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Professor Karen Swallow Prior Discusses Jerry Falwell Jr. Resigning From Liberty University Amid Sex Scandal; Wendell Harris, President, NAACP Waukesha, Wisconsin, Branch, Discusses Jacob Blake Shooting By Police & Protests; The Message From A Family That Lost Two Family Members To COVID-19. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired August 25, 2020 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[14:32:42]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: He was one of the first prominent evangelicals to support Trump in 2016. Now Jerry Falwell Jr is mired in scandal and his job as president of the Liberty University is over. The executive committee of the school's board accepted his resignation moments ago,

This, after a Miami man has claimed he had a long-running affair with Falwell's wife and Falwell watched them while they were intimate over several years.

As the allegations came to light, Falwell agreed to resign from his Liberty University post and said he wasn't resigning, but then finally told CNN he would step down.

Professor Karen Swallow Prior taught at Liberty University for 21 years. She's now a research professor at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, and joins me now.

Professor, thanks for being with us.

You told the "Washington Post" that morale was low and frustration was growing at Liberty University for years under Falwell's leadership. Can you talk more about that?

KAREN SWALLOW PRIOR, RESEARCH PROFESSOR, SOUTHEASTERN BAPTIST THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY & FORMER PROFESSOR, LIBERTY UNIVERSITY: Sure, I mean, the kinds of things that have been revealed over the past couple of days are not things that happen in isolation. There have been red flags for a long time.

The kind of arrogance and authoritarian leadership that we experienced as faculty was really just a symptom of this lifestyle that obviously was one in which he thought that he could do anything and get away with it.

COOPER: It seems like -- I remember there was a case even before this one, of a trainer to the couple, who ended up with an advantageous property deal, which the university says was all on the up-and-up. But as you said, there have been red flags over the years.

SWALLOW PRIOR: Absolutely. I mean, just as we saw with Jeffrey Epstein's case and Harvey Weinstein's and all of the "Me Too" moments that we're dealing with today, there are plenty of red flags. It's just difficult to prove something without corroboration.

We have to move methodically and give due process. And these things take time. We're just thankful that the truth has come out and it can be dealt with and the university can move on and continue its great mission that it's been doing for 50 years now.

[14:35:01]

COOPER: Falwell called the parent of a student a dummy for questioning him when keeping students at the campus during the coronavirus this year. And later, he apologized after showing a tweet that showed one person black-faced and another person in a KKK hood and robe.

Amid that kind of behavior, was his power at Liberty University -- I mean, you called it authoritarian. Was it power kind of unchecked for a long time?

SWALLOW PRIOR: It was absolutely unchecked. You have to understand that, as Christians, at a Christian university, we are all serving. We believe in the mission. We believe in our students. We want to support them. So we're kind of busy doing our jobs.

As evangelicals, we tend to trust authorities and institutions probably too much. I think we're all learning the error of those ways.

And so we also just maybe don't want to believe those rumors and we would rather wish that they aren't true.

But we have a responsibility to pay attention, to listen to women, to listen to other victims of abuse, and to pursue these red flags until we know what the truth is and the truth is revealed.

COOPER: Falwell is credited with Liberty University's financial recovery since he took over in 2007. He said he was never a minister. He's a businessman.

I mean, is there still support for him at Liberty University, do you think, among the faculty or trustees or students?

SWALLOW PRIOR: I think now that these revelations have come out, it's clear that for too long money was put before other things.

The university certainly did flourish under his leadership in one sense. But you cannot separate financial success from the mission of the school.

And while it's healthy now, and I think that we have reached this turning point just in time, we need to, I think, just clean house and reorient the university to its original mission.

And I'm faithful that the board now is awake, has their eyes open, and they will do that.

COOPER: This is not the first time there's been people who seem hypocritical, who profess one thing and then, in their private lives, seem to be doing something else entirely.

So it's not a surprise. In fact, it's sort of almost become a stereotype and predictable in some cases.

But nevertheless, it is harmful for those -- you know, for people of faith to have somebody who professes to be a model of faith behave like this over the course of many years. It hurts everybody.

SWALLOW PRIOR: It absolutely does. And of course, it hurts not only me personally, but I have many students who were aware of these things who are hurt and struggling and doubting their faith now. So the consequences are dire.

But ultimately, it does point to the fact that the core of our belief that we are too put our faith in God, not in man.

COOPER: Karen Swallow Prior, I really appreciate talking to you. Thank you very much.

SWALLOW PRIOR: Thank you.

Protesters in Kenosha, Wisconsin, are outraged about another shooting of an unarmed black man at the hands of police. Peaceful protests in the day turned into standoffs with police and National Guard last night. You saw a vehicle has been lit on fire, property damaged.

All of this after police shot Jacob Blake seven times in his back Sunday. His children witnessing it all. The incident videotaped by bystanders.

Demonstrators set several buildings on fire and cars. City leaders are calling for calm amid the unrest.

Blake's father tells CNN his son has been paralyzed but remains in stable condition in the ICU.

