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Postal Service Warns States Of Potential Mail-In-Ballot Delays; Heart Association: COVID Causing Heart Damage To Many Patients; Food Banks Struggling To Feed People As Crisis Worsens; President Donald Trump Won't Denounce Conspiracy Theories Peddled By GOP Candidate; Russia Begins Producing COVID-19 Vaccine; Kamala Harris Gets Secret Service Protection As Biden's VP Pick. Aired 12-1p ET
Aired August 15, 2020 - 12:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[12:00:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN HOST: Thank you so much for joining me. I'm Bianna Golodryga in for Fredricka Whitfield. We'll begin with a fight over mail-in voting taking center stage once again.
Today a group of protesters voicing their concerns outside the home of the Postmaster General, demonstrators are demanding that Postmaster General Louis DeJoy end a series of recent changes to the Postal Service that have slowed mail delivery. They say DeJoy is an ally of President Trump is trying to sabotage the mail system ahead of the upcoming election where more voters will mail in their ballots because of the pandemic.
Among those voters, the President and First Lady, who both requested mail-in ballots in Florida but that didn't stop President Trump from continuing his baseless attacks on mail-in voting, tweet this morning that the 2020 election will be a fraudulent mess and that we may never know who won. CNN's Jessica Schneider has more on this growing political fight.
JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: When Florida holds its primary election on Tuesday, President Trump and the First Lady will be voting by mail, the couple requesting ballots as President Trump has repeatedly claimed mail-in voting leads to widespread voter flawed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I said it will end up being fraudulent because if you look at what's happened over the last few weeks, just look at the few instances where this has happened, it's turned out to be fraudulent.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHNEIDER: But CNN's fact checking team has consistently debunked that claim. More states are adopting universal mail-in balloting where ballots are automatically mailed to every registered voter. New Jersey is just the latest state.
That makes nine states plus Washington, D.C. that will now give all voters the option to vote by mail and most also have in-person voting, known as a hybrid model.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. PHIL MURPHY (D-NJ): Everybody gets a ballot, so we're going to have a hybrid model in November.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHNEIDER: Meanwhile, some voters in Virginia, New Hampshire and D.C. say they are increasingly confused by election information they're receiving in the mail. In D.C., there were erroneous instructions and in New Hampshire and Virginia the mailers contained errors in the return address.
In Pennsylvania, Republicans raced to turn over evidence that proves their claims of mail-in voter fraud in the state's primaries. It will be a pivotal point in a critical battleground state the Trump Campaign has sued to demand changes to Pennsylvania's mail-in balloting process.
But now a judge is making them prove there are problems. Democrats saying Republicans should not be permitted to raise such spectacular fraud related claims, particularly in this national climate.
This is the fight over funding at the U.S. Postal Service continues, with a new letter from Postmaster General Louis DeJoy obtained by CNN showing the Trump appointee and longtime Republican donor acknowledging some of the recent changes have had unintended consequences impacting the level of service, but DeJoy says the cuts are necessary since the USPS's financial condition is dire.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: People have to go to the polls and vote, like the old days.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHNEIDER: CNN has learned the president met with Postmaster DeJoy last week at the height of funding talks as he opposed widespread voting by mail.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JENA GRISWOLD, COLORADO SECRETARY OF STATE: President Trump is lying about vote by mail. He is lying about mail ballots. Colorado has a very clean history of running great elections with vote by mail.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHNEIDER: We've learned that the internal watchdog for the Postal Service will now review the recent changes made by the Postmaster General Louis DeJoy that include elimination of overtime, as well as service slowdowns. The Inspector General will also look into whether DeJoy has complied with the federal ethics rules.
Now this comes after lawmakers from both parties have sounded the alarms on these recent changes, calling them disruptive. But DeJoy has repeatedly denied that the changes are meant to disrupt service, instead saying that the cuts are necessary because of the financial situation the Postal Service is in. Jessica Schneider, CNN, Washington.
GOLODRYGA: And our thanks to Jessica for that reporting. Now to the latest on the pandemic, while the world races to find a Coronavirus vaccine, U.S. scientists will soon create a strain of the virus that could be used to intentionally infect subjects dosed with an experimental vaccine.
