Return to Transcripts main page
Cuomo Prime Time
Trump Again Tries To Cast Doubt Election Will Be "Honest"; Trump Invokes Harry Reid As SCOTUS Battle Ramps Up; Trump Claims White House Can Override FDA's Attempt To Toughen Vaccine Standards. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired September 24, 2020 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST, CUOMO PRIME TIME: Allow or maybe even cause disorder and, indeed, invite carnage if this election is not to his liking.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: We want to make sure the election is honest, and I'm not sure that it can be. I don't - I don't know that it can be with this whole situation, unsolicited ballots. They're unsolicited.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: He says the word "Honest." But I do not think he knows what that word means, not just from his own behavior, but what he is talking about with voting. We have no reason for suspicion that mail- in ballots are any less safe than any other kind of voting.
Now, the Republican-controlled Senate, in the face of this apocryphal statement by him, OK, this incendiary, toxic statement by a president of their Party, what did they do?
They unanimously passed a resolution today to state the obvious that the Republican Senate is committed to the orderly and peaceful transition of power called for by the Constitution.
Yes, that's your job. But your job is also to correct the corrosive crap coming out of Trump's mouth. That's your job. That's your oath.
Republican senators, Republican Members of Congress, this is a moment that will be remembered for a long time. You know your districts. You know your states. You know they offer mail-in ballots routinely. You know you have protections and procedures that make fraud statistically irrelevant that make it better again, often better than in-person voting.
Literally, nine ballots that we'll talk about more with our first guest, came up, seven of them were for Trump. They were flagged. Maybe they were mishandled. They had to be corrected. And now, this scandal? How can these Republicans say nothing to defend our democracy? You
refuse to come on this show, other shows. You pretend you didn't hear the President. You allow the DoJ, the Department of Justice, to be a runaway partisan apparatus, Trump's private investigator.
Well know this. You are Trump's, too. What you ignore, you empower. And nothing that is happening will be forgotten. You will never erase what you said and did during this time and what you failed to say and do. No one can miss it. You are complicit.
Thankfully, Trump's own FBI Director said today, there is no evidence of a national voter fraud effort by mail.
Remember, Trump put together a Commission to explore his 2016 win, those voter fraud theories that he had. That Commission had to be disbanded because they found nothing. Do you know how rarely that happens?
Now, he knows he could lose, and that's why he is concocting nonsense to sow fear about this vote. Why is he scared? Scenes like today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(VIDEO - CROWD CHANTS "VOTE HIM OUT" DURING PRESIDENT TRUMP'S VISIT TO LATE U.S. JUSTICE RUTH BADER GINSBURG MEMORIAL)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: That's the real public. No MAGA-manipulated rally. No safe space of adoring fans willing to risk their health to pack themselves in to make you feel good. That didn't feel good, I'm sure. He was visiting the casket of RBG, and I'm sure that that made him most mournful.
But know this. This president is trying to set us up for trouble, not just lying about our process, a process that he did almost nothing to secure from the Russians and other interference. But now he wants you to think he's concerned about its safety and security. He's concerned about nothing other than his own fate.
Now, here are the unanswered questions. Is the Trump campaign making moves on state legislators to steal electors and flat-out ignore or bypass the popular vote if he doesn't like it? There is toxic talk and it is a warning.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Let them send it in and let them go vote.
I think it's going to be the greatest fraud ever.
The Democrats are trying to rig this election.
I think it's going to be a rigged election.
(END VIDEO CLIP) CUOMO: He is using campaign apparatus. The question is what is it doing? Is it really reaching into all these aspects of the election that we're going to talk about tonight?
[21:05:00]
Exhibit A, in Texas, Trump's allies created one set of rules for older voters, who are more likely to back the President, while making it tougher for everyone else.
In Florida, the voters said they wanted ex-felons to have the right to vote. The people there voted. That's what they wanted. Republicans in the state legislature said "No."
Trump has made it harder for Americans who are overseas, including the military, to vote.
Now, all this is before you get to the fact that going to a poll on Election Day, let's be honest, depending on where you live, and more and more places in this country, it could mean putting yourself at risk. So, the necessity for a safe way to vote makes a way that we already have even more attractive and important, voting by mail.
So, Trump has been after these ballots from jump, why? Because the less turnout, the better for him. He doesn't want that scene at RBG's memorial to become a reflection of the population of this country, the majority of this country, not a silent majority, but a majority he is very interested in silencing.
