Its Coronavirus Vaccine Is Safe, Elicits Immune Response; NYC Health Commissioner Resigns, Says Experts Were Sidelined; State Education Official: NYC Plan To Reopen Schools "Looked More Like An Outline, Not A Plan"; NYPD Reporting Sharp Rise In Shooting, Murders, Burglaries; At Least 73 Killed, Thousands Hurt By Beirut Explosion. Aired 5-6p ET
Aired August 04, 2020 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[17:00:00]
PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: All right, Tom Sater, thank you so much for that.
I'm Pamela Brown in for Jake Tapper. Thanks for watching. Our coverage on CNN continues right now.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Welcome to our viewers here in the United States and around the world. I'm Wolf Blitzer in THE SITUATION ROOM.
We're following breaking news. We're standing by to see if President Trump takes questions from reporters at a coronavirus briefing about to get underway after a jaw dropping interview where the President said of the more than 150,000 deaths here in the United States and I'm quoting now, "it is what it is."
He then went on to demonstrate a seemingly stark lack of understanding of the fundamentals of this pandemic.
The virus has now killed more than 156,000 Americans, .7 million people with new death rates surging here in the United States in 27 states.
Let's get the very latest right now. Our National Correspondent Sara Sidner is joining us.
Sara, there's some encouraging vaccine news that we're hearing about. Update our viewers.
SARA SIDNER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Wolf, you know a third U.S. company has now released a study saying that their results from testing a vaccine is safe and creates an immune response. Now, this study has not been reviewed by other scientists, but it is potential encouraging news as they move on to the next phase of testing.
This as the President is trying to convince the American people that the coronavirus in the United States is under control when the numbers show it clearly is not.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think it's under control. I'll tell you what --
JONATHAN SWAN, AXIOS REPORTER: How? A 1000 Americans are dying a day.
TUMP: They are dying. That's true. And you have -- it is what it is. But that doesn't mean we aren't doing everything we can. It's under control as much as you can control it.
SIDNER (voice-over): The President arguing there is not much more the U.S. can do to combat the coronavirus pandemic, medical experts disagree.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just categorically reject, we can't do something about it or that the status quo is acceptable.
SIDNER: With more than 4.7 million diagnosed cases and more than 156,000 deaths.
DR. JAY VARKEY, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOT OF MEDICINE, EMORY UNIVERSITY: The U.S. is the fourth worst performing country in the world. We have 4 percent of the world's population, yet we account for 25 percent of the world's deaths. That is unacceptable.
SIDNER: New case rates are steady or down in 42 states. But often, the numbers are steady at a very high level with Florida about to become the second state to total a half million cases during the pandemic.
GOV. RON DESANTIS, (R) FLORIDA: I think by the time we get, you know, a couple weeks into the future, I think we're going to continue to see the prevalence decline, and that'll be a very, very good thing.
SIDNER: But some Midwestern states are newly surging.
MAYOR QUINTON LUCAS, (D) KANSAS CITY, MISSOURI: I just hope removing all partisanship that people recognize our cities need help, people need help, we need to get ahead of I think further spread.
SIDNER: And while cases may be declining in many places, daily death tolls across the country continue to climb.
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: This is a very serious situation that our country is facing. I don't -- you know, you don't need anybody to tell you that you just need to look at the numbers.
SIDNER: The Georgia World Congress Center in Atlanta turned back into a makeshift hospital due to a rise in cases there.
Despite the worrying data for the U.S. as a whole, some citizens are still throwing caution to the wind. Another massive house party, this time at a mansion in Los Angeles, a potential coronavirus, petri dish that ended in gunfire, one person killed, three shot. LT. CHRIS RAMIREZ, LOS ANGELES POLICE: We as a public have to be conscious of everybody else. Everybody's public safety, our own safety.
SIDNER: Schools continue to be the great unknown, some communities eager to start up, others more concerned with the risks of sending kids and teachers back into classrooms.
DR. DEBBI BURDICK, SUPERINTENDENT, CAVE CREEK UNIFIED SCHOOL DISTRICT: : We can make great academic decisions, but I don't think talking about somebody's health, not knowing all their underlying conditions are the types of things that we should be deciding.
