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Cuomo Prime Time
Trump's New Threat To Sow Election Chaos: "We May End Up In A Dispute For A Long Time"; H.R. McMaster: Trump's Comments "Damaging" To Our Democracy; Lawyer For Breonna Taylor's Boyfriend Calls For Grand Jury Transcripts, Evidence To Be Released. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired September 25, 2020 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Now, I don't know, you know, with this ballot situation, it's you're not going to see - you're not going to see it November 3rd.
(CROWD LAUGHTER)
TRUMP: Democrats are playing games. You see that the - you see they found ballots in a wastepaper basket. They found ballots dumped in a stream.
With me, we may end up in a dispute for a long time because that's the way they want it, but we're going to end up winning. That's for sure.
(CROWD CHEERS)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: The truth is he's trying to poison as many minds as he can, so that if the polls turn out to be right, and he does lose, he can cause more chaos.
Now, I know, his words are often a waste of time, but color me reactionary, I think they belie real efforts by him, his cronies in our government, and his campaign, to disrupt our democracy. And we are being able to show you more and more of this.
And even if you just take his words, as outrageous as they are, but if you look at the actions and his members of his Party know what's going on here, and yet, they are mostly silent.
In a sky that is almost entirely blacked out, we find one lone star, a Governor who wants to speak truth to power.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. CHARLIE BAKER (R-MA): Mail-in ballot - balloting has been with us forever. And that peaceful transfer of power is what the people of this country rely on, when they go to vote. It is appalling and outrageous that anyone would suggest for a minute that if they lose an election they're not going to leave. Period!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: So, Trump, of course attacked Governor Charlie Baker. Why? Because if you're not for Trump, you're not a Republican anymore. And you know what? I think the President has a point there.
In 2016, remember this, he said it was wrong for a judge to be seated so close to an election. He said it to me on my show.
Now he says, tomorrow, he needs to do what he said was wrong and nominate a Justice, why? Because he says he needs as many conservative judges on the Supreme Court as possible to have his back if he loses.
Multiple senior Republican sources tell CNN, the White House is indicating that Amy Coney Barrett, Judge of the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals is the intended nominee.
Senate Democrats, now say, they're going to press, whomever Trump's pick is, to commit to recusing themself if the High Court hears a case that could impact the outcome of the election.
Do you really think any nominee of Trump's is going to agree to something like that if they want to stay a nominee of Trump's? Come on!
And there is much more that you have to focus on tonight. There is an "Attack the vote" campaign by this President and his people, and we can show it to you. You just heard him say there, "These ballots, trash, found in the trash, found in a stream."
What stream? Here's what we know, OK? And we have an update for you tonight. Nine military ballots from abroad, sent to Pennsylvania, were improperly discarded by a third-party contractor who was new to the work. You know who says that? I'll tell you in a second.
Trump's DOJ blasted out that seven of those votes were for him.
Now, that's an unusual move by a Department of Justice, OK? They don't usually talk about their in-process investigations. And they're really not supposed to talk about any investigations that are done during an election because they don't want to affect the election. But there you go.
But they said more than that. The word from the office is it was done by this third-party contractor that this is how it got in. They have a whole rationale and explanation for it. And it has no proof in it from their own investigation that there was any intent to discard Biden or Trump ballots.
Why didn't he tell you that? Why did he add on to what's known? Some stream? Why didn't he say, "My own Department of Justice that I had look at it says" why didn't he?
We had Pennsylvania's Attorney General on the show last night to ask him about it. He told us, if you were watching that they were ballots from the primary election, but they weren't. They're from the general. It's a meaningful difference.
Where did that mix-up come from? We're going to get the real deal right now. We have back tonight Pennsylvania's Attorney General, Josh Shapiro.
[21:05:00]
Two things. One, thank you for taking the opportunity to come back, appreciate that.
JOSH SHAPIRO, PENNSYLVANIA ATTORNEY GENERAL: Absolutely.
CUOMO: And two, in advance, pray for us, brother. I know Yom Kippur is coming. I wish you an easy fast. But pray for us all, pray for us.
SHAPIRO: Thanks pal.
CUOMO: We all need to atone, and I appreciate any and all prayers.
So, how did we screw this up? How did we think that they were primary ballots when they were general election?
SHAPIRO: Yes look, obviously, last night was so much fun, Chris. So, I decided to come back for more here.
CUOMO: Yes. That I had never heard before.
SHAPIRO: This is what happens when you have a president create chaos, when you have some of the leadership at the Department of Justice, seemingly get ahead of what really needs to happen in a fact-finding mission, which is to get all of the information.