Dr. Fauci says it's, "Absolutely far out contingency plan D", and that he doesn't think the controversial human challenge trials will ever take place. Adding to the concerns about the virus is new evidence that shows the risk of death from Coronavirus related heart damage seems to be far greater than previously thought.
The American Heart Association now says inflammation of the vascular system and injury to the heart occur in 20 percent to 30 percent of hospitalized Coronavirus patients and contribute to 40 percent of deaths.
[12:05:00]
GOLODRYGA: And with the number of COVID tests across the country declining, White House Coronavirus Testing CZAR Admiral Dr. Brett Giroir says the Trump Administration is working aggressively to create technology, making point of care testing widely available at low cost within the next six weeks.
And in Georgia the state has been reporting thousands of new cases every day. And as Natasha Chen explains that has drawn attention from the White House.
NATASHA CHEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Georgia is not doing enough to prevent the spread of COVID-19. That's according to White House Coronavirus Task Force recommendations from August 9th, a document obtained by the Atlanta Journal Constitution.
It reads, there is widespread and expanding community viral spread and there is no significant improvement in the Atlanta metro area, with continued high levels of new cases at a plateau. Mitigation efforts must increase.
Governor Brian Kemp's office fired back, sending CNN a list of its ongoing efforts to combat the spread of the virus, saying in part, "The DPH lab has been working around the clock with multiple shifts since early summer" and that Governor Kemp continues to rely on data, science and the public health advice of the state's public health director.
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MAYOR KEISHA LANCE BOTTOMS (D), ATLANTA: Georgia should roll back. I definitely think Georgia should roll back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHEN: In a state seeing at least 3,000 new cases every day over the last month, the Atlanta Mayor says it's too soon for students to be in classrooms.
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BOTTOMS: And we're seeing it already in our state as schools have reopened, kids are getting infected and in my opinion, this is my opinion as a parent, it's more disruptive to think you're sending your child into a situation and then have to pull them all back out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHEN: Courtney Smith pulled her daughters out of public school in Atlanta suburbs altogether when they told her they saw 30 to 40 students in each classroom with few people wearing masks.
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COURTNEY SMITH, PARENT: As parents our number one task in life is to protect our babies and I really felt like I was dropping mine off at a death trap on Monday. So there were a lot of tears shed by me and shed by my children last week.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHEN: After two days in their Cherokee County school, Smith transferred them to a Charter School, which she says has far fewer students in class and more of them wearing masks. On Friday Cherokee County's Public School District confirmed 80 new cases of COVID-19 for the week, nearly triple the previous week's count. Two high schools had to temporarily pause in-person learning.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH: If you want your kids in school, your schools have to stay open. For the schools to stay open you have to contain your numbers of COVID cases and the best way that we know of to contain those cases is to implement masks and to also implement a hybrid program where you reduce the number of students in the building at one time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHEN: But there is no mask mandate in Cherokee County schools or at Paulding County schools where North Paulding High School also had to temporarily stop in-person classes due to students and staff testing positive. Starting Monday, that school will use a hybrid schedule with both in-person and digital learning.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. BRIAN KEMP (R-GA): There's definitely going to be issues when you open anything. We saw that when we opened businesses, we're seeing that when we open schools. We've given them guidance. We've worked with them to really give them the tools that they need to open.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHEN: Those tools include shipments of masks that aren't required by the state, though Kemp once sued Atlanta's Mayor for mandating masks, he says local school officials are best positioned to make the rules for their communities.
GOLODRYGA: And CNN's Natasha Chen now joins me at a food bank drive. Families there are also struggling to feed themselves and Natasha these two plays hand to hand. You've got children who can't get the food that they relied on everyday at school and you've got parents that are struggling to take care of their children at home, and many without jobs. What are they telling you?
CHEN: Yes, Bianna, there are some folks here who talked to us today getting really emotional about how grateful they are for this help, even if it is short-term immediate help. And they're just wrapping up here because there were about 100 plus cars here this morning. Some of them who waited like three hours to come get these boxes of food that these folks are wrapping up right now.