SIDNER: Gwinnett County, Georgia's largest school system, now reporting some 260 public school employees are staying home after testing positive for COVID-19 or coming into contact with someone who has.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SIDNER: And this just in to CNN, the Mississippi governor has decided to order a mask mandate for the next couple of weeks. And that mandate extends to people in schools saying that both teachers and students must wear masks. That is because Mississippi is seeing a major spike in cases there. Wolf.
BLITZER: Like several other states. Thanks very much Sara Sidner for that report.
Let's go to the White House right now. Our Chief White House Correspondent Jim Acosta is standing by.
Jim, the President seems to be showing a stunningly cavalier attitude toward this health disaster.
JIM ACOSTA, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: That's right. And an administration official is telling CNN that others on the Coronavirus Task Force here at the White House agree with Dr. Deborah Birx's stark assessment that the pandemic in the U.S. has entered a new phase and that COVID-19 has become, "extraordinarily widespread."
[17:05:14]
President Trump lashed out at Birx's after she made that remark, but it's the President's latest comments on the virus that are raising questions about his grasp on reality. The President is insisting the virus is, "under control" telling the news site Axios, it is what it is.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ACOSTA (voice-over): For President Trump each appearance in front of the cameras brings another departure from reality on the coronavirus, the latest example his interview with Axios. Asked about the soaring number of COVID-19 deaths in the U.S., the President says "it is what it is." TRUMP: I think it's under control. I'll tell you what --
SWAN: How? A 1000 Americans are dying a day.
TRUMP: They are dying. That's true. And you have -- it is what it is. But that doesn't mean we aren't doing everything we can. It's under control as much as you can control it.
ACOSTA: The President tried to insist the data is on his side. But that argument fell flat too.
SWAN: I'm talking about death as a proportion of population. That's why the U.S. is really bad.
TRUMP: Well --
SWAN: Much worse than South Korea versus South Korea.
TRUMP: No. But you have to go by the cases.
ACOSTA: In Mr. Trump's world, the U.S. is leading in its response.
Well, Hold it. Hold it.
ACOSTA: Why does the U.S. have so many deaths?
TRUMP: Hold it.
ACOSTA: U.S. has so many deaths compared to --
TRUMP: Hold it.
ACOSTA: -- so many countries around the world?
TRUMP: We haven't been given enough may -- I'm not talking about me. Vice President, the task force have not been given the kind of credit. The United States has done an amazing job, a great job.
ACOSTA: But that's not true, which is why the President hammer the coordinator of his Coronavirus Task Force, Dr. Deborah Birx, for acknowledging reality.
DR. DEBORAH BIRX, WHITE HOUSE CORONAVIRUS TASK FORCE RESPONSE COORDINATOR: What we're seeing today is different from March and April. It is extraordinarily widespread.
ACOSTA: After slamming her comments as, "pathetic," a remark that left Birx feeling stung. Mr. Trump appeared to dial back his criticism.
TRUMP: I think we're doing very well. I told Dr. Birx, I think we're doing very well. She was in my office a little while ago. She personally have a lot of respect for.
ACOSTA: The President is also taking some personal jabs at the late civil rights icon John Lewis, who was laid to rest last week.
TRUMP: He chose not to come to my inauguration. He chose -- I don't -- I never met John Lewis, actually. I don't believe.
SWAN: Do you find him impressive?
TRUMP: I can't say one way or the other. I find a lot of people impressive.
Nobody has done more --
SWAN: Right.
TRUMP: -- for black Americans than have.
SWAN: I understand.
TRUMP: He should have come, I think he made a big mistake.
ACOSTA: The President is reversing himself on the subject of voting by mail at least in Florida after blasting the practice in the past, tweeting, "Whether you call it vote by mail or absentee voting, in Florida the election system is safe and secure, tried and true. So in Florida, I encourage all to request a ballot and vote by mail."
CNN has learned, Florida Republicans appeal to the president to back off. White House officials insists Mr. Trump is being consistent.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And will he admit now what is the fact that voting across the country by mail is safe and secure and tried and true?
