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Guidelines for Coronavirus Testing Published on CDC Website were Not Properly Vetted; U.S. Postal Service Prepared to Send 650 Million Masks to Americans to Help Combat Coronavirus Spread Until Plan Discontinued; Joe Biden Holds Town Hall in Pennsylvania; Biden Slams Barr for Likening Virus Lockdowns to Slavery. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired September 18, 2020 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JOE BIDEN, (D) PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Go to that ballgame, treated your kid to go to school.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Joe Biden saying that it is close to criminal the way that he has handled the virus.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What science says is that if you give the virus an opportunity to spread, it will.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One of the major mitigation activities that you can do is to socially distance and to wear a mask.

DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We'll defeat the virus, and next year will be truly, I think, from an economic standpoint maybe the best year of all.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And 200,000 deaths in the U.S. is a reflection of a failing national response.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is NEW DAY with Alisyn Camerota and John Berman.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome to our viewers in the United States and all around the world. This is NEW DAY. Democratic nominee Joe Biden at a drive-in CNN town hall in Pennsylvania.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, (D) PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: I don't trust the president on vaccines. I trust Dr. Fauci. If Fauci says a vaccine is safe, I take the vaccine. Now, we should listen to the scientists, not to the president.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: He talked about vaccines, he talked about health care, he talked about masks. He did make news on a mask mandate, how far he says he can and would go. President Trump for his part is attacking the FBI director for the

FBI's concerns over Russian attacks on the U.S. elections. The president also attacking government scientists over the issue of masks. And there's new reporting in "The Washington Post" that the administration had a plan back in April to send 650 million masks by mail, that's five to every resident. But "The Post" reports the plan was scrapped because there were fears in the administration it might cause a panic.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: So where are we with the coronavirus this morning? They're spiking again in the U.S. -- 30 states are seeing increases in cases. More than 44,000 new cases reported just yesterday. Almost 900 more Americans were killed on Thursday.

The U.S. is nearing the milestone of 200,000 Americans killed. "The New York Times" this morning reports that the CDC testing guidance, it was published, that you'll remember we were quite confused about, whether or not you had to be tested if you were near somebody who came back positive for coronavirus. Well, that guidance was changed against the objection of scientists.

So joining us now to discuss all of this, we have CNN chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta. Sanjay, remember that morning that you were on here, and John and I were scratching our heads, saying what, what is this new guidance from the CDC? You no longer have to be tested if somebody -- I think I remember saying if John tested positive, I wouldn't have to be tested, and we were all trying to figure out what that meant. OK, this morning what have you learned?

SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, we learned that it didn't make sense then, it still doesn't make sense now. It's likely going to be changed today. But the machinations by which this all took place, and "The New York Times" reported this yesterday, my sources have been talking about this idea that these documents -- this document which talked about asymptomatic testing did not originate at the CDC. Even though it was ultimately on the CDC's website it originated at HHS. It was sent to the CDC, at which point it was supposed to go through this vetting process. You have the assistant director of science. You have fact checkers. You have cross checkers. They send it back and forth. They can take a couple of days. My source tells me, I woke up in the morning the next day, and the unaltered, incorrect document was on the CDC's website. It had started the process of being vetted, but never actually completed, and the inaccurate guidance, which we now know, just showed up on the website.

It was something that sources called me and were very, very frustrated by. And again, as "The New York Times" has said, this wasn't the first time. It was a similar sort of story when all of a sudden, the guidance about the importance of reopening schools showed up on the CDC's website, again, a document that did not originate at the CDC, a document that was not fact checked, vetted by the CDC and their scientific community, and just showed up on the website for all public health officials to take as CDC guidance.

BERMAN: Sanjay, I have to say, this is a metaphor for a bigger picture here, which is injecting the politics into science. This is literally injecting a non-CDC document, a non-CDC guideline, into the CDC's page. You are seeing literally politics supersede science here. And that was the theme, I think, last night at the town hall for Joe Biden in Pennsylvania. We heard in the intro to Joe Biden talking about he will trust Anthony Fauci on vaccines, he doesn't trust President Trump. And I think this is part of that.

There's also the discussion about masks, masks something that Joe Biden has called for, that scientists have called for, and that the president is now once again casting doubt on.