He has no proof that mail-in ballots are a problem. And yet, he had his handpicked Postmaster General starting manipulation of the one government service that's in the Constitution, the U.S. Post Office, so much so that federal judges, on both coasts, had to force the Post Office to do more to allow for better voting.
Even just requesting an application from a Trump campaign office, in some places, means it comes wrapped in the President's campaign propaganda. But you know what? I'm OK with that. I'm worried about the other things. If you can get a ballot at all, that's the real problem.
Trump and his allies are done purging voter rolls. Once that happens, now let's see, who's been thrown off wrongfully? All the appeals will never be done in time for any election. How many requests are being rejected for a technicality?
Then there is the question of who's on your ballot? We've seen Republicans trying to help everybody, from the Green Party, to Kanye West, get on ballots in the hopes that votes will be siphoned off from Joe Biden.
Once you make your choice, there is the question of getting it mailed back in time, whether it's Ohio Republicans rejecting a request to use money they already have, to prepay return postage on absentee ballots and, like I said, you have judges ordering the USPS to prioritize ballots and prepay overtime, prepare for this. The Trump campaign has fought against giving you other options as well, like more secure drop boxes. Why would you want fewer places for people to exercise the franchise of their vote? Why would POTUS claim that speed is more important than accuracy?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I also don't want to have to wait for three months, and then find out that the ballots are all missing, and the election doesn't mean anything.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: Where does that hypothetical come from? Wait three months? When has that ever happened? And find out the ballots are all missing? When did that ever happen?
So, why is his campaign fighting to keep states from getting a jump on counting? If you want it to be done, in a reasonable amount of time, as soon as possible, we all do, why are you fighting against that?
At the same time, trying to make sure that any vote postmarked by Election Day, but shows up late, you know, if the USPS doesn't get it right, what you do when you're damnedest, to make sure it is more likely than not, those have to be tossed out.
The need for an accurate count is going to matter more than ever this year. Already, three key primary states, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Michigan, the number of ballots rejected in this year's primary process is almost the same as Trump's margin of victory in 2016. I wonder why!
It's a big part of why many of you don't want to risk it, right? God forbid, you go through the trouble of getting a ballot and an election where everybody is so passionate out there and then they don't count it.
We know from states that are already doing early voting, many of you say "I still got to vote in person. I have to make sure it counts." But on what day? Trump has already tried and failed to delay the actual Election Day, remember that?
"Maybe we should wait? Why wouldn't we do it sooner?" He didn't like that idea. He wanted to buy time. That's why he's advocated for open voter intimidation in the form of armed guards stationed at the polls. No chilling effect there!
[21:10:00]
All of this is before you get to the millions of dollars his campaign has spent on standby, or has money on standby, to fuel an army of lawyers and, on standby, to contest the results in any state that they think will help them, or his flat-out acknowledgment that this is why he's racing to lock in his conservative, super majority on the Supreme Court.
Listen to him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: It's a scam. It's a hoax. Everybody knows that. So, you're going to need nine justices up there. I think it's going to be very important.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: He is now allowing his people, closer to the Russians, than he did in 2016.
Remember, then, the Russians were reaching out to the nobodies, "Coffee Boy, George Papadopoulos," as they called him around Trump. That's all they said he was, "Coffee Boy." But that sounded massive warning systems in our government, just that.
Now, we've got this guy, Andrii Derkach, who Trump's own Treasury Department calls a "Russian Intelligence Officer" feeding not just Trumpers, but maybe his own lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, propaganda, the same propaganda that shows up in the President's own Twitter feed.
The scariest part is Derkach seems to have convinced Rudy Giuliani he's legit.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: But you know our government sees Andrii Derkach as a guy who should not be respected or trusted and that they think he's a propagandist--
RUDY GIULIANI, PRESIDENT TRUMP'S PERSONAL ATTORNEY, (R) FORMER MAYOR OF NEW YORK CITY: You know I don't--
CUOMO: --and an operative for the Russians.
GIULIANI: That's OK. They can see him that way. He is not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: So, our Intelligence apparatus is wrong and Rudy is right. No big deal!
Because the Trump campaign doesn't care how it wins. They don't care that they're recycling stuff from somebody who's known to be a Russian propagandist, and that it just happens to be the same kind of propaganda that they're putting out through their troll farms and other ways to smear Biden.
No coincidence, why? Because they want to get to the same place. Why didn't they care about Russia in 2016? Why don't they care about foreign interference? Why did he tell you he would take dirt on an opponent from anybody? Because that's his reality. Rules are for fools. It's the motto of his life.
