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White House Refuses to Condemn Armed Vigilantes; Biden Blasts Trump Over Unrest in America; Will Trump Administration Rush Out COVID-19 Vaccine?. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired August 31, 2020 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:07]

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: Brianna, thank you.

Hi there. I'm Brooke Baldwin. You're watching CNN. Good to be here.

We begin with the United States reaching yet another devastating milestone. There are more than six million confirmed cases of coronavirus all across this country. More than 183,000 people have died, mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, young, old, everyone in between among the victims.

Meanwhile, new concerns about this administration's strategy. "The Washington Post" today is reporting that one of the president's top medical advisers is urging the White House to embrace this controversial concept. It's called herd immunity. And it is a strategy that essentially would let the virus spread among the population, hoping a natural immunity is developed.

Let me get you back to that in just a second.

But we are now seeing new hot spots emerge with spikes across the Midwest. There is some good news. Recent trouble spots like Florida and Georgia are seeing their lowest case numbers in months.

On the vaccine front, new concerns that the White House may be trying to rush the process. The head of the FDA, Stephanie Hahn -- excuse me -- Stephen Hahn, tells "The Financial Times" his agency might grant emergency use authorization to a vaccine before its phase three trials are complete, his comments coming roughly a week after President Trump accused the FDA of slow-walking a vaccine.

Today, top medical experts are calling out the administration. They want an independent commission separate from the FDA to review COVID vaccine candidates before they become available.

So, let's start there.

With me now, CNN senior medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen and CNN White House correspondent Kaitlan Collins.

And so, Elizabeth, first, on this independent review, why do these top doctors think that that would be necessary here?

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: So, Brooke, these doctors fear that too many Americans have become distrustful of the way this whole vaccine approval process has been going.

The comments that you mentioned from Dr. Hahn, other factors, have made too many Americans say, I don't know that I'm going to trust this vaccine when it comes out. In fact, our own CNN polling from earlier this month shows that 40 percent of Americans won't take the vaccine when it comes out.

So, these doctors -- and, let me tell you, these are not fringy anti- vax doctors. On the contrary, these are infectious disease doctors from Harvard, from UNC, from NYU. They are telling me that their own colleagues don't want to get this vaccine.

BALDWIN: Wow.

COHEN: These are doctors and nurses who vaccinate their own children, but who say, I am nervous about this vaccine.

So, for that reason, these doctors say, look, let's create an independent commission that will have all the access to the data, can consider the data, and they can say whether or not they think this vaccine belongs on the market -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: We had already talked there was already some worry just even about being in that first round of recipients to a vaccine, let alone the notion of taking a vaccine that hasn't been fully green-lit.

Kaitlan, to you.

As I alluded to a second ago, there's also this new voice who has the president's ear, his newest virus adviser, Scott Atlas. And he is reportedly the one really pushing this herd immunity strategy, all the while Dr. Fauci seems to be sidelined.

Who is Atlas? And what is he suggesting?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Dr. Scott Atlas is this person who came to the White House after the president had seen him in multiple appearances on FOX News.

He had gone on there several times. He is a doctor, obviously, someone with M.D. behind his name, who often has backed up some of the claims that the president and his aides have made, not only when it comes to immunity for potential coronavirus patients and people who've had coronavirus, but also school openings and college football teams playing this fall.

He's really backed up a lot of the president's own notions when it comes to coronavirus. And that's the reason he was hired. So it's not surprising that, now that he is inside the White House and he's been elevated to this role, that he's continuing to push for something that he pushed beforehand on FOX News, which, one, was herd immunity. What's new here is that this is something that other doctors on the

task force and other medical experts inside the White House do not agree with Dr. Atlas on, but it's coming at a time when Dr. Atlas is increasingly having more access to the president.

He has more influence on the president than these other doctors, not just Dr. Fauci, but also Dr. Birx as well, someone who works out of the West Wing and used to meet very regularly with the president, and now has seen that kind of change, given the shift in the role now that Dr. Atlas is on the team.

And that was the concern that we reported when Dr. Atlas was brought on, that they were essentially bringing someone in who did have medical credentials that was backing up the president on what he had to say and was going to counter other people like Dr. Fauci, like Dr. Birx, who have been here, have been on the task force since the beginning.

BALDWIN: I want to start on that precise point with my next guest.

Kaitlan and Elizabeth, thank you both so much.

With me now, Dr. Jorge Rodriguez, an internal medicine and viral specialist.