[08:05:04]

Biden made a little news last night. He's talked about a mask mandate in amorphous terms, at first suggesting he would issue a federal mask mandate, then backing off. And now he says he can't do it to the states, he can do it on federal land and federal buildings, but he's going to leave it up to governors and ask governors to do it. Listen to what he says.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, (D) PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: What presidents say matter. People listen. I will make it clear what is needed to be done. I cannot mandate people wearing masks, but we've just have been told we should expect another 215,000 dead by January, but if we wore a mask we'd save 100,000 of the lives doing nothing but that. I would make sure that I would call every governor in the country into the White House and say, you should be putting mandates out. And if they don't, I'd call the mayors in the towns and the cities and say, put out mandates. You can save lives.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: It's, again, the contrast between politics and science. You heard Joe Biden there talking about the science. As far as the politics goes, the president held a rally last night with a crowd largely unmasked. The takeaway here, Sanjay?

GUPTA: Well, it was interesting. Dr. Fauci talked about this last week, or maybe it was this week -- the days are running together -- but basically said you have to have the will of the people in lockstep with whatever authoritative powers may or may not exist, but fundamentally it comes down the will of the people. And in most countries around the world, the will of the people have said, yes, we'll put on a mask. That seems like a pretty easy thing to do to save lives, save family members, community members, whatever, make it much more likely that I won't spread this virus.

We're still going in the wrong direction in this country. We, as we talked about so many times, represent not even five percent of the world's population, and have the numbers that you see on the right side of your screen. It's abominable, and I can't believe as we go into the fall now, as schools are opening and we're trying to -- people think that this is in the rearview mirror, that we're still not doing these basic public health measures. They make a difference. How many mornings have been we talking about this now on your program? It feels like just screaming into the void.

CAMEROTA: And Sanjay, another big development this morning, according to "The Washington Post," and now we have seen this internal document from the United States Postal Service, back in April, the United States Postal Service had partnered with the White House Coronavirus Task Force and their plan that they were about to implement was to send five masks via the Postal Service to every U.S. household along with a note, saying this is the best way to stop the pandemic that we're in the middle of. And then that didn't happen. And thank goodness for the watchdog group, American oversight, that through a FOIA request, found thousands of these internal documents that showed that that plan was scrapped. We don't know who specifically kiboshed that plan, but those 650 million masks did not go out to every household.

GUPTA: So a source told me last night that there have been so many people who have known the right thing to do, have sounded the alarm on this, and going back to the middle of February talking about the fact that this virus could be spread asymptomatically and that everything needed to change as a result. And this is what my source said -- every step along the way, this guidance that could have saved 80 percent to 90 percent of the people who died could have been saved if this guidance had been abided by. Every step of the way that guidance had been buried, and then minimized, then ignored, and now ridiculed. That's what's happening.

It's not that hard. The guidance was not that challenging. It could have been done, but it was buried, minimized, ignored, and now ridiculed. So here we are as we go into flu season, still in that same wort of position. Everyone is counting on the vaccine, everybody wants the homerun hit. Even if we get the vaccine, it's going to take time to actually get people vaccinated and protected. We have to do these other basic health measures for some time to come, and we're still not.

BERMAN: Sanjay, thank you very much. Obviously, we're going to learn much more about that as the day progresses.

I want to talk more about from the town hall last night. Coronavirus, the headline, obviously the headline and the most important thing in this entire election. But if you asked me what the second biggest thing that happened in the town hall last night, it was Joe Biden using new language to contrast his upbringing with that of President Trump. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, (D) PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: I really do view this campaign as a campaign between Scranton and Park Avenue. I grew up here in Scranton. We're used to guys who look down their nose at us, looked at people who look at us and think that we're suckers, look at us and they think that we don't -- we're not equivalent to them.

[08:10:08]

If you didn't have a college degree you must be stupid, if in fact, you didn't get to go to the ivy school. We are as good as anybody else, and guys like Trump who inherited everything and squandered what they inherited, are the people that I've always had a problem with.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: So joining us now, CNN political correspondent Abby Phillip. Abby, by means of a fact check, Trump Tower is on Fifth Avenue, not Park Avenue.

CAMEROTA: A different wildly fancy street.

BERMAN: Yes, exactly, exactly. But that was a scripted line, I think one that Biden wanted to land. Why?

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: This is the reason Joe Biden is probably the Democratic nominee, and it's because Democrats by and large believe that Joe Biden -- believed that Joe Biden was the best candidate to execute this message to white, working class voters, because he can talk about his upbringing in Scranton.