If you recall, when I came on your air last night, there were these two competing press releases that came out, the one that I think was left standing actually referenced the primary. And so, the assumption was these ballots were from the primary.
You see, I took the time, Chris, to actually chase down the facts, and talk to the U.S. Attorney and talk to the District Attorney, and actually found out subsequently that these were military ballots that had already been sent out for the general election.
And here's the situation, Chris. We've now learned the facts. We learned, as you said in your promo, this was a seasonal worker, who made a mistake. He was caught by the county worker, who reported it to his boss, who immediately went to law enforcement, who conducted a proper investigation.
And now, we know, as I said to you last night, there are clerical issues and there are criminal issues. This was a clerical issue. We got to the bottom of it. And now, even though it's not our investigation, the law enforcement got to the bottom of it.
And now, any of those people, who could potentially be affected, those brave souls who are serving in our military overseas, can contact the Luzerne County Board of Elections to determine what next steps they need to take about their ballot.
But let's not ignore the broader issue here. While all of this was going on, and responsible fact-finding was going on, on the ground, we had a President of the United States, a White House Spokeswoman, or whatever her title is, going out and spewing this irresponsible nonsense, trying to create a narrative that suits his aim of creating chaos in our communities, when we should all be taking a deep breath and trying to figure out what the facts are.
Now we have the facts. And the facts don't meet the President's rhetoric. By the way, Chris, not all that different from the facts surrounding Coronavirus. He wants to change all the facts. He wants to ignore all the information, and we've got 200,000 dead in this country, people continue to be sick in my State and others.
He tries to manipulate facts and create chaos. But, at the end of the day, we deal with evidence, we deal with facts, and I think the American people understand that as well.
CUOMO: Did they find any ballots in a stream?
SHAPIRO: No, Chris, and in fact, there was some reference made to a dumpster or a trash can. Do you know why they made that reference?
CUOMO: No.
SHAPIRO: Because the ballots were secured in the receptacle that they were in, so that law enforcement could review what happened, right?
Think about that, for a second. We have a President of the United States putting out these bogus, irresponsible conspiracy theories to stoke people up, to make them feel like somehow their vote, their participation in our democracy is meaningless, to try and take away their power in this process.
At the end of the day, the people have the power. And it's up to us, on your shows, in our communities, on our timelines on social media, to deal in fact, not the fiction the President wants us to deal in, to calm nerves and to focus on protecting our democracy.
That's what I'm trying to do as the Attorney General of Pennsylvania, and that's what we need all law enforcement to do.
CUOMO: You're familiar with the DOJ and how they work. Do you think it's odd that they put out a press release saying who the votes were for?
SHAPIRO: I think what's odd is that--
CUOMO: And, by the way, they had to change it. First they said, all of the ballots were for Trump, and then they changed it to seven. But why would they even mention that?
SHAPIRO: Look, I have a lot of confidence in the federal law enforcement officials, operating on the ground here in Pennsylvania. I work with them every single day, including the United States
Attorney, who's involved in this case. We have law enforcement collaboration and cooperation in a good and strong and productive way, here in Pennsylvania.
What I find remarkable is that before they were able to complete their jobs, the White House Press Secretary, indeed, the President of the United States--
CUOMO: Jumped it.
[21:10:00]
SHAPIRO: --she was out spewing this craziness, making it, by the way, harder for law enforcement to do our job, to have integrity in our system, and get the answers that the public need to have faith--
CUOMO: Right.
SHAPIRO: --in the process.
CUOMO: Look, I hear you about the people on the ground.
SHAPIRO: That's our job. And the President's making it harder.
CUOMO: I hear you about the people on the ground, A.G. I'm not - I'm not going after everybody. I'm just saying I just pulled a couple of things, OK?
SHAPIRO: Yes.
CUOMO: This stinks to me, how this was handled.
SHAPIRO: Yes.
CUOMO: Not your part. You got bad information. It was a mix-up. It happens. You got my respect for coming back on to talk about it. A lot of people wouldn't.
SHAPIRO: Of course.
CUOMO: So, a pull quote.
Put up the DOJ guidance for me please.
"Any criminal investigation by the Department must be conducted in a way that minimizes the likelihood that the investigation itself may become a factor in the election."
So, this could not be less the case. And that's why I don't like them putting out who the votes were for, and getting it wrong, by the way, and having to correct it, especially the Rod Rosenstein thing, I still have the whole Comey memo in my head, "Longstanding policy that we refrain from publicizing non-public information," yes, like who people voted for. And yet, here, it sure does seem convenient that that information was
put out because it goes hand-in-hand with what the President wants people to believe.