Not only is the President getting help from the Russians, he is actively helping them hurt us, personally spreading their propaganda and saying stuff like this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: You won't know the election result for weeks, months, maybe years after. Maybe you'll never know the election result.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: His own FBI, just yesterday, warned he shouldn't say things like that because that's what our enemies want us to think about our own democracy. Wrap your head around that, the FBI warning the President, "Mr. President, you are saying what our enemies are trying to plant in people's heads."
Welcome to today. A nation that has depended on the leaders at the top to keep us safe, now must question those same leaders the most.
It is once again left to us, we the people, a free media, to safeguard our rights, and to be vigilant, to speak truth to power. That is the only way we will form a more perfect union. That notion is no longer quaint. It has never mattered more than it does right now.
I want to show you something, a reminder of who we really are and what this country is supposed to be about.
We are not an autocracy. The flag you should be waving should not be a Trump flag. It should be an American flag, all right?
It's not about Biden flags and Trump flags. This is not going to be their country. It's our country. And what we want most, no matter who wins, is a peaceful transfer of power if one needs to come to pass.
Example of what we're supposed to be. George H. W. Bush loses to Clinton in ugly race, OK? A lot of you may not remember it the way the older of us do.
But what did he do in '92? He didn't throw a tantrum. He didn't question the legitimacy of the results. And I guarantee you, they weren't perfect. He didn't refuse to leave.
Bush left a beautiful letter for his successor on the day of the power transfer that said in part, "You will be our President when you read this note." He underlined "Our." It goes on, "I wish you well. I wish your family well. Your success is now our country's success. I am rooting hard for you. Good luck. George."
Am I lionizing George Bush? No. That's the way a leader is supposed to act because what leaders say matters.
[21:15:00]
There is actual cause for concern when it comes to some ballots in one of the most critical battlegrounds. This isn't about hiding from the reality. We want to expose the reality, expose the problems. They just have to be real. So, here is what I want to start with tonight. The issue is so-called naked ballots. What is that? You didn't ask for one but they send you one.
The State's Attorney General for Pennsylvania, Josh Shapiro, joins me now.
Mr. A.G., thank you.
JOSH SHAPIRO, ATTORNEY GENERAL OF PENNSYLVANIA: Good to be with you.
CUOMO: So, the context of the concern is not that it was just a handful of ballots, nine ballots. Seven of them were for Trump, so not that widespread. I don't want to exaggerate the context.
I want to exaggerate the concern, if anything, which is, your primary you had 37,000 rejected mail-in ballots. The Trump margin of victory in 2016 was about 44,000 votes. So, every vote in your State counts.
You had so many kicked out in 2020, why should it make the voters there and the people watching all over the country concerned that your process is too easy to screw up?
SHAPIRO: Yes. Well, Chris, first off, I think it's important that people take a deep breath and examine the facts here. You kind of conflate two different situations. So, let's talk about both for a second.
In the primary, which was really the first time Pennsylvania was doing vote-by-mail, many other states had done it earlier, there were certainly some issues with counties having to learn the process and figure out exactly how the ballot issue and the mailing issue is to work.
Let me demonstrate. It's actually pretty simple the way it works. And it's not controversial at all.
CUOMO: Go ahead.
SHAPIRO: Here is a ballot. This is what someone at home is going to get in order to vote in the general election.
You choose your candidates. You fold it up, and you stick it in the secrecy envelope. That's the second ballot or the second envelope. And the final envelope is the envelope you use to mail it back. You sign the back of it and you send it to your local county election office.
Why does this secrecy ballot matter? Because our votes are secret in this country. And we want to make sure that the voter who votes from home, whether for COVID or whatever the other reason is, has their ballot be secret when it goes back. This is really just a matter about educating our voters in Pennsylvania about how to do this process.
Now, you raised another issue about what happened with those seven ballots or eight ballots or nine ballots in Northeastern Pennsylvania. First and foremost, again, let's take a deep breath and look at this. This is a matter about ballots from the primary, not from this general.
And I, for one, am comforted, and I think the people of Pennsylvania, indeed the people across this country should be comforted in knowing that law enforcement is looking into it that we're doing our jobs together, federal, state, and local partners trying to examine what the issue is.
And I think you'll hear more from the United States Attorney as to what really was going on there. There is a big difference between clerical issues and criminal matters.
