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Supreme Court Battle; U.S. On Verge Of 200,00 Coronavirus Deaths; Interview With Sen. Richard Durbin (D-IL); CDC Abruptly Reverses New Guidance On Airborne Coronavirus Transmission, Claims Update Posted Just Days Ago Was In Error; Trump Urging Supreme Court Confirmation Vote Before Election, Says He'll Reveal Nominee By End of Week; GOP Sen. Grassley Signals He's On McConnell's Side After Previously Opposing Moving Ahead On A Vacancy This Year; Biden Slams Trump On Pandemic As U.S. Approaches 200,000 Deaths. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired September 21, 2020 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[18:00:15]

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: We want to welcome our viewers here in the United States and around the world. I'm Wolf Blitzer in THE SITUATION ROOM.

This hour, the U.S. death toll from the coronavirus is closing in on a new and totally catastrophic level, the nation on the brink of 200,000 deaths, as the infection rate is on the rise again, trending up in 28 states right now, more than half of the nation.

At this truly critical moment, the journalist Bob Woodward just told me he finds the president giving himself an A-plus grade on the pandemic to be an embarrassment to this country.

Making matters worse, the CDC has abruptly reversed its guidance on how the virus spreads in the air, claiming an update just days ago was posted in error.

We're also following breaking news on the partisan battle emerging right now over replacing the late Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, a move that will likely impact the Supreme Court and the nation for decades.

Tonight, President Trump says he hopes the nominee he plans to reveal by the end of the week can get a Senate confirmation vote before the November three election.

First, let's go to CNN's Nick Watt in Los Angeles for us.

Nick, Americans are facing another big and very painful number, driving home the enormous loss of life.

NICK WATT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Wolf.

There are a few numbers that have struck me today. Just here in California, we have passed 15,000 deaths. In the Texas public school system, they passed 4,500 cases since the school year began. And 226 days since the first death on U.S. soil, the first confirmed death, we are about to hit a truly horrific tally.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WATT (voice-over): Very soon, we will pass 200,000 people killed by COVID-19 in America, more than double what the president predicted in the spring.

DR. CARLOS DEL RIO, PROFESSOR OF GLOBAL HEALTH, EMORY UNIVERSITY: We may be at 300,000 by New Year's. This is not necessary. This is not deaths that need to happen. We need a national strategy to avoid this from happening.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're rounding the corner, and we have done a phenomenal job.

WATT: No and no.

COVID-19 cases are, in fact, on the rise. There's the upturn on the graph. We're averaging more than 40,000 new cases a day again.

DR. MEGAN RANNEY, RHODE ISLAND HOSPITAL: And we're worried that it's only going to continue. This is the beginning of our second wave.

WATT: Texas went from mid-summer hot spot to curve crusher, but now an upturn. Fewer than 22,000 people just attended the Cowboys' season opener, but excitement trampled all over social distancing.

Why are numbers now rising in more than half of states? Could be Labor Day mingling, colleges going back, people moving indoors as the outdoors gets chilly.

DR. PETER HOTEZ, BAYLOR COLLEGE OF MEDICINE: We may be in for a very apocalyptic fall, I'm sorry to say.

ADM. BRETT GIROIR, U.S. ASSISTANT SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES: A vaccine as early as possible, even in a few million doses, will be a godsend in terms of outcomes, hospitalizations, morbidity, and deaths.

WATT: Meanwhile, the FDA, which would approve any vaccine and also the CDC, now has to run everything through the HHS. The press release reads, in part: "No regulation issues from any part of HHS without the approval of the secretary and the White House."

RANNEY: It implies that HHS is going to be serving a censorship function. Our science, our approvals have never had to go through HHS in order to get released to the general public.

WATT: Friday, the CDC finally confirmed that COVID particles can float in the air, makes this virus even more infectious. Today, the CDC took that guidance down, claiming: "A draft version of proposed changes to these recommendations was posted in error to the agency's official Web site." DR. LEANA WEN, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: The fact that they retracted this, even though this is common scientific knowledge at this point, one has to wonder what's behind it. Was there political pressure?