SHAPIRO: Chris, it's hard to respond to that, because it's hard to imagine that we're in this moment in time in our country, where there are certain people weaponizing the rule of law, and trying to use it as a tool to benefit one person or one party over the other.
The rule of law is something that is shared by all, Democrats and Republicans.
Here, in Pennsylvania, we respect the rule of law. And what we're trying to do is stay calm, stay focused on the facts and evidence, trying to ignore the noise from the President, and ensure the public that their vote will be counted, whether they vote by mail, whether they vote at a polling place.
And that's our job, in law enforcement, to kind of rise above the noise of the President, rise above his temper tantrums, and focus on doing the work that the people of Pennsylvania trusted me to do, and the American people want us all to do.
CUOMO: A.G., thank you very much again, heading into a very High Holiday, pray for all of us, may you have an easy fast.
SHAPIRO: Thanks, my friend.
CUOMO: All right.
SHAPIRO: See you soon.
CUOMO: Now, just to - quick sum, OK?
President puts out there, like "I don't know, I don't know," no, yes, you do know. Your DOJ is doing the work on the ground. You jumped them. You got in front of it, with "I'll never lie to you" McEnany, who sold something that's just completely a false narrative.
There is no stream. There is no "Found in the garbage." They were secured for review. And there is no proof from the Feds that there's any evidence or proof that this was done maliciously. So, why is he suggesting otherwise?
And you know who's really hurting Trump supporters in terms of their vote and securing the franchise in this election? He is, by telling you not to vote by mail-in ballot, not to trust it.
Listen, you're for Trump, you're for Biden, if you're worried about COVID in your area, look into your State's laws, get a ballot, vote. Vote your conscience. Vote your heart. Vote your head. But vote. Don't listen to him.
The system is fine. I can't believe I have to say that. But don't listen to him. The system is fine. We have no proof any other way. Just sowing doubt, that's what this is about. Attack the vote! That's Trump's campaign rally. Attack the vote!
And you know what? It's a gift to our enemies. This is exactly what Russia wants us to be thinking and doing, except they thought outside agents would have to make it happen, not our President.
So, what can we do to secure the integrity of our vote? Let's ask one of Trump's former National Security Advisers, Retired Lieutenant General H.R. McMaster. What a pleasure to have him here tonight! Next.
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TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.
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[21:15:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: BREAKING NEWS.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: Little bit of breaking news on our watch, actually instructive of a larger point.
A federal judge in Montana has just ordered Trump's Acting Director of the Bureau of Land Management to step aside, why, because he's been serving in that role unlawfully for over a year.
It is a major blow to the President's attempt to get around the confirmation process. See, he doesn't want top aides to have to be confirmed, especially because of the checked record that he's had and the toxic politics that he promotes.
So instead, he installs "Actings," right? You ever notice that, that we always say the "Acting this, the Acting that." That's why he does it.
Montana's Democratic Governor sued to remove William Perry Pendley because he had never been confirmed by the Senate. And that's what's supposed to happen. The Trump Administration argued Pendley didn't officially have the title of "Acting Director" so the requirement does not apply.
It's a game, and the Judge didn't buy it. The Court says Pendley's position violates the law. The Interior Department says it will appeal. Now, that's instructive, OK? Two reasons, and then I have a very big segment for you with H.R. McMaster.
You heard Harry Reid, former Senate Leader, say why he did what he did with the filibuster, for Executive appointments, because the Republicans, under Mitch McConnell, had said "We won't let Obama do anything," and it was working until he changed the rule. This is how this President is getting around finding ways for both sides to accommodate nominees, calling them "Acting." Very interesting, how we got here today, this mess, this chaos, it's not a simple path how we got here, it's not going to be a simple path to get out of it.
Now, what we know for sure is controversy, chaos, all over this Trump White House, all the time, especially tonight.
Every American Intel agency is warning us that Russia wants us to be doing basically what we're doing right now, questioning the legitimacy of our own democracy. Those who know, like our next guest, H.R. McMaster, are trying to get you to see what's going on.
[21:20:00]
He has a new book. I encourage you to read it. It's called "Battlegrounds." Trump's former National Security Adviser lays out Putin's objectives, and they are frighteningly like what we're going through right now. And I'm not blaming the Russians, all right? So, let's talk a little bit.
The Russians are trying to undermine our democratic process, right? Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I think it's going to be a rigged election.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: The Russians want to spread disinformation, right? Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: When it gets a little warmer, it miraculously goes away.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: That was about the pandemic.
