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Cuomo Prime Time
Trump Denies Systemic Racism Exists In U.S. During Visit To Kenosha, Calls Some Police "Bad Apples" Who "Choke"; Trump Encourages Removing Of Masks At Kenosha Event; NIH: No Evidence Backing Use Of Convalescent Plasma. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired September 01, 2020 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: It's still a big mystery.
JOHN BERMAN, CNN CO-HOST, NEW DAY: We certainly don't. But, I have to say, the way that the President and Vice President are addressing it, doesn't assuage the concerns. Sanjay, thank you very much.
The news continues. I hand it over to Chris for CUOMO PRIME TIME.
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST, CUOMO PRIME TIME: I'd tell you this, J.B., having had to go through convalescent care with my father, you don't ask for one of those acuity tests that the President brags about.
The clinician offers it, based on his or her thoughts about the patient. Remember that. He can brag about how well he did on the test. It's only offered to people by clinicians who have questions about the acuity of the patient.
Good to see you, brother.
BERMAN: Yes.
CUOMO: I am Chris Cuomo. Welcome to PRIME TIME.
Now, as we know, this President was urged not to go to Kenosha today. Why? We know why. The place is fragile. And obviously, anybody wanting it to be better would know what to do, right? We all do.
You go to a place with a problem like that. You acknowledge the problem. You give people confidence, how?
You say "Look, I hear you. I understand your pain. I understand that you're hurt. I will make things better. I have the power, and I have the will, and you have my promise.
We need to be better than some of what's happening in these streets. You can't have violence. You can't go backwards and think that that's going to get you progress. We've come together. We'll get to a better place together."
Common sense, right? You do it in your life. I do it in mine all the time. Trump did none of that. He actually went to a place that is broken by division, and increased the divide. And, I submit to you, he did it on purpose.
He blamed the people, fighting for justice, and said the problem is what they are doing, not what has been done to them, in communities all over our country, by police, by lenders, by employers, by courts.
Instead, Trump said this systemic inequality, of which you speak, it does not exist.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I don't believe that. I think the police do an incredible job, and I think you do have some bad apples.
They call it "Choking," and it happens.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you believe systemic racism is a problem in this country?
TRUMP: Well, you know, you just keep getting back to the opposite subject. We should talk about the kind of violence that we've seen in Portland, and here, and other places. It's tremendous violence. You always get to the other side: "Well, what do you think about this or that?"
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: Why Mr. Acuity Test Passing Genius? Why would you decide to talk about just the symptom of a problem, if you want to fix a problem?
We all get the obvious. Nobody is saying we should condone or be complicit in looting and rioting. That's crime. It's not protests. It's not progress. It's regression, and we all know it. It's beyond question.
But what is all of that? It's an ugly unacceptable outgrowth, but nonetheless a symptom. But Trump went to a tinderbox, and started throwing in matches to these people. "Oh, the real problem that you say, what happens to you, doesn't exist?" "Your outrage, that's the problem."
All this unrest on his watch, think about it, we saw no chained protests, like this, under Obama, or any other President in our lifetime. And he goes to the hotspot and makes it worse? Think about that.
The only violent act that he didn't condemn is the one by his own supporter, who police say, took to the streets last weekend, with a gun the law didn't allow him to carry, and is now charged with shooting and killing two protesters.
That violence, Trump defended yesterday. So, why did he come, if not to make things better? Looking at what he said, and how he said it, you have to think, he may have gone there to make them worse.
Now, why would he do that? Because don't you think, at this point, he believes that this violence scares you enough that you may think you need him to fix the violence that he has had happen on his watch?
He came into office promising to end it. Now, it's gotten worse, and he says, "I'm the only one who can fix it." But if he does, get it right, and the fear wins him Wisconsin, that could be his path to victory.
Remember, though, he laid out a vision of American carnage in his Inaugural address. Remember that, more than three years ago? "I alone can fix it." All of this badness is happening on his watch and, in part, because of his failure to address why it's happening.
His answer is, "I'll tell you why it's happening. Joe Biden, the Democratic Party." They're not in power. The President doesn't want to make things better. We have to accept it.
[21:05:00]
So, the challenge becomes how do we do it without him on the local level? Let's bring in Kenosha's Mayor, a Democrat, who's pushing back, John Antaramian.
Antaramian, did I get it right? Help me.
MAYOR JOHN ANTARAMIAN, (D) KENOSHA, WISCONSIN: You did fine.
CUOMO: Antaramian? Beautiful!
ANTARAMIAN: Antaramian.
CUOMO: It is good to see you. Thank you for taking this time.
ANTARAMIAN: Well thank you for having me.
CUOMO: Let's talk about the topline and then go into the depth of what you need to do to heal your community, OK?
ANTARAMIAN: OK.
CUOMO: How worried were you today when you heard the President blaming people for being angry at what they've seen in their streets, and what they've seen happen to too many people, time and again, in their communities?