This organization caring for others has also in the past donated laptops and things that children need, especially now during digital learning as we discussed in that piece. So other stories I'm hearing from people who lined up today, they have elderly parents that they're taking care of.
Some of them have lost their jobs during COVID-19 when their businesses shut down or perhaps because of the elderly and vulnerable they're taking care of, they are not able to go do the jobs they were doing before.
So they have to rely on places like this. Before the pandemic, we were being told by the organizers here that they used to do this food drives once a quarter and now, because of the pandemic demands, they're doing this every other week and they're seeing the lines just get longer and longer.
[12:10:00]
CHEN: One of the ladies who was talk to go me here who came to get food, said she has noticed just the range of the ages of people coming, that she hasn't seen before, really ranging from young folks all the way to elderly people.
And she said that just really strikes her as just an indicator of where we are right now, of where this state is right now, where this country is right now? And they have no idea when this is going to be over? So there is a bit of desperation, Bianna.
GOLODRYGA: Really is so sad to hear Natasha Chen and once again we can't reiterate enough, thank you so much to those volunteers who come out there every other week as you say to help so many of their neighbors out. Natasha Chen thank you as always for your great reporting. CHEN: Thanks.
GOLODRYGA: Well, the Georgia school outbreak comes as the Director of the CDC says the pandemic may transform the way teachers teach and students learn for many years to come. Dr. Robert Redfield tells CNN everything from the classroom model to lunch schedules and even school facilities may face big changes because of this outbreak.
With me now for more on this is Dr. Esther Choo, she is a Professor of Emergency Medicine at the Oregon Health and Science University. Doctor, thank you so much for joining us, as you've heard from that previous piece, we've seen so many schools open just to be forced to shut down a few days later after some cases among students and teachers are reported.
What is your take-away thus far on school reopenings and is it possible to do so successfully if certain guidelines such as masks become mandated?
DR. ESTHER CHOO, PROFESSOR OF EMERGENCY MEDICINE, OREGON HEALTH & SCIENCE UNIVERSITY: Thank you for having me. First of all I want to say that I have four school-aged children so I am highly motivated for the end point of getting our kids back in school. I cannot wait for that day.
But the truth is, this year is just going to be different and we're going to have to be really nimble. I mean, first of all, the main thing will be what is the community rate of COVID? And if things aren't going well in the community, schools simply can't open because it's just a waiting game for cases to arrive in the schools and outbreaks to happen there.
And then I think the other thing is we talk a lot about when schools need to close? If they decide to open, when do they need to close? And that depends entirely on how much schools are putting in safety measures so that we're really isolating cohorts of individual classes.
If there's a well cohorted classroom, then a single case means that classroom needs to go in quarantine. If things are happening like that famous Georgia school where there's just a - of people with no masks in the hallways, if they're super relaxed about what's happening there, then a single case or two means the entire school needs to shut down.
So I think, you know, we cannot get schools open and then celebrate and relax. I think we need to maintain vigilance this entire year, do school differently, and just know this entire school year is going to be odd and maybe it's really the next school year starting in 2021 that school will start to look like something that we recognize again.
GOLODRYGA: Let's hope so. Let's hope that we don't have to wait too long for that day. The CDC is now saying that the rate of cases in children is steadily rising and suggesting that up to some 45 percent of children are symptomatic so that's a relief in the sense that children aren't having really bad side effects and cases. But should that raise alarms among parents for returning their kids to in-person classes, just in case they come home and infect their other family members?
DR. CHOO: Yes, we were really binary about what we thought about kids early on, and what I mean is we thought it was all or nothing. Either kids get COVID or they get no COVID. And actually the truth is somewhere in between.
It seems like they don't experience side effects - I'm sorry, serious course of disease or symptomatic disease as often as older adults, but at the same time they certainly get it. This is not a magical virus that does weird things that no other virus does.
