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CUOMO PRIME TIME

Biden And Pence "Elbow Bump" At 9/11 Memorial; Rudy Giuliani: "I Did Not Do Oppo Research On Joe Biden"; Scaramucci: President Trump Is "A Bully". Aired 9-10p ET

Aired September 11, 2020 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[21:00:00]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Thank you.

KENNY SMITH, ANALYST FOR NBA ON TNT: Thank you, appreciate it.

COOPER: Well that's it for us. The news continues. Want to hand it over to Chris for CUOMO PRIME TIME.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: Thank you my brother, some real talk right there, really interesting to listen to.

I am Chris Cuomo and welcome to PRIME TIME.

9/11, never forget. 19 years ago, today is when it happened. Many of you have learned about 9/11 as history. But I am all too aware that for far too many of you, almost no time has passed, and to you, my best, as always.

I have thought a lot about what to say tonight. It is a special 9/11, because we come to it in the midst of yet another crisis. And I do have a Closing Argument for you, later in the show.

But the headline is the moment we're living is proof that "Never forget" applies. We need to remember something that we promised to never forget.

Make no mistake, we are under attack again. 200,000 dead almost, 6 million-plus sickened, many of them haven't recovered from COVID-19.

Get used to the term long-haulers. I am one, but I am lucky compared to a fast-growing number who are enduring so much worse. The numbers that we're dealing with in this are much greater than the attacks of that day.

But, back then, we were in a special place that we are not even close to today. We have none of the resolve, the rectitude, the sense of right and wrong, the sense of what we mean to each other.

And as much as leaders today seem to want us to see an enemy in each other, it doesn't have to be this way.

Look at this. Look what happened today. Joe Biden, Mike Pence, this is an ugly a race as I've seen, but knocking arms in a good way, at the 9/11 Memorial in New York City, a pandemic-era elbow bump at the height of a really bitter 2020 election.

Why? Because a moment is much bigger than politics, much bigger than an election, both of them masked up, because that's not weakness, that's strength. You're going to commemorate a day, where people were taken. You do it by honoring the need to keep as many people here as you can.

A present national tragedy that is not getting the response we gave it back then. I know it's different. I know it's very different. And yet, what it takes to get through it is not.

Trump said in the campaign, maybe he could have avoided 9/11. He shouldn't have said it. And I'll tell you what, I lived it. And when it hit, he was nowhere to be found.

And plenty in the private sector stepped up. They were drawing on the example of a president who hadn't been that popular, but he rose to that moment. He commanded our attention to care about one another.

And there was somebody else. There was a Mayor I watched every day, literally come out of the ashes with strength and straight talk, eye- popping straight scary talk. It made him America's Mayor.

Just having him on the show tonight is a sign that no dispute should render us incapable of the decency and the humanity that we see in one another. Even in the worst of times politically, we can always be together.

And former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani, it is an honor, especially on 9/11, to have you on the show. I've missed you.

RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER MAYOR OF NEW YORK CITY: Well it's an honor to be back.

And it's also a very, very unbelievably important day, I know, for me, and for my City, and for many, many reasons, very hard reasons and, as you pointed out, some really beautiful - beautiful things that happened as a result of that terrible attack.

CUOMO: So, I know we spoke about this so many times, over the years, but it bears some reminding for the audience, who doesn't know you as well today.

You were in shock first couple of days. You were in just straight duty mode, trying to figure out what was going on. Nobody knew anything.

But you made decisions. You got on your feet fast, and you started to tell us what you were learning, as you were learning it, even when it was so frightening, and we were all living on edge then that it was going to happen again. People forget that. We didn't think it was a one and done.

GIULIANI: I know they do.

CUOMO: Why--

GIULIANI: Well for - the actual--

CUOMO: --did you feel that you could tell us that kind of stuff and not freak us out, but shore us up?

[21:05:00]

GIULIANI: Well it took a little while, actually, Chris. You're absolutely right. When I arrived at what is now ground zero, for the first time, the second plane had just hit. My Police Commissioner told me it was definitely a terrorist attack.

The one advantage we had was, I was in office for 7.5 years, we had been training obsessively for a terrorist attack. We had been attacked in 1993, right before I came into office.

When I came into office, I established an Emergency Management Center. We never had before. And we would constantly have terrorist threats. So, we must have had four exercises or five exercises and maybe 20 tabletop exercises.

We had 25 different emergency management plans. And I actually thought, I was writing a book about leadership, I actually thought we were prepared for anything, probably a little bit arrogant.

And when I arrived at the site, and I was told to look up, because debris was coming down, and it was hitting people, right near me, and knocking them on the ground, and some of them died.

I looked up, and I saw a man on the 101st floor, and this is a memory that stays with me, I think, every day. I watched him throw himself out the window. And I watched him come down.

And I grabbed my Police Commissioner's arm, Bernie Kerik, and I said, "Bernie, this is beyond the two of us that we got lots of plans, we don't have a plan for this. So, you and I are going to have to just stay calm. We're going to have to make the best decision we can make and then we're going to have to pray to God that it was right, because we're not going to make all the right decisions."

CUOMO: We're showing the video, by the way, the day when you were approaching, Rudy.

GIULIANI: So, I was humbled, really humbled, I was humbled, I was humbled by it.

CUOMO: Just so people know, the man who grabs the Mayor's arm for a moment, who has no jacket on, it comes in about 15 seconds or so.

So, we were there. The Mayor was walking around, kind of figuring out what was going on. Everything's still happening that everything is moving up the streets. Bernie Kerik comes, grabs him. He moves Bernie off him, and then kept moving forward. And that was really your disposition from that day on.

But you were doing something. Look, I could have done the management exercises that you guys were doing. I could never do what you did in the days and weeks and months that succeeded the event.

GIULIANI: Oh, you probably could have.

CUOMO: No way. And that's OK. That's why you were built to lead, and I was built to report on people who lead.

But, when you were telling us the things that you were telling us, not just the media, when you were saying "Look, this was bad, there are a lot of dead people underneath this. This idea that people are alive on the mall, stop saying it, stop suggesting it, it's too hot down there," this fight between NYPD and the NYFD about if they could have gotten to the top of the roof, you made sure that people knew, "Stop it. No one was going to live up there. The heat was unbearable. We can show it to you."

GIULIANI: Yes.

CUOMO: What gave you the sense that the City, and really, the country and the world could handle the reality?

GIULIANI: Well first - the first night I wasn't sure.

So, you might remember the end of my press conference the first night, I was asked "How many casualties?" I was about to say it, and I said, "I don't think you're - people are ready to hear this yet" because I had been told actually, originally, it was 12,000.

At that time I would have said 6,000. The reason there were much fewer casualties, by the way, is the unbelievable--

CUOMO: I know.

GIULIANI: --heroism of the firefighters and the police officers, who got the people - more people out than anybody expected you could get out in that period of time, which is documented in the 9/11 report.

CUOMO: Yes.

GIULIANI: So, I wasn't sure.

And then, the second day, I was like I wanted the City to come back right away. I called up the Stock Exchange. I said, "I want you to open tomorrow." And Dick Grasso says, "Can I come over and talk to you?" And I wanted Broadway to open right away. And I wanted - and people were resisting me.

And, by the third day, I realized, first of all, I had to let people mourn in their own way, and I could start telling them a little bit more of what they were going to face.

So, by the third day and fourth day, I started to get them ready for the fact that well we weren't going to have any survivors. I knew that. I knew that the afternoon of the first day. The Coroner told me.

I went to see the Coroner at 5 o'clock on September 11th, to find out how many body bags I needed. And he told me, "None." And I said, "This can't be possible. I need a couple of thousand."