At virtually every question last night, he referenced, I know that town. I know that street. Didn't I meet you before? Those are the things that I think that Democrats saw in Joe Biden and believed made him the more formidable candidate to go up against Donald Trump. I think you're seeing some of that in the polling where Biden is starting to improve upon Hillary Clinton's numbers with white, non- college educated voters, cutting into Trump's margins in those areas in a way that will make him a lot more competitive in states like Pennsylvania and Wisconsin and Michigan.

So you're seeing Biden going back to this economic message. But he's also trying to tap in a little bit to a cultural message that's been part of his sort of political DNA over the years, which is to say, I grew up with a working class, middle class family. I want to create the American dream for everyone. And I think that's where -- that's where you see a lot of Democrats saying that's Biden's sweet spot. They want him to be there a lot more often, especially as we head into November.

CAMEROTA: It's just so interesting, Abby, Biden owns that identity. This isn't an adopted identity that he's having to put on. He is from Scranton with blue collar roots. And to Donald Trump's credit, he has convinced voters that he speaks their language, that he speaks -- that demographic of voters, that he speaks those populist, blue collar language. But I thought it was interesting that Joe Biden pointed out he's not self-made. Donald Trump, he's saying, is not self-made. He was given $1 million from his dad. He was raised wealthy. Do you think that there's time to kind of reprogram people's thinking since Donald Trump for four years has so effectively held on to that mantel?

PHILLIP: Yes, a lot of the president's allies call President Trump the blue collar billionaire. That's what they like to call him, because he has this -- for some people it's an inexplicable connection to blue collar, white working class voters even though he grew up wealthy and from a very, very wealthy family. I don't know that you can reprogram that for the president's actual supporters. I think they are locked down for President Trump, that 34 to 37 percent, maybe a little bit more than that.

But there are quite a few voters who are soft Trump supporters who did not like Hillary Clinton four years ago, and those are the people who are somewhat up for grabs. I don't think that there are as many of those people as we would like to think in politics. I think that band is as narrow as it's ever been in American politics. But if those people are out there, those are the folks that I think Biden is trying to pick up by saying I understand you. I see you, and that President Trump is a fraud.

Now, will that message work, we really will have to see, because, frankly, other people have lobbed that against President Trump in the past. I think the difference this time is that the Biden campaign thinks that there is some -- there's some legitimacy. It seems authentic coming from Joe Biden compared to coming from perhaps a Hillary Clinton or other folks in the political sphere.

BERMAN: Again, if you're looking for plans from the Biden campaign, I think they plan to lean into that more. And one other thing that Joe Biden I think will do and has always has done is talk about his own family's struggles. And now he is consistently tying that, Abby, to this article in "The Atlantic" suggesting that President Trump called people who served in the military losers and suckers. Here's a moment from that last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, (D) PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: My son died of cancer. He came home from Iraq. And I have to tell you, it really, really offended me when he volunteered to go there for a year, and he came home because of -- with stage four glioblastoma.

[08:15:09]

And the president referred to guys like my son, he won the Bronze Star, referred to them as losers. Losers. Talk about losers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: You saw sort of rage right there, Abby.

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. Yeah. You could see it in his -- in some ways you almost wondered if he was trying to sort of bring himself back under control a little bit.

This is one of those things that every time I have seen Joe Biden talk about this, these alleged comments in "The Atlantic" you see a flash of anger in him that is genuine. I mean, as he described his son fought overseas.

And also John McCain -- I mean, some of this goes back to John McCain where President Trump is denying that he -- that he made disparaging comments about John McCain when he did so publicly, and Joe Biden and John McCain were friends.

So this is personal for him in a lot of ways, but the broader context I think of a lot of this is not just those comments from President Trump, but also a desire that some Democrats have to see Joe Biden really take up the passion level, the energy level, and to really go after Donald Trump in a very aggressive way to show voters that he is ready and has the stamina and the ability to go toe to toe with this president.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Abby Phillip, great to talk to you. Thank you very much.

So, Joe Biden also challenging Attorney General Bill Barr's controversial comment in which he likened stay at home orders to slavery. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:20:29]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: What Bill Barr recently said is outrageous. That is like slavery. You're taking away freedom.

I would tell you what takes away your freedom. What takes away your freedom is not being able to see your kid, not being able to go to the football game or baseball game, not being able to see your mom or dad, sick in the hospital. Not being able to do the things -- that's what cost our freedom and it's been the failure of this president to deal -- to deal with the virus, and he knew about it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: That's Democratic presidential nominee Joe Biden going after Attorney General Bill Barr for suggesting stay at home orders during the pandemic were akin to slavery.