It affects people of all ages and the thing is we had our initial case rate among children that was calculated at a time where school had already closed. So we just didn't test it very much. So now we're talking about opening schools up nationally, we are going to test, really test our hypothesis that this disease is safer among children and we know that children are capable of spreading it, particularly older children.
So we really have to think about our teachers, our administrators, bus drivers, all the other staff of adults who are present in school and understand that they are just as susceptible to severe disease as the general population.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, look I'm with you. I have two little ones at home and it's been amazing that for the past five months there hasn't even been a runny nose. But you know what is going to happen once they get back to school, and out of their little cocoons.
So as you said, there's so much data that we don't know yet and we'll have to find out once schools do reopen nationwide. But I want to switch gears now, because adding to the dangers of COVID is this new data that I mentioned earlier, and that's regarding heart damage.
[12:15:00]
GOLODRYGA: What is your take-away when the American Heart Association is now saying that the threat of heart damage from this virus is greater than we thought? So it's not as if those who survive this virus just go back to their lives as normal in many cases.
DR. CHOO: Yes, it's really interesting overall how much we have to learn about this disease? I mean, I've said every week we still have more to learn than we already know and I haven't stopped saying that.
There's been some interesting studies, post-mortem studies, suggesting that there's signs of inflammation - I'm sorry, not post-mortem, there have been imaging studies showing that there are signs of inflammation in the cardiac tissue of patients who had COVID, even patients who had mild disease.
And we know this disease affects - has this ability to affect every organ system. And then on top of that we're seeing patients who have really prolonged symptoms. I mean, fatigue that just doesn't end, shortness of breath that doesn't end and complicated neurologic symptoms that don't end.
So some people are starting to wonder is it because there is some subclinical damage to your heart that you're experiencing these extended symptoms of fatigue and shortness of breath and things like that?
And so we still have a lot to learn, but we have to remember that even when there's a successful recovery, meaning that people don't die, there is some serious morbidity here, things that are really limiting and are causing long-term disability that's part of the really under recognized, unmeasured cost of this disease.
And I think some of these things we're only going to realize over the next months and even years of studying this disease.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, it's becoming more and more clear this is just not a respiratory virus, that's for sure. Dr. Esther Choo, thank you for joining us best of luck to you and your four little ones at home.
DR. CHOO: Thank you, you too.
GOLODRYGA: Thanks. Well, still to come, it's the latest in a long list of conspiracy theories. Why President Trump won't denounce false birther claims that Senator Kamala Harris wasn't born in the U.S. plus Harris' secret service protection will likely be different than other vice presidential candidates in the past. A Former Secret Service Agent will join me live to explain why?
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[12:20:00]
GOLODRYGA: Conspiracy theorist in chief, and that's a role the president often takes on, whether it's his attacks on Kamala Harris or refusing to denounce dangerous QAnon on theories. The president continues to push either or support misinformation and lies. Our Jeremy Diamond takes a closer look.
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: The conspiracy theorist in chief is back at it, refusing to knock down a pair of baseless conspiracy theories from the White House podium.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Has been ever opponent as the QAnon conspiracy theory. She said that it's something that would be worth listening to. Do you agree with her on that?
TRUMP: Well, she's did very well in the election, she won by a lot. She was very popular.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DIAMOND: Today Trump standing by his praise of a Republican Congressional Candidate who supports QAnon.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE, REPUBLICAN CONGRESSIONAL NOMINEE: Q is a patriot, we know that for sure, but we do not know who Q is?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DIAMOND: Declining an opportunity to dismiss a conspiracy theory that is popular among some of his supporters.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you agree QAnon - with that conspiracy theory> Do you agree with her on that?
