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Don Lemon Tonight
President Trump Defies A Request; Joe Biden Calls Out Trump's Lie; Anarchists Aboard A Plane To Sow Chaos?; Blake Family Not In Game Of Politics; NIH Doesn't Agree With Convalescent Plasma; Bad Police Compared To Golfers Who "Choke." Aired 10-11p ET
Aired September 01, 2020 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: Let's bring in the man at the head of "CNN TONIGHT," D. Lemon right now. Boy, what a--
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: I barely made it. I barely made it.
CUOMO: Oh, I would have bought you time.
LEMON: You caught me off-guard. I was watching your last segment.
CUOMO: I would have bought you time.
LEMON: Yes?
CUOMO: I would have bought you time. Let me know.
LEMON: What you're going to do it now? Sorry, I just I mean I just got to--
CUOMO: It's all right. I got plenty to talk about.
LEMON: Yes? What's up?
CUOMO: What an epic battle of light versus dark this election has shaped up to be.
LEMON: Boy! I mean, who you're telling!
CUOMO: I mean Trump isn't even pretending to be light--
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: By the way, I'm logging on to the computer, by the way. By anyways, there you go.
CUOMO: Go ahead, log on.
LEMON: Yes. What did you say, what?
CUOMO: Trump isn't even pretending to be about light.
LEMON: No. CUOMO: To be about better and union and unity and aspiration. I mean, he is straight up -- if you elect the other guy, the blacks and their crazy white friends are coming for you, wherever you are, because that's what the Democrats will allow and Biden is with him.
LEMON: Don't say that out loud. Because, I mean, you're going to, you're giving the game plan away. Fear sells.
CUOMO: And he is giving --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: You said --
CUOMO: What the Kenoshans said exactly that. We have never seen a president go to a place that is in the midst of this type of conflagration, literally. And start throwing gasoline on it.
LEMON: Well, we've never seen anything like this. These are unusual times when it comes to, even covering it. I mean, I think that, not that I think, I know that the media needs to adjust themselves.
I don't know if you have -- if you watched last night where I said, you know, yesterday Joe Biden did a really big thing. He came up and gave the truth and talked about everything. This president gives a press conference and doesn't tell the truth about anything, but yet what does the media leave with? The president lying.
So, I said I'm not going to leave with the president lying. I'm going to leave with Joe Biden telling the truth. And then we'll get to the other stories. But fear sells. And people know that. People --
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: Key to being a demagogue.
LEMON: Yes. These men -- fear sells. And so, nothing -- there's nothing more motivating than fear. Just think about it. My gosh. I'm afraid I won't be able to feed my family. I'm afraid I won't be able to do this. I'm afraid that I'm going to have some disease. I'm afraid of dying. I'm afraid.
Fear is a good motivating factor. This president knows it. But this is the dangerous thing in exploiting people's fear and anxiety. What he's doing is possibly, he's possibly going to cause a civil war in this country. And I don't necessarily mean a violent one. That certainly can happen.
But actually, I think we're in the middle of one now where we can't agree on anything where people who don't have agency in society are being blamed for the division. And that's not true. Poor black people, white folks, and black people, it's not the problem. The problem is not with them. The problem is the people who are using them, who are exploiting them.
And so, for people to be pitted against each other -- we -- we've got to be smarter than that. Think about it, Chris, all you got to do is do a Google search on rioting, America. And look back from the beginning of time. We have dealt with riots in this country.
CUOMO: Yes.
LEMON: We have dealt with unrest. Here's the difference. We're in a time where we have, as you say, a demagogue, using it to hold on power, trying to extract power from the people and from the system so that he can hold onto. He doesn't realize the danger in what he's doing. And that, quite frankly, what he's doing is un-American.
CUOMO: I challenge the president to give three ideas tomorrow about how to help with systemic inequality in this country.
LEMON: It doesn't exist to him. So, but, go on.