WATT: Here's a well-informed opinion on, how long is this tunnel? How far away is the light?

BILL GATES, CO-CHAIR, BILL AND MELINDA GATES FOUNDATION: The end of the epidemic, best case, is probably 2022. But during 2021, the numbers, we should be able to drive them down if we take the global approach.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WATT: Now, just going back to that CDC guidance that was posted and then taken down, one federal official now tells us, this was not political. This was a mistake. This was purely the CDC. Somebody hit the button and shouldn't have.

Now, apparently, they are currently revising that guidance. Unclear when they will repost it. And, Wolf, it's going to be interesting to see, when they do repost it, will they have changed it?

[18:05:02]

BLITZER: We shall see. Nick Watt reporting for us, thank you.

Let's go to President Trump right now. Tonight, he's ignoring accusations of hypocrisy in the new Supreme Court fight that's unfolding very dramatically right now. And he's once again denying the reality of his pandemic response.

Our chief White House correspondent, Jim Acosta, is joining us.

Jim, so what are you learning, first of all, about the president's Supreme Court selection process, which is so, so critical?

JIM ACOSTA, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, that's right, Wolf, it really is.

And we were told just in the last several minutes that President Trump met today with Judge Amy Coney Barrett, one of his top contenders for the seat left by the late Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg.

The president told reporters earlier this afternoon he's already spoken with some of the contenders on that short list, and will continue to do so over the coming days. As the president and Senate Republican leaders plot strategy for replacing Ginsburg, the U.S. is on the verge of passing that grim milestone of 200,000 deaths from the coronavirus.

Even as the U.S. is leading the world in COVID-19 deaths, the president is giving his administration a -- quote -- "A-plus for his handling of COVID-19."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) ACOSTA (voice-over): In a stunning departure from reality, President

Trump is giving himself the best possible grade for his handling of the coronavirus, even as the U.S. death toll has now reached a heartbreaking 200,000 lives lost, still more than any other country.

The president is insisting the U.S. is somehow nearing the end of the pandemic, when there was no basis for saying that.

TRUMP: On the job itself, we take an A-plus. We're rounding the corner on the pandemic. And we have done a phenomenal job, not just a good job, a phenomenal job.

ACOSTA: The president is increasingly isolated in his own echo chamber when it comes to the virus, with top advisers falsely telling the public COVID-19 is under control.

LARRY KUDLOW, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL ECONOMIC COUNCIL: The USA is in a much better position, thankfully. We have regained control of the virus, both the cases and the fatalities, both the cases and the fatalities.

ACOSTA: But that's not true. Economic adviser Larry Kudlow said something similar in February:

KUDLOW: We have contained this, I won't say airtight, but pretty close to airtight.

ACOSTA: Democrat Joe Biden is trying to convince voters it's time for a new president to crush the virus.

JOSEPH BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Trump panicked. The virus was too big for him. He just wasn't up to it. He froze.

ACOSTA: With 43 days until the election, the president is hoping to galvanize conservatives by seizing on the sudden opening at the Supreme Court left by the late Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg.

TRUMP: I'd rather have it before the election.

ACOSTA: Mr. Trump is dismissing Ginsburg's dying wish that her seat be filled by the winner of the 2020 election, falsely claiming that's a phony plea cooked up by Democrats.

TRUMP: I don't know that she said that, or was that written by Adam Schiff and Schumer and Pelosi?

ACOSTA: Democratic Congressman Adam Schiff fired back: "Mr. President, this is low, even for you."

Sources tell CNN the top two favorites for the open seat appear to be Judges Amy Coney Barrett and Barbara Lagoa, both appointed by Mr. Trump. Barrett is revered by conservatives and seen as reliably anti- abortion, while Lagoa would give Mr. Trump the chance to place a Latina on the high court.

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): The Senate will vote on this nomination this year.

ACOSTA: But the issue puts Republicans in a tight spot, as they blocked former President Barack Obama's selection of Merrick Garland for an open seat in 2016, complaining it was an election year. Now some of those same lawmakers face accusations of hypocrisy.