Wendell Harris is president of the NAACP Wisconsin state conference branch. He is with me.

Thank so much for being with us.

The video of the shooting has been seen by millions of people all over the world. It has sparked demonstrations, obviously outrage.

I'm wondering what your reaction was when you saw it? It starts with Mr. Blake moving from the passenger rear side of the vehicle -- of a vehicle to the driver's side. We don't know what happened before. But what was your reaction when you say it?

WENDELL HARRIS, MEMBER,, NATIONAL BOARD OF DIRECTORS & PRESIDENT, NAACP WAUKESHA, WISCONSIN BRANCH: When I saw the shooting for the first time, my wife and I were sitting on our couch watching the evening news.

And my first response was, how could this person just follow this man to a car and shoot him in the back. It was almost unbelievable.

But having things happen the way they've happened in Wisconsin with the George Floyd and all the other black men I've seen shot in the back, shot and killed in the state of Wisconsin and around this country for many years, it almost becomes normal.

[14:40:04]

And that was my first response, just plain anger and bewilderment.

COOPER: I talked to the governor of Wisconsin yesterday and he said it might be some period of time -- you know, it's not going to be immediately that we're going to hear investigators.

Do you have confidence in the investigation that is ongoing? Because the Kenosha police immediately handed it over to other authorities to actually investigate, which I guess is the procedure.

HARRIS: Well, for me, as a state conference president of the NAACP, and a national board member, it's not a question of whether we have confidence.

We demand that there's a thorough investigation, a fair investigation, and we're going to receive that. We're going to get that.

We now have a governor in Wisconsin who has called for a special session on police accountability, a governor that has clearly shown that he and his administration is about all the people in Wisconsin being treated with respect and dignity, unlike his predecessor.

So if we turned the clock back one day and the predecessor was in office, I would have no confidence that we were going to do anything to alleviate some of this anger and fear that the police department have concerning black men to where they take their guns out and shoot us at the drop of a hat.

I know that this is going to change under the new governor. And the NAACP is going to be at the table and making those policies that bring about change.

COOPER: We've heard from our correspondents that the Blake family has said that they're happy that -- I don't know if happy is the right word -- but they appreciate that people are focused on this and are protesting and having their voices heard.

They're also calling for it to be nonviolent protests, not any kind of destruction linked to Mr. Blake.

What is the scene, the situation now on the ground in Kenosha?

HARRIS: Well, as protests are taking place right behind me, I can hear it coming from on the right side in the plaza.

You know, I can't step away from the camera to give you a full description, but the protests are still taking place.

And, yes, we do not -- the NAACP does not support the violence or the looting, for that matter. We want to work this out and protect other people's property.

We want everybody to be respected regardless of race or what political affiliation they're part of.

This is about us coming together as a nation and respecting each other as people. And that's what we're fighting for. And that's what we're going to continue to fight for.

But I certainly support -- as the Wisconsin state conference president, I support the young people's right to protest.

I don't want anyone to get the impression that the NAACP don't want to see the protests. Because I'll be the first one out fighting with them if anyone tries to take away that right.

COOPER: Wendell Harris, I appreciate your time. And I'm sorry it's under these circumstances. Thank you.

HARRIS: Thank you again for having us on the show. Good day.

COOPER: Take care. Take care.

Thousands of families across the country are living their worst nightmare, losing a loved one to the coronavirus. Coming up, one family's story after losing not one, but two members of the family. What they have to say to others who aren't taking the virus seriously.

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[14:48:03]

COOPER: Every day we hear about the number of coronavirus cases and the death toll. More than half a year into the pandemic. people have become numb to what the numbers mean. But behind every number is a person who suffered, along with their families.

A Remillard family is facing a reality they couldn't fathom four months ago. On June 28th, at 2:45 p.m., coronavirus took the life of 72-year-old, Ron Remillard. And at 3:48 p.m., a little more than an hour later, it claimed the life of his son, 43-year-old Dan Remillard.

Dianne Remillard, her daughter, Cindy Archambault, and Dan's oldest son, Dilyn Remillard, join us now.

Thank you for being with us. I am so sorry for your losses.

Cindy, tell us about how this has been for you. The timing of this, how this happened. Who got sick first, Cindy?

CINDY ARCHAMBAULT, LOST TWO FAMILY MEMBERS TO CORONAVIRUS: My brother, Danny, got sick first. He was -- actually, the way it first started was his wife, Liz, worked in a nursing home and she was working on the COVID unit and she tested positive one day.

So she went and isolated herself in her room. And my brother went in, was tested a couple of days later, and found out he was positive. And their youngest daughter was positive as well. Dilyn and Gavin were negative. So that's how it started.

COOPER: And, Dianne, I can't imagine how you are -- how you're holding up. I mean, your family is incredibly strong. You've lost your husband, your son.

Did they know each other's condition? Were they aware about each other?

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[14:50:07]

DIANNE REMILLARD, LOST TWO FAMILY MEMBERS TO CORONAVIRUS: Well, my son -- my husband was told -- my husband was told but he has dementia. He was in a nursing home.