CUOMO: Well, he can call it whatever he wants. But three ideas, three feelings. He doesn't have an idea. Three feelings about why he can make it better in this country. And he can't say just one rule. You can't say I've given them the lowest unemployment rate ever. Not true anymore.
LEMON: No.
CUOMO: Pandemic counts.
LEMON: No.
CUOMO: OK?
LEMON: That was -- that was --
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: Their unemployment rate is up like 14, 15 percent.
LEMON: The guy who he's jealous of did that. That was Barack Obama. But go on.
CUOMO: So, I'd like to hear him say some of those things. Because you know, they say you're so unfair. You don't say any of the positive things he says about. First of all, he doesn't even acknowledge it exists is a problem. But I'll give it to you.
He went to Kenosha today. Tell me what he said that was good about what was going on? He, you know, he literally cut off the reverence that was sitting there. The clergy were asked, hey, what do you think about systemic inequality? He cut them off and said it doesn't exist. They're just some bad apples. Otherwise the police are great.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: It's not about the police. It's about the system of policing.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: It's different.
LEMON: Well, I got to --
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: You still think Joe Biden should go?
LEMON: Do I?
CUOMO: Yes. Who else am I talking to?
LEMON: I'm torn. Here's why I'm torn because there is a resource issue. There's also the bigger person issue. I thought Joe Biden for -- and this is -- here's what gets me. And I'm going to get to my part of the show. So, please.
CUOMO: The whole thing is your show.
[22:04:58]
LEMON: I know that. But here's what I think. With the conversation we had the other night about Joe Biden, and whatever, I hate how people are twisting it. And it's like that, all of a sudden, we realize whatever and the only reason I'm saying that is because of the polling.
No, we were doing political analysis after a convention. So, it was about the politics of what's going on. Right? And so, to try to twist it into something else is just dumb and intentional and obviously you know that there's an agenda behind it.
So, I'm torn about that. Because when people do go there like the president and someone a former -- a former vice president it takes resources away from the community. You can take attention off the things that need to -- that need to be handled. And in the president's -- in his instance it could have caused more violence.
CUOMO: Right.
LEMON: And so, but I think if he -- I think if he wants to go there, he should. I don't know if this is the week. I think maybe in a little time. Enough time will have passed, he can get there and he can talk to the family. Because the family certainly wants to talk to Joe Biden because they know that he is a man that has empathy, whether they are supporting him for president or not. That's a whole different story. But they know that he has empathy, he's had loss. He can feel their pain to a certain extent.
CUOMO: I mean, I'm worried that he has to go. Because people were left there today thinking holy cow, this guy really doesn't care.
LEMON: He doesn't.
CUOMO: I don't know what reaction that's going to happen on the streets. Hopefully, none. Hopefully it just redoubles the commitment to finding ways to progress on the local level. LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: But I think they almost need a Biden and a Harris to come and say look, we hear you. We get this. Stop the things that hurt our chance for progress.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: Stop being what you oppose which is injustice.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: I said he needed to get it --
CUOMO: But we're here. We've got you. We'll do this together.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: I think they need to hear it there.
LEMON: Well, I said that last week. But I think last week was a different time. I think Joe Biden did himself a whole lot of good on Monday when he went gave that speech.
Again, it would be helpful, I think, for -- I think it would be helpful for him -- I'm not sure if it would be helpful for him politically. Let's put it that way. But I think it would be helpful to the country, for the country to see someone who is trying to bring people together, unity instead of division.
CUOMO: Yes. I mean, I think they need it.
LEMON: So, maybe you're right in that. They need it.
CUOMO: I mean, I think electorally, I think you can argue that Biden's best angle right now is to go through the south and focus on that in terms of getting his electorate.
LEMON: That's -- and that's a whole different thing.
CUOMO: Right.
LEMON: Politically.
CUOMO: So, if he loses Wisconsin in this issue, 87 percent of that state is white. You know, then white people being afraid of black people marauding through the state.