He said, "You're not going to need any. Do you realize those buildings melted? So now, if those buildings melted, what do you think happened to the bodies?" I said, "I guess they melted?"

And he said, "You're not getting - you're going to identify these people with DNA. You're not going to identify them the way you're used to, being a prosecutor and doing homicide cases." And I mean that just stunned me. And it took me about two days to absorb that.

[21:10:00]

So, I knew I had to prepare people that, first of all - it was after about three days or four days, that I finally announced that we weren't going to have any more survivors. But I knew that at 5 o'clock in the afternoon on September 11th.

So, I tried to feel my way through, Chris. I mean, honestly, I would make a decision. And then I'd say a little prayer. And I'd say "God, I'm not sure I made the right decision, please make it right. You make it right because I - this is beyond me and George Pataki."

I also had a wonderful partnership with the Governor. It was - he was very, very willing to allow me to sort of run things, which of course is natural, because I understood the City better. I mean, he knows the whole State.

I know - I grew up in New York City. I had the fortune really, then, of having been the Chief Prosecutor in New York for seven years. I knew every part of New York City. So, he deferred to me in a way that a lot of governors might not do, I don't know.

CUOMO: Well but also, Rudy, just to be fair--

GIULIANI: And let me--

CUOMO: --I have no problem coming at you about things I don't agree with. But you had transcended the role.

And ordinarily like, may he rest in peace, as much as my father respected you, if he had been Governor at the time he probably wanted to have a bigger footprint. But you had had such command of the situation that there was no need, there was nothing lacking.

Even when the President came, President Bush came, and he meant so much to the City, the eyes were on you, every bit as much--

GIULIANI: Yes.

CUOMO: --because you embodied the City. And I think a lot of it was the toughness that you exhibited.

And look, I'm not going to lie to you. I'm not going to give you some other story. This is what it is. And this is what it's going to be like, and this is how it is. And look, I just want to say something here. And I want to - you know

I'm asking you this in part because people need to remember on this day.

And I will never forget what you did for the City. I will never forget you did - what you did for my friends and the families that I know and love that lost people, by giving them a sense of what was and what wasn't. Nobody should ever forget that about you.

And I do so much appreciate you coming on, on 9/11 for people to remember that. Full stop!

I also believe that the significance of these Woodward tapes is important on a leadership level. You would not handle this situation the way it's being handled right now, because we saw you handle a crisis, and I know 9/11, to anything else, is apples to oranges.

But what do you think of the idea of the criticism that you knew things were bad and you didn't tell us even though telling us would help us protect ourselves? You wouldn't do that.

GIULIANI: Well, I'm not sure that's the right interpretation, Chris.

CUOMO: Go ahead.

GIULIANI: I mean there are things that I knew that I never told anybody. I mean I never - I never - I never told anyone about the danger the City was in of being flooded because the slurry walls had burst.

CUOMO: True. The slurry walls in the World Trade Center.

GIULIANI: And I mean I would have - I would have - I would have done it - I would have done it if I knew there was a hurricane coming. I would have done it in a minute.

CUOMO: Right.

GIULIANI: But I felt, why let them - let me absorb that worry. That's - and I never really told them quite what really were the conditions down there. You know we had these wonderful ceremonies with caskets and flags. And I never really told them what was really - what was really there.

So, you do try to - you do try to be somewhat euphemistic when you're going through - when you're going through a crisis. And look, I really think - I think there's a big difference between these two things.

CUOMO: Very big.

GIULIANI: We were prepared - we were prepared for a terrorist attack. We weren't prepared for airplanes--

CUOMO: Right.

GIULIANI: --hitting buildings. That was kind of different. But we had had terrorist attacks before. We have - my people were trained for it.

CUOMO: The World Trade Center had been hit before in 1993.

GIULIANI: So, we weren't prepared. We didn't know--

CUOMO: So, you knew.

GIULIANI: --we didn't know - we didn't know, last year at this time, we didn't know what COVID-19 was.

CUOMO: Right.

GIULIANI: We had no idea what it was. In January, we probably didn't really know what it was. So, I think, everybody, whether it's the President or the governors, or the - they're dealing with something very, very novel and different.

And I think the President made some very, very good decisions. Closing down the country to China was an enormously significant decision, for which he was terribly criticized.

Turns out he was absolutely right. Another month of Chinese people coming to the United States, we'd probably have another couple 100,000 people dead. I mean that was a fortuitously or whatever, that was a great decision.

[21:15:00]

The governors, back in March and April, of this year, I got the quotes, are talking about how cooperative he was, including Governor Cuomo, Governor Newsom, Governor Murphy, about how cooperative the federal government was.

CUOMO: My brother was absolutely on that list of saying--

GIULIANI: I was very pleased that they brought it--

CUOMO: --when the President was good to him, and when he was cooperative, and when they had good cause, as they should have been, as they should have been. It's no time to play politics.

Look, I think the China move was obviously the smart move, whether it was popular or not. I feel that the President is politicizing it by saying Biden was against it. We've scrubbed this--

GIULIANI: He was.

CUOMO: --as a fact-check. He never said he was against it. In fact, he said in April he was for it. But I don't want to play politics with you, Rudy. I really don't. I swear to God.

GIULIANI: Wait, wait, wait, wait.

CUOMO: I'm telling you.

GIULIANI: He actually said the President was xenophobic. He accused him of being a xenophobe.

CUOMO: He did. But he wasn't talking about--

GIULIANI: That very day.

CUOMO: --the China move. He was talking about his--

GIULIANI: Yes, he was.

CUOMO: I'm telling you, I looked at it, and we went through it for context, a long time ago, and then again. But, again, Rudy, we don't have to argue about it, because it was good that he did it. It was good that he shut off travel. You can argue timing.

GIULIANI: OK.

CUOMO: He made exemptions where as 40,000 people still came in, but it was a good move and it wasn't a popular move. Let's - I stipulate to that. I give you it. What I'm saying--

GIULIANI: And then he - he closed down Europe also.

CUOMO: I know. Look, in both cases--

GIULIANI: Before - before any of - before anybody else was warning people about what was going on. Look--

CUOMO: But that changed, Rudy.

GIULIANI: --he didn't - he didn't know what he was facing.

CUOMO: This is why I'm asking you.

GIULIANI: Just like--

CUOMO: But this is why I'm asking you. Let me just get the context of the question.

GIULIANI: Yes.

CUOMO: And you go ahead.

I'm not saying he did nothing right. I have never said that, never, ever. I really don't deserve all the attention I get as an inimical force to this Administration but that's OK.

This is what I'm saying. You didn't tell everybody about everything that went on, because it was too painful. It was too much.

This is a different situation, where the President knew certain realities about how dangerous this could be, and not only did he not tell us that, but he also told, especially his own supporters, not to do the things that would keep them safe, Rudy. That's the part I just will never accept that you would have done. Never!

GIULIANI: Well all I could - look, I wasn't part of those meetings and neither were you. I don't know what he knew, at a certain period of time, or what a governor or a mayor knew. It was all very novel.

I do - I do put a lot of faith in Dr. Fauci, who says that the comments that he made publicly were absolutely consistent with what he was being briefed on privately.

CUOMO: Right, but they changed.

GIULIANI: So, I mean, back in those days--

CUOMO: And the President didn't, Rudy.

GIULIANI: --back in those days, Fauci was telling us that we didn't have to wear a mask.

CUOMO: That's right, and he was wrong.

GIULIANI: And he was telling us it's not going to be as bad as people think.

CUOMO: He was - and he was wrong.

GIULIANI: And he was telling us it wasn't going to be as bad as people think.

CUOMO: And he was wrong.

GIULIANI: So, the President - the President had a - well, he was wrong because a month later he turned out to be wrong. But that's the advice the President is getting at the time from--

CUOMO: I know. But the advice changed, Rudy.