KAYLEIGH MCENANY, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Well, the President has always said that absentee voting for a reason is different than mass mail out voting like what Nevada is seeking to do, which leads to mass fraud.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is the same thing.
MCENANY: And also, I'd refer you to the campaign on this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ACOSTA: Now as for negotiations on a new coronavirus relief, real time maybe running out a White House official said aides to the president are eyeing various proposals for Mr. Trump to take executive action should both sides in Congress failed to reach an agreement by the end of this week.
There are also signs of divisions inside the administration Chief of Staff Mark Meadows, Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin, both told Republican senators behind closed doors today that they are on the same page when it comes to a deal, never a good sign when different sides of the administration are saying things like that.
And as for how the virus is impacting operations here at the White House, National Security Adviser Robert O'Brien he is back on the job today after testing positive for COVID-19 last week. Wolf.
BLITZER: All right, Jim Acosta, thank you very much. Let's get some more in all of this. Dr. Leana Wen is joining us, the former Health Commissioner of Baltimore.
Dr. Wen, thank you so much for joining us.
Let me get your reaction to these comments from the President. As a doctor of public health expert, does he have any grasp of just how bad this pandemic really is? Right now, more than 156,000 Americans in the past six months alone have died from coronavirus?
DR. LEANA WEN, FORMER BALTIMORE CITY HEALTH COMMISSIONER: I heard the comments, Wolf, about it is what it is. And I was thinking about, imagine if you have a doctor saying that to a patient who just explained all the suffering and pain that they have gone through. It just wouldn't happen.
And I wish that the President and the administration is coming out to acknowledge the grave problem that we're in right now. And to say too that we are not powerless against this virus.
Actually, we know exactly what works. We've done it before. Americans have done it before. Other countries have been able to contain it.
[17:10:02]
And there are things that we can do right now. And that's something that the President can galvanize us around wearing masks, keeping physical distancing, avoiding crowds, not going to bars and restaurants. In this time, we can actually make a big difference. But it starts by acknowledging the problem that we're in right now.
BLITZER: It basically says, you know, we can't control the numbers. Clearly, there are steps that can be taken to control the numbers.
About 1000 Americans, Dr. Wen are dying every single day, and he says, "it is what it is." He seems to doubt that there's more we can do. But there's a lot more that we could do, right?
WEN: Absolutely. And these are the steps that Dr. Fauci, the CDC and really every public health expert has said will make a huge difference if we do them now. And they're relatively straightforward. Something as basic as universal masking, we could save 30,000 to 40,000 lives by the end of the year if we just implement that.
We know that this is a contagious disease that spreads from person to person, so keeping that physical distance, avoiding indoor crowded gatherings, not being with those who are not in our immediate family, those are all things that we can do. And we've seen that states that have implemented these restrictions have been able to turn it around. And so we can all do this as a country.
BLITZER: We did just get the results of this phase one trial of the Novavax vaccine candidate, they found the vaccine, at least so far, this -- it's very early, is safe, creates an immune response. And there have been some other encouraging responses as well from others who are engaged in these respective trials. How encouraging is all of this?
WEN: I think it's very encouraging. I do think that with so many different candidates in the pipeline, that we are having multiple, what we call shots on goal, right, that there are maybe one or even more vaccine candidates that are going to pan out. But I also think that we can't wait until then, because who knows, I mean, maybe it'll be the end of the year. Maybe it'll be early next year that we start having a vaccine available or longer.
But in the meantime, we are having 1000 Americans die per day, which is 100,000 people who could be dead within three months. And so we need to take these other options now as well, while we also aim to get a vaccine and other treatments.
BLITZER: When you look at the number of new cases, the picture seems to be a bit better than it was a few weeks ago, but positivity rates are very high. Are some of these states plateauing at a high level right now, Dr. Wen? Are there areas of the country that you're most worried about?
WEN: I'm worried about really our entire country. There are places that have seemed to plateau, which is good, again, showing that individual actions make a difference and policies make a difference, but they're plateauing at such a high level while other states are catching up. And we don't have nearly enough testing. And so it's quite possible that the rest of the states that look like they're doing OK, actually have ongoing community spread that we're just not picking up.