LEMON: I get it. I get it. But I don't think that -- I don't think that -- I think white people are smart enough to know it's not just all white people out there and they're not -- they're not going to be suckers for what this president is doing. The truth is the truth. And I'm going to talk about that. Kenosha all of it, you just said. Not all of it is on fire. And it's just a whole bunch of mess and malarkey, as the former vice president says.
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: Well, also let's hear what you got on it.
LEMON: I got to go. And I got to tell you, hundo p, Chris. I love you, brother.
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: All day Hundo P, brother. I love you, Don Lemon.
LEMON: All right. I'll talk to you soon, Christopher Cuomo.
This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.
I know I'm a little bit late. Sometimes we get carried away. So I apologize to everyone. You the viewer, the producers, whatever, I'm sorry.
But we're going to get all of it and we're going to tell you the truth. OK? Remember, as I said last night I've been saying. You'll get the truth here. No spinning.
So, I'm Don Lemon. Thank you so much.
Joe Biden hitting back with some truth telling in the face of the president's lies claiming that he is somehow controlled by people in the dark shadows. What's the dark shadows? Come on, seriously. This sounds like some QAnon or conspiracy theory stuff. Again, fear. I'm going to make you scared. My -- there's a boogeyman. Maybe there's someone behind me. My gosh. Is there dark people in the dark shadows in this dark room that I'm in?
He is playing on your fears. The former vice president tonight in an interview with a local news station in the battleground state, he just continues to lie, he says. He flat out lies about everything, dark forces behind me? Do I look like the guy that's socialist? The left- wing guy who brings dark forces?
Well, here is the truth. We need to oppose violence in our streets. OK? We need to oppose violence in our streets. The truth is, we need to support peaceful protests. Not violent protests. The truth is we need a leader who can unite us as I just said, we need someone who can unite us not try to divide us.
Instead, we have a president who goes to Kenosha today, doesn't even publicly mention Jacob Blake's name. This is what he says when a reporter asks if he has any message for Blake's family.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, I feel terribly for anybody that goes through that. That's why I was so honored to meet the pastors. I feel terribly for anybody that goes through that. As you know it's under investigation. It's a big thing happening right now. I guess it's under local investigation.
[22:10:03]
I know, Bill, you're also participating. But it's under your local investigation group unit. And I hope they come up with the right answer. It's a complicated subject to be honest with you.
But I feel terribly for anybody that has to go through and I didn't get to speak to the mother. I hear she's a fine woman. I've heard that from the pastor, a really fine woman. But you can see when I spoke to the pastors, I see exactly what it is and they understand where I am. And if we can help, we're going to help.
But it is a question it's under investigation. A lot of things happened with that and other things, frankly, that we're looking at very, very closely. OK?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: The family didn't want to be used as a political pawn. Many people have even tried to twist the mother's words. What she said on this very program.
The mother said she was sorry for missing the president's phone call because had she spoken to him, he may not have tweeted out some in -- some incendiary information about her son. That's what she said.
Nuance. Context. But the reason the president didn't speak with Jacob Blake's mother is because he didn't want their lawyers involved. But the president went on to say for her pastors when a reporter asked them whether they think police violence is systemic, no surprise. The president does not.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A question for the pastors. The problem of police violence has been described as just a problem of a few bad apples repeatedly.
TRUMP: You are going to speak up, please.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, the problem of police violence has been described by you, including present, as just bad apples, a few bad apples, or people who choke occasionally. Some African-American community leaders and a lot of others actually have said it's systemic. Where do you stand on that?
TRUMP: I don't believe that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where do you --
TRUMP: No. I don't believe that. I think the police do an incredible job. And I think you do have some bad apples. I think you agree, every once in a while, you see something and you do have the other situation too, where they are under this tremendous pressure and they don't handle it well. They call it choking. And it happens. No, but I don't believe that at all. I think there are -- I met so many police. I have the endorsement of like, so many maybe everybody. (END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: The president not really interested. Not really interested at all in talking about Jacob Blake or about police violence. Not really interested in trying to bring Americans together. Don't you want to be -- shouldn't we be together when discussing these issues as American people? All of us in this together.