ANTARAMIAN: When you listen to what he had to say, I look at things from a different perspective. I look at it from the - my community. And I'll give the example.
This weekend, I was out and about, visiting the Uptown, the Downtown, the areas that have been hardest-hit, talking with people. And there were people out there working to clean up the area. Their neighbors were there, helping them clean it up. People were together, trying to make sure that the buildings were painted. They - we had murals being done. People were talking to each other, and people were working together.
I think that's the image of Kenosha that I want people to have. And I know that the President has his own view of things. But I am more interested in what my community is going to do, to solve our problems and to become a better place.
CUOMO: Are you worried that what he said today may foment the problems there?
ANTARAMIAN: I always worry about things firing up, and he based out there. I don't believe though Kenosha is going to have that problem. I believe in my community. And I believe the people in our community are going to work together to solve part of our problems.
And we have problems. I wish I could say that everything was perfect. It's not. We need to deal with the issues of racism. We need to deal with other issues of how we're doing things. And so, I think that what you'll find is Kenosha is going to come back and come back stronger than ever.
CUOMO: Well I don't suggest that if you want the violence on the streets to end, you say there is no such thing as systemic racism, the way the President did today. But what is the answer?
What do you say to the people in the streets about what is driving them to desperation? The looters, the criminals, look, they've made a choice, to become what they oppose, which in injustice.
But what do you say to those who are desperate and not sure, especially after today, that there's any real chance of positive change?
ANTARAMIAN: Well, I think, when you look at this, you have to look at it from, number one, as you mentioned, the looters and the rioters, those individuals aren't Kenosha. And many - most of them didn't come - don't live in Kenosha, but came from the outside.
So, if we put those folks aside, what do we need to do in our community? And I - my father had an old saying that everybody talks but no one listens. And that is the trick, I believe, or the real way of us solving our problems.
We need to start listening to each other. We need to spend time talking to people, and then listening to what they're telling us. What are the problems they're facing? How are those problems impacting them?
I spent the day this - a good part of my day today, meeting with the Clergy, brought in a gentleman from the Department of Justice, in the Community Actions area, to talk with him, to have him help us start the process of listening. And I think, that, to me, is going to be the key to how we resolve our issues, in Kenosha, and how we move forward. CUOMO: How much of it is about training and culture within the police, like literally how they do the job. I don't subscribe to this "Black Heart" theory that "Oh, you just have racism within the police, and that's how it is. You got to get on the police." I don't subscribe to that.
I think it's as much about training and contact with the community as it is about anything that's in someone's head or their heart. How do you deal with that?
ANTARAMIAN: Well the first thing that you have to do is one of - one of the things that we are doing is we've been setting up committees, and we're going to use the Department of Justice and the Clergy to help us with the listening sessions.
And then, I have a group of committees that are being created. One of them will be dealing with police communication, and operations. And so, we will--
CUOMO: You got locals on the committee?
ANTARAMIAN: Oh, it'll all be locals.
CUOMO: Great!
ANTARAMIAN: So, and it'll be - and it'll be a large group of individuals in the sense of, when I say large group, a diverse group. So, it's not going to be just the normal folks who are involved in the Police and Fire Commission. It is--
CUOMO: Right. You got to let the communities feel like they have equity in how they're being policed, that these people--
ANTARAMIAN: And you're absolutely--
CUOMO: --work for them.
ANTARAMIAN: And you're absolutely correct. And that's what we're trying to do.
So part of these committees are going to be used to sit down. The Police Chief will be involved. Police officers will be involved. The community will be involved. And we are going to review the things that we're doing.
[21:10:00]
And if it comes out that we are not doing enough training, then we need to look at what kind of training needs to be done, and how do we then implement the new training for whatever needs to happen.
CUOMO: But don't you know you'd need more training?
I mean when you watch this video of what happened with Jacob, they couldn't think of a better way to keep this guy, in the ground, with multiple officers? They couldn't find another way other than following him, as he walked around a car?
Obviously, I learned a beautiful lesson today from a long-time law enforcement officer.
He said, "Cuomo, you jump too fast to the interaction. It's how you de-escalate. That's where the training is. There are so many ways to get people to be more cooperative with what's happening, before any force is needed. But then, once it is needed, these officers need to know how to handle situations without using a TASER or a gun."
Don't you agree?
ANTARAMIAN: I do agree. And I believe, as I said, though, I look at training, and I'm doing it very broad.
Because as we're having a discussion, I'm trying to get across the point that we're working as a group and as a committee, and they're going to look at everything. And, as they do, they'll pinpoint what areas that we think we need to modify, where we need types of training.
And then the other piece of this is that there may be certain things that need to be changed from state level, not just the local level, because a lot of the training comes from the state.
And so, we're going to be looking at all those aspects of what is going on, so that we improve on what we do, and how we do it.
We need to make sure people feel safe. We need to make sure that police and the community are working together, because only in that is the community going to be safe and prosper.