And so, that's why that type of aggressive action needs to be taken. If we want for schools to reopen in the fall in a couple weeks or a month, then we have to take much more dramatic action that we can now and that action cannot be piecemeal. Because this whack a mole approach is just not going to work.
BLITZER: Yes, that's really important. And as you pointed out at schools are trying to figure out their back to school plans. We've learned that, this is very upsetting, that two Florida teenagers between the ages of 14 and 17 have actually died from the coronavirus. I know that's rare, but how do you protect the kids who may be more vulnerable?
WEN: While you keep the most vulnerable home, whether they are teachers or students or staff, but the problem though, is that you just can't keep a school and the people at the school safe if you have a community that's a hotbed of infection. And so I really worry about the plans to reopen schools if we haven't put into plans into place these other plans that protect the community.
You can think of it almost as a coronavirus budget, that cities have a budget, municipalities have a budget, you determine what's the most important. And if the most essential component is opening schools, then we need to be closing bars and nightclubs and other such nonessential services now to allow for schools to reopen.
BLITZER: Dr. Leana Wen, as usual, thanks so much for joining us. WEN: Thank you.
BLITZER: Up next in New York City Health Commissioner resigns amid this pandemic. We're going to talk about that. The Mayor of New York Bill de Blasio, there you see him, we've got lots to discuss.
Plus, there's breaking news, a massive explosion felt more than 100 miles away. Dozens are dead. Thousands are injured. We'll go live to Beirut for the latest.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[17:19:02]
BLITZER: As the coronavirus pandemic clearly worsens, a surprise resignation by the New York City Health Commissioner. Let's talk about that in more.
Joining us now the Mayor of New York City Bill de Blasio.
Mayor de Blasio, thanks very much for joining us. Your Health Commissioner, Dr. Oxiris Barbot, she resigned in protest today.
"The New York Times" says it obtained a copy of her resignation letter in which she wrote this according to "The Times," "I leave my post today with deep disappointment that during the most critical public health crisis of our lifetime, that the Health Department's incomparable disease control expertise was not used to the degree it could have been."
So in the middle of a global pandemic, your health commissioners essentially saying, Mayor, that you sideline the experts, very serious charge. How do you respond to that?
MAYOR BILL DE BLASIO (D), NEW YORK CITY, NY: Well, first of all, Wolf, disagree respectfully with the initial assessment there. It's a resignation. There is a story statement in there of her own assessment but that's not the same thing as a resignation and protest by any stretch.
[17:20:06]
Look, this is something we've talked about for months here in New York City, using all of our agencies, our public health agency, health and hospitals, which runs 11 hospitals and 70. clinics has tremendous projection capacity out into our communities. It's the operational agency.
Health Department has tremendous expertise. We combine that to create our test and trace score, which is now the largest in the nation, and is helping us to keep our infection level down to 1 percent. That's what I report to New Yorkers this morning. One percent infection level based on the 10s of thousands of tests we're doing every day in New York City. We've had a lowest number of cases per day since the first half of March. A lot is working. And having that test and trace capacity is part of what is working. It's been a group effort of all parts of government coming together and that's what actually works, Wolf.
BLITZER: According to "The New York Times" Dr. Barbot added this, let me read another quote which she said, "Our experts are world renowned for their epidemiology surveillance and response work. The city would be well served by having them at the strategic center of the response, not in the background."
So what do you say to that? Because these accusations she's leveling are she's especially critical, according to the "New York Times" of what you didn't do early on that resulted in a large number of deaths in New York City.
DE BLASIO: Now, Wolf, what you have there in that letter is something that we've talked about, again, for weeks and weeks in the city made very, very clear that we needed to put together a combined effort of multiple agencies to create our test and trace capacity.
That's what's referred to in the letter, Health Department's been an important part of that. Everyone's expertise is being used in a way that allows us to, you know, have an operation that spans the whole city of 8.6 million people.
Now, I'm quite confident that in this crisis, with the lack of testing we had in the beginning, with limited in we had that people all over the country lacked. We made decisions to keep people safe. This was one of the first things, I was one of the first public officials to call for shelter in place. And we did that in New York City.