And, Dr. Rodriguez, nice to see you.

(CROSSTALK)

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BALDWIN: I want to start with this idea of herd immunity.

And, again, herd immunity, if you're tuning and you're like, what is that, it essentially would mean, officials would relax the idea of social distancing and allow coronavirus to spread through a healthier population, so then they can build resistance to the virus.

And, Dr. Rodriguez, we will get into whether or not this has worked in Sweden in a moment, but, first, is this a smart idea to do here?

DR. JORGE RODRIGUEZ, INTERNIST: I don't believe it's a smart idea to do here. We don't know enough.

Herd immunity is basically survival of the fittest. And it hopes that, if enough people in the population get infected, that, therefore, they can't spread it, and eventually less and less people can get the infection.

What we don't know is how many people, what percentage of the people in this population are going to need to get infected with this coronavirus. Different viruses require different percentages for herd immunity. It could be 70. It could be 95. We don't know.

And until that happens, there's some estimates that approximately two million people may die. It's reckless. BALDWIN: So I hear you say reckless. On the other hand, you have

proponent to the strategy, and they say, hey, look at Sweden, that's an example of successful herd immunity. For more than a week now, Sweden hasn't had a single COVID death.

But when you read "The Washington Post" on herd immunity, this is what they say -- quote -- "Sweden's handling of the pandemic has been heavily criticized by public health officials and infectious disease experts as" -- your word -- "reckless. The country has among the highest infection and death rates in the world. It also has an escape the deep economic problems resulting from the pandemic."

So you hear both of this. Like, do you think herd immunity has worked in Sweden or no?

RODRIGUEZ: I don't think so.

And if you listen to the leaders there in Sweden, they are saying that they are not doing herd immunity. Indeed, actually, they're not, because they're restricting groups, nothing greater than 50. They are suggesting social isolation.

Herd immunity is much more laissez-faire, just let it all open. And, really, if this is being driven by some hopes of economic recovery, Sweden is the first one that has approximately a 9 percent rate of unemployment. So, it is not affecting or helping that in any way.

Their mortality rate is as high as the United States. So, it is a mixed bag. It is by no means an out-and-out success in Sweden.

BALDWIN: Well, the man who is pushing this, as we mentioned a second ago, Dr. Scott Atlas. He's this neuroradiologist from Stanford's conservative Hoover Institution. He joined the White House as a virus adviser recently.

As his influence is on the rise, Dr. Fauci's influence seems to be diminishing. And on the point of a vaccine. We are learning that the FDA is willing to authorize a vaccine before phase three trials are complete.

And we know that Dr. Fauci has really been steadfast that they have to get it right on this COVID vaccine. And, surely, a vaccine prior to November 3 wouldn't hurt Trump's reelection hopes.

But, Dr. Rodriguez, can you explain how they can actually approve a vaccine before it fully completes all the trials?

RODRIGUEZ: Well, the biggest concern that most medicine people and scientists have at this time is that politics is driving science.

If you have a--

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Do you think it is?

RODRIGUEZ: I do believe, to some degree, it absolutely is.

I mean, we can see that by the changes that the CDC has made in recommendations for testing, the quick approval of antibody plasma without proof, and then walking back the statistics that they said.

So, when a study is designed, it ahead of time tells you how long it's going to be going. It tells you how many people need to be in that study to reach statistical significance. The only way that a phase three trial can be stopped is that the evidence is so compelling on one arm of the other compared -- one arm compared to the other that there is no doubt.

And this is based on science and statistics. So is it possible? Yes. Is it likely? Very unlikely, because the endpoint of that study is something, I think, at like 48 weeks to see how many people, compared to the people that didn't get vaccines, are going to get COVID.

So it would be very unusual for it to be approved ahead of time.

BALDWIN: Would you trust it?

RODRIGUEZ: No. No, I would not, because if something is rushed without evidence, A, we don't know that it works, but more of greater concern, we don't know what the long-term side effects are going to be.

And if you tell people that already don't trust science and a vaccine, hey, this works, and then it doesn't, man, we are really, really in it up to our ankles or higher.

BALDWIN: Dr. Jorge Rodriguez, thank you. Thank you so much.

Coming up on CNN: Joe Biden moments ago blasting President Trump in a speech on violence in the United States -- why the former vice president says Trump is rooting for chaos, his word.

