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Dr. Deborah Birx Warns About Rising Positivity Rates In 9 Major Cities; Dr. Anthony Fauci Live On New Day. Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired August 06, 2020 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[07:00:00]

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Alisyn Camerota and John Berman.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome to our viewers in the United States and all around the world. This is NEW DAY.

And developing this morning, a new warning from the White House Coronavirus Task Force coordinator, Dr. Deborah Birx. In a phone call with state and local leaders, Dr. Birx expressed new concerns about nine cities and California's Central Valley because of dangerous increases, she says, in positivity rates. That list includes Baltimore, Atlanta, Chicago, Boston, and Washington, D.C.

The death toll across the country rising by nearly 1,400 in the last 24 hours. That's the second-straight day we've seen numbers like that. Nearly 160,000 Americans have been killed in this pandemic.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: And, Dr. Anthony Fauci says we may never fully eradicate coronavirus. That assessment contradicts the president, who continues to believe that the virus will magically, quote, "go away" -- though, that did not happen in April, as he predicted.

And for the first time, Facebook removed a post from the president's page because it was spreading dangerous misinformation about coronavirus.

BERMAN: Joining us now, Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases. Dr. Fauci, thanks so much for getting up this morning and being with us. It's always a pleasure to speak with you. Great to have you back on NEW DAY.

We reported this new warning --

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES, NATIONAL INSTITUTES OF HEALTH: Thank you.

BERMAN: -- from Dr. Deborah Birx about nine cities and the Central Valley of California.

What do you see there that is raising concern?

FAUCI: Yes. What Dr. Birx was talking about is that when you look at the number of percentage of the tests that you do that are positive -- it's referred to as percent positive -- it's a clear indication that you are getting an uptick in cases -- which inevitably, as we've seen in the southern states, leads to surges, and then you get hospitalizations, and then you get death. So it's a pretty good predictor.

Usually, before people become aware of it, it's that indicator that may be a fraction or two or a single percentage point creeps up in the percent positive of your tests. And we've seen that in the southern states, as predicted.

So, what Dr. Birx is saying is now is the time to accelerate the fundamental preventive measures that we all talk about -- masks, social distancing, avoiding crowds, outdoors greater than indoors, washing hands, et cetera. Those kind of simple things can actually prevent that uptick from becoming a surge. So she was warning the states and the cities to be careful because this is a predictor of trouble ahead.

BERMAN: A predictor of trouble ahead.

You have said that if we don't all band together and work and collectively do the things we need to do, then the virus -- you just told Sanjay yesterday it will smolder and smolder and smolder. What do you mean by that?

FAUCI: Well, for example, if you look even in cities and states where most of the people are doing things right, if you have a segment of society -- and what we've seen of late is that particularly, young people who understandably and innocently feel that they are really invulnerable to this, they can get infected.

And they look at the statistics and the statistics say the chances of your getting seriously ill compared to an elderly or someone who has an underlying condition is very low. So you'd almost see a natural situation of thinking incorrectly. Well, I'm in a vacuum so if I get infected the chances are I'm not going to have any problem.

That's not the case because by getting infected you are propagating the outbreak. And even though it may not impact you in a negative way, the chances are you're going to infect someone who'll infect someone, who then has an underlying condition or is elderly and can really get into trouble. So you may be thinking that you're not having a negative impact.

So by saying smoldering, I mean unless everybody pulls together and gets the level way down on the baseline, we're going to continue to see these kind of increases that Dr. Birx was talking about in several of those cities. That's what I mean by smoldering. You've got to get that baseline down and everybody on this group -- everybody on the team of American citizens need to pull together --

BERMAN: Let's talk more about --

FAUCI: -- because we're all in this together. BERMAN: Let's talk about that baseline because I think that's really interesting. And I know you can't see the chart that I'm about to put up on the screen but you know it by heart, and I'll describe it to you.

This is the daily deaths in the United States compared to Europe, compared to South Korea, compared to Germany. And what we will see when we put this up is that in those other countries and regions, the number of daily deaths went all the way down, approaching zero -- very, very minimal. The United States -- we stalled and started creeping back up again.

You're talking about that baseline. Why? Why did that happen?

FAUCI: Well, there are a number of reasons and it -- well, it's a number of reasons and it's complicated.

[07:00:05]

So, we didn't do things in a uniform way where when we shut down -- you know, when you shut down, if you look at the visits to grocery stores, the visits to parks, the visits to wherever indicating that people are not as shut down as we think they are.

There's no doubt -- the data show. You see Europe, Italy, it goes down. You see us, we do this.

So we had a situation where we never really put out those kinds of surges. So we went way up and then when things got bad, people saw that there were problems there so they started to act better. But they went down to a 20,000-person per day and it lingered at 20,000, 20,000.