CUOMO: Are you going to allow, on the table, in terms of ideas, the idea of getting them out of the cruisers, getting cops back on the beat, talking to people, on their own terms?
ANTARAMIAN: Actually, we do a fair amount of that now in Kenosha. I have a couple of beat patrols that are in the Uptown and Downtown areas. And the goal is for the officers to meet and talk to people.
We also tie it into some of our educational programs in the sense of summer programs in the parks, so that officers and young people to interact, same within the school district.
CUOMO: Right.
ANTARAMIAN: So, we are doing those things already.
Actually, though, since you brought it up, if you don't mind me kind of slipping into something that I think is important to us, at least important to me, one of the key issues, I believe, in fixing our whole system is, as we set up these committees, we have education, we have the police department, we have employment, all those things that we're talking about, in general, but I still think the key one is dealing with the youth. And I think that is one of the most important things that we can do. We have too many young Black men, who we're losing. And we're losing them because they don't see worth, that they have self-worth. And that is our problem that we need to start addressing.
So, we need to start making sure that we have programs in place, to help these young people, to attain their goals, and to make it so that they're the next police officer, or they're the next firefighter, they're the next mayor.
Whatever it is that they wish to do, they have to feel the confidence they can do it, and we need to find ways of changing how we're doing things to make that occur. So, the youth--
CUOMO: More avenues to dignity, less dead-ends that leave them with bad choices.
ANTARAMIAN: Yes.
CUOMO: Well, Mayor John Antaramian, you got a tough task. You got a national spotlight on you. You had a big episode today, with the most powerful man in the world. All coming down on your community, it doesn't make anything any easier, unfortunately. But it doesn't make it any less important either.
We will stay watching. And we are here for you, as a platform, to make your case about what's working and not working in your community.
ANTARAMIAN: Well thank you very much. And I will tell you, Kenosha is a community that will succeed, and we will move forward, and we will be better for it.
CUOMO: Well I hope so. We need better in this country on a lot of levels. Take care, Sir. God bless, going forward.
ANTARAMIAN: Thank you very much for having me.
CUOMO: All right.
Now, look, I say it's an argument. But I really see it as more of a matter of fact, to be honest. If the President really does want to protect people, if he's about law and order, why doesn't he quit doing this?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: If you feel more comfortable, you'll say a couple of words, you might want to take the masks off. Otherwise you can leave them on. Either way you want. Look how fast you took that off.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: Why? What is it with him and masks? Who has told him anything but we really need them?
"Oh no, they said they weren't sure." That was months ago. People used to think the earth was flat too.
Why did he politicize this? Why does he give people this false sense that it's strong to be stupid?
There's news tonight from a panel of government health experts, refuting a Trump-backed COVID therapy plan. There is no shortcut.
[21:15:00]
Even plasma treatments, I was getting ready to do a story for you about how to donate plasma, because I have the antibodies, thank God, so far, with Sanjay. But now, maybe we got to rethink it. The treatments may not be safe or hopeful for certain Coronavirus patients.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta is here to go through what we know about that, and long-haul syndrome. It's got to get into our vocabulary, because it's part of our reality, next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT.
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CUOMO: Today, a Panel convened by the National Institutes of Health said there is no evidence support using convalescent plasma to treat Coronavirus patients.
[21:20:00]
Yes, this is the same treatment that the President touted as historic, when the FDA approved an Emergency Use Authorization for it, just last week. So, the NIH Panel says "No," the FDA says "Yes." So, where does that leave us?
Let's bring in Chief Doctor, Sanjay Gupta, especially seeing how I was about to go down the road of the double needle, in each arm, where they take out your blood, spin it, take the plasma out, and put the red blood cells back in the other arm, which would have been a major exercise in fainting for me.
So, what is your feeling, about where we are with plasma?
GUPTA: Well this is disappointing a little bit, Chris, because of just two things.
First of all, the way this all unfolded, on a Sunday, you remember, that's when the Emergency Use Authorization was granted.
But if you go back, in time, to the Thursday before, the NIH already showed their cards, beforehand. Dr. Collins, who's Head of the NIH, and Dr. Fauci, came out and said, "Look, the data isn't there." And then Sunday, it happens anyways. The Authorization is granted.
And then, on Monday, Dr. Hahn, Stephen Hahn, the FDA Commissioner, sort of - he says, "Look, I exaggerated the data a bit, but the Authorization still stands." So, I mean this obviously is what - this sort of thing happens that erodes trust, it's a real problem.
The issue is this, Chris. There's a lot of enthusiasm around convalescent plasma. It's been used for other types of infections.
Now that this Authorization is out there, if you're in the hospital, and you're sick, and there's this Authorization, what are you going to say? You're going to say, "I would like the plasma. Maybe it will work," understandably, if you're a patient.