The Russians want to inflame racial divisions, right? Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: You're going to destroy your suburbs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: The Russians want to discredit the election results, right?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Maybe you'll never know the election result.
(END VIDEO CLIP) CUOMO: Their greatest tool seems to be our President!
General McMaster, welcome to PRIME TIME. I don't have you here to talk politics. I have you here to talk national security and policy. The - and we'll do it through a skeptical dialectic.
"Oh, Russia! You guys always say Russia's coming after us. They come after us. We go after them. China. North Korea. It happens all the time. It's only being made a big deal now because of Trump and you're trying to get him. That's the only reason anybody cares. It's no worse now than it's ever been."
What should people know?
H.R. MCMASTER, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER UNDER PRESIDENT TRUMP: Hey Chris, it's great to be with you. Thanks for having me.
CUOMO: Pleasure is mine. And thank you.
MCMASTER: Thanks.
I mean the history that I tell in "Battlegrounds," so I mean the approach that I take is basically, to understand how the past produced the present, right? It's the first step of understanding where we are.
I mean Russia has been trying to disrupt our democracy since the 1920s. But now, they have all sorts of new tools available to them, especially this cyber-enabled information warfare that they're waging against us.
And, as you alluded to, what they're really trying to do is create a crisis of confidence, reduce our confidence in who we are as a people, and in our democratic principles, and institutions, and processes. And they do this with a sustained campaign.
And what they try to do is magnify extreme voices, on both ends of the political spectrum. And I think that's what we're seeing today in connection with a sustained effort to diminish our confidence in our election, our confidence, also, though, in our common identity as Americans.
You know Chris, after the 2016 election, the Russian activity went way up. This is the Internet Research Agency, this kind of front organization for the GRU and the SVR, the successors to the KGB. And they had a campaign ready to go to say, "Hey, Hillary Clinton won the election because of a rigged election."
Well, actually, when Donald Trump won, it kind of surprised the Russians, right?
And so they shifted - they shifted their campaign to, "Well, Donald Trump would have won the popular vote, right, if it hadn't been the - for the election being - for being rigged." So, it really is an effort to diminish our confidence in the results. And that - what did they do immediately? They immediately supported
far-Right groups, far-Left groups, the Resist movement and everything, because what they want to do is to - is to destroy our consensus about what it means to be Americans.
CUOMO: I want to talk to you about White supremacists but hold on a second. This is fascinating. And again, people have to read the book. It's called "Battlegrounds." If you care about this, because it's only going to get worse, people are getting more sophisticated.
But this is the part, General, the idea that Russia doesn't really need to do anything. All the words I just played for you came out of the President's mouth.
MCMASTER: Yes, right.
CUOMO: And you have said here, and according to my reporting, when you were in the White House, "You got to stop this. You can make the same point a lot of different ways, but don't tear at this stuff, because we're already fighting it back."
What does it mean to you to hear the President say the things that you're trying to stop Russia from planting?
MCMASTER: Well, it's just wrong, Chris. And it's not only regrettable, but it's damaging, right, to our democracy, and kind of plays into our enemy's hands, into Russia's hands.
This is true though, Chris, across the - across the political spectrum, right? The President says things that are damaging. And what I found, and what I described in the book, in different parts of the book, is that the reaction to that oftentimes is just as damaging.
So, what I would just say to all political leaders, the President, those who oppose him, his greatest supporters, anybody that's involved in this vitriolic partisan debate that we have going on right now, and discourse we see - have going on right now, "Don't be our own worst enemies."
And you know what I wish we could do, Chris, because it never happens? It never happens.
On any issue, I wish we could just begin the discussion with what we agree on because I think Americans would find, "Hey, we agree on quite a bit. And we can get to work on quite a bit to make our nation better, to secure better future for generations to come."
[21:25:00]
And - but instead, it seems like we're determined to pull ourselves apart. And, as you mentioned, I mean this is mainly on us, right? I mean, Russia makes it worse, but they don't create these divisions.
CUOMO: I'll tell you and the audience something that will be a little bit surprising, but it goes to your point.
When Rudy Giuliani was pushing the first wave of stuff he was getting out of Ukraine, the reporting very quickly went around that people around Rudy were worried about who he was associating with, and not just Andrii Derkach, who has now been identified by our - you know, but who's been identified by our Intelligence agencies as a Russian tool for their own propaganda. He's a Russian agent. But there were others.