We move quickly to get people to wear face coverings. We took a lot of steps well before the rest of the country and wasn't perfect by any stretch. But a lot of what we did here worked. And now people all over the country are looking at New York City, and we have one of the lowest rates of infection anywhere.
And we had been the epicenter and now thank God, we're one of the safer places in the country. And that's what matters.
BLITZER: Students are about to return to school. The city is heading into what experts believe will be a very challenging fall and winter. How do you reassure the people of New York City that you're listening to the advice of your public health experts, it's obviously awkward that she resides right in the middle of this pandemic?
DE BLASIO: Look, we brought in a great new health commissioner, Dr. Dave Choksi, who was part of the extraordinarily important work in the initial response to the coronavirus. Setting up our surge capacity in hospitals all over the city. Setting up telemedicine, all of the things that helped us get through, that helped us hold our hospital system and reach 10s of thousands of New Yorkers even if they couldn't get to health care.
He's a proven leader. He is an extraordinary person, Rhodes Scholar, White House fellow, extraordinary talent. He'll be able to come in immediately. He also used to work at our Department of Health before so he'll be able to come in seamlessly keep that going.
But starting schools, Wolf, we are throwing in everything we got. Our schools -- look, we're going to have blended learning. Kids in class, sometimes out of school other times. Anyone who wants to be at home can be at home, that's an option.
But we're going to be cleaning all the time. We're going to have social distancing in every classroom, we're going to have face coverings on every adult and child. We are doing everything you've ever heard of to keep our schools safe.
And that, again, that's our Department Education and all of our health professionals working together.
BLITZER: The spokesman for a New York State's Department of Education, and you know this, he said, you know, your proposals to reopen schools look more like an outline and not a plan, saying that other plans were more detailed. Are you going to provide an updated plan with a lot more specifics, Mayor?
DE BLASIO: Wolf, we have an extraordinarily clear plan we've been talking about for weeks. And one of the things I said is we are not even going to open schools if we're above a 3 percent infection rate, or if we go above a 3 percent infection rate at any point over a seven-day period, we'll shut them back down again. We have a very rigorous standard, much more rigorous than even the national standards.
And we sent a plan forward that really accounted for what our parents need, our kids need. Most of our parents overwhelmingly. We've surveyed them, they want to be back in school.
But I'll tell you something else, Wolf, we have 1800 schools, 1.1 million kids biggest by far in the country, and we're sending in a specific plan to the state for each and every one of those 1,800 schools.
[17:25:00]
So we're going to be well covered with plans to keep students, adults, educators, parents, everyone safe.
BLITZER: Another sensitive issue, a very important issue on your agenda, according to statistics just released by the New York Police Department shooting incidents in New York City in July were up 177 percent over July of last year, murders were up by nearly 59 percent, burglaries up 31 percent over July of 2019.
Are you failing? What's going on? Are you keeping New York City residents safe right now?
DE BLASIO: Look, we have the strongest police department in the whole country. But we are seeing this all over. It's been a massive dislocation.
People don't have jobs. There isn't school. There aren't houses of worship until recently weren't open. And you talk about every element of our society, Wolf, this is what's contributing to this massive surge that we're all experiencing.
But the NYPD is fighting back. We put a variety of new strategies out there. We'll Working much more closely with communities to help stop the violence.
Look, we need help. Let's be clear. The help we need is to make sure we can keep all of our public services when you're talking about safety, health, education. They're all on the line now.
If we do not get federal support soon, I'm very worried about the stimulus talks in Washington, Wolf, because they seem to be going nowhere fast.
My challenge is, where am I going to have the people to do this work? I may have to do as many as layoffs of 22,000 city employees from every department by October 1 if I don't get federal help. So I know we can handle all these problems. We do it without the skilled personnel, the cops, the firefighters, the healthcare.
That's the biggest threat right now. What if that federal aid doesn't come and time is a waste in, Wolf.
BLITZER: We got to run, but very quickly, so you're suggesting the pandemic, the economic disaster that has resulted from the pandemic is causing this uptick in violence crime in New York City? Is that what I'm hearing?
DE BLASIO: You're hearing it now in New York City but all over.