But it makes it nearly impossible then now to collect the data that you need to show that it works. The only data they had, actually sort of compared low-dose plasma to high-dose plasma. What was missing from that group is no plasma at all. That's how you actually--
CUOMO: So, you don't see this as a Hydroxychloroquine--
GUPTA: --confirm the plasma's (ph) working so.
CUOMO: --situation where it could be dangerous? You see this as something else?
GUPTA: Well there is a possibility, it could be dangerous still. We just don't have a comparison group to placebo. So, when you're giving antibodies, I think there's two things to keep in mind.
One is that the antibodies themselves, you're just taking antibodies, some may be great gold-standard antibodies that are really neutralizing the virus. Many of them may not really do anything at all.
But some could actually cause a reaction in the recipient as well, and that could potentially be harmful. Again, that's why you do studies.
And an Authorization can be granted with limited studies. But you have to do the right studies. An Authorization is granted, in the case of an emergency, when there is no other alternative out there, and you're up against the ropes.
CUOMO: Right.
GUPTA: So, you'd like to authorize these things in a situation like this. But there just was no good data behind this, and it might be hard to collect that data now.
CUOMO: All right, so now, in terms of what we know works, and where we are with that, rapid testing. There's word from the government-- GUPTA: Yes.
CUOMO: --that in September, they're going to start sending it out, all around the country. What do you know about scale, in terms of, first of all, how real is this promise, and how much of an impact will this level of distribution have?
GUPTA: This is a brighter spot, I think, Chris. It's not a panacea by any means, but it's a brighter spot.
So, this Abbott test that we're talking about, BinaxNOW, it's called, they're able to make scale-wise, about 12 million tests a week, roughly 50 million tests a month. It's not enough to satisfy the demands overall, but this is significant.
There was just very early data, in terms of how accurate this test is. And what they found is that when it was tested in symptomatic people, within seven days of developing symptoms, it had 95-plus percent sensitivity, meaning it caught 95 out of a 100 cases, and then five times out of a 100, it would tell someone that they were negative, when in fact they were not.
That's pretty good. I mean it's not perfect, but it's pretty good. I think the big question is going to be, how well does it work in people who are asymptomatic?
This idea of assurance testing, I'm coming to visit you in New York. I'd like to know for certain I don't have the virus before I come into your house. Is it possible to get that kind of assurance in those tests? We don't know how well it works in that situation.
And again, the scale, the government says they're going to buy 150 million of these tests. They cost 5 bucks a piece. That's $750 million. They're going to have that by November 1st, they say.
They're going to go primarily to hot-zones in the United States and nursing homes and places like that. But I got through--
CUOMO: Couldn't they have done this five months ago?
GUPTA: Yes, well, see this is - this is - there's two issues here. One is - and again, you've raised this from the beginning.
The idea that the testing has been minimized, I think, it's not necessarily easy to create a test like this, but I think had there been more of a focus on it, they could have had a great antigen test earlier than they have it now.
Also, going back to scale, we keep talking about the DPA, the Defense Production Act, this would be one of those situations, where you say, "OK, we got a test that looks promising. Data looks good. There's not enough of them. Let's invoke some extra manufacturing capacity to really beef it up."
Chris, I got three kids staying home from school, right because they--
CUOMO: Me too.
[21:25:00]
GUPTA: --we don't have enough testing. I'm not confident. You too! This is one of the ways, lot of parents out there, call me about this, this is one of the ways you can help get kids back to school.
I don't want to sound Pollyannaish about this. But I would love to know if my kid has the virus, and if the kids--
CUOMO: Right.
GUPTA: --around them, and the faculty and the teachers around them have the virus too. We can't say that for sure, as things stand right now in most places.
CUOMO: If we had done the testing, months ago, the way it could have been done, we wouldn't have the problem with schools now. We'd still have the problem with space. We'd still have friction with the teachers, and understandably so.
GUPTA: Yes.
CUOMO: But we'd have a way of monitoring that would have gotten a lot more kids in a lot better situation than right now. And who knows how much time we're going to lose?
All right, so here is the tough topic. You want the good news or the bad news?
GUPTA: Chris, I've been thinking about you. Give me the good news first.
CUOMO: Here's the good news. I am not alone, and I am one of the lucky ones. This Long-Haul Syndrome thing is real, man, I'm telling you.
I had this doctor on last night who just does this kind of scientific research. I got doctors coming at me from all over the country. There are all these support groups all over the--
GUPTA: Right.
CUOMO: --country now, popping up on Facebook, and elsewhere, where people are from asymptomatic, where they didn't really feel anything, and then all the sudden, they start to get these weird symptoms, hypertension and weird like Lyme disease kind of feeling, joint pain, and other things.
And then they have the mild cases, where they lose their sense of smell and taste, like my wife, but then it comes back as bad. And now, she smells and tastes--
GUPTA: Right.
CUOMO: --a lot of things that are foul. First, I thought it was just me. But it turns out there are other things also that she finds to be sour in nature.