Shouldn't people be trying to be united instead of divided? So, instead of trying to bring us together this president wanted to take a victory lap. Tweeting that if he didn't insist on having the National Guard go in there would be no Kenosha right now and then doubling down again today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: This ended within an hour. As soon as we announced we were coming and then they saw we were here. This ended immediately. And it should be that way all over.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: OK, did you buy that? I have a bridge to sell you, if you bought that. A lot of people probably did. Strong guy, I ended it. OK. So here -- this is the fact. These are the facts, OK? The fact is, all the National Guard troops in Kenosha -- are you listening to me? -- are under state, not federal control.
Wisconsin Governor Tony Evers deployed his state's National Guard troops and got troops from several other states. The governor did. None of whom, not one of them has been federalized. And the president urged Governor Evers to call the National Guard -- listening? The day after Evers already had.
Truth hurts, right? But this president just doesn't care about the truth at all, doesn't care about the facts. And a lot of people listen to him and they believe him because he stands there and he lies straight to your face. And you believe it, which is interesting because you should believe the president of the United States, traditionally.
[22:15:05]
Because normally they don't lie to you in the straight face like that as many times as this president, unprecedented and unprecedented. Just listen to the president of the United States with an evidence free story about a plane load of looters and anarchists headed from Washington to wherever. Too bad he can't identify the person who told him the story.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I can tell you that I can probably refer you to the person. And they could do it. I'd like to ask that person if it's OK. But a person was on a plane said that there were about six people like that person more or less. And what happened is the entire plane filled up with the looters, the anarchists, the rioters, people that obviously were looking for trouble.
And the person felt very uncomfortable in the plane. This would be a person you know. So, I will see whether or not I can get that person. I'll let them know and I'll see whether or not I can get that person to speak to you.
But this was a firsthand account of a plane going from Washington to wherever. And I'll see if I can get that information for you. Maybe they'll speak to you, maybe they won't.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: I'm going -- I'm going to see if I can get the person for you, firsthand account. Maybe they'll speak to you, maybe they won't. All right. I'll remain open. Let's see if he ever produces that person. Come forward. I would love to speak to you on this very program. I would.
So, the president offering absolutely no evidence for that story about a plane full of looters and anarchists headed wherever, a story from an anonymous source. Kind of makes you wonder why the TSA let all those looters and anarchists board a plane.
You would think the President of the United States would offer some evidence, some facts to back up a story like that. Nope. Not the first time, though, that he has told that story. I want you to listen to him. This was last night telling a Fox News anchor about a plane full of thugs.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We had somebody get on a plane from a certain city this weekend. And in the plane, it was almost completely loaded with thugs. Wearing these dark uniforms. Black uniforms with gear and this and that. They're on a plane.
LAURA INGRAHAM, HOST, FOX NEWS: Where's this?
TRUMP: I'll tell you sometime. But it's under investigation right now. But they came from a certain city. And this person was coming to the Republican National Convention. And there were like seven people on the plane like this person. And then a lot of people were on the plane to do big damage.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: I'll tell you sometime but now this story is going to the Republican convention. By the way, I apologize I said a Fox News anchor. I should say a Fox news host. OK.
So, in that story, wow, a loaded, a plane loaded with thugs in dark uniforms with gear, and this and that. My gosh, it sounds so scary. Right? Well that's exactly the point, selling fear and division. There's a boogeyman coming to your city in a world full of fear and boogeymen and scariness. He can't even keep the story straight. He told Laura Ingraham the
plane was headed to the Republican convention. This morning he said it was headed from Washington to wherever.
The Trump campaign's comms director was unable to shed any light on the president's story tonight. But it does bare some resemblance to a month-old discredited Facebook post about a dozen men dressed in black getting off a plane in Boise.
