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Mike Pence is Interviewed about Coronavirus, Reopening Schools, QAnon and Bannon; Postmaster General To Testify. Aired 8:30-9a ET
Aired August 21, 2020 - 08:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[08:30:00]
JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: More Americans have died. More than 3 million more Americans have been infected with coronavirus.
So how was the concern overblown?
MIKE PENCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, John, what was -- at that time, as you well remember, we were seeing cases declining from the dramatic rise in cases and the loss of nearly 2,500 Americans a day at the height of this pandemic. Most of our scientists believe that we were -- we were well on our way toward lowering cases and that perhaps the coronavirus like the flu would be seasonal and that we would have a summer respite.
But sometime around Memorial Day, things changed, but all along the way, I think the response of the American people --
(CROSSTALK)
BERMAN: So I think wrong -- you were wrong -- were you wrong on June 16th when you said it was overblown?
PENCE: Well, CNN was wrong a lot early in the year as well, John. We've all been learning all along the way about this coronavirus.
But what's remarkable is because of the president's leadership, when we're reinvented testing, we're doing 800,000 tests a day, because we pulled in American industry to literally create the gowns and the masks and the supplies for our incredible doctors and nurses, because we had major manufacturing repurpose lines to manufacture ventilators.
I learned yesterday at our task force meeting, we have more than 115,000 ventilators in the national stockpile today. We've had medicines that have been developed like Remdesivir. We hope soon that there will be an approval of what's called convalescent plasma.
And as I said, we have many companies -- several companies that are in phase three clinical trials for a vaccine that I believe will -- we'll have before the end of this year.
But we're also not waiting on that. We're actually manufacturing millions of doses of a vaccine so the moment the FDA says it's safe and effective, we'll be able to distribute it to the American people.
BERMAN: On testing --
(CROSSTALK)
PENCE: And so, this is a response that the American people can be proud of.
BERMAN: OK.
PENCE: The fact that this -- that Joe Biden last night said that this economy won't come back --
(CROSSTALK)
BERMAN: Well, Joe Biden hasn't been running the country. Joe Biden hasn't been coordinating the coronavirus pandemic. Vice President Pence --
PENCE: But, Joe Biden said this economy won't come back until the coronavirus is gone.
The reality is, news flash for Joe Biden: the economy's coming back. In the last three months, 9 million Americans have gone back to work because of the solid foundation that President Trump poured.
And I think the only threat to this American economic comeback is a Joe Biden presidency. It's amazing when you think as you talk about the coronavirus pandemic --
(CROSSTALK)
BERMAN: Mr. Vice President, I have a number of more of questions --
PENCE: Joe Biden wants to raise taxes by $4 trillion in a middle of a pandemic.
(CROSSTALK)
BERMAN: I have a number of more questions -- I have a number of more questions for you, and we'll get to this.
PENCE: And that will be a prescription for the economic downturn you could only imagine.
(CROSSTALK)
BERMAN: You're talking about a comeback, again, in terms of the metric -- in terms of the metric, we're still 13 million jobs less than where we were --
PENCE: Right, you're right. We lost 22 million jobs.
BERMAN: We're down 13 million. We're down 13 million jobs. Jobless claims that were reported yesterday just rose again over 1 million a week.
PENCE: Right.
BERMAN: Again, just so our viewers know that. On --
(CROSSTALK)
PENCE: John, I want your viewers -- I want your viewers on CNN to have the facts. Let me be clear --
(CROSSTALK)
BERMAN: You talked about testing. Testing is down this week from last week.
PENCE: We had a total number of 22 million jobs lost in three months, and it's a testament to the resilience of the American economy, to the foundation that President Trump poured. We've had 9 million Americans go back to work.
We think the American comeback will continue. Although I was struck last night, I think I heard Joe Biden not only advocate his $4 trillion tax increase, his $2 trillion Green New Deal, but I think he also opposed the payroll tax cut for working Americans. The president took executive action
(CROSSTALK)
BERMAN: Republicans in the Senate -- Republicans in the Senate -- Mr. Vice President, Republicans in the Senate also opposed a payroll tax cut largely because it does not go to help people who are unemployed.