Look, you are seeing a situation where people's lives are dislocated. There's tremendous frustration. There's also on top of that the fact that our full criminal justice system can't function.
Our court systems have not been functioning normally. Trials haven't been happening. Juries haven't been called. The whole system is stuck right now. We need to get everything back to normal. And that means addressing the healthcare reality, so we can bring all the pieces back. That's how we get back to safety.
BLITZER: Good luck, Mayor. You got a lot going on in New York City as you always do. Mayor Bill de Blasio in New York, thanks for joining us.
DE BLASIO: Thank you, Wolf.
BLITZER: All right. Coming up. We'll have more on President Trump's truly jaw dropping reaction to the rising U.S. coronavirus death felt I'll speak to the reporter behind the interview. There you see Jonathan Swan, he did an amazing job in that interview. We'll discuss when we come back.
Also Beirut, look at this, rocked by an explosion so big. It shook the city with the force of an earthquake. We're going live to Beirut.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[17:32:59]
BLITZER: Once again, as we wait for President Trump to take reporters' questions at today's coronavirus briefing, we're joined by the Axios National Political Reporter Jonathan Swan who conducted a jaw-dropping excellent interview with the President of the United States. Jonathan, thanks so much for joining us. Thanks for all your reporting.
You pressed the President on the death toll which now, by the way, stands at what, more than 156,000 Americans dead. He tried to explain why he thinks the United States is doing better than other countries using his own charts. I want to play a little clip, a little excerpt from your interview. Let's watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Take a look at some of these charts.
JONATHAN SWAN, NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER, AXIOS: I'd love to.
TRUMP: We're going to look.
SWAN: Let's look.
TRUMP: And if you look at death --
SWAN: Yes. Start to go up again.
TRUMP: Here's one. Well, right here, the United States is lowest in numerous categories. We're lower than the world.
SWAN: Lower than the world?
TRUMP: Lower than Europe.
SWAN: In what? In what?
TRUMP: Take a look. Right here. Here's case death.
SWAN: You're doing death as a proportion of cases. I'm talking about death as a proportion of population. That's where the U.S. is really bad. Much worse than South Korea, Germany, et cetera.
TRUMP: You can't do that. You have to --
SWAN: Why can't I do that?
TRUMP: You have to go by where -- look. Here is the United States. You have to go by the cases. Here's one right here, United States. You take the number of cases --
SWAN: OK.
TRUMP: No look, we're last. Meaning we're first. SWAN: Last? I don't know what we're first in. As of what?
TRUMP: Take a look. Again, it's cases.
SWAN: OK.
TRUMP: And we have cases because of the testing.
SWAN: A thousand Americans are dying a day. I understand what cases, it's different.
TRUMP: No. But you're not reporting it correctly, Jonathan.
SWAN: I think I am.
TRUMP: If you take a look at this other chart, look, this is our testing, I believe. This is the testing, yes.
SWAN: Yes. We're doing more tests.
TRUMP: No, wait a minute. Well, don't we get credit for that? And because we do more tests, we have more cases.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: So, Jonathan, is the President analyzing information in a way that leaves him with a blind spot on just how awful this pandemic actually is, how deadly it is? Does he just not understand it? Does he not get it?
[17:35:14]
SWAN: I don't pretend to know how he really thinks about versus what he's saying. But what is evident is that what he's saying is in direct contravention of the available evidence, or at the very least, the data points he's picking do not reflect the situation that the United States is in.
It is absolutely true, as President Trump says, that the United States has conducted more tests than anyone else. But that overall figure obscures a much darker reality, which is that a lot of those tests are taking a week or longer to get the results back, people are spreading it around.
And the fact that America has had to do so many tests is because the virus spread undetected like wildfire through the country, because we were slow to get the testing and the contact tracing. And as it relates to deaths, yes, as a proportion of cases, you know, perhaps his chart was accurate. I don't have a copy of it, but it's possible that what he was saying is true.
But when you look at America compared to other advanced countries, when you take the population and you look at the number of deaths from these fires, America is doing horribly. It's just a plain fact. It's an ugly fact. It's an inconvenient fact for the leader of this country. But it is a fact that we're not the worst in the world. There are several countries doing worse than America.