We have a president who resorts to lies to distract us to divide us about any city, any town in America. Wherever. The president didn't meet with Jacob Blake's family today at all. He didn't even say the name of the man who was in the hospital, in a hospital bed tonight paralyzed after being shot in the back seven times by police.
Jacob Blake's father, the family's lead attorney, Benjamin Crump both here after the break.
[22:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: So, the president weighing in on the Jacob Blake shooting in Kenosha today saying he feels terribly for anybody who goes through that. But he didn't meet with Jacob Blake's family.
Let's discuss now with his father, Jacob Blake Sr. and Ben Crump, who -- he is the attorney, I should note, for the Blake family. Gentlemen, it's so good to see you and both of you on. I really appreciate it.
Mr. Blake, first of all, how's your son doing? Give me his latest condition, if you will.
JACOB BLAKE SR., JACOB BLAKE'S FATHER: Right now, he's still heavily sedated. But it seems like the upper body from the waist up is really trying to fight hard to stabilize. So, basically, he is stabilizing from the waist up. But the fact that two of the bullets actually like blew out two of his back -- two, the one and the four in the back.
LEMON: So.
BLAKE: So right now, he's hanging on, Don.
LEMON: So, the president finally talked about your son. He says he feels terribly. But he says it's a complicated situation that he's not condemning the shooting, though. What do you say to that, Mr. Blake?
[22:25:08]
BLAKE: Well, I say that none of my children are chess pieces. And my son is definitely not a pawn. And we're not going to be political -- it's not a political way that that I'm going to talk about. We're not talking politics. My son is actually a human being. And my son is actually laying in the hospital. And my son is actually paralyzed from the waist down. So, if you don't know his name, it's Jacob Blake. LEMON: OK, listen, I know that you tell it like it is. I have watched
interviews with you. You can answer this if you want to. And if you don't, I certainly understand. Do you think the president was coming there to try to use you or your family in any way as some a sort of political pawn or as you said, a chess piece?
BLAKE: If I answer that question then it takes away from what I said the first time.
LEMON: OK. I got you. I told you, you don't have to answer it. I appreciate you're doing, what you do. You're saying what you said. So, what do you say to -- because I don't want to ask you a political question because you don't want to go there. Then what do you say to the man who visited today but didn't mention your son. Didn't want to be part of a phone call?
BLAKE: My son's -- my son's name is Jacob Blake. If you didn't mention it, then you don't care about him.
LEMON: Ben, let me bring --
BLAKE: And I don't care who you are.
LEMON: Do you say anything to -- I was talking to Chris at the top of the show. I don't know if you saw the beginning of the show and he asked me, he said, do you think Joe Biden should go there, Don?
And I said, you know, I'm torn. It's about resources, or whatever. But I also said and even beyond politics it would be helpful for the nation, the country to see someone who is trying to unite the country rather than divide. Do you want to talk about that at all?
BLAKE: We need somebody talking about police reform. Some of these police need to be reformed. It needs to be reformed. If we're not talking about laws to reform immediately reforming some of these police, then, really, I don't want to speak to you at all. But if you're talking about some reform, hey, you can sit down with me. We can have coffee and tea.
LEMON: What do you want to talk about?
BLAKE: We want to talk about reform. And what we're going to do to reform the state of police in the United States and how we're going to connect to that white lane of justice because we're in the black lane of justice. And if we can't get the same thing, they get over there. We need to get over there. We cannot have two justice systems and one country.
LEMON: Ben, I want to bring you in because I am about to speak to Wisconsin Attorney General Josh Kaul. State investigators have collected 100 pieces of evidence, 28 videos. What do you think we're going to learn from all this, Mr. Crump?
BENJAMIN CRUMP, ATTORNEY FOR BLAKE FAMILY: I think we're going to learn what we know, Don, that there is nothing that shows Jacob Blake, Jr. posing a threat to those police officers as he is walking away from them trying to get his three little boys (Technical difficulty).
And as he's doing so, this officer unjustifiably, Don, pulls his t- shirt and shoots him seven times in the back. And it was not a choke as President Trump said. It was not a split-second life or death decision.