Joining us now, CNN chief legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin.

That statement from Barr was part of this long, rambling speech and interview, where he really said a lot of things, Jeffrey, that raised eyebrows.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: You know, that comparison is so self-evidently ridiculous. Stay at home orders are difficult for all of us, but compared to other acts in American history whether it's the red scare or McCarthyism or the Alien Sedition Act, you know, the government has done a lot of things that limit civil liberties and limit speech and that hasn't happened at all in this time. So I think everybody can tell it's a ridiculous comparison.

BERMAN: All right, Jeffrey, something very important I think has happened over the last 24 hours and that is there is I think a clear rift between the FBI Director Christopher Wray and the attorney general of the United States, William Barr, on a couple of issues.

One is on Russia. The FBI director testified under oath yesterday, which means he can't lie, and talked about Russia attacking the U.S. election once again, trying to hurt Joe Biden. He says Russia is doing this now to hurt Joe Biden.

If you listen to the attorney general, he spoke to Wolf Blitzer last week, he does everything he can to diminish this. He really does and instead trying to put the focus on China.

So I want you to listen to this very real contrast and know that what you're about to hear from Christopher Wray, he knows what the attorney general thinks about what then he's saying it. So listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIPS)

CHRISTOPHER WRAY, FBI DIRECTOR: We certainly have seen very active, very active efforts by the Russians to influence our election in 2020, primarily to denigrate Vice President Biden.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Russia, China and Iran, which is the most -- the most aggressive in this area?

BARR: I believe it's China.

BLITZER: Which one?

BARR: China.

BLITZER: China more than Russia right now?

BARR: Yes.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: China wants us to lose very badly. And you know who else is not happy with us winning? Russia.

(END VIDEO CLIPS)

BERMAN: That's a big distinction, Jeffrey.

TOOBIN: It is. And, look, we all know that Donald Trump is obsessed with the idea of proving that Russia did not help him in 2016 even though the evidence that Russia did has been overwhelming, it has been overwhelming for years. And what Wray is doing is he is reflecting what the real intelligence is. The director of national intelligence had said the same thing earlier, had said that Russia is trying to defeat Joe Biden.

But, you know, the attorney general is once again acting as Donald Trump's personal representative and lawyer rather than the people's lawyer. And that's been unfortunately the theme of his entire second tenure as attorney general.

BERMAN: You know, and Wray had fascinating testimony on the issue of white supremacy and white supremacist groups. He suggested despite efforts by Barr and the president to say Antifa is the biggest threat in the world right now, Wray said no. It's white supremacist groups that are fuelling the most domestic terror and there was a clear distinction on some of the power that the attorney general thinks he has and likes to use and likes to assert. And again, I want you to listen to the contrast here. This is William

Barr who has called some people who work in the Justice Department preschoolers for their concerns about how he uses his authority. That's what Barr has said and the idea that he says that they work for him.

And listen to who Wray says they work for.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARR: These people are agents of the attorney general. And as I said, FBI agents, whose agent do you think you are?

WRAY: I will say we, the FBI, work for the American people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Again, Jeffrey, these things aren't said by accident by Wray under oath I don't think.

[08:25:01]

TOOBIN: Well, and it's worth keeping in mind that, you know, Christopher Wray has a tenured term as FBI director. And he made -- I'm not reading his mind, but he knows that he is going to be the FBI director after next January and there may be a new president, and I think Wray is trying to lay down the marker that he is -- this is why he has a tenured term because he's independent of politics.

And as he hears the attorney general repeat talking point after talking point and the president, he is drawing a distinction there.

And just about what Barr said. Of course, it's true that the attorney general is in charge of the Justice Department and can veto the decisions of his underlings, including career people, but the point is how he's used that power, over and over again, to help Donald Trump's allies. You know, to get rid of the case against Michael Flynn, to lower Roger Stone's sentence, to reinvestigate the roots of the Russia matter.

It's not that Barr doesn't have that power but how he's using it for political ends.

BERMAN: Jeffrey Toobin, a pleasure to see you any morning. Thanks so much for being with us.

TOOBIN: Indeed, all right.

BERMAN: All right, Jeffrey happens to have written a new book recently and there are a whole bunch of new books about President Trump right now and readers can't stop buying them.

Up next, we're going to speak to a Pulitzer Prize winning book critic who has read 150 of them.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)