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): I want you to use my words against me. If there's a Republican president in 2016, and a vacancy occurs in the last year of the first term, you can say, Lindsey Graham said, let's let the next president, whoever it might be, make that nomination, and you could use my words against me, and you would be absolutely right.

SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R-FL): I don't think we should be moving forward on a nominee in the last year of this president's term. I would say that if it was a Republican president.

ACOSTA: Democratic vice presidential nominee Kamala Harris argues the solution is to wait.

SEN. KAMALA HARRIS (D-CA), VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Whoever is elected should be making a decision about who sits on the United States Supreme Court, period.

ACOSTA: Besides abortion rights, a new, more conservative Supreme Court could also strike down Obamacare, even though the president has yet to produce his own health care plan.

TRUMP: I do want to say that we're going to be introducing a tremendous health care plan sometime prior, hopefully prior to the end of the month. It's just about completed now.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ACOSTA: And we want to take you out to Ohio right now, where the president is holding another campaign rally, this video from just moments ago. Take a look at this, Wolf.

Once again -- we seen this before. It's happening again this evening, Trump supporters crowding into a rally space, not wearing masks, not using social distancing, and, of course, putting themselves at risk for contracting the coronavirus.

Wolf, the president said earlier today he would give himself an A-plus for his handling of the coronavirus. But you would have to say these crowds are not getting an A-plus when it comes to protecting themselves from this dangerous virus.

Once again, you can see at this rally this evening they're not wearing masks, they're not protecting themselves by social distancing -- Wolf.

[18:10:00]

BLITZER: Yes, it's so dangerous.

Jim Acosta, you would think the president, if he were going to do the right thing, he would encourage and he would ask all those people attending these political rallies, please, please wear a mask, try to social distance.

It's important. It potentially could save your life and other lives as well.

ACOSTA: Right.

BLITZER: So, unfortunately, he doesn't do that. And that is so sad.

Jim Acosta, thank you very much.

Let's discuss this and more with Dr. Peter Hotez, professor and dean of tropical medicine at Baylor College of Medicine.

Dr. Hotez, how important would it be for the president to simply tell all those thousands of people who gather at these political rallies that this is a critically important issue, just do something simple, wear a mask, and try to socially distance?

HOTEZ: Yes, he's -- you're absolutely right, Wolf. He's missing an opportunity to save lives.

We have learned a lot about this virus since it emerged in the United States. And among the lessons learned is, this virus is transmitted not only by droplet contact, like many viruses are, but also by aerosol, by creating -- go flying in an aerosol.

These are small droplets, less than five microns in size. Not many viruses do this, actually. Measles does it. Chicken pox virus does it, and now COVID-19 has joined that list. And that's why you need masks, to prevent the release of that virus in your exhaled breath, and why you need mass also to reduce the likelihood you will acquire it.

It's as simple as that. This is a virus that can linger in the atmosphere for long periods of time. As those small one-to-two-micron droplets evaporate, then it leaves those droplet nuclei up in the air.

And this is standard infectious disease knowledge about other known pathogens.

BLITZER: All right. Yes, it would be good if he wore a mask once in a while himself to set an example to his supporters, his followers out there, how critically important, lifesaving potentially it could be.

We're on the verge, Dr. Hotez, of crossing 200,000 American deaths over the past seven months. That's more than any other country in the world.

Take a step back for us. How did we reach such an awful milestone?

HOTEZ: Well, there there's four or five missteps that I can identify, and others have as well, that can account for this.

One, we missed the entry of the virus from Europe. While the president was busy focusing on the travel ban from China, this virus entered from Europe into New York City, and probably in the first week of February, maybe the second week. Transmission went on unnoticed for weeks. And it caused that horrific, catastrophic epidemic in New York City in March and April, and when you heard sirens all the time night and day.

And that first peak of the epidemic caused around 100,000, 120,000 deaths. And then we didn't learn from that. The White House never responded. They never launched a national program to prevent the resurgence.

And it was both predicted and predictable. We had a massive resurgence across the Southern part of the United States, including here in Texas, throughout the summer in July and August. And that resulted in another 80,000 -- 70,000 to 80,000 deaths.