And then when we started to open up the economy, which was the right thing to do, the way we did it was really not uniform. There were some states that did it prematurely, and there were some that tried to do it right but the people in the state didn't pay attention.

So what you saw as we began to open in the states that we know so well -- Florida, Texas, Arizona, California -- it started to creep up -- 40,000, 50,000, 60,000 and even 70,000. So when you have a high baseline to start with and you open up in a way that isn't prudent in the sense of being carefully doing the guidelines, you're going to see them go up. So that's exactly what happened.

BERMAN: So, some people are celebrating. And look, what's happening in Arizona and potentially, in Florida and Texas is promising. But nationally speaking, we're down from 70,000 cases a day to 50,000.

You say even 20,000 isn't enough, nationally. What is the number of cases a day where you can start to be doing more things?

FAUCI: Well, you know, I think, John, you can start thinking about doing more things now as long as you do them. And that's the point that I think is the misunderstanding, John -- that some people tend to think you either need to shut down completely or some people then think let it rip and just do anything you want -- no.

You can proceed to open up the country and get the economy back, even when you have situations that we have now, so long as everybody does the five or six fundamental things that I mentioned. So we've got to get away from that 'all or none phenomenon' is not. We can carefully proceed.

We saw in Arizona, which was a good example, they went up and they started to really clamp down and do things right, and the cases came right down. We can do that throughout those areas that are surging. So we will be able to get that baseline down to a level of hundreds of cases and maybe a thousand or two, rather than 20,000.

BERMAN: I do want to ask -- and I don't want you to weigh in on issues surrounding the election but I do want to talk about the timing of the election, which is the first week of November. Where do you see the pandemic and the level of cases in the country by then?

FAUCI: You know, John, it's up to us. It's really within our hands. And I really do believe based on the data we see in other countries and in the United States, in states and cities and counties that have done it correctly, that if we pay attention to the fundamental tenets of infection control and diminution of transmission, we could be way down in November. It is entirely conceivable.

It isn't inevitable that we need to be way up there was we get towards election. And I feel that very strongly if we do things correctly and we start right now to do that, everyone -- all states, cities, have to pull together for that.

BERMAN: A couple of very quick questions, if I can.

Number one, people always ask me what is the science on being re- infected? What are you seeing now in terms of people who have had coronavirus --

FAUCI: Yes.

BERMAN: -- and potentially being re-infected? What do we know for sure?

FAUCI: Well, we don't know for sure, at all, that that occurs, John. There's some anecdotal individual outliers that say individuals were infected, they cleared the virus, and then they had a syndrome or maybe even had lingering virus.

We don't know yet whether that occurs and that's something that we're looking at right now in multiple studies, including one we're doing at the NIH, to see if, in fact, that occurs. But we can't say that occurs right now.

BERMAN: In terms of science and studies, this does raise another question -- and I don't want to relitigate hydroxychloroquine because the science hasn't changed on it in the last week or the last day.

However, we did have Dr. Harvey Risch from Yale on, on Monday, and he suggested what you have been saying, that random-controlled trials -- placebo-controlled trials -- you say they're the gold standard. He says that's not so. We shouldn't be so reliant on them --

FAUCI: Yes.

BERMAN: -- when determining the efficacy of hydroxychloroquine.

[07:10:00]

Why do you feel so strongly about those trials?

FAUCI: Well, because it is the gold standard. You have to compare your intervention with something because the medical literature and experience is full of situations of anecdotal retrospective cohort studies that have proven to be wrong.

I might add, agreeing with me is virtually every scientist who is competent in clinical trials that will say that the randomized placebo-controlled trial is, in fact, the gold standard. So I would have to respectfully, totally disagree with him.

BERMAN: Dr. Fauci, you said something to Sanjay yesterday which was concerning to me -- concerning to, I think, a lot of Americans, which is that you and your family have been receiving threats. Death threats, even.

FAUCI: Yes.

BERMAN: Why do you think that is?

FAUCI: Yes. You know, there's such divisiveness right now in this country, John. I mean, I can't explain it except to say the kinds of things that you see in society.

We have a lot of outlier people that do things that are almost explicable, where they push back against science in a way that gets translated into threats to me, my daughters, my wife. I mean, that is completely crazy. It really makes you shake your head and wonder about -- wonder about some elements in society.

BERMAN: I can't agree with that more.

Listen, Dr. Fauci, Alisyn Camerota, my co-anchor, has some important questions for you.

CAMEROTA: Dr. Fauci, great to see you again. Alisyn here.

FAUCI: Hi, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: Hi.

I have been listening with rapt attention but I feel like John didn't get to the really burning question that America has for you, and that is did you hear that Brad was nominated for an Emmy for playing you?