But for the country that is the leader of the free world with advanced science, a great deal of wealth and incredible medical facilities, this is not a good outcome. And that's exactly what Dr. Fauci has acknowledged on the record.
BLITZER: That's horrendous failure. You also had another revealing exchange. Jonathan, let me play another little clip. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Right now, I think it's under control. I tell you what.
SWAN: How? A thousand Americans are dying a day.
TRUMP: They are dying, that's true. And it is what it is. But that doesn't mean we aren't doing everything we can. It's under control as much as you can control it. This is a horrible plague that beset us.
SWAN: You really think it's just as much as we can control? A thousand deaths a day?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: You know, he's the President of United States, Jonathan. But has he really given up to some extent? Does he really think there's not much more that he can do that the country can do to change this deadly situation?
SWAN: I think at this point, he has put all his eggs in the vaccine and therapeutic baskets. The fact is a big part of the job is communication. Talk to any public health expert, they'll tell you that consistent fact-based credible communication from the leader is about the most important thing they can do. And the fact is President Trump has been giving the rosiest of assessments ever since this virus first arrived in the country has been saying it's under control every month.
It has it's evidently not under control with with the death toll that we have. Just the other thing that I think's really important to point out in regards to the way he's been talking about the virus and thinking about it, he often talks about his decision to shut off travel from China.
I don't think anyone at this point disputes that that was a -- you know, I think most people would say that was the right decision. But it's also the wrong data point to keep on discussing because by the time he shut down travel from China, the virus was already in the United States via Europe and other countries.
The criticisms of President Trump are all to do with what he did after the virus arrived in America. No fair-minded person would blame him for it guessing here. It's what he did after it came here. That is the subject of a great deal of scrutiny.
BLITZER: Yes. And as you've pointed out, as Dr. Sanjay Gupta has pointed out, as I pointed out in the show, many times in early March, there were maybe a dozen deaths here in the United States, about a dozen deaths in South Korea. Right now in South Korea, because of what they immediately did, under 300 people are dead here in the United States, more than 156,000 people are dead. What does that say to all of us?
So we're going to continue our conversations, Jonathan, down the road once again. On behalf of all of our viewers, thanks very much for a truly excellent interview.
SWAN: Thank you for having me, Wolf.
BLITZER: And we're going to have more of the interview coming up in our next hour as well. You're going to want to see more of this.
And to our viewers, stay with us. We're following the chaotic situation in Beirut, Lebanon right now where dozens of people have died. Thousands of people have been hurt by a huge explosion. We'll go live for an update
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[17:44:13]
BLITZER: We have much more coronavirus coverage coming up, but we're also following really worsening reports of destruction, injury and deaths after a huge explosion rock Beirut, Lebanon today. The explosion now has killed at least 73 people. I anticipate that number going way up, injured thousands of people in Beirut.
Our Ben Wedeman is in Beirut. He's in our bureau. He was there when the blast hit. Ben, we see a lot of destruction even where you are. Tell us what happened.
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's just after 6:00 p.m. local time, Wolf, about five, six hours ago at this point. I was in the bureau by myself. And I thought there was an earthquake, the building shook and I sort of ducked down beneath my desk thinking that that's the thing to do in an earthquake.
[17:45:03]
But just a nanosecond later, the windows in our studio and one of our other rooms were just completely blown. This is the window frame here. And this scene was duplicated, replicated throughout Beirut. I've spoken with people all over the city, they all report the same thing. Injuries, windows shattered throughout the city and, in fact, way up into the hills as well over Beirut.
The last we've heard from the health minister is that more than 70 people killed, more than 4,000 wounded and these numbers are increasing by the hour. The hospitals are overwhelmed. Some of them taking within just a matter of less than an hour, more than 400 people. They've called for people to donate blood. The Lebanese Red Cross has summoned all of its ambulances in the entire country to come to Beirut as soon as possible. Beirut has been declared a disaster area. There is an emergency -- national emergency has been declared. As well as far as the cause of this explosion, something of a mystery, Wolf. Initially, the official national news agency said that it was caused by fire in a warehouse containing fireworks.