I have one more question on the pandemic for you --
(CROSSTALK)
PENCE: Well, we're helping people who are unemployed, John, if I may. We're helping people who are unemployed. The president called on the Congress to extend unemployment benefits. When they didn't do it --
(CROSSTALK)
BERMAN: Well, he didn't meet with them. He didn't meet with them.
PENCE: -- we extended unemployment benefits through executive action in about a dozen states --
BERMAN: Mr. Vice President --
PENCE: -- and we already began to implement it.
BERMAN: Mr. Vice President, in your state, in your home state --
PENCE: President Trump and I believe we ought to give relief to the millions of Americans that are working with a payroll tax cut between now and the end of the year. Joe Biden actually said that working Americans shouldn't be able to keep more of what they earn in the middle of a global pandemic. Higher taxes, opposing tax --
(CROSSTALK)
BERMAN: Mr. Vice President, Mr. Vice President, I want to talk about Notre Dame. I want to talk about Notre Dame, which is in your home state.
There are a number of universities that have reopened and then had to go to online-only education.
[08:35:03]
I could ask about any one of them, but I'll ask about Notre Dame because it's in Indiana.
PENCE: Uh-huh.
BERMAN: Again, you are the leader of the Coronavirus Task Force, you have called for schools to open around the country.
PENCE: Right.
BERMAN: So, what then specifically do you think went wrong at Notre Dame?
PENCE: Well, I fully support Father Jenkins' leadership at Notre Dame. I know they've taken -- they've taken a half step back with -- with bringing people back on campus and we'll defer to that.
But look, John, we've got to get our kids back to school. We can't let kids fall behind academically. We also know that millions of American children, whether they're special needs or learning disabilities or children in underprivileged families get nutrition support at our schools.
And so, the president and I made it clear that we want to get our kids back on campus. CDC has --
BERMAN: Right.
PENCE: -- for months been issuing guidance. But I remember the CDC --
BERMAN: But I was asking, Mr. Vice President, I was asking again --
(CROSSTALK)
PENCE: -- that it's a public health priority to get kids back to school and we're absolutely determined to make sure that K-12 and our universities have the support they need to do it.
(CROSSTALK)
BERMAN: Mr. Vice President, I'm asking questions you're not answering. As a leader of the task force, what do you think went wrong at Notre Dame? So that people can look at as an example for something to avoid.
PENCE: Well, I -- I think Father Jenkins -- and by the way, I love Notre Dame. But I think Father Jenkins said that people were congregating off campus so they wanted to take a pause in in-classroom learning to make sure that they have that under control. We respect that.
But the priority has to be we've got to get our kids back to school. We've got to make sure that faculty, teachers like my wife, are taken care of.
It's one of the reasons that the Department of Homeland Security this week added teachers and those who deal in institutional settings with children to our list of essential workers in America.
BERMAN: Right, does that mean -- does that mean -- yes or no.
(CROSSTALK)
PENCE: The priority for PPE and the supplies.
BERMAN: Does that mean they'll be forced to work? Does that mean -- yes or no, quickly on this, does that mean that they will be forced to work if they come into contact with someone with coronavirus?
PENCE: No. Absolutely not, John.
From early on, we -- we provided a list of essential workers that we -- that we encouraged to participate while we asked Americans to go through those 45 days to slow the spread, to stay away from work.
But to keep our economy rolling, to keep our health care economy rolling, to keep food on the table, we recognized that there are essential workers in America.
BERMAN: Mr. Vice President --
PENCE: What it does, John, is it prioritizes supplies and PPE and testing, so we want our teachers to know we're going to continue to prioritize their health, their safety, the safety of our schools, but we're going to work every day and states around the country are safely reopening as we speak. We're going to continue to support that and support our teachers.
BERMAN: I want to ask -- I want to ask, at the White House, the president seemed to embrace QAnon, which is a group that the FBI has warned very likely motivates some domestic extremists to commit criminal, sometimes violent activity. This is a group that peddles theories that say that some politicians and high-profile Hollywood celebrities are member of a satanic cult, they are also cannibals, they say that coronavirus is being disseminated by George Soros, and Bill Gates with the help of 5G networks.
The president said they love America. So, how do those beliefs embody a love of America?
PENCE: Well, you said the president seemed to embrace it. I -- I didn't hear that.
BERMAN: He said they love America, Mr. Vice President. They love America.