And I went to Rudy's guys, and I was like, "Hey, you've got to tell him." And they stopped me, and said, "You don't think - you think you know something we don't know, Cuomo. We're telling him. These guys are bad guys."
MCMASTER: Yes.
CUOMO: And I've never heard of that before, where someone that close to a President would mess with people that his friends are telling him, "Stay away from these guys." The Intel people say, "This guy, Derkach, is no good." Rudy comes on my show, and says, "They are wrong."
Can they be wrong?
MCMASTER: Yes. Well Chris, what this is indicative of is - I mean the Russians are really, really good. I mean Putin himself is a KGB operator, right? He's one of the best liars in the world.
And what they try to do is infiltrate our organizations, they try to co-opt elites, build relationships, get kompromat on anybody they can, so they can use it - so they can use it against them.
And what I described in "Battlegrounds" is kind of this fire hose of falsehood they use to augment this effort of co-option of elites and to sow disinformation. I mean this - this Kremlin, what they have - what they do is really an activity you might describe as implausible deniability.
I mean it's quite obvious right, that they tried to kill Sergei - they tried to kill Sergei Skripal in the spring of 2008, and his daughter, and they placed thousands of people at risk with this nerve agent in Salisbury, England.
Well I mean they're so brazen, they use the same kind of technique to try to kill Navalny. And then - and then they just deny it. "Oh no, that couldn't be us." And actually, Putin had a temerity to suggest "Well maybe - maybe Navalny poisoned himself with the nerve agent."
CUOMO: Right.
MCMASTER: I mean they - I mean he--
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: If you're not - if you're not afraid of being held accountable though--
MCMASTER: --and you know.
CUOMO: --you can say anything, right? I mean that's Putin's--
MCMASTER: That's right. CUOMO: --greatest shield is--
MCMASTER: Right.
CUOMO: --"Who's going to do something? Come - come and get me." Nobody wants to deal with that. But it's just what a bizarre world when we have the President and one of his own personal lawyer putting out things that the Russians want out there to hurt the democracy.
White supremacists, White nationalism, when we bring up that domestically these guys are the big concern, people hated hearing that, when we were living in fear of Islamism and extreme Islamism, people forget like they're not still out there.
And we'd say, "Well White supremacists, we got to be careful." "Oh, no, no, no, no, now you're just trying to make it political," because they think White, White nationalism, same thing.
What do you want people to know about the reality that it's not just--
MCMASTER: Right.
CUOMO: --15 guys at a parade wearing stupid Nazi garb that there's a reason you guys--
MCMASTER: Yes.
CUOMO: --keep identifying White nationalists.
MCMASTER: Yes. I think what I'd like people to know is that this is a cycle.
It's a cycle that begins with ignorance. Ignorance is used to foment hatred, and hatred is used to justify violence against innocents. And there - this ignorance is what - is what our enemies can weaponize and what we do to ourselves on social media.
Hey, Chris, what's different, I think, about this environment today is the way that these extreme people, these people who use this cycle of ignorance and hatred and violence, they have a much louder voice because of the algorithms on social media, that show us more and more extreme content that reinforce, rather than challenge our prejudices and our biases, and we're being driven apart by that.
Also, I think, in the pseudo media, and even our mainstream media now, people who kind of identify with a certain political leanings, they watch like one show on one network, instead of - instead of all of us, maybe having a common understanding of these issues.
So, it's a big problem, Chris. And I'm afraid it's getting worse, really, because of the way we communicate or really don't communicate with each other. We need to come together for real conversations about these issues.
And what you see today, I think, is this interaction, this interaction of what - you might call it identity politics with racism and bigotry, and it's creating these centripetal forces that are pulling us apart from each other.
We shouldn't tolerate it, right? We need to come together, as Americans, and reinforce who we are as a people. We need to reinforce, really the principles we all believe in, tolerance, respect for one another, rule of law.
[21:30:00]
And you know what we might even do, in the midst of this crazy campaign season, is celebrate the fact that at least we have a say in how we're governed, right? If you're in Communist China, Chris, you're not getting a say in how we're governed. You can't demand better from your elected officials.
We are all in a position to do that. And I think - I think that we should take that opportunity, even in the midst of this vitriol that we see every day.
CUOMO: It's hard. Messaging matters. And we're not hearing a lot of that these days. General H.R. McMaster, thank you very much.
I want to jump the invitation and ask you to come back and come back soon. And let's give people some more specifics about what you want them to look out for during the election cycle.
MCMASTER: Right.
CUOMO: If it works for your calendar--
MCMASTER: Right.