FAUCI: (Laughing) Yes, I did. What a surreal world we're living in, Alisyn. I mean, I hope he wins. He's a great actor. I mean, he's one of my favorite actors so I really do hope he wins.

CAMEROTA: Have you spoken to him since he played you?

FAUCI: You know, I have not. I would love to meet him because I've been such a great admirer of him and his talent. But I have not spoken to him.

CAMEROTA: I feel like we can make that happen, Dr. Fauci. I feel like we -- you know, you and I have the power to have you meet Brad because I sort of feel like anything you and I suggest, he does.

FAUCI: Well, we'll see, we'll see. Thanks, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: Oh, I'm not done with you, Dr. Fauci. Would you like to go up on stage when he wins? Would you like to be there to help accept the Emmy award?

FAUCI: Yes. You know, Alisyn, the only reason I have hesitancy about that is that we're in the middle of an outbreak -- a really bad pandemic. And I think that if that association with, kind of, show business thing might be misinterpreted that it's I'm not serious about what I'm doing. So I'd rather focus on my job and really wish him well that he wins.

CAMEROTA: I was afraid there was going to be a point that I pushed you too far and I feel that we have just --

FAUCI: Yes.

CAMEROTA: -- gotten up to that point.

FAUCI: Yes.

CAMEROTA: But we really appreciate how playful you have been on the lighter note with all of that and it was just great. I mean, it was just a great moment to watch, you know, that obviously --

FAUCI: Yes.

CAMEROTA: -- Brad Pitt is a fan of yours and all of your information as well.

FAUCI: Yes, thanks. Thanks, Alisyn -- I appreciate it.

BERMAN: Not handsome enough, Brad Pitt. That's the one thing I will say. The one inaccurate point there -- Brad Pitt, not quite good looking enough.

Dr. Fauci, thanks so much for being with us -- appreciate it.

FAUCI: Right, I appreciate it. Thanks, John.

CAMEROTA: Thanks, Dr. Fauci.

FAUCI: Yes. Thanks, Alisyn.

BERMAN: All right, you just heard from Dr. Anthony Fauci there talk about the coronavirus, talk about the pandemic.

So what's the situation going forward with this virus that Dr. Fauci says may never go completely away? Dr. Sanjay Gupta joins us, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:17:42]

CAMEROTA: Dr. Anthony Fauci telling us, moments ago, what he thinks is necessary to get the coronavirus pandemic under control.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FAUCI: Unless everybody pulls together and gets the level way down on the baseline, we're going to continue to see these kind of increases that Dr. Birx was talking about in several of those cities. That's what I mean by smoldering. You've got to get that baseline down and everybody on this group -- everybody on the team of American citizens need to pull together --

BERMAN: Let's talk more about --

FAUCI: -- because we're all in this together.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: OK, let's bring in Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN chief medical correspondent. Sanjay, great to see you.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning.

CAMEROTA: We know you had, also, a long chat with Dr. Fauci yesterday. So what is our takeaway this morning?

GUPTA: Well, I think the point that he's been making for some time is that we've never been able to get this really under control. Even when some of these measures were put in, in March, they were -- they ended up being sort of half-measures. You know, states did not fully shut down. People were not compliant, ultimately, fully about masks -- you know, some places better than others.

I mean, there have been some bright spots. Obviously, where you live in New York, has been a bright spot, but that's not what the rest of the country looks like.

I was just talking to some sources late last night and if you look at the country overall, still about half the country wearing masks. That's an example -- about half the country wearing masks despite the fact that in so many cities across America the numbers continue to go up.

You're getting some significant travel again -- people really becoming mobile without wearing masks. The concern is that the virus will continue to spread.

I think the question that you asked him about -- so, we came down to a roughly 20,000 -- you know, that was the -- that was the lowest that we came down to. Seventeen thousand was the lowest but it sort of plateaued around 20,000 new infections daily.

So what is the right number? We are in mitigation phase, right? We're trying to slow things down in this country. What we've always been striving for is containment and you feel like you have truly got your arms around this virus in this country.

[07:20:00]

What number does that mean? Well, it's roughly one in a million to one in 100,000 new cases per day, so that would be between 350 to 3,500 new cases per day. That would be an acceptable sort of mitigation. I'm sorry, that would be an acceptable containment, sort of, mode.

And obviously, we're nowhere near that right now. We're getting tens of thousands -- 50,000 new cases a day. So, that's a number to shoot for in the country.

BERMAN: I'm so glad that you put a solid number on it, Sanjay, because that's what I was pushing with, with Dr. Fauci there. Twenty thousand, he said, was not enough. So you need to be down below 3,500 cases a day nationally, and that doesn't seem anywhere close, I have to say, at this point.

GUPTA: No, it doesn't but it is totally achievable, though, too. That's the thing. When we -- when we look at what's happening in other countries, they were able to get to that containment, sort of, mode and do it fairly quickly. I mean, within weeks, not within several months.