PENCE: I don't know anything -- I heard the president take about he appreciates those that support him.
(CROSSTALK)
BERMAN: Do you believe they love America? Do you believe they love America?
PENCE: I don't know anything about that conspiracy theory, John.
BERMAN: How can you not know about it, given it's so much in the news? How can you not about it --
(CROSSTALK)
PENCE: Well, honestly, John, I just -- I don't know anything about that. I have heard about it. We dismiss conspiracy theories around here out of hand.
BERMAN: Well, will you dismiss it? Will you dismiss it?
PENCE: I just did, John.
BERMAN: No, you didn't.
PENCE: We dismiss conspiracy theorists out of hand.
But the point is this president is going to continue to take our case all across this country. We -- the choice in this election has never been clearer. And the stakes have never been higher.
I mean, I'm pleased to be on CNN and speaking with you, but it was amazing to see the Democrats this week painting such a grim picture of America, but all along the way, they never mentioned the violence that's tearing apart and claiming lives in cities around the country. And remarkably, Joe Biden last night never mentioned China.
BERMAN: So, Mr. Vice President --
PENCE: After he condemned the president for suspending travel from China --
BERMAN: But you didn't answer my question.
PENCE: After years of economic surrender to China that cost tens of thousands of American jobs --
BERMAN: Mr. Vice President, I will ask about the RNC -- let me ask about the RNC in just a second --
PENCE: -- Joe Biden never talked about China.
[08:40:00]
BERMAN: Ben Sasse, Ben Sasse said QAnon is nuts. Leaders call conspiracy theories conspiracy theories.
Will you call what they espouse conspiracy theories?
PENCE: I just did, John, I called it's a conspiracy theory.
BERMAN: OK.
PENCE: I said I don't have any (ph) time for it, and I don't know anything about it.
BERMAN: OK, and the RNC --
PENCE: And frankly, honestly, John, I get it. I mean, I get that the media, particularly, CNN chases after shiny objects.
(CROSSTALK)
BERMAN: This is not a shiny object. The FBI -- the FBI --
PENCE: The American people, you know, we're going through a time of testing --
(CROSSTALK)
BERMAN: This isn't a shiny object.
PENCE: We're going through a time of testing -- we're going through a time of testing. We're coming to the time for choosing.
The Democrats have painted a picture of America that was grim and negative and Joe Biden laid out -- you have to look through the platitudes to hear it. But Joe Biden laid out an agenda for higher taxes, socialized medicine, open borders, abortion on demand, and continuing to walk away from the strong support for the men and women of law enforcement.
We're going to -- present a contrast to the American people next week --
BERMAN: Well, on law enforcement, on law enforcement --
(CROSSTALK)
PENCE: -- that's about how we're going to bring our economy back.
BERMAN: Steve Bannon -- Steve Bannon --
PENCE: We're going to stand tall in the world.
BERMAN: -- Steve Bannon was arrested yesterday and charged with defrauding Trump supporters of a lot of money to build a private wall.
You talk about law and order. You talk about the law a lot. It seems there's a blind spot to law and order when it comes to those who surround the president. He's the tenth person now charged with a crime connected to the campaign or the administration.
PENCE: Well, and I don't -- I don't know anything about that case. Steve Bannon certainly deserves his day in court.
But what I will tell you is that as the Democratic Party and Joe Biden advocate giving amnesty to 11 million illegal immigrants and they opposed every step of the way building a wall on our southern border, President Trump used his executive authority, declared a national emergency more than a year ago. And now, we've built more than 300 miles of border wall. Illegal entry into our country and our southern border has dropped dramatically.
Mexico's doing more than they've ever done before to secure our border and theirs, and President Trump on that matter, he denounced that -- that fundraising effort months and months ago, and said that the right way to do this was the way we were doing it.
So, we're going to -- we're going to continue to build the wall.
BERMAN: Mr. Vice President --
PENCE: We're going to continue to fix our broken immigration system.
But again, the choice with Joe Biden and President Donald Trump is a choice between someone who's going to stand up for the rule of law, stand up for safety in our streets and law and order, and Joe Biden who talked about the implicit bias in law enforcement. He talked about systemic racism last night in his speech.
President Trump and I know -- look, we don't have to choose between supporting law enforcement and supporting our African-American community. We have done both. We'll continue to do both.