CUOMO: --I'll make it work for ours. I think it'd be a great help, especially in the - we only have a few weeks left. OK?
MCMASTER: All right, Chris, I'd be happy to do that.
CUOMO: All right.
MCMASTER: Thanks. Thanks so much.
CUOMO: I appreciate the insight. Good luck with the book. "Battlegrounds: The Fight to Defend the Free World."
MCMASTER: Thank you.
CUOMO: There it is. Thank you very much.
All right, third night of protests over the grand jury decision not to hold any Kentucky police officers accountable for the killing of Breonna Taylor. One of the officers was indicted, but essentially for the bullets that missed, not for the bullets that hit her.
Breonna's mother and other family members led a march Downtown earlier this evening. Their lawyer is now demanding to see the information presented to the grand jury. Why? Well, the Attorney for Breonna's boyfriend says the case was designed to let officers off the hook. How can he make that point? How can he back it up? He says he can, and
he's here to do so, next.
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TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.
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[21:35:00]
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TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT.
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CUOMO: Tonight, once again across America, a third night of protests, calling for justice and transparency, after no Louisville police officers were directly charged in Breonna Taylor's death.
Taylor's family is now calling for the grand jury transcripts to be released. And there's another person who wants the Kentucky A.G. to release the findings, Kenneth Walker, and that's Breonna's boyfriend, who fired, when people came in their apartment, in the middle of the night, obviously there during the shooting.
Walker's attorney, Steven Romines, joins us now.
Why do you want it put out there? The charges were dropped against your client. They're not coming after him anymore, why do you care?
STEVEN ROMINES, ATTORNEY FOR BREONNA TAYLOR'S BOYFRIEND KENNETH WALKER: Well actually they dismissed the charges without prejudice, which means they can charge him at any time, again. We've filed a motion, and filed an action for the case to be dismissed with prejudice, so that jeopardy attaches, and he can never be charged again for this.
CUOMO: OK. Just one beat on him
ROMINES: So that that is--
CUOMO: One beat on him, Counselor, and then I know you have broader concerns as well.
On him, he says "I got startled. I didn't know who it was. I didn't hear anything, so I fired." And it makes more sense that he would have hit the officer. And - but he says he did it. They dropped the charges. Why isn't that the end of the analysis for you? What did the A.G. say that you don't like?
ROMINES: Well they framed him, first of all, and they alleged he fired the shot, and indicted him with 1 minute and 52 seconds of grand jury testimony without any ballistics back at that point in time.
The ballistics subsequently came back from the Kentucky State Police, and determined that the shot that they claimed hit Officer Mattingly, they could not determine it was fired from Kenny's gun, so it--
CUOMO: The language is a little tricky in the ballistics report. But isn't it something about how it's consistent with a 9-millimeter, which is what he had, and the officers had 40-cal, so it couldn't be them?
ROMINES: Well actually Officer Brett Hankison, who was indicted, Louisville Metro Police records show he has a 9-millimeter service weapon as well. He's the one, who disappeared for about four hours, after the shooting and no one could locate him.
But - and he's also the one, Chris, let me say, in his own interview with the Police, he's the one who ran around the side of the house, and was blindly firing, according to the Chief of Police who fired him.
His testimony was, "I kept seeing muzzle flashes, so I fired at the muzzle flashes." Kenny walker only fired one shot initially. So, if he's firing at muzzle flashes, by his own testimony, it can only be at other law enforcement officers. And--
CUOMO: And the point is?
ROMINES: Well, the point is, he is - by his own testimony, he's admitting that he is shooting at other law enforcement officers.
The other thing is Officer Mattingly never announced he was shot for over 1 minute and 12 seconds after the first shot is fired. And he also doesn't announce, until after he is outside - outside, and he and another officer trip over each other. By his own testimony, he stated, "We fell over each other as we were going out though - outside."
CUOMO: Right, I get it.
ROMINES: That officer - that officer he tripped over--
CUOMO: But they're going to have explanations for that.
ROMINES: --that officer he tripped over also carries a 9-millimeter. None of the other officers' weapons were compared with the shot that they say hit Mattingly.
CUOMO: So--
ROMINES: Not a single one.
CUOMO: So, I understand the concern.
ROMINES: So, they want to come to a conclusion and that there's a conclusion that they want to come to, and so they don't investigate anything else that would contradict that.
CUOMO: And you believe that that is--
ROMINES: And that's the information they gave the grand jury.
CUOMO: --you believe that there is a pattern of that in this case. Obviously, as it regards Kenny Walker.
ROMINES: I know there's a pattern.