GIULIANI: --from his top adviser.

CUOMO: The advice changed. Look, and you--

GIULIANI: Not - not - those comments - those comments were made in February.

CUOMO: In February.

GIULIANI: And repeated in March. They didn't - yes, they didn't change at that time.

CUOMO: The--

GIULIANI: At that time, just about everybody thought it wasn't going to be anywhere near as bad as it was.

CUOMO: Absolutely true.

GIULIANI: He may have - he may have - he may have been--

CUOMO: In January and early February. Then they started to give the President different projections and recommendations. And look, there are a lot of things I'm not sure. GIULIANI: What? Do you think Fauci's lying?

CUOMO: No. No. No. They were just wrong.

GIULIANI: You think Fauci's lying? Fauci has said, unequivocally, but he's saying that the President reflected the advice that he was given by his advisers.

CUOMO: Yes, but hold on.

GIULIANI: So, I don't know--

CUOMO: This isn't the right, Rudy. But keep it in context.

GIULIANI: --I could have done any better than that.

CUOMO: What Tony Fauci said was, to his recollection, and in his experience, he never briefed the President on something, and then had him go out and say something else. But that assumes that this information all came from Tony Fauci, which it did not.

We know from the tape that in February, he was told things about the potential severity of this. Not only did he go out and say "It's not that bad, it's not like the flu. Don't worry," when he knew it was and could be. Guess what? I'll give you that too, because maybe you don't want to panic people. But he--

GIULIANI: I don't even - I don't - I don't know of anything--

CUOMO: I got the timeline right in front of me.

GIULIANI: --he found out and--

CUOMO: I've got the timeline right in front of me.

GIULIANI: I don't know about anything he found out in February that--

CUOMO: February 7th, he told Woodward.

GIULIANI: --Anthony Fauci didn't know.

CUOMO: It's not about Fauci because Fauci was giving the message about masks and getting yelled at for giving it after he changed. And they didn't want him to say it.

GIULIANI: But how would - how would--

CUOMO: And they attacked Fauci.

GIULIANI: --President Trump - how would President Trump know the severity of COVID-19 in February? He would have to have been a prophet to know the severity of COVID.

CUOMO: February 7th, Rudy.

GIULIANI: That's the time that - that's the time that people were telling, like the Mayor of the City--

CUOMO: Rudy?

GIULIANI: --was telling people to go out and have a good time.

CUOMO: Rudy? No, they weren't.

GIULIANI: Up until March.

CUOMO: That's what Trump was saying.

GIULIANI: Up until March.

CUOMO: Rudy? February--

GIULIANI: No, no, no, no.

CUOMO: I'm trying--

GIULIANI: Nancy Pelosi tells them to go to Chinatown at the end of February.

CUOMO: One President, one President.

GIULIANI: She tells them to go to Chinatown.

CUOMO: One President. Let's say--

GIULIANI: Let's go to Chinatown--

CUOMO: --so let's say Nancy was wrong.

GIULIANI: --because we're discriminating against them.

CUOMO: Nancy Pelosi was wrong. Nancy Pelosi was wrong.

GIULIANI: But then - but I have all kinds of comments--

CUOMO: She's not president.

GIULIANI: --from Pelosi--

CUOMO: February--

GIULIANI: --from your brother, from other people in February that this was not going to be bad.

[21:20:00]

CUOMO: First of all, they were getting their information--

GIULIANI: Maybe it's not going to be that bad.

CUOMO: --from the President and the federal agencies.

GIULIANI: They were getting their information - they were getting the same information the President was getting.

CUOMO: That's right.

GIULIANI: Chris, they were getting the same information.

CUOMO: And in February, they started to shift, Rudy.

GIULIANI: The President didn't have any--

CUOMO: And he didn't. February 7th, Trump told--

GIULIANI: He did - well--

CUOMO: --Woodward, "The Coronavirus is more deadly than the flu." Two weeks later, he told Sanjay Gupta that that wasn't true. But this is the more important part. I'll give you. They all didn't know anything. They're all confused.

GIULIANI: Well maybe - maybe--

CUOMO: But here's the bigger point, Rudy, and this is the part I want you to speak to.

GIULIANI: Right.

CUOMO: He wasn't just not telling them things he knew. I'll give you that. Maybe that's good leadership, I don't know, I don't want to debate it.

But he also knew that people should be wearing masks, should be socially distancing, because this was going to be worse than we had thought. And he didn't tell them that. He told them to do the opposite. Why?

GIULIANI: Well, you know, well I'm going to tell you why, because when you sit in a room, and you have five advisers or six advisers, I am sure he got conflicting information and advice. I don't - I don't remember the timeline as well as you do. But I do remember a number of doctors saying that wearing a mask wouldn't help at all.

CUOMO: That was way early.

GIULIANI: And that at least lasted until March.

CUOMO: No.

GIULIANI: Well I remember - I remember - I remember them saying that.

CUOMO: But the people around him were saying the opposite.

GIULIANI: So, there was a lot of confusion about whether the wearing of a mask could help.

CUOMO: They were wearing masks.

GIULIANI: In fact, I found it very difficult to wear a mask. I can't breathe when I have it on. And--

CUOMO: Well Rudy, it's not easy.

GIULIANI: --and my glasses - and my glass--

CUOMO: I'm not saying it's easy.

GIULIANI: I tripped twice because--

CUOMO: I know. And they - and they fog up at stuff.

GIULIANI: --my glasses get fogged up.

CUOMO: I know it's not. But you would do it to save yourself and save others.

GIULIANI: Well I figured out how to do it now. I put it - I put it down here.

CUOMO: Yes, you're a smart guy. I knew you'd figure it out, Rudy.

GIULIANI: Just advice for people, I put it down here.

CUOMO: But what I'm saying is this. Still today, the President is doing this. He just held a rally, where people were crammed in, in Michigan, and he said they're turning the curve up there. They're not turning the curve. And they're not wearing masks, masks are optional.

Why Rudy? Why not just tell them "Wear the damn mask. Don't come to a rally like this. I'm not going to hold them."

GIULIANI: Well they are, I mean - I mean, you think it's as bad now - I mean the fatality - the mortality rate has been cut by about 80 percent.

CUOMO: I think we're doing better. But it's still bad.

GIULIANI: I mean we were 5 percent. We're below 1 percent now.

CUOMO: The case numbers are still growing there.

GIULIANI: Well look - yes, but no, what we got to look at is not the case numbers. I mean a lot of the COVID diagnoses, as "The New York Times" said, are questionable. I mean the question is how many people died? I mean, we got all kinds of illnesses, the ones that you have to--

CUOMO: No. Sick matters, Rudy.

(CROSSTALK)

GIULIANI: --can be fatal.

CUOMO: Sick matters.

GIULIANI: And the-- CUOMO: Sick matters.

GIULIANI: Well sick matters, it does, but we can get sick from any number of things. We don't - we don't--

CUOMO: Yes, but not sick like this, Rudy.

GIULIANI: --close the country because we're going to get sick.

CUOMO: I mean I told you several times, God forbid, take care of yourself--

GIULIANI: The reason we close - the reason we close the country--

CUOMO: --this is not the flu.

GIULIANI: --the reason we close the country is because that we felt the hospitals were going to be overloaded with patients that they couldn't handle, it would crack - it would crack our medical system.

CUOMO: Right.

GIULIANI: And the fatality rate, at that time, was about 4 percent or 5 percent.

CUOMO: Right.

GIULIANI: Because it was in the early stages.

CUOMO: Right.

GIULIANI: Well it's down to 1 percent or lower right now and our hospitals are not overloaded.

CUOMO: Well but that's also because so many places did the right thing.