And you know what? The White House still hasn't learned anything from this, because, against all medical advice, they're opening up schools in areas of high transmission. And this is now called going to cause a third peak, which may even be worse than the other two. And this is going to happen all through the fall.

And this is why we will get to 300,000 deaths sometime around the election, all of this prevented and preventable. It's a White House that seems to have no understanding or any intellectual curiosity about infectious diseases and has done nothing to create that national response.

Their response has been limited to back up FEMA support for ventilators and that sort of thing. And that's where it ends. And this is -- for me, it's just heartbreaking to see that we have now endured probably the single greatest public health catastrophe this country has ever seen in the last 100 years.

BLITZER: Yes, it's so sad indeed.

Dr. Hotez, thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for all that you are doing as well.

Just ahead: Do Senate Democrats have any hope of blocking President Trump's U.S. Supreme Court nominee? I will ask the minority whip, the Judiciary Committee member Dick Durbin. You see him live. He's standing by. We will discuss.

And we will also break down the CDC's stunning reversal of its new guidance on how the coronavirus spreads in the air. Was politics, politics, politics at play?

We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:19:00]

BLITZER: We're back with all the breaking news on the fight over filling the U.S. Supreme Court vacancy left by the death of Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, the president saying he'd prefer a confirmation vote before the November 3 election, enraging Democrats. Joining us now, the second-ranking Democrat in the U.S. Senate, Minority Whip Dick Durbin. He's also a member of the Judiciary Committee that will eventually hold hearings on a Supreme Court nominee.

Senator, thanks so much for joining us.

So, Mitch McConnell, the majority leader, just promised on the U.S. Senate floor that President Trump's nominee will get a vote, and President Trump says he wants to announce his nominee by this weekend.

What's your reaction to these late-breaking developments?

SEN. RICHARD DURBIN (D-IL): Well, I can just tell you, I have been in the Senate for a number of years. There's a flood of emotions on the floor of the Senate on the Democratic side, real feeling of sadness over the loss of Ruth Bader Ginsburg, all the tributes that we will talk about, what she achieved in her life for the rights of women and men, and the question of whether it's all at stake now, whether the Supreme Court will change so dramatically that her legacy will be lost to future generations.

[18:20:05]

And, of course, there are strong feelings about what Senator Mitch McConnell, the Republican Senate leader, has done to the United States Senate.

It is just beyond description to think that he has walked away from traditions and precedent and from the civility that has been part of the Senate as long as I have belonged here, or as long as I have been part of it here, and instead has said, I'm going to get a political result here at any cost. I'm going to embarrass my colleagues on the Republican side and make them reverse themselves from statements that they made clearly four years ago. I'm going to violate precedent in the Senate. I'm going to get my way one way or the other.

BLITZER: Have you spoken with any of your Republican colleagues, let's say like Senator Mitt Romney, or Cory Gardner, or Chuck Grassley, all of whom you know, and, at least publicly, they're apparently still undecided?

DURBIN: No, I haven't. That opportunity may present itself.

But we have two Republican senators, Murkowski and Collins, who have said they will not be party to the strategy by Mitch McConnell. We need two more. People say back home, well, just go there and stop everything. Make sure that they never do this.

That isn't how the Senate works. Whether there's a government functioning, whether the House is in session, the Senate has its rules and procedure. And Mitch McConnell knows them well.

He's going to move us forward toward his goal, whatever it may be, on his timetable, whatever it may be, with a nominee that we don't even know at this moment. And I just know that he's determined to get this done, even at great damage to the Senate.

BLITZER: So what's your message to Republican senators who might still be on the fence right now?

DURBIN: I would say to them, remember that moment when John McCain came to the well of the Senate and gave the no vote, which stopped the efforts of the Republican side to eliminate the Affordable Care Act.

It was an act of courage, which we expect from a man of his stature. Who will show that courage today on the Republican side and step up and say, we should do the right thing, even if it's unpopular in our own political party?

BLITZER: At the end of the day, do you think Democrats will be able to find enough Republicans? You need four, at least, assuming all of the Democrats are in line. You need four Republicans to join you in blocking this nomination. Is that doable?