I mean, you watch the video how many seconds passed as he walks around the car. And when was it a life or death situation for the police to justify him shooting seven times Jacob Blake in the back in front of three little boys. We don't see it there's no evidence to suggest it.
LEMON: Ben, before we go. I just have to ask you. For Jacob Blake and his family, what is justice look like? The father has just told me. Mr. Blake Sr. has just told me reform. That's part of justice. What is justice to you look like for this family?
[22:29:57]
CRUMP: It certainly looks like holding the officer and officers accountable who did this to Jacob. He's never going to walk again in his life. And I agree with Mr. Blake and his family. They want reform because we don't want to continue to see this happen to black people every other week, Don Lemon. There's another hash tag that you and I are talking about. And that's why we have to have reform.
So, as Mr. Blake said whoever you are, if you are a national leader, local leader, if you are calling the Blake family you need to be talking about reform, making policy. So, we can prevent future Jacob Blake's from being paralyzed.
LEMON: Substance. Substance over rhetoric. I understand you. Thank you, Ben. Thank you, Mr. Blake. My best to you and your entire family.
BLAKE: Don, it was my pleasure, brother. And I appreciate you allowing us on your show. And you tell mother Lemon that she reminds me of mother Blake. And without you all, without them we wouldn't be here.
LEMON: Amen. Thank you. You're in our prayers. Thank you so much. We'll see you soon.
CRUMP: Thank you.
LEMON: The president is going to Kenosha despite -- the president going, I should say, to Kenosha despite multiple Wisconsin officials urging him not to, including my next guest who says the trip is all about what's best for the president's campaign. Not the people he was elected to represent.
Wisconsin's attorney general joins me next.
[22:35:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: President Trump defying the wishes of local officials and visiting Kenosha, Wisconsin, anyway. Let's discuss now with Wisconsin's attorney general, Josh Kaul is here who urged the president to reconsider his visit saying Kenosha residents need space to heal. Mr. Attorney General, thank you so much. I appreciate you joining us.
JOSH KAUL, WISCONSIN ATTORNEY GENERAL: Thanks for having me, Don.
LEMON: So, the president didn't listen to you and to others, he visited despite concerns from you and other officials there. How do you think his trip went today?
KAUL: yes, you're right. The governor asked him not to come, the mayor of Kenosha asked him not to come. I asked him not to come. And unfortunately, what we heard from the president today is consistent with the type of rhetoric we've heard from him throughout the presidency, whether it's his response to Charlottesville or his refusal to condemn the person who killed two individuals and seriously injured a third individual.
We need leaders who are going to work to bring people together to help the community heal and to unite people. And unfortunately, that's not what we've had from Donald Trump.
LEMON: Yes. Let's talk about the investigation into the shooting of Jacob Blake. OK? I know you can't get into specifics. I really understand that. But fill us in on the scope of this investigation how much evidence do you have, how many witness interviews, how far it's progressed. Anything you can tell us.
KAUL: Yes. We are an independent investigating agency, the Wisconsin Department of Justice. We investigate a number of cases where there's an officer involved shooting. And we do that so it's an agency that's different from the agency where the shooting took place.
We conduct those investigations swiftly. But we make sure that we do it fully and so we get to the bottom of all the relevant facts. And so, this investigation has been moving along quite quickly. There have been over 80 witness interviews conducted, over 100 pieces of evidence collected and our goal is to vigorously pursue justice and turn over as full recitation of the fact as we can to the prosecutor who then makes a charging decision so that if the prosecutor decides not to bring charges it's clear why. And if the prosecutor does bring charges the case is as strong and ready to go for prosecution as possible.
LEMON: OK. So, speaking of, let's talk about the shooting suspect. Kyle Rittenhouse. I realize that case is under your jurisdiction -- isn't under your jurisdiction, excuse me. But more broadly, do you have concerns about vigilante or militia-types in your states escalating violence on the streets. And then, you know, the president retweeting support and that sort of thing for -- or appearing to be cozying up to those folks.