TRUMP: Go ahead, please.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DIAMOND: Just yesterday, Trump gave oxygen to a baseless theory about Kamala Harris, the first black woman to run for vice president on a major party ticket.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: So I just heard that - I heard that today that she doesn't meet the requirements. And by the way, the lawyer that wrote that piece is a very highly qualified, very talented lawyer. I have no idea if that's right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DIAMOND: Harris was born in Oakland, California, and constitutional law experts are rejecting this theory as nonsense. But for Trump, this is old hat.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: He may not have been born in this country. I would like to have him show his show birth certificate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DIAMOND: So far, Senator Lindsey Graham, a close Trump ally is the only Republican Senator to quash doubts about his colleague's eligibility to be vice president, tweeting under the constitution and Supreme Court precedent; she is unequivocally an American citizen. But Jared Kushner the president's top adviser and campaign consigliore is taking a pass on debunking this Birtherism revival.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JARED KUSHNER, WHITE HOUSE SENIOR ADVISER: He just said that he had no idea whether that's right or wrong. I don't see that as promoting it. But look at the end of the day; it's something that's out there. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was born in Oakland, California.
KUSHNER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Makes her a qualified candidate.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: I like to use this platform as like a place for a peace offering or a Mea Culpa. You're also a Campaign Adviser to the President. Would you apologize on behalf of your candidate for him spreading that information?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DIAMOND: As Democrats hold their National Convention next week, Trump is returning to the campaign trail with counter-programming stops in three battleground states. Jeremy Diamond, CNN, White House.
GOLODRYGA: Parts of Europe are experiencing a new Coronavirus surge, and in some areas of France could face new pandemic restrictions, the story next on "CNN Newsroom."
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[12:25:00]
GOLODRYGA: Officials in Russia say they are now producing a Coronavirus vaccine. The country will begin administering the vaccine to high-risk people at the same time at it conducts phase III safety trials.
The country's Health Minister says the goal is to mass vaccinate Russia citizens in October. Russia has not provided any data on the effectiveness or safety of the vaccine. For more international headlines, let's check in with our reporters around the world.
JIM BITTERMANN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I'm Jim Bittermann in Paris, along with my - one of two hot spots where local police officials are now free to impose new restrictions and lockdowns if they feel it's necessary to control the Coronavirus.
And now France as a whole is among several countries which find themselves at risk because of spikes in the Coronavirus cases. Britain considers travelers from France, as well as the Netherlands and Monaco as presenting a risk to British subjects.
So those arriving this weekend will face a 14-day quarantine period. Those countries are not alone. Germany, where cases are also spiking, is considering parts of Spain on its high-risk list and travelers there will also probably face new restrictions soon.
[12:30:04]
SELINA WANG, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I'm Selina Wang in Hong Kong. New Zealand is pursuing its strategy of total elimination of the coronavirus. Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern on Friday announced current COVID-19 restrictions would remain in place for another 12 days. That means Auckland's nearly 1.7 million residents will be required to stay at home except for essential trips, while the rest of the country faces social distancing measures.
The country has recorded 30 new cases since Tuesday when it broke its 102 day streak of no local infections. The Prime Minister also said that lifting restrictions now would be the worst thing for Auckland and the New Zealand economy because it could lead to a potential explosion in new cases.
STEFANO POZZEBON, CNN JOURNALIST: I am Stefano Pozzebon born in Bogota, Colombia. And the situation remains tense in Bolivia following weeks of strict protest after the government's decision to postpone a round of elections from September to October due to COVID-19. These protests have blocked the country in the last few weeks with scores of roadblocks set up on the main highways between the main cities of Bolivia.
But COVID-19 is giving no relief to the Andean nation with the Bolivian government on Friday night reporting 1,491 new cases and 55 new deaths.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: It's truly a global struggle, our thanks to all the reporters around the world.
Well, the Secret Service is now guarding vice presidential candidate, Kamala Harris. A former Secret Service agent joins me next to explain what that entails and what kind of special precautions may be taken to protect her. You're in the CNN NEWSROOM.
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[12:36:05]
GOLODRYGA: With the ticket finally set, Senator Kamala Harris says she's proud to be Joe Biden's running mate, especially as a black woman.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. KAMALA HARRIS (D-CA), PRESUMPTIVE VICE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Joe, I'm so proud to stand with you. And I do so mindful of all the heroic and ambitious women before me, whose sacrifice, determination, and resilience makes my presence here today even possible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Joining me now is Jonathan Wackrow, CNN law enforcement analyst and former Secret Service agent for President Obama. John, thank you so much for coming on. We appreciate it.
