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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Report: Trump Called Killed U.S. Soldiers 'Losers'; Model Projects 410,000 U.S. COVID-19 Deaths By January. Aired 4-4:30p ET

Aired September 04, 2020 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:00]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: Welcome to this special edition of THE LEAD. I'm Pamela Brown, in for Jake Tapper.

And we begin with the health lead, an influential model now predicting the coronavirus death toll in the United States could reach 400,000 people by the end of the year, now, at the peak a 9/11 level of loss every day; 3,000 Americans could die every day in December.

Health experts are on edge, fearing another surge in cases as we head into a holiday weekend. Right now, more people are flying now than ever during the pandemic.

Let's get right to CNN's Alexandra Field.

And, Alex, we just got news that the FDA has rejected an unproven treatment for the virus. What are you learning?

ALEXANDRA FIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Pamela, it's called oleandrin.

And the FDA rejected it as a dietary supplement, citing significant safety concerns. The FDA made no mention of using it as a treatment for COVID-19. That's despite the fact that the MyPillow CEO, Mike Lindell, who has a stake in the company, has been touting it as a possible therapeutic, saying he even went to the White House to discuss its use with President Trump over the summer.

All this as we are seeing dire new predictions about how this virus will spread across the country.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FIELD (voice-over): A stunning 410,000 total American deaths by New Year's, the latest projection from a group whose predictions so far have been accurate, if not more conservative than actual figures.

And the new model shows many more deaths if we abandon safety protocols and far fewer if everyone wears a mask.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are public health intervention. We know they work.

FIELD: With the election nearing, sources tell CNN the environment is like a pressure cooker inside the FDA, the agency that would ultimately approve a vaccine.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: As we announced a historic, groundbreaking...

FIELD: Since last spring. President Trump has pressed officials to speed up the timeline for developing a vaccine or a therapeutic drug to treat coronavirus, according to sources inside the administration, who tells CNN the efforts are intensifying.

"I would immediately resign if there's undue interference in this process," says Moncef Slaoui, the scientific head of Operation Warp Speed, the effort to bring a vaccine to the American public, in a published interview with the academic journal "Science."

He goes on to say, "There has been absolutely no interference."

Questions of interference were raised after recent CDC guidance instructed states to prepare to possibly distribute millions of doses of vaccine as early as late October, a timeline some top public health officials have called highly unlikely.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In terms of realistic timelines, we're really not expecting to see widespread vaccination until the middle of next year.

FIELD: A Russian vaccine is showing promising limited results, according to the renowned "Lancet" medical journal, but it has not gone through large-scale human trials, while three U.S. vaccine developers are now in the third and final phase of trial.

With the Labor Day weekend upon us, a reality check. The U.S. continues to average roughly 40,000 new COVID-19 cases a day, and saw more than 1,000 deaths on each of the last three days.

In the Northeast, a single wedding in May last month now linked to at least 144 cases and two deaths. And hot spots are lighting up across the Midwest, where some of the surges sparked on college campuses.

GOV. MIKE PARSON (R-MO): And our colleges and our universities have plans in place and are taking all steps necessary to keep their students and communities as safe as possible.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FIELD: And, Pamela, despite any pressure there may be to fast-track a vaccine, we have heard from a number of pharmaceutical companies this week, the latest of which is Moderna. They are saying that they are encouraging all of their trial sites to recruit more diverse populations.

We know the coronavirus has disproportionately affected certain communities. So they say they are making that push, even if it slows down trial enrollments here -- Pamela.

BROWN: All right, Alexandra, thank you so much.

I want to bring in CNN chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

So, Sanjay, let's start with this dire projection, researchers estimating there will be 3,000 people dying every day in December, triple the current rate, higher than we have seen? What's behind that projection and how likely is it?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, that's pretty sobering to look at, no question.

I think there's a few things. When you look, when you sort of dig down into the model, mask usage sort of peaked in early August, and it's sort of been dropping off or tailing off since then.

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The sense from a lot of people, again, according to these modelers, is that there are people who think this thing's over, we have gotten into the fall, and we're sort of through this. It's that sort of sense that the worst is behind us, which, as these models suggest, may not be.

Increased mobility, as Alexandra was just mentioning, going to schools colleges, things like that, and then people go back to their homes, potentially, in the late fall, early winter, for holidays, and things like. That could be fueling it as well.

I mean, it's tough to know with these models. I follow a lot of models, as they say, Pamela, all models are wrong, but some are useful. I think that applies here as well.

And there's other things that are sort of being entered into the mix, more testing, for example, some widespread testing, which could have an impact, maybe new therapeutics. And, obviously, everybody's talking about the vaccine.