However, when the head of security went to the scene and inspected it, he said it would be naive to think that at blast of this magnitude was caused by fireworks, and since then it's turned out that there may have been more than 2,000 tons of sodium nitrate, or rather ammonium nitrate in that warehouse did caused that explosion. Supposedly, was confiscated from a ship back in 2013, 2014.
Now Beirut port through which about 70 percent of this country's food is imported is now out of action and the largest silo that contains the country's wheat was completely destroyed in that blast. Wolf?
BLITZER: What a disaster. Our heart goes out to everyone in Beirut. Ben Wedeman, we'll stay in close touch with you. Thank God you're OK. Appreciate it very much.
There's more news we're following here in THE SITUATION ROOM. How states are dealing with a very disturbing number of large gatherings that are likely fueling the coronavirus pandemic.
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[17:52:36]
BLITZER: Despite increasingly urgent warnings, officials across the United States are struggling to try to prevent large public gatherings where the coronavirus is likely to spread. CNN's Brian Todd is joining us right now. Brian, we've seen very large groups of people gathering in states that have been especially hard hit by the virus. What's the latest?
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We have seen those gatherings, Wolf, and medical experts say those gatherings will almost inevitably lead to new cases. Tonight, two governors have had enough and are cracking down.
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TODD (voice-over): New Jersey's Governor is fed up. He's had to deal with repeated large gatherings in his state, including one of more than 700 people at a recent house party that took police more than five hours to break up.
GOV. PHIL MURPHY (D), NEW JERSEY: The alarms are going off. The only way to silence these alarms and get back to the process of moving forward is for everyone to take them seriously.
TODD (voice-over): Governor Phil Murphy now rolling back the limit for indoor gatherings to 25 people. The exceptions he says, weddings, funerals, other memorial and religious services, political activities protected under the First Amendment. MURPHY: We are not past this. Everyone who walks around refusing to wear a mask or who hosts an indoor house party or who over stuffs a boat is directly contributing to these increases. This has to stop, and it has to stop now.
TODD (voice-over): As the number of COVID-19 cases and deaths continues climbing across the country, many states are grappling with large public gatherings. Authorities in New York intercepting this party boat and making arrests after an alleged illegal party.
GOV. ANDREW CUOMO (D), NEW YORK: I mean, it is just really reckless, rude, irresponsible and illegal.
TODD (voice-over): Just how dangerous are large gatherings at this critical moment?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's a group of like 50, 60 people dancing on the road.
TODD (voice-over): Dr. Jonathan Reiner of George Washington University points to a hotspot state where mass gatherings have been a problem.
DR. JONATHAN REINER, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY: Just about every county in Florida right now. If you have an event with 50 people, there's over a 90 percent likelihood that they'll be a COVID positive person at that event. And that likelihood rises to almost 100 percent if you have an event with 100 people.
[17:55:00]
TODD (voice-over): We asked Dr. Reiner if now is the time for an across the board nationwide ban on large gatherings, at least temporarily. He said flat out, yes.
REINER: The reward for that is maybe opening schools in-person in October, right? Maybe having fans at some point in a football stadium this coming season, right? Having kids go back to college in-person.
TODD (voice-over): Reiner says if gatherings are still allowed, people should limit the size, keep their distance, stay outdoors and wear masks and face shields if they can. Medical experts say if directed to do so, Americans are capable of making those necessary sacrifices that they made them earlier in the pandemic and have done so throughout history.
DR. SEEMA YASMIN, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: What really pains me is that this could have been a very different summer. If we'd had a better lockdown a longer lockdown earlier in the spring, if we had opened up much more gradually, then we could be potentially having small house parties.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TODD: Dr. Jonathan Reiner says a huge part of the problem with mass gatherings in the United States is that there's no unified national leadership on the subject, no directives from the White House or the federal government for all Americans to follow. States, local governments, even individual businesses are left to enforce their own rules on gatherings. And, of course, those rules go all over the place. Wolf?
BLITZER: Brian Todd reporting for us, thanks very much.
There's more breaking news we're following. We're standing by for President Trump to take questions at his latest coronavirus briefing. We'll be right back.
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