JONATHAN WACKROW, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Thank you.
GOLODRYGA: So while it is historic, Biden's decision to pick Harris comes as you know, at a time when the country is being gripped with issues of racial injustice, we know that the Secret Service is now guarding Senator Harris. But I wonder how concerned are you about her safety with the increased exposure as Biden's running mate now?
WACKROW: Well, listen, I'm concerned for with anybody that dipped their toe in the political environment these days. But specific to Senator Harris, what we have here is a combination of the old and the new and here's what I mean by that. The old is in terms of old threats that carry forward a risk from when she was a city prosecutor, the attorney general of California, and now that as a senator.
Those will now merge with new threats that will arise as she assumes this role as the V.P. candidate. And as she, her exposure increases as the candidate, you'll see a rise in the number of direct and indirect threats. So herein lies the challenge for the Secret Service in those that are protecting her is finding a balance between the public access in that exposure to the candidate and to the risk environment and the protective measures that need to be put forth to actually manage the risk that she is facing.
GOLODRYGA: And I think many people would assume that given her past and current role as a senator, that she already has a security detail that protects her. But I think to an event last year, pre COVID, where she was speaking, and somebody rushed the stage and tried to jump on and the moderator got up and her husband had to chase them down, and you're reminded that they're not constantly surrounded by security. Now that she has even more exposure as the potential next vice president on this ticket, does that just upped the ante?
WACKROW: It absolutely does. And when we talk specifically about Senator Harris, what we need to think about is that there's a convergence of factors that are extremely unique to her as this candidate, I think it's unprecedented. And I bucketed into three main categories race, gender, and her demeanor and behavior.
So here's what I mean by that. Sadly, people are going to make threats against her solely predicated upon her race. And I mean, that's just a sad state of affairs, but it's common. We saw it with the Obamas. We're going to see it with her again. Also, now gender, gender is a key issue. It's going to be an issue in this race. And people are going to make threats against her either direct or veiled based upon her gender.
Finally, her demeanor, we saw it this week, we saw the President calling her out, calling her a madman. I mean, that type of rhetoric is targeting her demeanor. And those that want to potentially cause harm will key in on her personal behavior and her demeanor to make threats as -- or use those as a justification to make threats against her.
GOLODRYGA: Does your antenna go up when you hear people and the President not dismissing claims that perhaps her being on the ticket or becoming vice president is not constitutional even though we know that it is. She was born in the U.S. Does that concern you that somebody may say, you know what, I got to do something about this if perhaps something unconstitutional may occurred?
[12:40:07]
WACKROW: Absolutely. Whenever statements regardless who they're made by go beyond civil discourse, they are dangerous. As they can be misinterpreted as a call to action, a call to arms, if you will, politically charged ideologies can act as a catalyst for violent acts. And that can be from the far left and the far right.
The Secret Service has long known the potential for this type of risk. And they prepare for it these days. They understand how, you know, through social media in the digital domain, how rhetoric can transform into these physical acts, and they prepare themselves for that.
GOLODRYGA: Well, we are grateful for all of the help provided by the Secret Service, even in the COVID era, right? You don't have these mass rallies, maybe that's a good thing. But on the other hand, you've got a pandemic, and you've got to think about people's health, and yet they continue to come to work every single day. Jonathan Wackrow, thank you so much, really interesting conversation.
WACKROW: Hey, thanks a lot. Have a great day.
GOLODRYGA: You, too.
In 2016, Donald Trump won the White House but lost the popular vote. Well, the same thing happened in 2000 when George W. Bush was reelected president. Should we count on controversy this November? CNN's John Berman joins me next.
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[12:45:44]
GOLODRYGA: It has happened twice in recent years. The winner of the presidential election didn't win the popular vote. And that is a result of a quirk in the U.S. election process. The Electoral College with this year's election just weeks away, a new CNN special report takes a closer look at how the Electoral College actually works. Here's a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The internet was exploding, and we were trying to say, hey, there's actual electors here. Alexander Hamilton wrote one of the Federalist Papers. And in there, he states that electors shall stop any candidate who is unqualified, who is a demagogue, or is controlled by foreign powers.
JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): So Bret (ph), Polly (ph), and Michael started a campaign to convince fellow electors to change their votes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We decided that the only choice to stop Donald Trump, vote for a different Republican candidate and convince 37 Republican electors to do the same.
MICHEAL BACA, DEMOCRATIC COLORADO ELECTOR, 2016: Initially, we had called it the moral electors. We were trying to get electors to vote their conscience and say, hey, the state laws, they're not constitutional.
BERMAN (voice-over): Moral electors soon became the Hamilton electors.
(on-camera): Why are they called Hamilton electors?
LAWRENCE LESSIG, PROFESSOR, HARVARD LAW SCHOOL: In the spirit of Alexander Hamilton, who explicitly describes the Electoral College as comprised of a body of men who would exercise a discretion to select a president who, in their judgment, fit the best interests of the nation.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: New Day anchor John Berman is with me. And John, now we know this has nothing to do with Hamilton, the musical. But I'm glad that you are focusing on this right now because it's very timely and it's relevant and it has inspired many conversations across the country. I heard Pete Buttigieg talk about it last night in an interview as well. But what is it that inspired you to do this programming tonight?
JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: It was absolutely Hamilton, the musical which inspired me to do which just about everything. No, I'm just kidding. Although there is a relevant part of that in 1800 when Hamilton has to weigh in on the election there in tilted toward Thomas Jefferson. What inspired me is what you just said that two out of the last five elections, you have winner of the popular vote that did not win the Electoral College.
And last fall, some of the smart people we deal with like Harry and Nate Silver and Nate Cohn. They started crunching numbers, and realizing that Donald Trump could lose the popular vote by even more and still win the Electoral College. So I thought it was worth going to look into this phenomenon and see why it is that that keeps happening. What it was that caused the founders to create the Electoral College the way that they did.
And as we began looking into this, this Supreme Court case, and you just saw some of the characters in the Supreme Court case, in the promo there, the Supreme Court case came to light. And all of a sudden the Electoral College was being put before the Supreme Court, at least part of it was. And it seemed a really important time to look at this.
GOLODRYGA: And it does seem like all of the experts now who are gauging this election and watching the numbers closely assume that that we could very well see another instance where you've got the popular vote and the Electoral College not aligning. Is this something that we are just going to have to live with going forward? And what does that mean to the country as a whole? It's a loaded question.
BERMAN: I think the answer is, yes. I mean, I think the answer is yes, we have to live with it. Why? Well, because the founders never took it into consideration. It's their fault, in a way. When they created the Electoral College, they really did not have everyday voters in mind. It wasn't designed for a popular vote. They chose not to have a popular vote. They wanted to put it in this, the hands of these people that you just heard our experts talking about there. So it was never conceived.
And then over the years, it just turned into this Frankenstein's monster. This part and that part added and it's nothing compared to what it was in the Constitution. And now in people like Harriet (ph) who've run the numbers. What you have is that the six closest states that Donald Trump won last time are actually wider and have more non college whites, his base of support, then the rest of the country as a whole. So he does have a built in Electoral College advantage. So you could expect this to happen again.
[12:50:06]
And in terms of changing it, it would take a constitutional amendment and that's really hard. You got to get two-thirds in both Houses of Congress and the three corners of the state, or there is something now being tried this national popular vote interstate compact, which some states have signed on to and they say that their electors will go to the winner of the popular vote. Right now, you don't have 270 electors worth of states deciding that but it's not impossible. I guess that that could happen sometime in the future.
GOLODRYGA: Well, to go back to the Hamilton, the musical reference, John Berman never throwing away his shot at tackling a very important and complicated subject. Great to see you my friend. You saw what I did there?
BERMAN: Thanks so much, great to see you, Bianna. Yes. I did. You know, its quiet uptown there like to said.
GOLODRYGA: OK, you win. But I will be watching it tonight. Thank you so much, John. We appreciate it. And be sure to watch Count on Controversy, Inside the Electoral College tonight at 10:00 p.m. Eastern. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[12:55:46]
GOLODRYGA: This Sunday W. Kamau Bell is back with an all new episode of United Shades of America, as protests demonstrating against systemic racism continue across the country. The question of how the United States can reach true racial equality has come up yet again.