DURBIN: It's possible. I'm not going to say it's doable. That sounds like it's just something that will take a little bit of time.

But, really, there have to be Republican senators now who are thinking long and hard about their own legacy in the United States Senate. I know, if they say, we're going to hold this up, as Murkowski and Collins have, it's a great political risk, but it can be done.

And there are those who may think it's more important to have your own conscience on your side than to have all of your colleagues standing behind you.

BLITZER: As you know, some Democrats are openly threatening to try to pack the Supreme Court with additional justices next year if Joe Biden were to win the White House and Democrats were to take the majority in the Senate.

Would you agree with that?

DURBIN: No, Wolf, let me tell you, I'm not going to get engaged in that speculation.

What we need to do is convince the American people that this just isn't another political fight, a cussing match in Washington. The future of the Supreme Court is important for every single family, when you think of the millions of families that have insurance under the Affordable Care Act, the protection we all have if there's a member of your family with a preexisting condition.

All of that is at stake here in a decision by the Supreme Court that is imminent. It's a matter of months before it's handed down. So, people across America have to understand it.

And when you hear all these glowing tributes, as we should, to Ruth Bader Ginsburg and what she has done on behalf of women across America, remember, all of that is at stake with this selection of the next Supreme Court nominee.

It really comes down to that. This is critical.

BLITZER: So, what's your bottom-line prediction? What's going to happen over the next 43 days before the election?

DURBIN: Hard to say.

There was an argument made that we couldn't vote before the election without hurrying it, ignoring some of the precedent, perhaps ignoring hearings. Who knows? Mitch McConnell at this point may decide there will be no hearings on this nominee.

There's usually an FBI background check. Who knows? Senator McConnell and Donald Trump may decide not to do that as well. You just don't know what they're going to do at this point in a reckless effort to fill this vacancy.

BLITZER: Senator Dick Durbin, thanks so much for joining us.

DURBIN: Thank you.

BLITZER: Just ahead: The CDC takes down its new guidance on how the coronavirus is spread in the air. We're going to tell you what you need to know about this decision.

Also, we're going to hear from Joe Biden out on the campaign trail, as he's accusing President Trump of panic and paralysis in his response to the coronavirus.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:29:10]

BLITZER: We're following breaking news, as the U.S. approaches the very grim milestone of 200,000 coronavirus deaths, more than any other country in the world.

There are new questions tonight about why the CDC abruptly removed guidance on infections from airborne transmission it posted on its Web site just a few days earlier.

CNN's Brian Todd is looking into all of this for us.

So, Brian, tell us what you're learning.

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, we're told by a federal official that this was simply a clerical error, someone hitting a button that they shouldn't have.

But it becomes a problem tonight, given the CDC's recent missteps in issuing public guidance on the virus.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TODD (voice-over): Confusion tonight from America's top agency in charge of containing the spread of coronavirus over what to tell Americans about how the disease can travel through the air. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has just taken down new

guidance it had posted just on Friday, guidance which said that coronavirus could be spread not just by coughing, sneezing or talking through larger droplets, but also in tiny aerosolized droplets from just breathing or talking normally.

[18:30:14]

And the new guidance had said, those aerosolized droplets could remain in the air longer and travel distances beyond six feet from activities like choir practices, fitness classes and talking in restaurants.

But tonight, that new guidance is gone, taken down, the CDC says, because it was only a draft and was posted in error.

DR. CELINE GOUNDER, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: They were likely coming under pressure yet again from political interests because of what the repercussions of acknowledging aerosol or airborne spread might be.

TODD: A federal official familiar with the situation tells CNN, the retraction was not due from political pressure from the CDC's overseer (ph), the Department of Health and Human Services or from anyone else. But the official said the retraction was made to allow the CDC to better explain that aerosol transmission can occur but isn't the primary method of transmission. HHS has not responded to CNN's inquiries today.

CNN and other news outlets have reported recently that top officials at HHS and elsewhere in the administration have previously exerted pressure on the CDC to control the messaging over the virus and its spread.