And then you have guys like me, where, yes, I'm better, absolutely, absolutely, but my baseline breathing, walk, talk, not 100 percent. My word recall, my thick tonguedness, elocution, not where it needs to be. Brain fog, constant.
After 7 o'clock at night, always interesting when you go on at 9:00, I'm not where I am, unless I'm popping some type of Nootropic or something like that that gives me a little boost of energy to focus my acuity. I haven't moved on to medicine yet.
And then lastly, for me, it's random joint pains and depression. And those have been getting worse and worse. And now, I haven't taken any medication.
So, I was just talking with my therapist today, and the psychiatrist about - psychiatrist, Sanjay know, is a doctor, who is also psychologist, but has - is a medical doctor, so can prescribe medicine.
And they say, "Look, we've been waiting for your blood levels to come back down to normal, before we start messing with your body chemistry."
But the emotional flatness is getting worse, like there's less and less of my day, where I feel the kind of normal enthusiasm that I do. And I may have to do something about it. And there's a lot of that out there.
But I'm worried that this is the real story, Sanjay that this is going to change the scale of what we have to deal with in the health system, that even once people get better, they're going to start having other stuff.
Stuff you're hearing about popcorn lung, and these embolisms, and the hypertension, and the hair loss, and all the stuff that they're telling you about too, I'm hearing about it all over the country, Sanjay, I think it's the next big challenge.
GUPTA: Yes. Look, Chris, look, you're my friend. And I feel badly, man. I'm sorry that you're going through all this.
I know a lot of people listen to you, and we tend to think of what's happening with this whole COVID story in binary terms. You either, get it and survive, or people die, right? And yet, there are people who are caught in between, right? They survived. But they're not - they're not recovered by any means.
And this long-hauler thing is real. I mean, we're learning together. And I think, just over the past couple of months, we've had the luxury, if you'll call it that, of starting to actually look at what recovery is really like.
We're just trying to keep up with this disease for so long. Now, we're saying, is this a prolonged inflammation that affects so many different organ systems in the body? Is it-- CUOMO: Or is it a blood vessel deal? Is it not your lungs but your blood vessels?
GUPTA: Right.
CUOMO: This new word that we'll start hearing, one of these many, many proteins, Bradykinin, that they're doing this testing on, to see if it's that the virus comes in and doesn't just hit the receptors that go to smell, and taste, and your lung, but goes to all kinds of receptors, in your body, and starts screwing around with all your systems.
GUPTA: Yes. I mean we think of this - this as a respiratory virus, and understandably, you want to put this in a box, immediately, make it make sense to something you already know. And I think, this virus, as we're learning, it really behaves like anything we've ever seen before.
[21:30:00]
There're some people, as you point out, seem to be relatively, what we call paucisymptomatic, minimal symptoms in the beginning, and yet, they have these persistent symptoms.
I thought, for certain, when I talked to these long-hauler doctors, the severity of symptom was going to correlate with the length of symptoms.
CUOMO: No--
GUPTA: That doesn't seem to be the case either.
CUOMO: I'm hearing it from all over the country.
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: That they had it pretty easy, then their hair started falling out. And they keep hearing from doctors, "Well, you know, this is the kind of sequeli, it's one of those sometimes," and we use Latin words, in the law and in medicine, it's because we don't have anything better to say.
It's like when somebody tells you it's idiopathic, "Well this thing, yes, it seems to be idiopathic."
GUPTA: That's right.
CUOMO: "Ooh that sounds sophisticated. What does that mean?" It means we don't know where it's coming from. Similarly--
GUPTA: That's right. That's right.
CUOMO: --sequeli, in Latin, means something that follows.
And you're going to hear that from doctors. "Oh, my hair is falling out." "Well, it's one of the sequeli of the virus. With time, it'll come back." That means they don't know why the hell your hair's falling out. And this is very scary for people.
GUPTA: That's right. That's right.
CUOMO: And it is coming back, but we don't know the time, and we don't know how to accelerate the time.
So, all I'm doing is, I'm covering this. I'll bring in Sanjay, so he can be on this listening tour, when we bring in other patients. As we get information, we'll give it to you. We are actively researching what people are figuring out.
I'm not going to sell you anything. I'm not going to tell you to try anything. I may tell you what I'm trying. I'm about to start some different non-toxic supplements, no prescribed medicine, nothing too crazy, that at least I'll tell you about.
But I'm going to try some things to build up my blood vessels on the working theory that if this attacks your blood vessels, and that's why it's making us weak, maybe if I build up some of the things that builds up this stuff you guys call, not nitrous oxide, but nitric oxide, the gas in the body that helps--
GUPTA: Nitric oxide.
CUOMO: --blood vessel development maybe that will be helpful.
GUPTA: Dilators, yes.
CUOMO: May have to take VIAGRA--
GUPTA: Well--
CUOMO: --one of the doctors told me. Low dose. I swear to God. He told me it's for that.