GIULIANI: So, I mean we deal with all kinds of diseases.

CUOMO: And this is the part I don't get.

GIULIANI: And we got to move forward. We can't - we can't--

CUOMO: Rudy, you would have done the same thing--

GIULIANI: --we can't let--

CUOMO: --that they did in New York during this. If you had the information that the numbers were going to go this way and people needed to separate, and be their own prophylaxis--

GIULIANI: I wouldn't - I wouldn't do what they're doing now, Chris.

CUOMO: You--

GIULIANI: I wouldn't keep this City closed as long as they keep it closed.

CUOMO: No, hold on a second. Hold on, hold on, hold on, one step at a time.

GIULIANI: I would - I think they're killing the city.

CUOMO: When Andrew was closing--

GIULIANI: No, no, you're wrong. I think what they're doing to this City is--

CUOMO: I'm - that's--

GIULIANI: --could be fatal to the City.

CUOMO: That's now. That's now. I don't want to - we'll talk about now. But I'm saying--

GIULIANI: But they're overdoing it - they're overdoing it now.

CUOMO: But again, Rudy?

GIULIANI: They're killing this City. You go talk to the people in these restaurants.

CUOMO: Rudy, I'm not debating you about now.

GIULIANI: I mean they're leaving in droves.

CUOMO: Hold on. Let's just - let's go to then and then we can come back to now.

GIULIANI: OK.

CUOMO: I know that's like--

GIULIANI: I can't remember then as well as now.

CUOMO: Well listen, but then matters, and I'll tell you why.

GIULIANI: I know it does. But--

CUOMO: And look, it's not just because I had it. I'm one of the lucky ones, all right? It's not like I got some axe to grind because I had COVID.

GIULIANI: Well and God bless you.

CUOMO: Thank you.

GIULIANI: God bless you for getting through it.

CUOMO: Thank you, I appreciate that. What I'm saying is--

GIULIANI: I was - I was praying for you, Chris.

CUOMO: I know you were, and I know we've had our disagreements, and I know you've been angry at me. But you know my respect is very deep.

GIULIANI: But you know I love you anyway, so that's OK.

CUOMO: I know. And look, and that's what we need to remember in this day and place. I mean, for you and me, it's easy. I've had respect for you my entire life. That will never change. It doesn't matter - I don't have to like what you do. You don't have to like what I do and say for that to still be there.

GIULIANI: And I - I have the same respect for you and your - and you know it, I have that respect for your family. You have a wonderful family.

CUOMO: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Mayor, I appreciate it.

GIULIANI: Absolutely wonderful.

CUOMO: What I'm saying is this.

GIULIANI: Everybody should have a family like yours, my friend.

CUOMO: Well, I don't know about that. I think--

GIULIANI: I'm talking about your brother and your--

CUOMO: --I think one is enough.

GIULIANI: --particularly your mother.

CUOMO: One is enough. One is enough. But this is what I'm saying.

GIULIANI: And your wife, and your kids, and the whole family--

CUOMO: Well that--

GIULIANI: --and your dad who you know I admired tremendously.

CUOMO: But look, and you look, and I'll tell you something.

GIULIANI: Even though I disagreed with him, I admired him. As an Italian-American, he was a hero to me, when I was your age, first, and I was a mayor (ph).

CUOMO: And Pop respected what you did, especially then, because it was hard.

GIULIANI: I wish we could do that.

CUOMO: A lot of people didn't want to hear it.

[21:25:00]

GIULIANI: Can I just - can I just say one thing, Chris?

CUOMO: Sure.

GIULIANI: A little different? We got to get back to that. I mean I saw you show that picture of Pence and--

CUOMO: Biden.

GIULIANI: --and Biden. And I remember - I wrote an Op-Ed piece when your brother and Murphy and a few people praised the President. And I said, "This is wonderful. They're getting above politics."

We got to find ways to do that. We got to find ways. I mean, I was a - I was a Republican Mayor in a Democratic city. I had to get along with Peter Vallone. He was the Head of the City Council. I couldn't have passed a damn thing without Peter Vallone.

So, the first day I was mayor, I walked into his office. I said, "Peter, I'm the new mayor. You know that. We know each other not that well. We're going to have to work together. And I want you to know that I really respect you."

He said, "You know, no mayor's ever walked into my office before. They always required me to come over." And I said, "Well, I need you, Peter. I'm not - I'm not going to bull you, I need you. I need you to get things through the City Council, so I'm willing to compromise if you are."

CUOMO: Yes. And that's called politics.

GIULIANI: And we worked out a beautiful relationship. I mean--

CUOMO: That's called doing deals.

GIULIANI: Doesn't mean - it doesn't mean we sometimes called--

CUOMO: And getting things done for people.

GIULIANI: --each other names.

CUOMO: I'm sure. I remember well.

GIULIANI: And fought with each other. And a few times--

CUOMO: But look--

GIULIANI: --and a few times we made believe we were fighting.

CUOMO: Rudy?

GIULIANI: We had a deal, but to satisfy my whackos and to satisfy his whackos we pretended we were fighting with each other.

CUOMO: Look, it's OK when it's pretend. The problem is--

GIULIANI: That's what you got to do in politics.

CUOMO: I know. But here's the thing. Your client does not play that way. And I am Exhibit A of that. This is this--

GIULIANI: It's a different time. It's a different time, Chris. CUOMO: I know. But you know what? Decency never goes out of style.

GIULIANI: It's a different time. There are different needs in the country.

CUOMO: Decency - you think a country needs--

GIULIANI: I said - I think he I--

CUOMO: --what it's going through right now?

GIULIANI: You know--

CUOMO: You think the country needs a president who wants to treat me as somebody--

GIULIANI: I guess we all look at it.

CUOMO: --who should be destroyed and attacked on a regular basis? Is that what the country needs?

GIULIANI: I think if - I think if you would - if you would treat him - I mean, from his point of view - so, I'll tell you his point of view.

CUOMO: Yes.

GIULIANI: If you would treat him more fairly, and if your Network would, I think you would find him to be enormously appreciative and very willing to work with you. I think the fact that from the day he came into office, a lot of the Democrats wanted to impeach him, from day one.

CUOMO: Yes, but that's not me.

GIULIANI: They didn't want him to succeed at anything.

CUOMO: That's not the free press.

GIULIANI: I know it's not you. But the press has been brutal on him.

CUOMO: Look, it's not about me.

GIULIANI: I know you don't - you don't believe that.

CUOMO: What I'm saying is the dynamic--

GIULIANI: From my point of view - from my point of view, I've never seen a president brutalized like this.

CUOMO: Well you've also never seen a president--

GIULIANI: I mean it's brutal what they do to him.

CUOMO: --put out what he's put out. I mean this president, it's not just style.

GIULIANI: Well I think - I think - I think he's fighting back to try to get his - he's trying to get his message out.

CUOMO: Yes. And his - and his message is--

GIULIANI: He's trying to get his message out through a - through what he believes--

CUOMO: --"The media is your enemy. The Blacks are your enemy."

GIULIANI: They are.

CUOMO: "The immigrants are your enemy." The media is not the enemy of the American people, Rudy.

GIULIANI: The immigrants - no, the immigrants aren't his enemy. The illegal immigrants are his enemy, not the immigrants, not the legal immigrants.

CUOMO: I know. But illegal immigrants aren't your enemy either. They're just not coming in the country the right way, doesn't mean that they're savages.

GIULIANI: Well anybody who actually illegally isn't the enemy. But there are people that have to be dealt with in the legal system.

CUOMO: Yes. But you don't - but you don't--

GIULIANI: You can't just let people act however they want to act.

CUOMO: --but you don't demonize them as rapists. "They're going to come here and rape your women and kill you."