KAUL: I do have concerns about that. Kenosha saw some really difficult nights in the wake of the shooting of Jacob Blake. There are people who committed arsons, people who committed looting and vandalism. And most seriously, there were some serious acts of violence. And people of both political parties need to come together and make
clear that this kind of destructive activity is totally unacceptable. We want to promote peaceful protesting. We want people to come together and heal and call for the kinds of change that they want to see.
But when we have the person in our highest office refusing to condemn that kind of vigilantism that undermines the ability of all of us to fight back against it and it makes our communities less safe.
LEMON: Listen. Let me -- I'll let you read a part of a thread that -- I want to read -- excuse me, part of the thread that you tweeted. You said, while Donald Trump has spoken about law and order he has pardoned his allies, flouted the law and spewed hate and division day after day from our highest office. He is a catalyst for chaos and a threat to the rule of law. You don't buy the president's law and order message, do you?
KAUL: No. You know, consistently we have seen him flout the law as that statement said, whether it was the RNC where he was in open violation with his some of his staffers of the Hatch Act. To the fact that he's been surrounded by people who have committed crimes and, in some cases, he's pardoned those individuals.
Other Democratic attorneys general and I have fought back against a number of illegal actions that his administration has taken. And supporting vigilantes or refusing to condemn them at least, that doesn't promote order either.
[22:39:58]
So, this is a president whose rhetoric has been about law and order but who has done all he can to subvert the rule of law and promoted chaos rather than order in our cities.
LEMON: Mr. Attorney General. Attorney General Kaul, thank you so much. I appreciate your time. Be safe. I know you're very busy so I really do appreciate a lot that you came on this program. Thanks.
KAUL: Thanks for having me, Don.
LEMON: The National Institutes of Health breaking with the president saying there's not enough evidence to back convalescent plasma as a coronavirus treatment as he touts it as a historic breakthrough, the latest on the fight against coronavirus, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: So, I have breaking news that we're just getting in. And I'm reading it here. It is out of Massachusetts tonight. Senator Ed Markey has won his primary in Massachusetts. He's defeating the challenger there, Congressman Joe Kennedy III.
[22:45:02]
Kennedy is conceding. Kennedy, of course, the grandson of Robert F -- Robert F. Kennedy. Chose to take on the sitting senator rather than wait for a spot in a Democratic hierarchy to open up. So, Kennedy is conceding. Markey keeps a seat. That's after a 44-year congressional career. He was defending a seat. It was close. But tonight, it appears Markey has come out the victor. Again, Kennedy now conceding. We'll update you as we get more information, the story coming out of Massachusetts.
In the meantime, it was just last week the FDA issued an emergency use authorization for convalescent plasma. President Trump claiming it was a huge breakthrough at the time. Now the National Institutes of Health pumping the brakes on the use of convalescent plasma as a treatment for COVID-19.
An NIH panel of more than three dozen experts says there's not enough evidence and not enough data to recommend either for, either or against, I should say, either for or against that treatment.
So, let's discuss now. Michael Osterholm is the director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy and the author of "Deadliest Enemy: Our War Against Killer Germs." Dr. Osterholm, good to see you. Thank you so much.
MICHAEL OSTERHOLM, DIRECTOR, CENTER FOR INFECTIOUS DISEASE RESEARCH AND POLICIES: Good evening again. Good to see you.
LEMON: There are a lot of questions raised about the timing of the last week's convalescent plasma announcement and how it coincided with the Republican National Convention. I'm sure that was not coincidence. But now there are even more questions about how the FDA commissioner could call it a breakthrough. What is going on here?
OSTERHOLM: Well, we clearly have a challenge with messaging right now. I think you saw an op-ed piece today by a leading medical researcher in this country calling into question about the information coming from the CDC. You saw a very prominent physician editor of a medical journal call for the FDA commissioner to resign.