The problem we have right now, and you alluded to this at the outset, is that we're at this fever pitch because the leader of our country is trying to create chaos and sow doubt right here in Pennsylvania.
And Chris, there is a strategic reason for the President doing this. He is trying to make people feel powerless.
CUOMO: Absolutely.
SHAPIRO: Make them feel--
CUOMO: But that's why we got to jump on the situations, Mr. A.G. You said clerical is not the same as criminal, 100 percent right.
SHAPIRO: Yes.
CUOMO: These ballots are about holdovers from the primary, 100 percent right.
SHAPIRO: Right.
CUOMO: I did not mean to suggest they're about the general election, and thank you for making the clarification.
SHAPIRO: Yes.
CUOMO: So which was it? Was this a nefarious problem or is this a paperwork problem that you're looking at with these ballots?
SHAPIRO: I think you're going to hear more from the U.S. Attorney on that. I'm not going to get ahead of him.
But what I am going to say is this is what law enforcement is supposed to do is carefully look at a situation, and then ultimately provide facts to people that they can rely on and they can trust.
The problem we have right now is we have a president that's creating this chaos and making it hard for people to trust. And again, as I was just saying a moment ago, the chaos he's creating is designed to make you feel powerless.
Yet, in this country, Chris, when it comes to election time, the people have the power, not the president. The people are the ones who get to go to the polls, or vote by mail, and determine the future direction of our democracy. And I think what's important is that we try to drown out the noise--
CUOMO: I'm with you.
SHAPIRO: --on what the President keeps saying.
CUOMO: That's why I had you on.
SHAPIRO: And focus on doing our jobs.
CUOMO: That's why I had you on, Mr. A.G. If I just wanted to play the speculation game--
SHAPIRO: There you go.
CUOMO: --I wouldn't need you. But I just want to be clear about what they're looking at in your State.
SHAPIRO: Yes.
[21:20:00]
CUOMO: So, when the DoJ says that it's investigating potential issues with mail-in ballots being in Pennsylvania and that they revealed several were marked for Trump, nine ballots, seven were for Trump, are they looking at ballots from the primary or the general?
SHAPIRO: The issue of those handful of ballots in Luzerne County are ballots from the primary, according to the U.S. Attorney. Has nothing to do with the general election.
CUOMO: Then why are they looking at them now?
SHAPIRO: I think that's a question that needs to be directed to the U.S. Attorney or to DoJ. But what--
CUOMO: But what do you think it is, seeing how I got you here. Take a deep breath and tell me why you think that is.
SHAPIRO: Look, I'm not going to speculate on what the U.S. Attorney will find. But here's what I will say more broadly about the DoJ and about the President.
It is highly reckless, I believe, to inject speculation and inject fear in people's minds on any investigation, I certainly know this, as the Attorney General, but particularly when it comes time to voting, a personal and special and unique experience that every American has that they want to be able to know that they can trust this process.
And DoJ has to be a part of helping alleviate those concerns, as I believe the U.S. Attorney is trying to do. Get to the bottom of these issues and focus on the power that the people have to choose the direction of this country by choosing its leaders.
CUOMO: I'm with you. And obviously, why does it matter? Pennsylvania matters. It matters everywhere. But FiveThirtyEight-- SHAPIRO: Yes.
CUOMO: --projects that there's a 31 percent chance yours will be the state that serves as the tipping point of this election, so extra attention.
SHAPIRO: I think that's right.
CUOMO: And I appreciate you coming on to discuss this as the top law enforcement official in your state during this important time. Mr. A.G., thank you very much.
SHAPIRO: Good to be with you.
CUOMO: All right, be well.
All right, so what did we learn there? Well you got to look, you got to press. You got to ask the questions. You can take a deep breath before you do it. It is not about panic. It's about poise and persistence.
But they're looking at ballots from the primary? Why is it being fed to us as if they're having problems with the general election vote? Isn't that the way it came across? He says "No." Squares with what the actual facts are. Got to stay on top of this stuff, and we will.
With Trump and Co. forging ahead with the Supreme Court nomination 40 days before the election, Democrats are raising hell. But Trump says they should take blame for changing the rules in the Senate years ago. "You will rue the day," this happened.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: It was Harry Reid.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: Go ahead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: It was Harry Reid who made this all possible. Thank you very much, Harry. I hope you're enjoying your evening.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: What does Harry Reid think about that, that description of the nuclear option? Did that pave the way for this? Let's ask him about where we are, why we're here, and the concerns of the last Senate Majority Leader, next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.