GIULIANI: Well he didn't demonize the illegal immigrants.

CUOMO: He does.

GIULIANI: He demonized - he demonized MS-13--

CUOMO: No. Way beyond Rudy.

GIULIANI: --who chopped people's heads off. He should--

CUOMO: Way beyond. If this were a generation ago, Trump would have been saying this stuff about your parents and mine.

GIULIANI: No, he wouldn't.

CUOMO: They would - we would have been there.

GIULIANI: My parents and your parents didn't shot people's heads off. They didn't sell drugs.

CUOMO: Not MS-13.

GIULIANI: No, he wouldn't have said it about my parents and your parents. And firstly--

CUOMO: Just the unwashed (ph) immigrants.

GIULIANI: --the ones he is talking about.

CUOMO: That's who we were.

GIULIANI: Chris, the ones he's talking about are the ones who commit crimes of which there are, unfortunately, a fairly significant number.

CUOMO: He went way beyond that.

GIULIANI: Not all of them.

CUOMO: He went way beyond that, Rudy.

GIULIANI: He did not. He hasn't - I know him really well. Those are not - he is not referring to illegal immigrants who come here and they just want a job. He actually is sympathetic with that.

CUOMO: He says "Those caravans!"

GIULIANI: He says he want to make a deal--

CUOMO: "They are filled with bad people. They're going to come here."

GIULIANI: Well, they are. They - they--

CUOMO: "They're going to - murderers and rapists."

GIULIANI: --in some cases, in some cases they are.

CUOMO: It's lower percentages than our citizens, Rudy.

GIULIANI: In some cases, they are.

CUOMO: There're lower percentages of bad people than our citizens.

GIULIANI: Go meet the families, go meet--

CUOMO: Come on. I'm just saying--

GIULIANI: Because they're citizens, you'd have to deal with them.

CUOMO: --you know what he's doing, Rudy.

GIULIANI: You don't have to deal with the people who come over the border. Look, you haven't met with, like he has, the families of children were killed by illegal criminal immigrants.

CUOMO: But Rudy, that's not fair. Yes, I have, and we cover it. And it's wrong. And the system should be changed. Change the rules. I've been down on that border.

GIULIANI: That's what he wants to do. That's what he wants to do.

CUOMO: No, he doesn't.

GIULIANI: And he had to get on with them--

CUOMO: They were asking him to change the rules, and he said, "No, I want to do the wall, it plays better." But hold on, I don't want to go that far back.

GIULIANI: No. No. He had a deal - he had a deal--

CUOMO: I don't want to go that far back. He didn't have a deal. He walked away from the deal.

GIULIANI: --with them, and they - they didn't want to give him a victory.

CUOMO: He walked away from the deal.

GIULIANI: All right. He did not walk away from the deal.

CUOMO: And now he wants to get rid of--

GIULIANI: But OK. We can disagree about that.

CUOMO: --the same type of immigrant protection that got his wife's ability to bring their family into the country. He wants to get rid of it.

GIULIANI: No, he doesn't. He wants to get rid of illegal immigrants being able to come over--

CUOMO: Family reunification.

GIULIANI: --so that criminals can hide - can I finish what I was saying?

CUOMO: Go ahead, please Rudy.

[21:30:00]

GIULIANI: So that - so that they don't hide with them, Chris. And that's what he wants to do. Whether it's - however you interpret it, what he is concerned about are criminals, who hide with the other illegal immigrants that come in here for purposes like work.

CUOMO: But that's always been the concern. Nobody ever eradicated the entire policy.

(CROSSTALK)

GIULIANI: That's his concern.

CUOMO: That's what he wants to do.

GIULIANI: But - but your - but the Biden Party is in favor--

CUOMO: And I think it's part of a scare campaign.

GIULIANI: --of an open border. CUOMO: Well then they're - then they're wrong.

GIULIANI: But the Biden Party is in favor of an open border.

CUOMO: Then they're wrong. And they should lose the debate on that issue. I have no problem with that. You've never heard anybody come on my show, having embraced for an open-border policy.

GIULIANI: We can't have an open - we can't have an open border.

CUOMO: I'm not saying--

GIULIANI: Of course they say--

CUOMO: But I never made that argument. I've never made that argument.

GIULIANI: They even--

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: I've never endorsed it.

GIULIANI: --want open border.

CUOMO: And I've never condoned it on my show. What I'm saying is demonizing the people.

GIULIANI: Well that's what he's concerned about, an open border. He would be willing - let me tell you honestly, he'd be willing to compromise short of an open border. He has sympathy--

CUOMO: Then do it. Then do it.

GIULIANI: --he has sympathy - he has sympathy for the people who are here illegally, who are working, and are not criminals.

CUOMO: All right, fine.

GIULIANI: He has great concern--

CUOMO: But let's see him do it.

GIULIANI: --about the ones who are criminals and are victimizing our people.

CUOMO: Let's see him do it. That's fine.

GIULIANI: That's - I mean that's--

CUOMO: That's fine. Because, if you - look, if you're worried about crimes, there are a lot of places to look before you look at illegal immigrants. But I'm fine with shoring up the rules of having them come in here.

GIULIANI: But you got to look--

CUOMO: I've argued it on the show many times. But I want to get to something else.

GIULIANI: But you got to look at all crimes.

CUOMO: I do look at all crime.

GIULIANI: Go ahead.

CUOMO: But this is the other thing. You said we got to get back to decency. We had our fights about what you were doing in Ukraine and what that was about. I believe that it was an obvious political oppo research campaign to take down Biden.

GIULIANI: It wasn't. I didn't - I didn't do an oppo research campaign. I'm a lawyer. I was - I was - and this all goes back. I finished what I was doing a year ago.

So, it was part of my representation of my client to show that a lot of the information from the Steele dossier, a lot of the information that was attributed to sources and other places came from the Ukraine. And I was able to prove that. And I had it available should they ever try to impeach him, based on Russian collusion.

Look, when I did that, Mueller was still investigating Russian collusion. He didn't conclude that until late March, April of last year.

CUOMO: Right.

GIULIANI: So, I was collecting information, as a defense lawyer, to defend my client. I've been accused of doing that. But that's not true.

CUOMO: Well I'm not accusing you of trying to defend your client.

GIULIANI: And I first found out about Joe Biden 2.5 years ago.

CUOMO: I'm saying you guys were looking for information to frame Biden and make him look as bad as Trump looked into what they were doing.

GIULIANI: I wasn't trying to frame Biden. I wasn't framing - trying to frame Biden. I was told that Biden - that Biden got bribed. And not only that, I've got--

CUOMO: Yes, you were told by shady people.

GIULIANI: Not - no, no it wasn't. I was told by direct witnesses that he went look--

CUOMO: I know they were direct witnesses.

GIULIANI: --that Biden found--

CUOMO: But they're people who were found to be shady. They have the--

GIULIANI: Chris? Chris? Chris?

CUOMO: The new prosecutor over there said once and for all--

GIULIANI: Chris? Chris?

CUOMO: --Biden had nothing to do with what's wrong with Burisma.

GIULIANI: No, he didn't.

CUOMO: Yes, he did.

GIULIANI: He did not.

CUOMO: I'll read you the quote.

GIULIANI: Burisma is the most crooked company in the Ukraine.

CUOMO: I'm not saying the company.

GIULIANI: Burisma is the most crooked company.

CUOMO: I'm not saying the company is OK.

GIULIANI: Look, we can't debate--

CUOMO: I'm saying that the prosecutor said that Biden is--

GIULIANI: --we can't debate every - every--

CUOMO: --not part of the company's problems. That's what I'm saying. And then - and you know that's what he said.