[15:10:08]

And more coronavirus cases popping up on college campuses, but Dr. Deborah Birx says, students should not go back home.

Plus, the emotional tributes are still pouring in after the sudden passing of actor Chadwick Boseman. We will look at his powerful legacy that he's left behind.

You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

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BALDWIN: We're back. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Now to the protests for social justice that have drawn millions of Americans to the streets and put race front and center in this presidential election.

President Trump is trying to convince Americans that the violence that has occurred at some of the peaceful demonstrations, violence that has at times involved his own supporters, it's a preview of what would happen if Joe Biden wins the White House.

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He says that, even though all of this is happening on his watch.

But, today, Joe Biden is striking back. In a speech in Pittsburgh, he took aim at his rival's words and actions, saying his reelection bid is based on one factor alone: fear.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSEPH BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This president long ago forfeited any moral leadership in this country. He can't stop the violence, because, for years, he's fomented it.

These are not images of some imagined Joe Biden America in the future. These are images of Donald Trump's America today. He keeps telling you, if only he was president, it wouldn't happen, if he was president. He keeps telling us, if he was president, you would feel safe.

Well, he is president, whether he knows it or not. And it is happening. It's getting worse.

And you know why. Because Donald Trump adds fuel to every fire.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Biden speaking on this, as the cities of Portland and Kenosha, Wisconsin, are reeling this Monday afternoon after protests turned deadly.

In Kenosha, two people were killed in demonstrations after Jacob Blake was shot seven times in the back by a white Kenosha police officer. And in Portland, Oregon, a man was shot and killed Saturday during clashes between Trump supporters and street protesters. Police have not identified the victim, but we know that he was wearing a Patriot Prayer hat. That's a group known for previous clashes with left-wing demonstrators.

Now, President Trump is still planning to travel to Kenosha tomorrow, despite these pleas from the Wisconsin governor, Tony Evers, not to do so. His visit raising fears that it will inflame an already volatile situation.

CNN's Shimon Prokupecz is live in Kenosha.

And, Shimon, we know what the governor is saying. What about the mayor, what about city leaders ahead of Trump's visit tomorrow?

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: So, certainly, city leaders do not want the president here. We have been hearing that for the past few days once it was announced that the president was coming here. And today, again, the mayor at a press conference reiterated the fact that he did not want the president coming here. And here's what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN ANTARAMIAN (D), MAYOR OF KENOSHA, WISCONSIN: I put my statement out early yesterday morning that I felt that the timing was wrong. We always have room for presidents to come to visit, candidates to come to visit. That's the process that you have, and it's something that we would -- we appreciate and have people do.

But we did make the request for him to do it a different time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PROKUPECZ: So, a lot of details we do not have as to who the president is going to be meeting with. We know it's law enforcement. The White House says there will be some business owners that he's going to be leading with -- meeting with.

But that's all we really know. The other thing at this press conference, the county, the county leader here for Kenosha said they're going to try to make some changes with the police department. They're going to put some money in the budget for body cameras, and then they will wind up -- once that is approved, they will start distributing some of those body cameras to their officers.

That's going to be a big improvement. We know that the Kenosha police here, one of the critical pieces of evidence that would have helped in this entire thing is body camera video. And we don't have that because they don't wear them here.

So, perhaps maybe this money will go towards that. And everything else, really, everyone just awaits.

In terms of the Jacob Blake investigation, we have not heard any new details of really since Friday. We're still waiting on that investigation to move along, and so that we can learn some new information. And, as for the president, we will see. We're waiting on those details. And, hopefully, we will get them before his arrival here tomorrow -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: Shimon Prokupecz, thank you so much. I'm sure we will be reporting any of those details out that you will get your hands on. Thank you.

Let's go to now Portland, Oregon, where tensions are mounting following that deadly shooting during clashes between Trump supporters and anti-police brutality protesters.

Earlier this afternoon, White House Press Secretary Kayleigh McEnany refuse to condemn armed vigilantes who have been on the streets in places such as Portland or Kenosha. Instead, she pivoted to the issue of funding for police.

Josh Campbell is live for us in Portland, Oregon.

And so, Josh, what's the latest there?

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Hi, my friend.

well, it was a violent weekend here in the city of Portland, especially on Saturday, where you had group of protesters here that have been here for over 90 nights that were met with hundreds of pro- Trump supporters who came in at a caravan into downtown.