(END VIDEO CLIP) [21:25:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: Obama, Biden, Schumer, Pelosi, all the Democratic leaders were used to hearing the President attack. Well tonight, Trump redirected his aim, thanking another Democrat, former Senate Majority Leader, Senator Harry Reid, for making his life easier.
Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: But they want to pack the court. You know what that means? They want to put on a lot of justices. These are things that are just horrible. I guess we could do that, too, right? We could do that, too.
(CROWD SHOUTS "YES!")
TRUMP: But remember, it was Harry Reid that made this all possible. You know, they're angry at us.
Listen, Chuck, Cryin' Chuck, you know what Cryin' Chuck is? Chuck, every time you complain, remember, it was Harry Reid, your person in charge. He had your job before. It was Harry Reid who made this all possible. Thank you very much, Harry. I hope you're enjoying your evening.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: Now, of course, he is not going to get it exactly right.
But for context of history, in 2013, Reid, and other Democrats, voted to change long-term Senate rules eliminating the 60-vote threshold for Executive branch and Judiciary appointments.
And then, when Mitch McConnell became Senate leader, he followed suit with the nuclear option for Supreme Court nominations, OK?
So, Harry Reid didn't create what we have today. The issue is did he open the door to it? McConnell certainly thought so then, and now. He warned Harry Reid at the time, "You will regret this." This was his follow through 2016.
Here to respond to the President's comments and weigh in on much more of importance, frankly, is former Senator Harry Reid.
Mr. Leader, welcome to PRIME TIME. Good to see you.
SENATOR HARRY REID, (D) FORMER MAJORITY LEADER: Good to see you. I enjoyed the first part of your show. But what I want to say is this.
Mail-in ballots go back to the Revolutionary War, to the Civil War, War of 1812. We've been voting by mail back in days of the Revolution, so that's nothing that's new.
And I would be happy to respond to your inquiry about changing rules.
CUOMO: Let's deal with where we are first, Harry, and then we'll go back to how we got here.
REID: OK.
CUOMO: We had the President today say again, "All right listen. I don't know about any peaceful transfer of power. Let me see how it works out, because these unsolicited ballots, these mail-in ballots, this is a disaster, should never happen. So, I got to see what happens first before I know whether or not the Democrats steal this."
What do you think of that message? What kind of peril does it impose on us?
[21:30:00]
REID: Donald Trump knows he is going to lose the election fairly. He is behind in every poll. This can be a change election. He is going to lose big time. Biden is going to be elected. Pelosi's going to build upon her margin in the House. We're going to take the Senate.
So, he knows that. So, he is flailing. When in doubt, raise your arm, wave your arms, scream, and shout. That's what he is doing. He has no chance whatsoever to be president unless he figures some way to cheat.
CUOMO: So, let's take a look backwards. But before I do that, I care about this too much. I know how we got here. I know what your role was and I know what it wasn't. So, if I were more concerned about it, I would be jumping on it.
But what happens here though, Harry? Think about it. I mean we've never dealt with anything like this before.
November 3rd, as you know very well, we don't know dispositively who wins the election on Election Day. You got to have the electors, and these - do their selection, certification by the Secretary of State, all the counting of the absentees. If it's a yawning margin, in certain states, we make a prediction based on the probabilities.
But what happens this November 3rd, if it's tight, and we don't know anything? What happens in the ensuing days, maybe weeks?
REID: I'm not here to boast about Mitch McConnell, but I thought his statement today was terrific, where he said there is going to be a smooth transition, come 1st of the year. I thought that was commendable for Mitch to do that.
CUOMO: Hold on a second. The guy who in 2016 made an impassioned plea that as a matter of principle and duty we cannot seat a Supreme Court Justice because we must not impose on the democratic principles of the people's will, you are now banking on him to do the right thing if the election is a little off?
REID: Well I - all I did, I said I appreciate his statement today and I do.
What they've done with the Supreme Court is done everything but tie their arms with jujitsu. They have - he and the Chairman of the committee, the Judicial Committee, it's just terrible what they've done. I can't believe that they are such hypocrites.
They both said, Lindsey Graham and Mitch McConnell, we are not going to have a president choose - we're not going to have a president, who is not in power choose the next-up Supreme Court Justice. They want to wait till the new election.
Well, they're still trying to do that. Even though, they're tied up, as I said, they don't know what they're talking about.