GIULIANI: Biden - Biden - the Biden family got about anywhere from $8 million to $10 million, some of it laundered. I got the documents.

CUOMO: They don't have any proof of that.

GIULIANI: From--

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: They have Kholodnytsky - this guy, Kholodnytsky.

GIULIANI: Can I finish? Can I? Can I, Chris?

CUOMO: Kholodnytsky had--

GIULIANI: Chris?

CUOMO: Well but I got to get the context right

GIULIANI: Chris?

CUOMO: Kholodnytsky, Head of Anti-Corruption Investigations right now.

GIULIANI: No. But you can't interrupt me in the middle of an answer.

CUOMO: Well but hold on. GIULIANI: Chris? Chris, please.

CUOMO: Because the context matters.

GIULIANI: The reason is unsatisfying--

CUOMO: They said "Let's put an end to this once and for all. Biden Jr. And Biden Sr. do not appear in this particular proceeding."

GIULIANI: Oh, Chris! Totally untrue.

CUOMO: He's the investigator.

GIULIANI: Completely untrue, and I can show you the documents. Will you let me finish the answer?

CUOMO: Now, go ahead.

GIULIANI: I can show you a document - I can show you a document in which $14.3 million is laundered. This is a Latvian, Ukrainian document, and $3 million of that goes to Biden's kid. Look, the Biden's family enriched themselves in Iraq, in Ukraine, and unbelievably in China.

CUOMO: But if you cared about that so much, Rudy--

GIULIANI: They made millions selling this office. It's a disgraceful crime.

CUOMO: And, first of all, I'm not - I'm not stipulating to those facts.

GIULIANI: And it's being covered up.

CUOMO: Because the guy investigating it doesn't come to the same conclusion.

GIULIANI: You don't have to stipulate, you know that's true.

CUOMO: But if you're upset about that kind of that stuff that his son is making deals that they shouldn't make, you got Ivanka Trump getting trademarks from China. She just got another one in like the last week. She's working for the United States of America and cutting her own business deals. Why would you support Trump ever--

GIULIANI: Look, I don't - I'm not--

CUOMO: --if you are worried about that kind of conduct?

GIULIANI: Look, I - well if you're worried about that kind of conduct, and you should be worried about the fact that Biden's son, right now, still has in Chinese business--

CUOMO: I covered all of it.

GIULIANI: --half-owned by the Chinese government as his partner. And he will not disclose how much money he's made from China.

CUOMO: His guy say he made none.

GIULIANI: When Joe was failing in negotiating.

CUOMO: The guys say he hasn't made any.

GIULIANI: Well he has. I mean that's just not true.

CUOMO: They say he owns a piece of the company. He hasn't made any money.

GIULIANI: Have the guys disclosed his records?

CUOMO: But we don't have any other proof.

But wait, I want to end where we started, Rudy, because leadership, on this day, especially.

[21:35:00]

GIULIANI: Well I hope we do, because this is very unsatisfying when you can't answer the question, Chris. If you're going to ask me a question, you really should give me the opportunity to answer.

CUOMO: Hold on, Rudy, I'm giving you full opportunity to answer.

GIULIANI: I do have answers for these things. And I didn't - I did not - I did not do oppo research on Joe Biden. I was defending my client in the most honorable way a lawyer can do. And I have been defamed with that charge.

CUOMO: Well I am not trying to defame you.

GIULIANI: By politicians, and they're lying about it.

CUOMO: I'm saying that's what it looked like to me. I know you're representing your client.

GIULIANI: Well maybe it looked like that.

CUOMO: I do not mean to defame.

GIULIANI: But it wasn't that. And if people had paid attention to the date, they would have seen that I did it well before Biden was even a candidate for president.

CUOMO: But there's also concern about--

GIULIANI: I didn't want Joe Biden.

CUOMO: --you getting snookered--

GIULIANI: When I found out - can I just complete this thought?

CUOMO: --snookered by these guys. That was part of the concern. GIULIANI: I wasn't snookered by anybody. I've got the documents. I've got the proof, and I've got the witnesses.

CUOMO: Right. But some of this stuff, the 2016 conversation--

GIULIANI: And I can show them to you on tape, if you want. But nobody will play it.

CUOMO: --the 2016 conversation--

GIULIANI: Because they're covering up for Joe.

CUOMO: --between Biden and Poroshenko was used as him saying that he delivered for his kid. This was the same stuff that that guy Derkach, D-E-R-K-A-C-H, who now our government--

GIULIANI: I never - I never used that conversation.

CUOMO: --is saying is the bad guy. Say?

GIULIANI: I never used that conversation.

CUOMO: I know. But why would you even meet with this guy?

GIULIANI: Derkach is no part of my report. My report to the State Department was rendered five months before I even knew Derkach's name.

CUOMO: But why would you even meet with this guy?

GIULIANI: I have nothing to do with Derkach. It has to do with direct witnesses.

I interviewed him, because he had additional information. What he gave me was a - was a document from the Ukrainian government, going back to January of 2017, saying that $5.3 billion in foreign aid is unaccounted for.

CUOMO: Yes, except he is called by our government to be a Russian operative.

GIULIANI: $3 billion of which is American foreign aid. Please, let me finish.

CUOMO: And a propaganda pusher.

GIULIANI: Please! Please let me finish.

CUOMO: Go ahead. All right, go ahead.

GIULIANI: Two people - two people have been - two people have already been indicted by the Ukrainian government.

CUOMO: Right.

GIULIANI: For embezzling about $140 million.

CUOMO: Right.

GIULIANI: The two of them are close associates of George Soros two months ago.

CUOMO: So what?

GIULIANI: They run - they run - they run AntAC.

CUOMO: What does that have to do with anything?

GIULIANI: What it has to do with is the fact that our foreign aid was being diverted to NGOs illegally. That's the document that Derkach gave me.

CUOMO: Yes. But I'm just saying that our government--

GIULIANI: He had nothing to do with Biden, nothing. It had - it had a lot to do with George.

CUOMO: --our government seems to see him differently than that. This is - but I wanted to let you answer.

GIULIANI: I mean--

CUOMO: I wanted to let you answer that question.

GIULIANI: I mean I--

CUOMO: But you know our government sees Andrii Derkach as a guy who should not be respected or trusted and that they think he's a propagandist--

GIULIANI: You know I don't--

CUOMO: --and an operative for the Russians.

GIULIANI: That's OK. They can see him that way. He is not. He doesn't have a single bit of information about Biden.

CUOMO: Yes, that--

GIULIANI: He has no direct evidence about Biden. All the witnesses--

CUOMO: --that seems to be true.

GIULIANI: But he has none at all.

CUOMO: I believe it.

GIULIANI: I rendered my report about Biden six months before I even knew the name Derkach. Derkach is a, at best, he's a hearsay witness who has read documents.

CUOMO: I would - yes, but I'm just saying I would just keep him out of it.

GIULIANI: But he doesn't know anything to ask about Biden.

CUOMO: Of anything that you want people to take seriously.

GIULIANI: And he's never given any information particularly about Biden.

CUOMO: All right, I want to--

GIULIANI: This is a complete--

CUOMO: --I want to ask you one more thing.

GIULIANI: --this is a complete diversion. Yes.

CUOMO: Good, then let's leave him alone.

Again, our memory of this day for me will never change, and your role and your righteousness, and your righteousness of purpose, and what you meant to the country.

GIULIANI: Well I really appreciate that, Chris.

CUOMO: It's just the truth. It's just - if I were to say anything else, I'd be lying. I do want to know, though, don't you--

GIULIANI: Well thank you.

CUOMO: --don't you believe that from now, going forward, because we're not out of this pandemic thing. It's - we're not as bad as we were, but we don't know where it's going to go. Do you believe that--

GIULIANI: I agree. I don't know where it's going to go like anybody else.