But I got to tell you, Pamela, it was interesting. I was watching Alexandra's piece there. And the people behind her in New York, where she is, I saw most people wearing masks walking around outside. Where I live in Georgia, you don't see that still.

I mean, there are some places where you do, but it's a lot less common. And I think that that's the problem. You have these pockets around the country that are probably driving those numbers that you're seeing in that model.

BROWN: OK, so let's talk about masks, because the modelers project universal mask wearing could save 122,000 lives.

Yet we now have President Trump openly mocking Joe Biden for wearing a mask. He's sort of been back and forth on the mask thing. Do you think President Trump's words turn people away from doing something that's good for their health?

GUPTA: Yes, I think I -- getting mocked for wearing a mask, I mean, I think that that's sort of the -- that's the problem here.

If you say, yes, you should wear a mask, but then you also mock people who wear masks, I mean, that's a concern. I mean, if the message was, look, today, you could be part of a movement that helps save 120,000 lives in the next few months, you could be part of that movement, just put two ear loops on and wear that mask, I mean, that would be a very different message.

And, again, in New York, they redlined. They got into this really bad place, and maybe that's left an imprint on people there, and they're like, we're wearing the masks, we saw how bad this can be.

Where I live, if I'm out and about, if I go for a run or something, I carry my mask and I'm going to be around people, I put it on. You kind of feel people sort of staring at you. I mean, it's like that's the mask-wearing guy.

So it's very different culturally in different parts of the country. I'm telling you from my own anecdotal experience only, obviously, but I think that that's part of what's driving it.

BROWN: That's interesting. In some places, it's like, if you don't wear a mask, there's a stigma. In other places, if you do wear a mask, there is a stigma.

GUPTA: Yes. That's right.

BROWN: I want to look at the death rate, because, two weeks ago, on August 20, CDC Director Dr. Robert Redfield said -- quote -- "Hopefully, this week and next week are going to start seeing the death rate really start to drop again."

Is that happening?

GUPTA: Well, it does not look like it's happening. And we can show these graphics.

Again, we follow these numbers closely. We try and dive deeply into not just the general trends, but sort of specific states and things like that. And what seems to have happened right now is that we have sort of gotten into this plateau of around 1,000 deaths a day.

Now, what is also important to know, if you look at case counts overall, I think what Dr. Redfield was sort of counting on was that you started to see the case counts come down. And I think his expectation was they would continue to come down.

But they have also plateaued around 40,000 cases per day. So, death -- now, you know -- we have talked about this for some time -- there's a lagging sort of time indicator here. Usually, a few weeks after someone is diagnosed, if they're going to die, that's when it happens.

It's about 2.5 percent, right, so 1,000 out of 40,000. That's where we seem to be sort of stuck right now. The concern, again, according to Chris Murray and the folks out University of Washington, is that those numbers are going to start to come back up, first, the case counts, because of the mobility, decreased mask usage, all of that, and then, sadly, more deaths. BROWN: Yes, I feel like, if you look back over the last several

months, there is this pattern of, things are getting better, and then people become emboldened, and then things get worse.

We keep seeing this happening.

GUPTA: That's exactly the pattern.

It's interesting, Pamela. I was having this conversation with somebody I was talking to today about the psychology of this. And if this were a storm, if this were a hurricane, people would hunker down, and they would not dare go outside in the middle of a hurricane. You see it, it's bad.

This is a viral storm of sorts. You can't see it, and it lasts a really long time. And I think, because of that, people really go through these periods of time where they think it has passed us, it is gone. It's like a storm that has come and gone.

And they don't realize that this is a sort of viral storm, because we are the hosts, human beings are the hosts, that it's going to continue to be here until we break the cycle of transmission.

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BROWN: Right.

And then you hear these projections we could be seeing around 3,000 deaths a day in December. It's -- we're not out of the woods or close to it, it appears.

Let's talk about a vaccine, because that's what a lot of people are looking forward to, in hopes that that will help contain this pandemic. We're learning that President Trump is really putting the pressure on his administration to deliver a vaccine before Election Day.

Are you concerned there will be a confidence of crisis in a U.S. vaccine because of how much it's been politicized?

GUPTA: Yes, I mean, you can't disentangle seemingly anything from politics nowadays.

I mean, we want pressure, for sure, in terms of actually getting this done. We're in the middle of a pandemic. And there's -- there is a pace of medical innovation that is happening right now, Pamela, that is faster than anything I have ever seen.

I mean, we didn't even know what this disease was a year ago, and we may have a vaccine by the end of the year. I think that that is real.