GOUNDER: I think from the beginning with coronavirus, we've had mixed messaging on everything, from masks to whether certain drugs or treatments work, to whether we should be social distancing or whether lockdowns are needed. And I think this is yet another nail in the coffin of our disastrous response to coronavirus in this country.

TODD: Experts say new public health steps might be required if the government does decide to warn the public that coronavirus germs can hang in the air longer and spread further from tiny aerosols.

GOUNDER: Six feet becomes a bare minimum at that point. And some of the reopening plans that are currently underway, whether that's reopening schools or indoor dining need to be seriously reconsidered.

TODD: One expert now says he wouldn't go to a gym without wearing a mask and goggles and agrees that indoors are critical in the aerosolized transmission of the virus.

DR. CARLOS DEL RIO, EPIDEMIOLOGIST, EMORY UNIVERSITY: If you are in a closed environment with poor circulation, if you are in a crowded environment, like a typical place I think about is a bar, if you are you in a closed environment, lots of people, that is where I worry about aerosols.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TODD: This is not the first time the CDC has issued important guidance on the virus only to go back on it. In August, the agency said that people who had been in a contact with a COVID-infected person for at least 15 minutes but who have no symptoms don't necessarily need to get tested unless they are particularly vulnerable or if a doctor recommends it. Well, just days ago, the CDC rolled all of that back, stressing that anyone who has been in contact with an infected person should get tested. Wolf?

BLITZER: They certainly should. All right, Brian Todd reporting, thanks very much.

Let's get some more on an all of this. CNN Medical Analyst Dr. Leana Wen is joining us. She is an emergency room physician, a former Baltimore City health commissioner. Dr. Wen, thanks so much for joining us.

So if the virus is primarily being spread through these tiny aerosols that can travel much farther than six feet, does that mean some activities that we previously thought were safe could actually be rather risky?

LEANA WEN, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: Well, this is the thing, Wolf. The guidelines that were issued by the CDC over the weekend were really important because they are in line with what many scientific and public health communities have already known based on growing evidence. We know that it is not just through coughing or sneezing, it's not just these large droplets but also these much smaller droplets that could be carried to longer distances.

And so some of the new guidelines included, saying six feet as a minimum, have a mask in addition social distancing, in particular, indoors, and I think, very importantly, looking at ventilation, looking at air purifiers is something else that we should be doing. So really important implications based on science.

And then to see that the guidelines were then withdrawing without clear explanation, it really makes one wonder about whether there was political interference. And I think at this point, Wolf, we really need to hear directly from our top scientists rather than from the politicals because this is life-saving information that we need to get out to everyone.

BLITZER: If what they released on Friday the aerosols is accurate, what activities would be the riskiest right now?

WEN: Well, we've already known this, Wolf, and it's what we have talked about. So anything indoors where people are in close proximity to one another where you cannot stay at least six feet apart, although probably at this point, we should be looking at more like ten feet apart. Those are the riskiest.

And then also if you have an enclosed space where there is not good ventilation and if people are there for prolonged periods of time, that would also be very dangerous. So think about bars where people are speaking loudly. There isn't social distancing. People are not necessarily wearing masks. That's why there are so many super-spread events that have been tied to indoor settings like that.

[18:35:01]

But it goes beyond that too.

We're also talking about classrooms and planes and people gathering at dinner parties indoors. This is why hearing directly from the CDC and having that guidance really has huge implications and I wish the CDC would have a press conference instead of just having guidelines issued on their website and they're retracted suddenly, they should be explaining this to the American people.

BLITZER: This reversal has caused so much confusion out there. The CDC, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, was so widely respected in the medical community and by the public at large. Have you ever seen anything like this before involving the CDC?

WEN: Not at all. It is truly extraordinary. And the amount whiplash that we in public health have experienced in the last several weeks, it hurts the credibility of the CDC at a time when we can at least afford it. This is the premiere health institution in the U.S., if not, the world, known for scientific independence, for its rigor, for its extraordinary work that is separate from politics. And I fear that it is hurting the credibility of the CDC not only for its COVID-19 response but for so much else. And there is lasting damage that could go on for many decades to come.