This president stood with law enforcement, more resources, more support, better training, all of that. But also remember, John, this is a president whose economic policies saw the lowest -- the lowest unemployment ever recorded for African-Americans, historic investments in historically black colleges and universities, and more than 8,000 opportunity zones, and we support giving African-American families, all our minority families, every American family the ability to choose --
BERMAN: You're giving --
PENCE: -- where their kids go to school.
Joe Biden and the Democratic Party oppose giving educational choice and opportunities to our kids.
BERMAN: Mr. Vice President --
PENCE: So we're going to take that whole case to the American people next week. And I can't wait.
BERMAN: Your people -- your people are giving us the hook here. They're saying you need to go.
So I have to let you go here. Mr. Vice President. We appreciate your time. Thanks for coming on.
PENCE: Thank you, John.
ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Joining us now, we have White House correspondent John Harwood and chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta.
Let's start with Sanjay.
Sanjay, you heard John press the vice president there about the death toll and what they're imaging is going to happen over the next months, particularly as fall ramps up. And what did you think of his answer?
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, he didn't -- he didn't really answer it. Obviously, he talked more about some of what they have done and what they're planning on doing. But he didn't really answer that question.
John asked him about the -- his comments back in the middle of June saying, you know, basically saying this thing was over. And we've seen just how much has happened since then, both in terms of the number of people who have become infected and also the number of people who have died since that point.
You know, it was interesting, he has done this -- I've talked to the vice president and the -- and the White House about this. They -- they always come back to this idea that, look, we imposed the travel ban. That is the thing that they -- they sort of rest their -- their laurels on in terms of their -- the action they took.
[08:45:02]
And it is true there was a ban that was placed. It was a pretty porous travel ban, as we now know. There are a lot of people who still came into the country at that point. The country was likely -- the United States that is, was likely already seeded, if you will, by people from -- who had come into this country from China, already before that -- that sort of porous ban went into place. As John correctly pointed out, there was a delayed ban coming out of Europe because we knew that a lot of people who were infected were coming in from Europe as well.
But the larger point is, that was never supposed to be the end all. And even now, in August, that's the first thing the vice president mentions, we lost a month after that. There were many people who were infected in this country. They were undetected because they -- they -- the testing was not out there yet and they continued to spread the virus in a very rampant way, almost unchecked for a month. That's the real problem.
And still, here in August, we still don't have the infrastructure as compared to other countries. I mean, you know, that we could go on and on.
But John also asked about schools, which is a big topic. And, again, I think the vice president either he didn't give an answer and I think he was not knowledgeable about what essential workers really mean. So there was a lot there.
BERMAN: John, very quickly.
JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Look, he didn't accept the fundamental reality that we've seen with the coronavirus, which is, that if you don't get control of the virus, you're not going to have a sustainable economic recovery. Joe Biden made that point last night. Vice President Pence seemed to say, oh, that's wrong, we've added 9 million jobs in the last three months.
Job growth has slowed. Unemployment -- new unemployment claims back up over a million this week. We've seen economic indicators go sideways. And the truth of the matter that you can't get a sustainable recovery unless you get control of the virus is simply out there. He relied on sort of the old lines that they've used all year about the travel ban, as Sanjay just went through.
The other thing I think I just have to point out is he criticized the -- Joe Biden for talking about systemic racism. All the polling shows that the Americans are increasingly concerned about racial injustice. That seemed a little tone deaf. And then you -- he also said Donald Trump's the law and order president and Joe Biden didn't even mention China last night.
Well, remember, President Trump's chief executive of the 2016 campaign, his White House adviser was arrested for fraud yesterday on the boat of a Chinese billionaire. That tells you something about the depth and quality of the responses that the administration has, as did the fact that he felt the need to talk over your questions constantly. He was clearly on the defensive and they've got their work cut out for them in that convention next week.
CAMEROTA: John Harwood, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thank you both very much.
OK, so the U.S. postmaster general will testify before the Senate in a matter of minutes as President Trump steps up his attacks on mail-in voting. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[08:52:00]
BERMAN: Moments from now, Postmaster General Louis DeJoy will face questions from senators after installing drastic changes to the U.S. Postal Service. This is ahead of a November election that will rely heavily on mail-in voting.