GUPTA: Right.
CUOMO: Low dose. Just telling you!
GUPTA: That dilates the blood vessels as well, Chris, as you may know. It's actually--
CUOMO: It's - I know you'd - I knew I - I was thinking about whether or not to give you that ammo on me. But I give it to you. You can have it, use it all you like. But if it helps me get better--
GUPTA: Talk about friends, Chris.
CUOMO: --anyway, I'll take it, Sanjay.
GUPTA: Yes.
CUOMO: I'll take anything.
GUPTA: Hey, man, I got to say, it's just - it's good to see you smile. I've been watching you a lot. And I - you talk about that sort of blunted affect, I - if I can tell - I mean I've noticed that a little bit. And I've been worried about you a bit. So, we'll keep at it, but it's good to see you - it's good to see you smile, buddy.
CUOMO: Well here's the problem. You got a little bit of a laugh/cry deal working right now, right? We're dealing with a lot of hard stuff, and I'm dealing with it at work, and at home, because I'm sick, and I'm having a hard time not being who I need be.
This show is taking a lot out of me. For me to be who I can be, at my best, for the show, it's going to come out of somewhere. So, I'm making the - making do the best I can.
I know I'm one of the lucky ones. There but for the grace I could be in one of the situations that these other people that I'm meeting and learning and bonding with, and I owe it to them to try and get us the best information I can.
Who better than you? I love you, Sanjay Gupta. Thank you for helping me tonight.
GUPTA: I love you too.
CUOMO: All right.
GUPTA: You got it buddy.
CUOMO: And I love the hair by the way.
GUPTA: We'll talk.
CUOMO: Don't let anybody make you cut it. Looks good! I may need some, if mine falls out.
All right, so we'll Ping-Pong back and forth between COVID and Kenosha, why, because you know my theory.
My theory is that this is what this election is about, next 60 - what 62 days? 63? 62? Whatever it is, tell me in the Control Room, which is it? 63? 62? Silence! Whichever it is, these two issues are going to be what really forms, I think, a lot of your choices.
So, back to Kenosha, we have another Wisconsin official, who urged the President not to come today. Very interesting!
While we're focused so much on the Black community, in Kenosha, Wisconsin, as a State, is overwhelmingly White, like 87 percent. What does that mean in this dynamic of systemic inequality in that State and how it's being received?
Did you hear what happened with their legislature, when the Governor convened an emergency session of the legislature to look at changes that will help address what just happened in Kenosha? Did you hear what happened? I'll tell you next.
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CUOMO: All right, so here's what we know. The President's trip to Kenosha wasn't about healing, OK?
It was about heating up the situation. To prove to his base that he is there to crush the people who are there committing the violence. Law and order! It's all about a campaign built on fear. Fear that you, as the White voter, primarily, will think it would be worse under Joe Biden than under Trump.
This is not about Trump saying, "I'm good." Think about that. Trump's not telling you, "See, I fixed it. Told you I alone could fix it. Told you the carnage would stop."
He's saying, "Yes, the carnage got worse under my watch, but it will be even worse if it's Biden." You buy that?
But that message is the key to what is now a desperate race to the finish, especially in Wisconsin, a State that's only elected one Black man to statewide office, just in terms of a perspective on how much purchase the White fear argument could have there. That one man is Lieutenant Governor Mandela Barnes.
Governor, good to see you.
LT. GOVERNOR MANDELA BARNES, (D) WISCONSIN: Hey, yes, it's really good to see you. Thank you for having me.
CUOMO: Now, I know you say "No, it's Lieutenant Governor." But I was raised by a Lieutenant Governor, before he was Governor, and he said, "Lieutenant Governor? Always say Governor."
So, Governor, it is good to see you. Let's get right into what matters to you.
BARNES: Yes. Good to see you.
[21:40:00]
CUOMO: Wisconsin is what, 87 percent White. The Metropolis area that we're dealing with is like 8 percent Black.
What does that mean in terms of the prospect of systemic equality and the resonance of Trump's message about the problem is the people who are complaining, not their complaints.
BARNES: I can rewind this, because the State of Wisconsin has a rich proud progressive tradition.
Wisconsin, let me remind you all, was the first State to declare the Fugitive Slave Act unconstitutional. And, somewhere along the years, we sort of lost our way. We find ourselves deep in some very extreme racial disparities.
But Donald Trump is going to try to his best to play to his base. His trip didn't have anything to do with the Blake family. His trip didn't have anything to do with the two people, who were murdered in cold blood on the streets.
It was to stoke more division and more fear amongst his base, because this is not a State that he's performing particularly well in, at the moment, although he won four years ago.
This trip - this trip was solely based out of desperation. And it's only going to make things worse as far as tensions go.
A real leader would come to the State, will come to Kenosha, in hopes to heal the community. But he didn't even pretend if that was what he wanted to do in the first place.