BLITZER: It certainly true and it's so, so often. Dr. Leana Wen, as usual, thanks so much for joining us.

WEN: Thank you.

BLITZER: All right. Just ahead, we're going to get the latest on the U.S. Supreme Court nomination process. CNN has learned that one of the leading contenders was actually at the White House today.

Plus, blistering criticism from Joe Biden on the president's handling on the coronavirus, saying that President Trump panicked and failed to act.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:40:00]

BLITZER: We're following breaking news of the president's push to replace the late Supreme Court jusice, Ruth Bader Ginsburg ASAP despite the election being just 43 days away.

Let's bring in our Chief Legal Analyst, former federal prosecutor, Jeffrey Toobin. He is the author, by the way, of the best-selling book, True Crimes and Misdemeanors, the Investigation of Donald Trump. There you see the book cover. Also with us, our Senior Legal Analyst, the former U.S. attorney, Preet Bharara.

Jeffrey, Mitch McConnell is vowing to bring President Trump's nominee to the floor. Take a look at some of the potential replacements for Justice Ginsburg. They are all staunch conservatives. What would their confirmation mean for the balance of power on the court for the decades potentially that come?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: Just an enormous, enormous change, because Ruth Bader Ginsburg was the leader of the court's liberal wing and that means she was in favor of protecting the woman's right to choose in Roe v. Wade, she was in favor of affirmative action. She was a strong voice in support of the Affordable Care Act. She believed that Citizens United case, which essentially deregulated American politics was incorrectly decided.

All of those decisions would likely go in the opposite direction with a very substantial conservative majority if one of these justices is confirmed leaving only three liberals, Sotomayor, Breyer and Kagan, on the court.

BLITZER: Yes, all of these potential nominees, they're either in their late 30s or 40s. They could be on the Supreme Court for the next 30, maybe even 40 years.

And, Preet, the implications would be enormous. What could this mean specifically in the short term right now for Obamacare, which is currently hanging very much in the balance?

PREET BHARARA, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, it's not looking great for Obamacare. As Jeff points out, there are long-term implications on all of these issues that were important to Justice Ginsburg. But there are immediate complications and implications too and Obamacare is one of them. As people, I think, know, that case winds its way through the courts, ended up in Supreme Court, it was going to be heard and will be heard a week after the election, which is very soon.

And so one question is, will there be a new justice in place by then and that obviously will be what the fight will be about over the coming weeks. But there is one of two possibilities. Either there is a new justice installed and the likelihood would be that that justice would be a good particular conservative mindset and would not uphold the law, in which case, it would be bad for Obamacare or someone is not installed and it is 4-4.

And in that circumstance, because Ruther Bader Ginsburg is gone, even with Justice Roberts voting in favor of the law, a 4-4 vote would basically reinforce what the underlying decision, which struck down key provision of Obamacare.

So at the end of the day, if Biden gets elected and you have this bad result for those folks in the Supreme Court, you could obviously introduce a new law. But as for this case and the absence of Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, it's not good.

BLITZER: We just got a statement, Jeffrey, from Senator Chuck Grassley. He is a key member of the Judiciary Committee, someone who hasn't made a public statement. He is now saying this. He said, so make no mistake, if the shoe were on the other foot, Senate Democrats wouldn't hesitate to use their constitutional authority and anything else at their disposal to fill this seat. It sounds like that he is going to go along with the majority leader, McConnell.

TOOBIN: Grassley, who was chairman of the Judiciary Committee, said categorically that there should not be a Supreme Court confirmation hearing during the final year of a presidency.

[18:45:06]

This act of hypocrisy which is joined by the entire Republican Party in the Senate is really one of the most brazen in American history. I mean, Grassley -- Chuck Grassley is chairman -- now the current chairman, Lindsey Graham, they are going 180 degrees from what they said four years ago and they are doing it in plain sight. You know, and here -- the only question is, does anyone care about this hypocrisy because it's certainly obvious.

BLITZER: Yeah, and, Lisa Murkowski, and Susan Collins, two Republican senators, they are saying hold off at least for now.