CUOMO: You were there. You know the history better than I. Mitch McConnell told you, at the time, when you removed it for the Executive Judiciary - and Judiciary appointments, "You're going to regret this sooner than you think."
In 2016, when that happened, did you regret the move you had made earlier?
REID: Absolutely not. Let me explain just very briefly.
Obama had been elected president. And they set out to do two things. Number one, he would not be re-elected and anything Obama tried to do, they would oppose.
For example, for the first time in history of this country, they filibustered the Secretary of Defense, who by the way was a Republican, Chuck Hagel. They filibustered everything.
We had the D.C. Circuit, the second most important court in the country, at seven vacancies. They wouldn't allow us to fill them. The National Labor Relations Board, they made it so you couldn't even have a meeting there.
So, Obama was in a position, where he was trapped and, as a result of what we did, what I did, we changed the rules to say that this isn't going to happen anymore.
And as a result of that, we were able to get all of his cabinet officers filled, sub cabinet officers filled, D.C. Circuit, we got that taken care of, and in the process we got the Affordable Care Act passed, and the most substantial change in Wall Street, in the history of the country, the Dodd-Frank bill.
So, that's why we did it, and I have no regret. It was the right thing to do. And, by the way, it is not the first time that rules have been changed. They've been changed lots of times, but it was time to do it again. CUOMO: But what do you make of the allegation that you set the stage for this? And the proof of it is McConnell told you, without saying it that this is the way it was going to hit, if you did it then. And now, here we are. He needs a simple majority to put people on the court forever.
REID: What if we hadn't done this? And for anyone that thinks McConnell wouldn't do what he's doing right now, anyway, we got that London Bridge is there, not far from Las Vegas, we'll sell it to you again.
CUOMO: You think he was going to do it anyway even if you hadn't changed--
REID: Of course.
CUOMO: --the 60-vote rule.
REID: Of course. And in the - but keep in mind - keep in mind, what we got done by changing the rule.
[21:35:00]
Obama's presidency is something that will be written about for decades to come, as a result of the good things he was able to do, and we did it as a result of my changing the rules.
CUOMO: Do you think that if the Democrats get into power, in the Senate, they should change the rules again, and expand the court, or do other things to undo or create advantage?
REID: Well, I think that Senator Schumer has been very smart in saying that everything is on the table. I think everything should be on the table. Trump's going to no longer be president.
And I think, as I've indicated earlier, we're going to have a really a strong margin in the House. We're going to have a Democratic Senate. And I think Senator Biden is going to - or should say President Biden is going to have to make a decision what he wants to do because it would be up to him, frankly.
CUOMO: Have you ever felt worse about the way things can go than right now? I'm not talking about Democrat/Republican.
REID: No.
CUOMO: I'm talking about the nature of where we are as a people.
REID: Chris, I have to tell you that I am - being a product of - having spent 34 years in Congress, and even was back there, when I was going to law school, being a Capitol cop, I can't imagine, in my worst dreams, nightmares, having anyone like Donald Trump doing anything he can to denigrate the country.
That's what he is doing by this ballot situation. That's what he's doing by denigrating John McCain. John McCain, he is a legend, of course. But one thing we always
remember about his legislative career. The difference between Obamacare being knocked out by Trump, and not being knocked out by Trump is John McCain, coming to the floor and said, "No, thanks."
They want to get rid of Obamacare. Why? Why? Pre-existing get coverage (ph) millions of people would have no insurance. What in the world are they thinking?
CUOMO: What do you say to your former colleague Mitch McConnell? They watch the show a lot. What's your advice for him right now or what's your hope for him?
REID: My advice to him, he comes from a state that is famous for a lot of great legislators. And his career is not going to be based, shouldn't be based on being a lap dog for Donald Trump, which I'm sorry to say, he has been.
And the Republican senators are very - I'm very disappointed. They should stand up to this man. But none of them do. They're afraid of him. And they should not be afraid.
I can't - I just - I can't - you know, the John Chafees of the world, Danforths, Hatfields, these are Republicans who would stand up for the country. The Legislative branch of government is equal to the Executive branch of government. Democrat - Republican senators should realize that.
CUOMO: Senator Harry Reid, Mr. Leader, thank you for coming on the show. It's good to have you.
REID: Watch every night, Chris. Thanks.
CUOMO: You're part of a very exclusive group. Harry Reid, thank you.
We'll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: Why does the President want the judge? Well legacy but also leverage. He believes if he gets another conservative on the court, it will help him stay in power. Listen. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: It's a scam. It's a hoax. Everybody knows that. So, you're going to need nine justices up there.