The concern is that the organization, the FDA, that is responsible ultimately for authorizing this, they haven't had a great track record. I mean, this is no secret, right? They authorized hydroxychloroquine with little evidence. They exaggerated the evidence on convalescent plasma. And I think a lot of people are right to ask, well, what makes us

believe that you won't do the same thing here?

I think that there's a lot of safeguards when it comes to a vaccine. Vaccines are given to healthy people. It has to be a higher bar. If you're giving a therapeutic to someone who's sick in the hospital, has no other options, that's a different bar.

But the vaccine has to have a higher bar. And the other thing, Pamela -- and we have talked about this before -- is that, when you authorize something on an emergency use, you are basically saying, there are no other options, we have got no alternative.

Well, the alternative to a vaccine -- and people don't like to hear this -- is that we wear masks a little bit longer, we physically distance a little bit longer. That is what's worked in countries all over the world.

BROWN: And what I thought was interesting, too, is -- you're right, it's that simple -- but, also, in this phase three trial, you're sort of at the mercy of the participants getting COVID and seeing how the vaccine works.

GUPTA: Yes.

BROWN: So, it's not an easy thing to just say, by this date, we're going to have all the data that we need.

All right, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thank you so much. Always a really interesting discussion with you. We appreciate it.

GUPTA: Have a good weekend.

BROWN: You too.

Well, President Trump, well, he is adamantly denying that he called American troops killed in battle -- quote -- "losers and suckers," but parts of his denials contradict the facts.

Plus, a close look at who's behind Kanye West's presidential run and how his chances of impacting the election just got tougher.

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BROWN: In our politics lead, Vice President Joe Biden is seizing on a report from "The Atlantic" where President Trump called fallen service members losers and suckers.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: My son was an assistant U.S. attorney and he volunteered to go to Kosovo while the war was going on. As a civilian, he wasn't a sucker. The servicemen and women he served with, particularly those who did not come home, were not losers. And if these statements are true, the president should humbly apologize to every Gold Star mother and father and every Blue Star family that he's denigrated and sullied.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Now, as CNN's Boris Sanchez reports, White House officials are furiously denying the report. But at least two four-star generals mentioned in the piece are staying silent.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's a fake story and it's a disgrace that they're allowed to do it.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Today, President Trump continuing his strong and vehement denials of an "Atlantic Magazine" article claiming Trump privately called fallen U.S. service members, quote, losers and suckers.

TRUMP: To me they're heroes. It's even hard to believe how they could do it. And I say that, the level of bravery. And to me, they are absolute heroes.

SANCHEZ: Those comments following an unusual late night statement to reporters after returning from a rally in Pennsylvania.

TRUMP: It's a total lie. It's fake news. It's a disgrace.

SANCHEZ: Reporting in "The Atlantic" cites four sources who say President Trump canceled a visit to honor American war dead at a cemetery in Paris because he feared his hair would become disheveled in the rain, telling senior staff members, quote, why should I go to that cemetery? It's filled with losers.

On that same trip, the article claims Trump referred to the 1,800 marines killed in a major World War I battle as suckers for losing their lives. The White House claimed at the time that plans to visit the Aisne-Marne American cemetery were scrapped because of bad weather.

A line Trump repeated last night.

TRUMP: I called home, I spoke to my wife, I said, I hate this. I came here to go to that ceremony.

SANCHEZ: Though Trump couldn't have called home to Melania. The first lady was traveling with Trump in France.

"The Atlantic" also reporting that during a Memorial Day visit to Arlington National Cemetery in 2017, Trump joined John Kelly at the gravesite of the former chief of staff's son, Robert Kelly, who died serving in Afghanistan.

Sources say Trump turned to Kelly and asked, "I don't get it. What was in it for them?" John Kelly declined to comment on the story.

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ): It is an honor to serve the American people.

SANCHEZ: And following the death of Arizona Senator John McCain, the article also claims Trump reportedly became angry that flags were lowered to half staff at the White House and told aides, "We're not going to support that loser's funeral."

Trump today denying it on twitter writing, quote, I never called John a loser.

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But while campaigning for president in 2015, he did.

TRUMP: He lost. So I never liked him as much after that because I don't like losers.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's a war hero.

TRUMP: He is a war hero -- he is a war hero because he was captured. I like people that weren't captured, OK?

SANCHEZ: Amid the president's rebuke, the journalist behind this story is defending his reporting.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG, EDITOR IN CHIEF, THE ATLANTIC: I stand by my reporting. I have multiple sources telling me this is what happened and so, I stand by it.