CUOMO: But you also think it goes to the overall analysis of the case as well?
[21:40:00]
ROMINES: I know there's a pattern, Chris. I've reviewed the case. And nothing that the police officers say in their interviews is consistent with one another or is it consistent with the physical evidence in the case.
CUOMO: In a way that is different than normal--
ROMINES: Nothing. Which is why--
CUOMO: --fog of war in these situations?
ROMINES: Well possibly. However that one of them says that Kenny Walker or Breonna Taylor was in a prone position, firing an AR-15. They said they fired 12 shots to 15 shots. We know that is not possible because none of those were recovered and there was no AR-15.
We also have them saying, Officer Mattingly says, "I was shot, and I returned fire four shots to six shots, as I was backing out the door." We've got Officer Hoover says, "We go in. Mattingly gets shot. I see blood go everywhere. And I drag him out the door."
One thing we do know is there's no blood in the apartment. Everything they say is inconsistent with one another and inconsistent with the physical evidence in the case. And which is why--
CUOMO: Do you know whether or not the A.G. presented evidence to the grand jury that would have implicated any of the officers in the death of Breonna Taylor?
ROMINES: I do not believe they gave the grand jury an option to charge anyone with the homicide. I also don't believe they gave the grand jury an option to charge the other two officers with anything.
CUOMO: But how could they not?
ROMINES: And the reason why that is, is--
CUOMO: Let's just - but Steve, just help me understand that, because you don't know what they did and what they didn't do, right?
ROMINES: No. I'm filing a motion--
CUOMO: Because you don't have a transcript yet. But how could this A.G.--
ROMINES: --I'm filing a motion tomorrow to release it.
CUOMO: I understand. But how could this A.G. not offer the grand jury any type of option or choice or evidence that went to the fact that Breonna Taylor's death was caused by the police officers? Wouldn't he be just asking for trouble by ignoring that?
ROMINES: Well how could he do it in good faith? He couldn't. However, if he does it in bad faith, than he can. He can say, "That was my decision that I determined that they acted in self-defense, and so I didn't want to present it."
The reason it - the evidence indicates he did not present it is, when a case is presented to a grand jury, in Kentucky, and they chose not to indict, they issue what's called a "No True Bill," and they actually stamp the indictment "No True Bill," which means the grand jury did not find probable cause to indict.
There were zero No True Bills returned in this case, which is indicative of the fact that it was never presented to them. However--
CUOMO: It couldn't be because the A.G. did it, not a local prosecutors, that changed the process at all?
ROMINES: It does not change the process. Again, if it's presented to them--
CUOMO: All right.
ROMINES: --and they choose not to indict, they return a No True Bill and--
CUOMO: So, let's do this. I know you want to get more information. Others are asking for it as well. I'll stay on the story.
When you get information that you believe informs your opinion, or I get information that shows that the opinion is off, let's do this again, all right? Let's stay on it, and get people as much information as we can, and I appreciate you doing it.
ROMINES: Let's get them all the information, Chris.
CUOMO: As much as we can.
ROMINES: There's no valid reason - there's no valid reason for the Attorney General to oppose releasing it all.
CUOMO: Well we'll see. There are going to be a lot of requests. Steven Romines, thank you very much.
ROMINES: Thanks.
CUOMO: All right, the calls for justice for Breonna, very much echo John Lewis' life mission. This weekend, CNN is going to have its own must-see tribute to the
lion of the Civil Rights Movement. You can tune in Sunday, at 9:00 Eastern, as CNN Films presents "John Lewis: Good Trouble."
I'll tell you this. It had three generations of my family, riveted, from 10, to whatever my mother is.
We'll be right back.
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[21:45:00]
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CUOMO: Protests for racial equality and justice in America have been largely peaceful. And by largely, I mean a recent stat places it at well over 90 percent. But the President wants you to believe this.
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TRUMP: For the entire summer, Joe Biden was silent, as his far-Left supporters assaulted police officers, harassed innocent Americans, and set fire to buildings.
You look at Portland, how about Portland? It's like an anarchist's dream.
If Biden wins, the mob wins. If Biden wins, the rioters, anarchists, arsonists and flag-burners, they win.
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CUOMO: And he further demonized protesters, this week, by using the Department of Justice to label three Democratic-run cities, Portland, Seattle and New York City as "Anarchy" jurisdictions.
Now, a look inside the groups, on the streets in Portland, will show you just how dangerous this President's efforts might be.
CNN's Elle Reeve got extraordinary access to both sides. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PROTESTERS SINGING: You all never going to sleep because of me!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Say what?!