So the idea -- you know, the five things that Dr. Fauci's been talking about -- the people have, frankly, been talking about since the beginning -- you know, wearing a mask, physically distancing, avoiding crowded indoor spaces, avoiding large crowds, and just washing your hands often, that's it.

That's not adding any level of therapeutics or vaccine into that. It is adding in a level of testing, being able to quickly identify new infections. But if you have all that, within a few weeks you could bring the numbers down to that containment level.

CAMEROTA: Dr. Fauci was saying that he doesn't think that it will be possible to eradicate coronavirus. You know, it won't just magically disappear.

But then we talked to Dr. Peter Hotez earlier this morning and he said that they are working on a universal coronavirus vaccine, which was just interesting to hear.

GUPTA: Yes.

CAMEROTA: So not just -- you know, not just chasing it -- COVID-19 -- and then, you know, SARS, MERS. So that would eradicate it, wouldn't it? GUPTA: Yes. You know, I've got to tell you, the science behind this stuff is fascinating. And the problem with this particular virus is it's so contagious. That's what makes it hard to eradicate.

SARS and MERS, going back to 2003, essentially did wither away in this -- in this world because it wasn't nearly as contagious. Even though, if you may remember, SARS was very, very deadly. I mean, ultimately, in the world, 8,000, roughly, were infected and about 800 died. So not that many infections but a 10 percent fatality rate, so that's really high.

The universal vaccine that they've been talking about for flu for some time, and now with coronavirus, is this idea that these viruses do share enough in common that you could create a vaccine that would make neutralizing antibodies to the most stable components of that virus -- of these viruses.

And, you know, we're going to need this because as much as we're in the middle of this right now, there will be other coronavirus or other type pandemics. So to be able to have a universal vaccine of some sort would be amazing.

You've got to invest in it. We tend to -- you know, as soon as this goes away we say hey, look, we've got to spend the money on other things. We've got to invest in this when we're not in the middle of it in order for this to work.

BERMAN: So I also didn't get a chance to ask Dr. -- ask Dr. Fauci about the president's claim that children are immune to coronavirus. And part of the reason I didn't ask is because you don't need Dr. Fauci to answer it, right?

There is an answer that we all know, which is no, kids are not immune. In fact, social media giants Facebook and Twitter suspended or took down those posts from the president yesterday, Sanjay.

So in terms --

GUPTA: Yes.

BERMAN: Well, just address that if you would.

GUPTA: Yes, there's two things I want to say.

First of all, I'm living here in Georgia and we're watching this, covering the story every day with you guys, talking about this on a world scale. And then living it very personally, talking to friends, family all over the place here in Georgia.

You know, there were 260 kids at a summer camp that my kids would have typically gone to in any other year that were infected with this virus. One camp counselor felt sick. Two days after camp started he went home and was subsequently tested positive. They started testing kids and 260 out of 600 kids were infected with this virus.

So, you know, kids are definitely not immune. I think the president is not using the word "immune" correctly or doesn't know what it means. Kids can definitely get infected with this virus.

So I went back and looked at the statistics overall. And if you -- since the beginning of this, sort of in late February or early March, for kids, you've had close to 350,000 kids -- people under the age of 18 who have been infected with this virus.

It is true that they are less likely to die from this. But this is also not a binary story and we're six-seven months into this. We can't just keep talking about whether you lived or whether you died. I mean, people who recover from this -- become infected and then recover can often have longer-term ramifications, and that includes kids.

Bottom line is you don't want this virus -- you don't want it. You don't want to sort of say hey, look, let's just get herd immunity -- kids will be fine. Let's power through it. That is not the strategy.

[07:25:05]

Maybe people thought that in the beginning and maybe there was some merit to saying hey, look, kids really are not inoculated in some way from this. That is not the case and we know that definitively now.

CAMEROTA: Sanjay, thank you, as always, for all of the information. And be sure to join Sanjay and Anderson Cooper for a new coronavirus town hall that is tonight, 8:00 p.m. eastern right here on CNN.

All right. Progressive Democrats scored some key primary victories this week. What does that mean for the moderate at the top of the ticket, Joe Biden, and his vice presidential pick? We discuss that, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: Just 89 days until Election Day. The progressive wing of the Democratic Party scored a couple of notable primary wins this week.

Here is what Missouri congressional candidate Cori Bush told John yesterday about supporting the more moderate Joe Biden at the top of the ticket.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CORI BUSH (D), MISSOURI CONGRESSIONAL CANDIDATE: I mean, I have -- we have to have -- we can't continue with Donald Trump. We cannot live under a Trump administration. So we can disagree on an issue but that won't stop me from fighting for -- to have a Democrat in that seat.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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