CUOMO: So, what do you think, politically? Does it work better for him, in terms of winning Wisconsin, to ignore the pandemic, and ignore the resulting economic pain of it, and focus on this fear?
"Hey, White people, these guys are going to come to your community next, if Biden's here. They're coming for you," do you think that will work?
BARNES: He's already gone the better part of the year with - by ignoring the pandemic. This is something he never took seriously. He never took issues of racial justice seriously. And that's why we are where we are.
So, this is the same exact campaign strategy that he had four years ago. He just has a different issue to look at, and point to, and say, "This is how I intend to govern," as if he isn't governing at this moment.
He's talking about this theoretical "Joe Biden America," while we are currently living in Trump's America, while all of this is the case right now.
CUOMO: Right.
BARNES: So, it is a - it is a--
CUOMO: But perception can be reality, Gov.
BARNES: --bizarre strategy.
CUOMO: Perception could be reality. BARNES: It's a bizarre strategy.
CUOMO: Perception could be reality.
BARNES: Yes.
CUOMO: And in a Marquette University Law School poll, net approval rating for mass protests, following George Floyd's death, Wisconsin likely voters, June, plus-27 percent, August, minus-1 percent.
That is a scary statistic, if you're looking at it through the lens of, "Does selling fear work?" Do you think this could win in Wisconsin for him?
BARNES: Well fear is the only MO that he has. I hate to use that metaphor. But fear is the only thing that he has in his pocket.
And, of course, you can look at those numbers. But poll numbers can't be what drives this conversation. We have to deal with the reality of what people are actually dealing with, and you can talk about likely voters all you want to.
But the fact is Donald Trump won Wisconsin with 6,000 fewer votes than Mitt Romney. There are so many more people, if we want to make the political argument, there are so many more people who are waiting to be inspired by some sort of - by some candidate or some sort of Movement.
And I'm not going to base all my decisions, based on, or on polling data. I'm going to do what's right, as we all should be doing, and that's doing the work, to heal the - to heal Kenosha. I think that voters will look quite favorably upon some of the efforts that are taking place now.
I had a chance to participate in a rally and a march with, again, Jacob Blake's family. People from all across the area, all across the community, all spectrum, showed up, and they showed up with a message to demand justice.
The following day, a group of creatives - young people stepped up to assist the small business community that hasn't just been dealing with the tough time because of what happened over the previous weekend, but before that.
Let me remind the viewers too, that Kenosha is a blue-collar town. The middle-class there was built by the Chrysler plant. When Chrysler left, it also left a dent. However, Kenosha has been on the up and up. It's one of the fastest growing cities in the State.
And we can go back to the opportunity that does or does not exist, but I think that, in the wake of the shooting of Jacob Blake, so many folks are realizing that not everyone has access to that opportunity.
And the great people of Kenosha, the kind-hearted people that you come to know in the State of Wisconsin, they're ready for a better future, for all of us. So, I think that you could look at those numbers right now, but I see that as a point in time number.
CUOMO: You think Biden should come?
BARNES: So, I do think there's definitely room for Biden to come. As he's - as he's talked about his need to run towards the light, to inspire people, to bring people together, that's what his campaign has been about.
So Joe Biden, if you're listening, it would be - it would be a welcome visit.
[21:45:00]
And I said that I didn't want Donald Trump to come to Wisconsin, because he failed to even - he failed to decry what happened with the shooting, with the young man, who travelled across state line, to murder two people in our State, and injure - severely injure another with a long rifle.
He shouldn't have had the weapon in the first place. He was out past curfew, everything. And Donald Trump refuses to condemn that act. And that shows that this is a President who's not ready to be President, although he's been President for 3.5 years.
Joe Biden has delivered a clear message. And his message is about hope, opportunity and rebuilding Kenosha, rebuilding the State of Wisconsin, and doing the same thing across the country, because this isn't an isolated incident.
This isn't something that it's just unique to Kenosha, Wisconsin. This is an ongoing problem that we've had to deal with. And Joe Biden has - he's addressed racial injustice in America.
And I think that the more we push, the more we fight, and the more we work, the more likely we are to realize that future or racial justice is at the forefront of conversation.
CUOMO: Well, right now, you're at a starting point, where the kid who was the Trump supporter, who did the shooting and the killing, allegedly, is the only violent act that he defended, this President, in terms of being something that, on some level, was acceptable. We still have to know why the police in Kenosha were being as buddy-buddy with those White militants, as they were there.
BARNES: That is the real question.
CUOMO: Yes,
BARNES: That's the real question.
CUOMO: Lieutenant Governor Mandela Barnes, hopefully, we get the answer. We'll keep asking, and hopefully we get answers. But thank you for joining us tonight, and good luck for better going forward.
BARNES: Thank you.
CUOMO: All right. We'll be right back.
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CUOMO: Our next guest sums up the President's disinformation campaign perfectly.