Joining me now is Richard Hasen. He's a professor of law and political science at UC Irvine. He's the author of "Election Meltdown: Dirty Tricks, Distrust and the Threat to American Democracy." He's an authority on this subject. Rick, Professor, great to have you.
You have a very specific concern and I want your help educating our viewers and Americans on this, which is, for election night, the possibility that given the number of mail-in ballots and the way that we are going to vote this year, we may not know our results. So what do Americans need to know and how does that inform what the president has been trying to do?
RICHARD HASEN, PROFESSOR OF LAW AND POLITICAL SCIENCE, UC IRVINE: Well, I mean, there are two factors are coming together here. Number one, because of Covid-19, so many more people are voting by mail. And it takes a lot longer to process those vote by mail ballots because they have to be checked to make sure that people who say they are, are actually the ones voting and all of that.
Number two, the president is making unsupported claims that vote by mail is full of fraud. This is encouraging his supporters to vote in person, while everyone else might be voting by mail. The bottom line is, in places like Pennsylvania, you think about swing states that don't have a lot of experience with vote by mail, you could well have a situation that Trump is ahead on election night as the in-person votes are counted and a week later we hear that Joe Biden is the winner.
And Trump has already said in earlier elections, if, you know, the results come in on election night, those are the ones we should go with. And he said it about this election too. And so I'm concerned that he would -- might try to prematurely declare victory and then there would be a lot of confusion in the country as to who the actual winner of the election is.
BERMAN: The people need to know the election is not over until the votes are counted and it is perfectly legal -- perfectly legal -- for votes to be counted, in some cases, for ballots that are arriving even after Election Day. So people need to be prepared for that. And I know that we are prepared, in the media, not to call elections until we see all the ballots counted.
I want to play some sound which I know jumped out from you from President Trump last night. And this isn't even talking about mail-in voting. This is talking about in-person voting and what he intends to do, I think, to influence it.
Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you going to have an ability to monitor, to avoid fraud and -- and cross check whether or not these are registered voters, whether or not there's been identification, to know that it's a real vote from a real American?
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're going to have everything. We're going to have sheriffs and we're going have law enforcement and we're going to have hopefully U.S. attorneys and we're going to have everybody, and attorney generals.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: That's a really big deal that the president is essentially saying he's sending sheriffs, which he has no power to do, but sending law enforcement in to monitor elections. This was something that was specifically prohibited in some ways for some time, Professor.
HASEN: So back in 1982, the Republican National Committee was put under a court order. It actually agreed to the court order to settle a case where they would not engage in these so-called ballot security measures.
[08:55:02]
They were sending off duty police officers into minority voting precincts and intimidating minority voters. That consent decree expired in 2017. And so now Trump and the RNC might try to engage in so called poll watching activities. It's against federal law for federal officials to send troops into the polling places. If Trump's trying to do this with off duty officers, I expect that there's going to be litigation from Democrats and from voting rights groups to try to stop any kind of intimidation at the polls.
But it could be, as we saw in 2016, that this is just more Trump bluster. Both Trump and Roger Stone, through his separate Stop the Steal (ph) organization, said they weren't going to engage in poll watching activities in Democratic and minority areas and then nothing materialized. So we're going to watch this very closely but it's not clear what the end game is right now with this -- with these statements that he made last night.
BERMAN: Look, it's a big deal if he does it. It's a huge deal merely mentioning it might have the impact of trying to depress the vote in and of itself.
Professor, it's a pleasure to have you on. I want to invite you back because you are an expert on this and it's really important that people listen to what you have to say here.
HASEN: Thanks so much.
BERMAN: And, Alisyn, again, one of the things that we've talked about is election night we may not know. And that's OK. We have to be OK with that.
CAMEROTA: Yes, but we do need to alert people, to be -- get mentally prepared --
BERMAN: Yes.
CAMEROTA: That we may be on the air all night, you'll see a lot of us, and you might not know.
BERMAN: All right, there's a lot going on this morning.
CNN's coverage continues right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[09:00:00]
ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: Good Friday morning. I'm Erica Hill.
KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everybody, I'm Kate Bolduan.
Moments from now, President Trump's postmaster general, Louis DeJoy, he's facing off with lawmakers right