I think this will end up in the Supreme Court, and I think it's very important that we have nine justices.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: Ben Ginsberg knows about deciding elections in the courts, specifically the Supreme Court. He was a key lawyer for Republicans in Bush v. Gore back in 2000.
Counselor, thank you for joining again.
BEN GINSBERG, VETERAN REPUBLICAN ELECTION LAWYER: Thanks for having me, Chris.
CUOMO: Let's start with the basic assertion and then go to the poison process.
The basic assertion "Unsolicited ballots, naked ballots, mail-in ballots, disaster, rife with fraud, can't do it right, Democrat hoax and fix, you know that. You're a Republican," true?
GINSBERG: Well, not so true. There is a body of evidence, but it's a really small body of evidence that's been collected on fraudulent ballots over the years. And it is far too thin, just isolating cases of fraud to make the allegation, the assertion that our elections are fraudulent or rigged.
CUOMO: Would you vote by mail-in ballot?
GINSBERG: Yes.
CUOMO: Would you recommend others?
GINSBERG: As does he, as does the President.
CUOMO: As does the President, and as he is asking people to do so in Florida.
So, help me understand the legal construction here of argument. He says it's a crap show right? You can't do it. Unless in Florida and North Carolina, he says, "Well, those are good governors, the Republicans."
Do you believe that this is a partisan interest?
GINSBERG: No. I've spent a lot of time, over the years, with state and local election officials.
And even if the person at the top is somehow elected as a partisan, which happens in some states, nonetheless, they all take very seriously the duty to have of free and fair election. So no, I don't believe it's a partisan process.
CUOMO: You think that there is a bona fide, a good faith basis for the President's conjecture or do you think that this is as naked a political malice move as it smells?
GINSBERG: It depends on the conjecture.
Part of what he is saying about universal ballots, which Nevada and New Jersey just put into play this year, as soon as their legislature turned Democratic, I think he's got a case about how that's sort of a naked power play. Nevada is the state he cares about winning.
CUOMO: Right.
[21:45:00]
GINSBERG: When it comes to talking about the results overall, being fraudulent or rigged, then that seems to me to be a political theory that he is - that he is trying to unveil but it still isn't clear what the end game is, how that actually ends up working for him.
CUOMO: Well look, in Pennsylvania, there is all this hubbub about the Feds investigating ballots. They're primary ballots. They're not general election ballots they're looking at. We just had the A.G. on the show. So, that's a little bit of a misdirection play. And the end game seems to be what he just said, let's take him at his
word, just for argument's sake, that he wants to get his own judge on there, so if it goes to the Supreme Court, there is a better chance he wins.
Do you like that kind of suggestion about the Supreme Court?
GINSBERG: No. And I think a - I think a couple of things.
First of all, it puts Republican senators who today repudiated the notion that you shouldn't have a peaceful transfer of power in the position of then voting for the ninth justice that the President had also said today was an integral part of whatever his plan is going to be for the election. So, I think that that turns out badly.
CUOMO: I think if it's going to have an implication, isn't there a concern that without RBG on the court that you will have different outcomes in voter suppression cases?
GINSBERG: Well, I'm not sure - I'm not sure that that's true.
Remember, it is still now a 5-3 Republican majority. And I understand that the President is upset with the Chief Justice for some votes he made on non-election cases, but it's still a Republican majority, 5-3.
And the other thing is, before the President thinks that just by appointing his Justice and additional justices to the Republican majority, remember that he went in asking for absolute immunity against a subpoena from the New York City D.A.
CUOMO: And he didn't get it. GINSBERG: And lost that case 9-nothing.
CUOMO: Yes.
GINSBERG: So, I'm not sure that the justices, whether Republican or Democrat aren't going to call balls and strikes on any case.
CUOMO: That was a - that was a real meatball though, in terms of the balls and strikes analogy.
Ben Ginsberg, thank you very much for putting your mind to what matters. Appreciate you. The best to you and the family.
GINSBERG: Thank you, Chris.
CUOMO: All right.
GINSBERG: You too.
CUOMO: We'll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:50:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: Did you hear what the President said about the FDA's push for tougher vaccine standards? Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Well, I'll tell you what, we're looking at that, and that has to be approved by the White House. We may or may not approve it. That sounds like a political move.
I think it's a - I think that was a political move more than anything else.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: First of all, how do you feel about him having say over whether or not things are tested safely or not by the FDA?