In all of my 45 years in this business I've never seen such a challenge to the authority, the scientific creditability and the overall messaging of either of the FDA or the CDC. And so, I think this is a real challenge as we are in the most difficult pandemic of our century.
And there are only two agencies we need to have and be credible, we need to have the authoritative and we need the messaging in those two. So, we were in a real difficult spot right now.
LEMON: In a pickle as they say. So, doctor, a CNN investigation also finding discrepancies in a number of people, 17 and under, who are hospitalized for COVID-19 when comparing the number reported by hospitals in those reported by the Florida Department of Health.
Are American people getting the information they need and can they trust the federal government and the states on this information?
OSTERHOLM: Well, I think in terms of the state government which is where this information first comes from, I think they can trust it. I think the challenge is, is that many of our surveillance systems, the electronic information system we use to collect this information are so outdated. There are hospitals literally are still providing data to health departments by fax machines.
And we have for years talked about the absolute inadequate preparation that we have for disease surveillance for following cases like this at the state and local level. And yet, it has not really been addressed.
So, I don't think this is intentional. I've not had any evidence of that yet. But it surely is a challenge and a real problem because we can't get accurate information in a timely way. And if there was ever time again, we need that during this pandemic.
LEMON: Doctor, thank you. I hope you'll forgive me we're a little bit short tonight because of the breaking news. But we'll see you soon. Thank you for appearing on the program.
OSTERHOLM: Thank you.
LEMON: Thank you. We'll see you.
OSTERHOLM: Sure thing.
LEMON: The president denying systemic racism exists in the U.S. again. Take this. He's comparing police who use too much force to golfers who choke. I can't write this stuff. But it is written right there. So, it's there. But the thing is policing isn't a game.
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LEMON: So, take this. If you're going to talk about police brutality in this country and how it's cost the lives of black people, you might want to avoid using the word choke over and over, unless you're President Trump. Repeatedly over the last couple of days excusing police violence by saying it's just examples of officers who sometimes choke. This was today.
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TRUMP: They have a quarter of a second, a quarter of a second to make a decision. And if they make a wrong decision one way or the other, they're either dead or they're in big trouble. And people have to understand that.
They choke sometimes, and it's a very tough situation, right?
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LEMON: So, for President Trump, an officer choking by hurting or killing someone is just like a game of golf.
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TRUMP: They can do 10,000 great acts, which is what they do, and one bad apple or a choker, you know, a choker, they choke.
(CROSSTALK)
INGRAHAM: You mean they --
TRUMP: Shooting the guy -- shooting the guy in the back many times. I mean, couldn't you have done something different. Couldn't you have wrestled him? You know? I mean, in the meantime, he might have been going for a weapon, and you know, there's a whole big thing there. But they choke just like in a golf tournament. They miss a three-foot --
(CROSSTALK)
INGRAHAM: You're not comparing it to golf, because of course that's what the media would say --
TRUMP: No, I'm saying people choke.
INGRAHAM: People might -- people can --
TRUMP: People choke. And people are bad people. You have both. You have some bad people and you have -- they choke.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[22:54:58]
LEMON: She tried to save him, but, you know, can't tell him anything. It's a line he has been saying for days.
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TRUMP: Well, the problem is that if you have one bad policeman or if you have a policeman that frankly chokes, they make a mistake, they choke. I mean, people can make a mistake. That doesn't make them bad. They choke. Bad things happen, and it can happen.
When somebody makes a mistake, he chokes. Or in some cases, you have bad cops. We have to take care of that. In other cases, they choke. They are under -- they have a quarter of a second, a quarter of a second to make a decision, and sometimes they make the wrong decision.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Yes. When the president says an officer choked, he shows a complete lack of empathy for victims of police violence. Some victims like Eric Garner, George Floyd had the life choked out of them. He has said it several times now. It's deliberate. His game is to divide on race and he shows a lot more interest on his golf game than he does on solving this deadly issue. We're back right after this.
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