CUOMO: --do you believe that this President should be telling people "Wear masks, socially distance. Don't go to crowded situations. Do what you can to keep yourself safe?"

GIULIANI: Well, he certainly says that.

CUOMO: No, he doesn't.

GIULIANI: I think the question of masks, the question of social distancing, I mean, a lot of that depends on where you are, how bad it is there. I mean there are different - there are very, very different situations in this country.

CUOMO: True, but in the places where they have community spread--

GIULIANI: Situations where it's I mean--

CUOMO: --like in Michigan, where he just was.

GIULIANI: --situations where basically it's not even a factor.

CUOMO: In Michigan where he just was, their case numbers are growing at a rate that has the Governor worried about events like this. Should he be holding an event like this?

GIULIANI: Oh no, don't - let's not talk about - let's not talk about the Governor of Michigan, please.

CUOMO: But look, the numbers are the numbers.

GIULIANI: Let's not talk about the Governor of Michigan.

CUOMO: The numbers are the numbers. Let's not bring politics into it.

GIULIANI: Let's not talk about the Governor of Michigan.

CUOMO: Pandemic doesn't have any partisan feelings. It kills us all.

GIULIANI: Oh my God!

CUOMO: The numbers are the numbers, Rudy.

GIULIANI: Oh my God!

CUOMO: The cases are climbing.

GIULIANI: We're going to have to disagree about that, Chris.

CUOMO: Look, but the - there's community spread.

GIULIANI: Chris, we're going to have to disagree about it.

CUOMO: Forget about Whitmer. There's community spread in Michigan everywhere that was relevant to this. And to have people with their kids with no masks in a crowded area, you would do that?

GIULIANI: Chris.

But I don't have all the facts. When I look at the mortality rate, the fatality rate, of the disease now, it is very different than it was three months ago. We're in a different world right now. We're in a world of 1 percent fatality rate, we're less

CUOMO: People are still getting sick.

GIULIANI: --we're in a world then of 4 percent.

CUOMO: They say the numbers have plateaued.

[21:40:00]

GIULIANI: I faced a 10 - I faced a 10 percent fatality rate when I got prostate cancer. I mean these are things you face in life, and you have to move forward. You can't stop your whole economy.

CUOMO: Yes, but you did what you could to beat the cancer.

GIULIANI: Well look - here's a - here's an interesting question.

CUOMO: Go ahead. GIULIANI: Here's an interesting question for economists and historians.

How many people - we had to do it, but how many people did we kill with the shutdown? How many people didn't get diagnosed with cancer? How many people had heart attacks that weren't addressed? How many people committed suicide? How much domestic violence was there? How much depression? I don't know.

CUOMO: Well--

GIULIANI: But a lot.

CUOMO: --I don't know. But I don't know that you're asking the right question.

GIULIANI: You can't just - you can't just do a shutdown--

CUOMO: I don't know that you're asking the right question either.

GIULIANI: --when you got 1 percent mortality--

CUOMO: Because--

GIULIANI: Well I am asking the - there were consequences to a shutdown.

CUOMO: --while they were straining their resources to take care of people it's how many people wouldn't have died--

GIULIANI: There are - there are consequences.

CUOMO: --how many people wouldn't have been sick--

GIULIANI: I have a good friend who runs--

CUOMO: --if this President wasn't pretending that a pandemic was a hoax.

GIULIANI: There are consequences to a shutdown.

CUOMO: How many people would still be with us?

GIULIANI: He never he never said it was a hoax. That's a--

CUOMO: How many people wouldn't be dealing with horrible symptoms? If he'd been straight with us the way you were on 9/11.

GIULIANI: --that's an unfair - that's an unfair comment.

CUOMO: Oh that's an unfair comment?

GIULIANI: I don't - I don't know - I don't know the--

CUOMO: But shutting down being a bad thing is a fair comment? GIULIANI: I mean I'm not disagreeing with the shutdown. I'm just telling you, you got to understand there were - there's other side to it. We killed people with the shutdown.

CUOMO: No.

GIULIANI: Maybe we had to do it.

CUOMO: I think that you saved people with the shutdown.

GIULIANI: But then you got to stop it as soon as possible.

CUOMO: You saved people.

GIULIANI: But you also killed people. You killed other people.

CUOMO: No.

GIULIANI: Not everybody dies of COVID-19, Chris.

CUOMO: No. This was not a situation where shutting down had the risk of killing people.

GIULIANI: And a lot of people die of heart attacks and--

CUOMO: It was about saving people, Rudy, and it still is.

GIULIANI: Well of course it was. Of course, it had a risk. People couldn't get - people couldn't get cancer treatment. People couldn't get diagnosed with cancer.

CUOMO: They--

GIULIANI: Even some cancers--

CUOMO: I have not heard--

GIULIANI: --you miss - you miss a week or two weeks and you're gone.

CUOMO: --I have not heard nor seen a single clinician--

GIULIANI: Really?

CUOMO: --put out anything that says, "You know what? On balance, we would have been better off without the shutdown. We actually shouldn't have done it."

GIULIANI: I didn't say that.

CUOMO: Well but I'm saying but that's a false metric.

GIULIANI: I didn't say we did bad. In fact, I said the opposite.

CUOMO: To say that going--

GIULIANI: Chris? CUOMO: --that having the shutdown--

GIULIANI: Chris, it's not a false metric.

CUOMO: --may have been bad too.

GIULIANI: It's--

CUOMO: Come on!

GIULIANI: Chris, it's something, as a leader, you have to consider before you shut down an entire economy. You got to consider it. If you don't consider it, you're totally irresponsible. You have to consider, if you close down an entire economy, if you say people can't go for elective surgery, sometimes elective surgery is what saves your life.

CUOMO: Right.

GIULIANI: Some people are going to die if you do that.

CUOMO: Yes, I know. But a lot of people--

GIULIANI: That's a decision you got to make. I'm not saying--

CUOMO: 200,000 people died in this country.

GIULIANI: --I believe it was the right decision.

CUOMO: 200,000 people died. We've got millions and millions of cases.

GIULIANI: Well maybe many more would have--

CUOMO: When he was telling Texas and Georgia and Florida--

GIULIANI: --without a - without a shutdown.

CUOMO: --"Good for you, don't be like everyone else," they wound up having catastrophic consequences in those states. That's why I ask you. But Rudy?

GIULIANI: No, they didn't. They didn't have catastrophic.

CUOMO: Catastrophic!

GIULIANI: They didn't have catastrophic consequences. They had a lot of people with the disease.

CUOMO: They had huge spikes in cases.

GIULIANI: And diminishing people dying of it.

CUOMO: Now!

GIULIANI: The number is way down.

CUOMO: Now! GIULIANI: And - people dying of it.

CUOMO: But then it was way up, thanks to him letting it run rampant--

GIULIANI: But it was - it was constantly going down.

CUOMO: --by encouraging people to do stupid things.

GIULIANI: And maybe - and maybe we should remind people that the real source of this virus is China.

CUOMO: Yes, and that's who Trump said he was getting his advice from--

GIULIANI: I mean, we basically--

CUOMO: --about what the China - what the virus would do. Now it's the China virus, it's a bad thing.

GIULIANI: Well until he found out--

CUOMO: But then he was saying "Xi Jinping was doing great."

GIULIANI: --until he found out - until he found out.

CUOMO: "And I'm getting my info from him." Come on!

GIULIANI: Until he found out what was actually going on, and then he closed down China.

CUOMO: Yes.

GIULIANI: And everybody accused him of being a xenophobe.

CUOMO: Yes, and what - well no.

GIULIANI: For a month.

CUOMO: He can be a xenophobe and have done the right thing with the travel.