Putting that to the side, what he's talking about, in no small irony, is the FDA considering more safety guidelines because, remember, put it through the processer of "What's good for me, what's good for me, what's good for me," he doesn't want more because more means more time.
A source says that the guidelines would likely require companies to wait two months after giving test subjects the second dose of the vaccine that you need to do to test it before they can apply for the Emergency Use approval.
Remember, Emergency Use approval is already a shortcut. That would, of course, dash Trump's hope for a potential pre-election vaccine, which would be fugazi anyway, because it's not like we're going to have it in time for all of us before the election. It's not going to happen.
So, what does he do? He claims he can override the FDA, claims they're paying - playing politics.
What does the FDA Chief say about it? This.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. STEPHEN HAHN, FDA COMMISSIONER: Our experts who know about vaccines will make this determination, and it will be only based upon the science and the data. Not politics. That's my pledge.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: Let's bring in top public health expert, Dr. Leana Wen.
Good to see you, Doc.
DR. LEANA WEN, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST, FORMER BALTIMORE HEALTH COMMISSIONER, ER PHYSICIAN, PUBLIC HEALTH PROFESSOR, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY: Good to see you, too, Chris.
CUOMO: Is the FDA right or can the President say, "Speed it up, Jack?" And he'll say, "Yes, boss."
WEN: Actually, the President and HHS, they do have authority over the FDA. So, it could be done. It would be unprecedented, but it's possible. Then we have to think about the consequence of what would happen.
What if the FDA says, "We're not ready to give Emergency Use Authorization," but the President says "Let's do it anyway." Who is going to take this vaccine?
I'm in the group that would be eligible to get this under the Emergency Use Authorization, as a frontline provider. But I don't know other doctors and nurses who would say, "Sure, the FDA said "No." The President said "Yes." But I'm going to stick out my arm and get this vaccine."
And I'm certainly not going to be recommending the vaccine to my patients unless it's gone through the rigorous process, a process of approval for safety and efficacy. Speed should not be the driving factor here and certainly not political expediency. CUOMO: All right. So let's talk about two reasons why. The first one matters most because what we're talking about that can come at the cost of all deliberate speed, unintended consequences, side effects, whatever you want to call it.
What can go wrong with a vaccine that even if it's just a one in 100 side effect, it's not one you want out there?
WEN: Yes, so there are some rare but potentially very dangerous side effects. We've even seen this in the AstraZeneca trial, where there is this reported reaction of inflammation of the spinal cord.
There are some other possible reactions, including potentially if you get COVID, you could have a vaccine that can make that - the disease that you get from Coronavirus even worse.
Now, these are extremely rare, and I don't want to frighten people about it, but this is just to say that's why we need to do the safety tests.
If there is a rare reaction, 1 in 1,000, it might sound, "Well, who cares if it's 1 in 1,000." But if you're giving this to 300 million people, then we're talking about 300,000 individuals, who were previously healthy who could get that reaction.
CUOMO: Now, there's another political overlay, Doc.
WEN: That would erode people's trust.
CUOMO: People's trust. Perfect. Thank you, for the segue.
[21:55:00]
Because you're one group, you could take it, frontline clinician. But the people you need to take this are the minority populations because they're getting hit hardest by the disease, and they hear that it's being rushed up, and now they want to use them as a bunch of guinea pigs.
What could that do to the trust?
WEN: Yes, that's exactly right. These are populations that have already faced many issues before, with discrimination, with being experimented on, unethically, illegally.
I want to be able to tell my patients that this has gone through the strictest, scientific approval processes. And if that's not done, then we're essentially subjecting patients, all across the country, in an uncontrolled experiment.
The single most important thing that the FDA can do, right now, is to vow to the American people that they will make all the data and all the science completely transparent, and that way scientists who are external to the FDA can also review those data.
And I know that I, myself, I want to look at those data before I take the vaccine or recommend it to anyone to take it, too.
CUOMO: He's thinking "Me." We've got to think "We."
Dr. Leana Wen, thank you very much. Best to the family.
WEN: Thank you, Chris.
CUOMO: We'll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: Thank you for watching. "CNN TONIGHT" with D. Lemon, major star, right now.
DON LEMON, CNN HOST, CNN TONIGHT WITH DON LEMON: I was listening to your conversation with the Doctor, and I had Andy Slavitt on, two nights ago, and he told me, he said the President can override the FDA if he wants to.