"Trump has required the creation of a new species of presidential fact check in which you have to drag in some unsuspecting entity to correct him - the Boy Scouts, the Babe Ruth Museum, Portland Fire & Rescue, the government of Sweden."
That tweet is from CNN's Fact-Check King, Daniel Dale, and he joins us now.
It's funny, but it's funny-sad, because it is so embarrassing that the President of the United States has to be brought in to check on such a grotesque level. But let's try to focus on some of the ones that matter, and thank you for being on as also, Daniel.
Trump said Portland has been burning for many years. Here's a little taste of his silliness.
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TRUMP: Or a city like Portland, where the entire city is ablaze all the time, and a Mayor says, "We don't want any help from the federal government."
Portland has been burning for many years, for decades, it's been burning. And I think the people of Portland, and they're tired of it. They're tired of having, of living with this curse.
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CUOMO: Now, "Curse," "On fire for years," this is absurd. Is there anything that you can find in that, other than some twisted metaphor that has any credulity?
DANIEL DALE, CNN REPORTER: So, the grain of truth here is that there have been ongoing nightly protests in Portland, where there have regularly been fires set. But Trump turned those nightly fires into the entire City being ablaze all the time, and then the entire city being ablaze for decades.
That's not - not only not true, but so untrue that a Spokesman for the Portland Fire Department, Portland Fire & Rescue, texted me, after the briefing, after I reached out for comment, and said, in all capital letters, "We are not ablaze in Portland."
And he explained that while there have been nightly fires, they've mostly been small, contained to trash bins, or dumpsters. And he said none of them have required more than one fire engine to put out.
So not dismissing the importance of fires being set, of course, that's troubling, Chris, but the entire city being ablaze is pure nonsense.
CUOMO: The irony is the truth would be a better story for this President. Just the pockets of violence are enough for him to spur the kind of fear that he wants to, especially when he's going to go there, and foment it.
One other one that I want to get to. He went on to talk about a plane loaded with thugs, headed to the Republican Convention. He actually repeated this claim today, but he went from going to the Convention to the plane was leaving the Convention.
I want to play it.
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TRUMP: And in the plane, it was almost completely loaded with - with thugs, wearing these dark uniforms, black uniforms with gear and this and that. This person was coming to the Republican National Convention. And there were like seven people on the plane like this person. And then, a lot of people were on the plane to do big damage.
The entire plane filled up with the looters, the anarchists, the rioters, people that obviously were looking for trouble. This was a firsthand account of a plane going from Washington to wherever.
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CUOMO: Firsthand account! President of the United States has access to the most complete information on just about every topic, but he's going with the firsthand account. Probably saw it on Twitter!
This is fundamental to his fear campaign. "They're coming to get you, Daniel, they're coming." Is there any truth to what you've been able to track down about what he was concerned about on these planes?
DALE: Basically, Chris, no one knows anything.
I don't like going out on any limb. So, I'll start by saying, I can't definitively fact-check this at this point. It is theoretically possible that, at some point, the President or someone else will come present actual evidence of a plane filled with thugs.
But, number one, Chris, this President has told so many lies, and promoted so many nonsense conspiracy theories that I think we're in a place, where we have to presume this is false, until proven otherwise, rather than the reverse.
Number two, no one around him that we've talked to, with CNN and other outlets, has real corroborating information.
CUOMO: Right.
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DALE: Number three, his story if you notice there, is already changing. It went from a plane to Washington, to today, a plane from Washington, to "Wherever." He didn't even specify the city.
And number four, as Reporter Ben Collins, of NBC noted, this story is kind of suspiciously similar to a false but viral Facebook rumor that was going around a few months ago. So, whether that's where he got it, I don't know, but similarities for sure.
CUOMO: Daniel Dale, thank you very much. Here are two things that we know.
It is really uncommon around any big-shot politician, where his people don't know what he's talking about, and can't back it up. I have almost--
DALE: Yes.
CUOMO: --never heard of it before.
And second, it's going to be a real question for the voters, if you can't believe, if you assume that he's always lying, and that's OK, because politicians do it, well what point is it too much? That's the question for the voters.
Not for you, Daniel Dale, you bring us the facts, pal.
DALE: Thank you.
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CUOMO: Let's bring in the man at the head of "CNN TONIGHT," D. Lemon right now. Boy, what a--
DON LEMON, CNN HOST, CNN TONIGHT WITH DON LEMON: I barely made it. I barely made it. CUOMO: Oh, I would have bought you time.
LEMON: You caught me off-guard. I was watching your last segment.
CUOMO: I would have bought you time.
LEMON: Yes?
CUOMO: I would have bought you time. Let me know.
LEMON: What you're going to do it now? Sorry, I just I mean I just got to--
CUOMO: It's all right. I got plenty to talk about.
LEMON: Yes? What's up?
CUOMO: What an epic battle of light versus dark this election has shaped up to be.
LEMON: Boy! I mean, who you're telling!
CUOMO: I mean Trump isn't even pretending to be light--