Jeff, you have an important new article in the "New Yorker Magazine" about the possibility that the President Trump challenges -- challenges the results of the election in court if the confirmation process moves quickly. The president's pick to replace Justice Ginsburg could cast potentially a crucial vote that makes or breaks his election. Give us a preview of how all this might play out, because your article is so important.

TOOBIN: You know, what's so remarkable is how many different tentacles there are, how many possibilities there are.

Bush v. Gore was just about Florida. But there are disputes now, there are literally 200 lawsuits pending around the country about various issues relating to voting.

And let me just give you one example of the issues that are out there. Most people don't know this, but under the Constitution, a state legislature can decide to award the electoral votes in its state to a candidate of its choice regardless of what the voters.

So if you have contested elections in North Carolina, in Wisconsin, states with very active and very conservative Republican majorities, they could simply say, you know, this election is too chaotic, we are awarding our electoral votes to Donald Trump. That's the kind of possibility that exists, and people need to start focusing on it now because it is a real possibility.

BLITZER: Let me get -- Preet, what's your quick response? What do you think?

BHARARA: I think that that's going to be a real problem. I'm not prepared yet to worry about particular decisions, but I think the Biden team has done a good job of putting together a good team to make sure that they're litigating all these things all around the country. It could have the effect of further politicizing the court and having people, you know, worry about the court which has usually been one of the most admired of the three branches of government.

And it has taken a big hit since Bush v. Gore, and it would take an extremely I think more terrible hit if it plays along the lines of Jeffrey's been describing.

BLITZER: Yeah. Preet and Jeffrey, guys, thank you, thank you so much.

Just ahead, as the U.S. nears that grim milestone of 200,000 coronavirus deaths, Joe Biden says the president panicked in his handling of the pandemic.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:52:56]

BLITZER: As the U.S. death toll from the coronavirus nears 200,000, Democratic presidential nominee Joe Biden ripped President Trump's handling of the pandemic at a campaign stop earlier today.

Our political correspondent Arlette Saenz is joining us. She's following the campaign for us.

Arlette, Biden was speaking in Wisconsin where you are, a state that Trump narrowly won in 2016.

What was Biden's overall message to voters there?

ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Joe Biden kept his focus squarely on the coronavirus pandemic and the economy. He talked about the need to defend the Affordable Care Act and pre-existing conditions as the U.S. is nearing 200,000 deaths due to the coronavirus pandemic. And he once again slammed the president for his handling of the crisis.

Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: The virus was too big for him. All his life, Donald Trump has been bailed out of any problem he faced. With this crisis, a real crisis, a crisis that required serious presidential leadership, he just wasn't up to it. He froze. He failed to act. He panicked. And America has paid the worst price of any nation in the world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SAENZ: Now, Biden was also trying to directly appeal to Trump voters. He came here to Manitowoc, a county that Donald Trump won by 22 points back in 2016, just eight years after President Obama won this county by eight points. Biden trying to talk to those Obama turned Trump voters saying that he will listen and respect them as he is trying to win in this all important battleground of Wisconsin -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Yeah, 43 days to go, but millions of Americans already are voting.

Arlette Saenz in Wisconsin for us, thank you.

And we're going to have more news just ahead.

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[18:59:06]

BLITZER: Finally tonight, we honor some of the nearly 200,000 people in this country killed by coronavirus.

Robert Herron Jr. of Mississippi was 65 years old. He was an R&B musician before becoming a Baptist minister. He married his childhood sweetheart Katherine (ph). They had two children and five grandchildren and were looking forward to more time together after her retirement and 43 years of marriage.

Sidney Shaer of New York was 87. Karen, one of his three daughters, says he was a devoted husband, father and grandfather who loved the Red Sox, playing tennis, and telling stories. He was known for hosting a Thanksgiving extravaganza for more than 50 friends and family members every year.

May they rest in peace and may their memories be a blessing.

I'm Wolf Blitzer. Follow me on Twitter and Instagram @WolfBlitzer, you can always tweet the show @CNNSitRoom.

Thanks very much for watching.

"ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" starts right now.

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