SANCHEZ: And Trump's Democratic opponent Joe Biden, whose late son Beau served in the military, saying --

BIDEN: If what is written in "The Atlantic" is true, it's disgusting. Who the heck does he think he is?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SANCHEZ: Now, Pam, another official key to this story that is not commenting on it is General James Mattis, the president's former secretary of defense. We should point out, someone who is commenting on it is John Bolton, the former national security adviser. He was on this trip. He wrote about it in his recent book. He says he did not hear President Trump say these things about service members, though he acknowledges it could've happened when he was not in the room -- Pam.

BROWN: All right, Boris Sanchez, thank you so much.

And here to discuss former presidential candidate and mayor of South Bend, Indiana, Peter -- Pete Buttigieg. He is also a supporter of Vice President Joe Biden.

Nice to see you, Mayor. Thank you for coming on.

You served in Afghanistan and the U.S. Navy Reserve. What is your reaction on this "Atlantic" reporting that the White House denies that President Trump once said what was in it for them, referring to the war dead at the Arlington National Cemetery? PETE BUTTIGIEG (D), FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, my immediate

reaction is not something that I can say on television. I think that right now service members, veterans, their families are furious, not just because what he said.

But I guess the other thing I keep thinking of is where he said that. Section 60 of Arlington National Cemetery is where the most recent American War dead lie, including people who were there when I was serving in Afghanistan a few years ago. It's a place I go to from time to time to pay my respect.

Any cemetery, any -- whether it's abroad or whether it's Arlington, is a place where Americans go to honor those who did everything for this country. And this president seems incapable of grasping what it means to sacrifice.

As a matter of fact, he actually uncharacteristically said something that's true when he said I don't get it. He clearly doesn't. This is a pattern of behavior that goes all the way back to when it was his turn to serve. He got out of it.

And so I think a lot of us who served are processing the emotions of being, on one hand, shocked, and on the other hand, not surprised.

BROWN: Right. You point out he had a medical deferment for alleged bone spurs for the Vietnam War.

But I want to point out, CNN has not independently confirmed "The Atlantic" report. You did hear the president's denial.

Why do you think there's been complete silence from the four-star generals mentioned in the piece like John Kelly and do they have an obligation to speak out?

BUTTIGIEG: I can't say what they're obliged to do. I do think their silence speaks volumes. If this was false, I imagine the generals would've come forward and said so.

But why are we even debating whether the president's telling the truth about this? After all, today, he denied that he had called John McCain a loser. Anybody with Google can tell that that's not true, because you can look up footage or indeed his own tweets where he does.

It makes very little sense to say, OK, the president's lying today about that part, but he's telling the truth when he's denying the others. If we continue going down that road, then that means he thinks all of us are suckers, not just those who serve.

BROWN: So, the White House says, look, there are several officials who were on this trip who have said they did not hear the president say that, they're refuting these allegations.

In this article, do these four unnamed sources owe the American people some transparency? Should they reveal themselves? Does the White House have a point that all of these people are going on the record to say it didn't happen and then you have four unnamed sources who say it did?

BUTTIGIEG: I do think it would be constructive for one of these sources to come forward and say so on the record. On the other hand, I understand why people hesitate to do so.

Look at what happened to Colonel Vindman, somebody who was, by all accounts, a war hero, somebody who stepped forward to speak to wrongdoing, and has now left the military because telling the truth destroyed his career.

So I understand why people hesitate to do that. In a credibility contest between the major news organization that have confirmed this story and this president, I think most of us are pretty clear on who to believe.

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BROWN: These accounts are from events that happened in 2017 and 2018. Is it a disservice that we're just now learning about them now a couple months before the election?

BUTTIGIEG: I'm less worried about that disservice than I am the disservice that the commander in chief of the military does not respect the military. And this has real consequences. Because it means that attitude is in the mind of the person who is sitting in the situation room making life-and-death choices about the people who are serving right now.

How is he supposed to evaluate situations involving Americans who are captured if he thinks any American who was captured is a loser? These are --

BROWN: Real quick, Mayor --

BUTTIGIEG: Yeah?

BROWN: I know we have to let you go. Really quick, to put a pin on this, what is it -- what is in it for soldiers? If the president did question that, what is in it for people like you who have served?

BUTTIGIEG: I mean, what's in it is you get to live in a country as great as America. That doesn't just happen and it certainly doesn't just happen if everybody's looking out for themselves. Part of why America is America is because people step forward and put their lives on the line.

It doesn't make them suckers or losers. It makes them patriots. And it's time for a president who actually understands that.

BROWN: All right. Mayor Pete Buttigieg, thank you so much for coming on.

BUTTIGIEG: Glad to be with you. Thanks.

BROWN: Well, some good news in the monthly jobs report. But is the hiring slowing down? I'll talk with the labor secretary up next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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