So we asked him to pray for my son who ended up at Rhode Island Hospital on May 14th. So I asked my husband to pray for his son. But unfortunately, he did keep forgetting because of his dementia.

And my son did not know that my husband had gotten it because, by then, my son had been in the hospital already for four, five, weeks.

ARCHAMBAULT: Five weeks.

DIANNE REMILLARD: So he didn't know about my husband testing positive. And my husband ended up at the V.A. hospital five weeks after my son ended up in the hospital with it.

So, it was very difficult --

COOPER: Yes.

DIANNE REMILLARD: -- to say the least.

COOPER: Yes. Of course.

Dilyn, I know more than 100 family and friends, church members, were on a Zoom call saying good-bye to your dad. What was he like?

DILYN REMILLARD, LOST TWO FAMILY MEMBERS TO CORONAVIRUS: Just a joyful person. He could put a smile on anyone's face.

DIANNE REMILLARD: He was awesome.

Everybody loved him. Everyone loved my son. He was so helpful to everyone. He had more than 100 calls through Zoom --

COOPER: Wow.

DIANNE REMILLARD: -- on the day that we decided to pull the plug on him. I hate to say it that way.

But it was remarkable how many people called to say their good-byes to my son.

And while we were saying good-byes to our son is when I got the phone call to my daughter and getting the phone call that my husband had just passed away.

COOPER: Oh, my gosh.

DIANNE REMILLARD: So --

ARCHAMBAULT: I just told -- I just said when I received the phone call, we were still on Zoom so I just --

COOPER: Oh, my gosh.

ARCHAMBAULT: -- went on and said, go with daddy, Danny. Daddy's waiting for you. I'm sure he was right there at the foot of the bed waiting for my son because they were best friends in life. You know? So it's just fitting that they left together.

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: I mean, that's incredible.

How do you -- I mean, it must have been a comfort to know how many lives that they both touched. I mean, to have so many people there on the zoom call.

DIANNE REMILLARD: Yes.

COOPER: Paying their respects. It shows what kind of lives they led.

DIANNE REMILLARD: Yes. They were awesome.

He was a great father. Has a great son. Oh, my god. He was unbelievable.

My husband was doing that really, taught him all the values. I admire him for that. I'm grateful. We had such a great family. My daughter as well.

She's all I have left now as far as, you know, I had only two children. My daughter and my son. And I have a lot of grandchildren and my daughter-in-law who's having a hard time with this as well. And we all are. We're having a very difficult time. We're dealing with both losses.

COOPER: It's also --

DIANNE REMILLARD: It's difficult.

Cindy, what do you want people out there to know about what you've been through and about what they should do? I mean, obviously, there's a lot of people who don't take this

seriously. Don't think this is, you know, as potentially threatening to them as it has been to others.

What would you say to them?

ARCHAMBAULT: It's not -- it's not a hoax. This is real. And it's serious. It's like a silent killer.

You know, my father went through the Vietnam War, survived that. My brother survived a motorcycle accident. To be killed by a germ. You know --

DIANNE REMILLARD: A virus.

ARCHAMBAULT: It's --

(CROSSTALK)

DIANNE REMILLARD: A little -- something you can't see.

ARCHAMBAULT: And they -- people are saying this is just a hoax and it's all the government doing this.

And it's real. It's real. We felt this firsthand. We don't want anybody else to have to go through what we're going through. It's devastating. And it -- it hurts.

DILYN REMILLARD: I know at the beginning of, you know, the virus, I wasn't taking it serious. I kind of, like, you know, just about when, you know, Ebola was going around.

[14:55:08]

You know, me being in school. You know, all me and my friends would just laugh about it, make jokes about, oh, yes, I got Ebola and stuff like that.

So this was one of those things that I kind of thought was -- it would never reach, you know, me or my family or, you know, my family. It was something I never thought of then.

When I got that phone call that day that my stepmom had it and, you know, and then, you know, I was worried about everybody. My dad had been through the motorcycle accident. He had underlying conditions.

COOPER: Right.

DILYN REMILLARD: And it was just, you know, them being with the two kids in the house, Gavin and Evabella (ph), you know, it was just -- it worried me. And then, you know, I started getting the phone calls that dad was going into the hospital and all that.

COOPER: Yes.

Dilyn, I'm so sorry for what you've experienced. Dianne, Cindy, I wish you peace in your grief and strength in the days

ahead.

Thank you so much. Our thoughts and prayers are with you.

DIANNE REMILLARD: Can I say one more thing, please?

COOPER: Sure. Yes, please.

DIANNE REMILLARD: I just want to say thank you so much to all the nurses and doctors that took care of my son at Rhode Island Hospital. And all the nurses and doctors at the V.A. they did an awesome job. They really did.

ARCHAMBAULT: Yes.

DIANNE REMILLARD: They worked so hard to keep them alive as long as they did.

COOPER: Yes.

DIANNE REMILLARD: I appreciate it.

COOPER: Dianne, Cindy, Dilyn, thank you very much.

We're back in a moment.

ARCHAMBAULT: Thank you.

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