GIULIANI: For a month they accused him of being a xenophobe.

CUOMO: You know what's happening in China? They're getting back to life now--

GIULIANI: Had he hadn't closed us down--

CUOMO: --faster than us.

GIULIANI: --we'd have another 100,000 deaths.

CUOMO: Everybody's getting back faster than we did.

GIULIANI: So, give him credit for something.

CUOMO: But look, let's end where we started. GIULIANI: Give him credit for something.

CUOMO: I give him credit--

GIULIANI: OK. Why don't--

CUOMO: --for doing the right things, for keeping Tony Fauci.

GIULIANI: --why don't we call it a draw, OK?

CUOMO: No draw.

GIULIANI: Right?

CUOMO: No draw. You win.

GIULIANI: Why don't we call it a draw?

CUOMO: You win because having you on this show--

GIULIANI: I'm tired. It's a long day.

CUOMO: You--

GIULIANI: I had a difficult day, Chris. And I really - and I thank you very much for understanding - understanding that. And I really - I really like the fact that I came on your show tonight. It makes me feel good.

CUOMO: Look--

GIULIANI: Because I really love you.

CUOMO: Rudy, I love you. I love what you did for my City.

GIULIANI: I can disagree with you, I mean you know I--

CUOMO: I love what you did for this country.

GIULIANI: We see the world differently.

CUOMO: That's OK. That's OK. We can argue what happens, as long as we agree that there are facts--

GIULIANI: And I'm so happy--

CUOMO: --that we got to make sense of.

GIULIANI: --the way you covered.

CUOMO: Thank you very much. And you too, you had your own big fight.

GIULIANI: Thank you, Chris.

CUOMO: You're always welcome on this show.

GIULIANI: And I'll - I'll be back now. OK?

CUOMO: Rudy Giuliani?

GIULIANI: Now that we've made the peace, like in "The Godfather." We made the peace.

CUOMO: I know. No more illusions to "The Godfather." I love you, Rudy Giuliani. Thank you for what you did. We'll disagree--

GIULIANI: All right, take care.

CUOMO: --but with decency. You be well, especially on this day, thank you for what you did.

GIULIANI: You too, you too, and to your family too.

CUOMO: Thank you. We'll be back.

GIULIANI: Thank you.

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CUOMO: Former White House Communications Director Anthony Scaramucci is here.

Anthony, thanks for joining me. I know this is a hard day for you and a lot of the people you know.

ANTHONY SCARAMUCCI, FORMER WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: Sure.

CUOMO: And those who you lost. So, God bless their memories and God bless you and your family.

I got three minutes. Give me a mix of how Rudy led and what Rudy thinks of how the President is doing on this. What you think versus the reality of what the Woodward tapes show us.

SCARAMUCCI: Chris, I love the Mayor. You love the Mayor. I'm glad to see him back on your show. He was a savior to the City back then. I'll always remember what he did. I'll always remember what he did for my career. So, I love all that. I just think he's misguided on what the President's doing. And I'll

remind the Mayor that he was reading Roy Jenkins' biography of Churchill when the Towers came down, and it inspired him.

And I would encourage him to go back and read that biography, and he'll see that what the President is doing now is the opposite of what Winston Churchill would do. We need compassion and honesty here.

[21:50:00]

The Woodward tapes are everything that you need to know about this President. It's a Surgeon General's warning label for the future of the world and for America. And I'm astonished that the Mayor doesn't see it the way I see it. But that's OK. I love him anyway.

CUOMO: And look, we could disagree with decency. My point to him is "Yes, that's not what your client does. Your client makes somebody an enemy and basically endorses people trying to seek out violence against them and destroying their families online."

And what I don't get is, Anthony, we always have this same conversation, not us per se, but other people say, "Well this has to matter to his base."

And you and I understand, "No, the base support Trump despite him as a person," because their frustrations, their anxiety, and sense of humiliation by others in the society, it's stronger to them, matters more.

But when they hear that he was telling you not to wear a mask, and go out, do whatever you want when he knew that in those same places it could make them sick, will that still not matter?

SCARAMUCCI: For a lot of them, it won't. Jim Acosta, last night, was interviewing people, and they say that that pandemic is a hoax. They bought into the President's nonsense and the President's lies.

But listen, you know he's vicious. I know he's vicious. I tried to help the guy. He comes after me. He comes after my family. What President would do that, OK? The guy is a disgrace, Chris.

And he's also a bully. And so the bully is not supposed to win in America. And that's why we're rallying and organizing against him to make sure that we send him home.

CUOMO: Now, if this doesn't matter, and things in the swing states are as tight, do you think that the Democrats and how they have dealt with the - everybody should be on the same page about which is that, we should have more equality in this society, the message that "Look at the violence that they think is OK," do you think that could be a losing case for the Democrats?

SCARAMUCCI: Well, I do because the President knows how to tell the big lie. He's telling people that Joe Biden wants to defund the police. He doesn't want to defund the police. But remember the President is the President. He's controlling the

bully pulpit. And so, my message to the Biden campaign, you got to go five times harder on those messages, and let people know that they're going to be safe in the suburbs, safe in the cities.

This is Donald Trump's America, where all this catastrophe is happening in, Chris, and they got to hit that harder, because the President has the bully pulpit, and I'm worried about that, yes.

CUOMO: On May 31st, less than a week after George Floyd, Biden said burning down - "Burning down communities and needless destruction" is not American. So, the facts are there. But Biden has got to make the case for himself.

Anthony Scaramucci, thank you for being with me.

SCARAMUCCI: Thank you.

CUOMO: God bless you and your family.

SCARAMUCCI: You too, Chris, especially on this day, man.

CUOMO: Never forget.

We're coming right back.

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CUOMO: Rudy Giuliani did great things for this City on 9/11. Is he still the same man? That's for you to decide.

But together, we must never forget. 9/11 was death come way too early for far too many. I'm so sorry for so many people. And I wish the survivors and loved ones solace still.

And I will never forget the sites, the sounds and the smells. I was in that hellscape, watching those who could not escape. It was rescues not a moment too soon and, for many, it was too late.

It was ash everywhere. I keep it with me still. This was what was on me and around me. It was everywhere, and on everyone. It wasn't ash. It wasn't moon dust. But it was all too much of this earth. Building and everything else that was in it, pulverized in our eyes,

washed with tears, but never really gone, spread everywhere, on everyone, still found, months later, in places you didn't think to look with eyes that now knew terror and death and despair.

Never forget!

But remember too what came after, how we cried, and dug, and buried, and hugged, and fought, and mourned, and pitied, and paid and patriots all.

We were angry at them, but just as passionate in our commitment to us. There was no color or kind. There was just like-minds just for a minute, streets filled with quiet courtesies, communities making "We" of "Me."

Remember, God bless America replaced the anthem for a minute, as we were open in our collective call for help from above, from below, from anywhere. So many were lost, but new family was found. Must that moment only be made by a bomb?

We need each other now as we did then. Hard times make strong people. In the worst, we see America at her best. It is still true, if we are led to it, and not away. We can make ourselves better, as we did, as we always have. Never forget! Never forget!

That's all for us tonight. Thank you for watching. "CNN TONIGHT WITH DON LEMON" starts right now.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: It's amazing, every single year, when it happens.

You know I still look up and I expect to see those Twin Towers, Chris, and they're not there. And then it's just this reminder of what happened and what used to be. And seeing Rudy Giuliani on, it just really brings it all back.

CUOMO: You know and there really is a Tale of Two Rudys. You will never make me not remember what he did that day for this City, for me. I watched him up close. Bernie Kerik, I watched him up close.

Is that who he is today?

LEMON: No.

CUOMO: In my opinion, no.