Police tell us that there were clashes between these groups. Several arrests were made. And, as you mentioned, one person was shot and killed during an encounter. Police are not releasing information, the details on that yet, but we do know, as you mentioned, from our colleagues at "The New York Times" that the deceased individual had a hat with an insignia of a far right group.

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And so the question here, really the worry for law enforcement, is whether there would be additional elements of far right group members coming in to try to seek retribution.

So, as that violence plays out, there's this war of words that is continuing between President Donald Trump and local city officials. Yesterday, the mayor pushing back and really putting this on the president, his toxic rhetoric, saying that he is largely to blame for a lot of violence.

The president yesterday -- and this is just the sign of the modern times -- was live-tweeting that press conference, lobbing missives at the Portland mayor. This morning, he's also back on his favorite medium, Twitter, talking about the Portland mayor, writing in a tweet: "Portland is a mess. And it has been for many years. If this joke of a mayor doesn't clean it up, we will go in and do it for them."

That is the pattern we have seen from President Trump, threatening to send more federal forces into this city. As you mentioned, one thing that is notable is that, while the president has gone after Democrats here, has gone after the Black Lives Matter protesters, he's not condemning the vigilante groups or his pro-Trump supporters who were here also engaged in violence.

But that is notable that -- what they choose to condemn and what they choose not to condemn. While this is all playing out, this debate between these elected officials, the governor here in the state of Oregon, is really trying to put together a plan that will help try to ease some of the tensions here.

Now, I will tell you about this plan. It has really got three prongs. They're trying to get three counties together here in the state, in order to provide resources to police. They're also talking about having federal prosecutors and FBI agents help with the situation as well, and then the Oregon State Police getting involved. And, lastly, it's really important to note that the Oregon governor

wants to -- he wants to get together a group of community leaders to try to talk through some of the issues to talk about what the issues are that are leading to a lot of these protests, a forum to help air grievances, to talk about important issues.

That's not something we have seen from the president. He just continues to slam leaders, threatening to use overwhelming force here in the city. That continues. It's yet to be seen how long these protests and how long some of the violence will continue -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: That's the key question. And the real fear, to your point, this lack of condemnation from the leader of this country could mean violence up into and after this presidential election.

Josh Campbell, thank you so much in Portland.

Still ahead here: COVID cases rising on college campuses -- what schools are doing and, equally important, not doing about it.

And the flood of emotional tributes coming in for accurate Chadwick Boseman. Let's talk about that today and just discuss his amazing life and legacy.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:27:30]

BALDWIN: Let's continue where we just left off, more on this fight between President Trump and former Vice President Joe Biden, as both men try to persuade voters that the other is just wrong on the issue of racial justice.

Wendell Harris is the president of the Wisconsin branch of the NAACP. And Angela Rye is a CNN political commentator and former executive director of the Congressional Black Caucus.

So, a huge welcome to both of you.

And, Wendell, I want to start with you first, sir.

You know, you have called for the state legislature to take up these two police reform bills proposed by Wisconsin's governor after the Jacob Blake shooting. We know that the legislature is holding a special session today on police training and policy.

But Republican lawmakers aren't expected to show up. It's likely no votes or no debate will even take place. So, how does the state move forward on this issue?

WENDELL HARRIS, PRESIDENT, WISCONSIN NAACP: Frankly, we just have to keep pushing.

And I just received a press release from Government Evers' office a little while ago asking all of us to continue to contact our legislators and the Senate and other leaders just to try and keep pushing this, and to continue to make it really clear and visible to everyone that the Republican legislature has not -- and -- the Senate and the legislature do not have the best interests of the people at heart in their mind when it comes to police accountability.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: But, Mr. Harris, how do you keep pushing? How do you make it more clear?

We're talking about a human being with seven shots in his back. How do you make it more clear?

HARRIS: Frankly, again, we just have to keep saying the same thing.

If you keep pushing, and don't give up -- we just cannot give up. And just go to the polls and vote and get those people out of office. We will have a new day, when that day comes. And it's going to take all of us going to the polls to vote and make this change in Wisconsin.

BALDWIN: Now, Angela, to you.

We know that President Trump retweeted "Rest in peace" about the Portland victim who was described as one of the president's own supporters, but the most he has said about Jacob Blake is that -- quote -- "It is not a good sight" and that police must be respected, and those comments coming last night after the country watched the RNC, where you heard all these Republicans telling America that the president cares about racial justice and equality.

Your thoughts?

ANGELA RYE, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, Brooke.