One common answer is reparations. Well, this week come out travels to New Orleans to speak with locals about why they think reparations are necessary and what they would look like to them. Here's a preview.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NIKOLE HANNAH JONES, CREATOR OF NEW YORK TIMES "THE 1619 PROJECT": This thing like racism makes you illogical.
W. KAMAU BELL, CNN HOST, UNITED SHADES OF AMERICA: Yes. JONES: So like all of a sudden, all of these concepts of law and morality that we understand everywhere else when it comes to black folks were like, oh, hell no, no, I don't get.
BELL: It doesn't make sense.
JONES: Money do.
BELL: Yes.
JONES: I have to pay you for stuff. I never owned slaves. You didn't have to.
BELL: Yes.
JONES: To me if the government, you know, if you can inherit wealth, which we all understand, then you also inherit debt.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Joining us now is W. Kamau Bell, host of United States of America. Kamau, always great to have you on. First of all, Nicole Hannah Jones, what a great interview to have, was that in a library?
BELL: No. Its black bookstore called the Community Book Center, which is a black bookstore in New Orleans, but it feels like a library.
GOLODRYGA: It's so great. I just get so excited when I see books that I thought what a wonderful way in place to shoot this interview. But why did you choose to go to New Orleans for this episode? And how does that city specifically embody the discussion about race and inequality in the country?
BELL: You know, this is like a lot of episodes United States of America, there's a lot of cities we just shot an episode about reparations in. But I've been in New Orleans a lot as a kid. I vacationed there recently with my family. And New Orleans is a city that you can feel the inequities as you walk through it.
And also, you can see the link back to the antebellum South because they've saved so many of the buildings, they have plantations. So it feels like the conversation is happening there all the time. And it's a city that has a lot of inequity between the white citizens and the black citizens.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, you know, growing up in neighboring Texas, even just going a few hours away to New Orleans, which I love. I love traveling there. You do feel the difference and there's so much history in that city. I'm so glad that you went there for this reporting. In this episode, you attempt to determine a number for just how much money is owed to the black community.
And you come away with a truly staggering figure of $19 trillion. So where does this amount come from? And why is it still just the beginning? BELL: Well, Professor Thomas Kramer from UConn works the Public Policy Center there. He basically figured out that if you had paid enslaved Africans, it would have been 11 cents an hour, I believe, to use 24 hours a day because they did not have control over their life at any part of the day.
And he did it from the beginning of slavery through the Emancipation Proclamation. And then he did an interesting thing where he compounded the interest 3 percent interest a year, and that's how you get to 19 trillion.
But even as he says, that's conservative because it doesn't take into the Jim Crow South. It doesn't take into the inequities and still go into society since the end of slavery, but that and it's basically one year of the GDP. So it's a huge number, but it's not an impossible number in America.
GOLODRYGA: And I'm curious to know you spoke with Nicole Hannah Jones, everyone I know and so many those who don't necessarily even agree with all of her opinions love to hear from her. When you talk about this specific issue of reparations in that dollar amount, even at a time when the country for the most part, the majority of Americans finally get a sense of the racial inequality here by what's been happening, you sense a difference in the country.
Is there any concern that this is happening at a time when the economy is in tatters, when so many families are struggling, when we're doing pieces on food banks that when people hear $19 trillion price tag, it may turn them off from this issue?
BELL: You know, we -- I think we have to have the conversation. And I think if anything, COVID-19 has shown how deep the inequities are. COVID-19 impacting the black community harder is a lot because the inequities have been baked into the black community since we were brought to this country.
So and there's no good time to have a reparations conversation. I've never known a plurality of white people go, let's talk about it now. So I'm just the guy who's like, well, I want to talk about it now. So let's try to talk about it now.
[13:00:02]
GOLODRYGA: I agree with you. I think that, you know, this conversation is something that many people have been talking about. It's been percolating.