PROTESTERS SINGING: I ain't going to sleep because of you all!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do not enter this area.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When they start moving, we start moving as well because they're going to get in there.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We have a problem in our police department that is systemic.
ELLE REEVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is one week in Portland, Oregon, where anti-police protests have been going on for more than a 100 days, and tensions between protesters and police have only escalated. As we got there, a member of the Right-wing group, Patriot Prayer, named Aaron "Jay" Danielson was killed by an antifascist protester.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jay loved his country.
REEVE (voice-over): Everyone we spoke to said they feared violence would escalate.
"SISU," ANTIFASCIST PROTEST MEDIC: The reason that we're out here is because petitions don't work. Voting for the lesser of two evils just leaves us worse off every time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We come out. We fight.
[21:50:00]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're not doing this because we hate America. We all have one goal in mind and that is ending police brutality.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Black lives matter!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: People are dying, and if water bottles being thrown at the police, stops that, I'll do it every day.
REEVE (on camera): How long have you been coming to the protests?
CHRIS WISE, ANTIFASCIST PROTEST MEDIC: The whole time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Since May 29th for me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our role is basically frontline medic support. No matter where it comes from, it could be tripping in the street, it could be getting pushed into a building, could be gunshots. We cover it all.
WISE: I've had to de-escalate about three outside agitators who have come in with guns. They were always far and few in between, it was like some guy who was like "Antifa's terrorists!" And we're like "Not terrorists, man, it's just a protest"
REEVE (on camera): Do a lot of people have weapons? WISE: We don't have weapons.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We don't have weapons.
WISE: The most weaponized we get is like shields.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shields.
(PROTESTERS CHANTING)
REEVE (on camera): What do you say to the people who are like "Well I like the peaceful protests, but when they burn stuff or break windows, that's - that's different from BLM?"
"LEO," POLICE VIOLENCE PROTESTER: I'd say property doesn't bleed, but I do. If ending systematic oppression means a store gets burnt or looted, and nobody is hurt, how is that any worse than living in a situation where I have to fear for my life every day?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are on top of the donut shop, which is ironically located across from the Portland Police Union.
(SIRENS BLARING)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Often, the protest will continue for a couple hours and then all of a sudden--
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get out of the street!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: --there will be a huge rush of riot cops.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We've got--
(CROSSTALK)
REEVE (on camera): Back in May, when the protests started, did you have a gas mask or any other gear?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No! Of course, I didn't have a gas mask! I mean, I had face masks for COVID, but none of us had gas masks. I think we've raised about $30,000 this week to buy bulletproof vests, because it turns out that we might need them. And that's really terrifying.
WISE: So, I've got a body cam to record things that need evidence in court. I currently have a head injury, like I'm still recovering from a TBI. It was back when we were still under the federal occupation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That was in July, right?
WISE: Yes, but yes, I know they shot me directly in the head with a tear gas canister, and then I got post-concussion syndrome like 22 hours later. So--
REEVE (on camera): Something I've kind of noticed in just a few protests that we've attended is that there's a moment of kind of party feeling, you stand in front of the police. But then there's some moment where kind of like it gets quiet, and
it's like there's a tension, it seems to almost be inviting the confrontation, like that the protests can't end without that clash?
"SISU": Yes, a big part of what's happening here is that it has to be uncomfortable.
SCOTTY HARRINGTON, ANTIFASCIST PROTEST MEDIC: Well, before we even came out of the park, the LRAD over there started to announce that it was an unpermitted march. People were not happy so people starting marching. Someone threw some incendiary devices, and then all hell broke loose. And there was teargas flying in, fireworks. It was really rough and they're making a push.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: --arrest him.
REEVE (on camera): How do you see it ending?
"SISU": I'm not sure. We haven't seen much of any change that the people out here are activists, and maybe they didn't start as activists. And that carries on for the rest of your life.
REEVE (voice-over): President Trump has warned Antifa will ruin the suburbs.
TRUMP: Does anybody want to have somebody from Antifa as a resident of your suburb? I don't think so.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (BEEP) You, Antifa! We don't want your marching (BEEP) in Portland, Salem, Oregon!
(WHISTLING)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Take a hike!
REEVE (voice-over): Both sides say they act only in self-defense. But in person, things get out of hand quickly.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Paintballs! Paintballs!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As far as Patriot Prayer, we do not condone violence. That's not what we're about. I can't speak for some of these other guys. But, in the end, we all love our country and support our President.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Get your protests (INAUDIBLE) get out of this (INAUDIBLE) get out of this (INAUDIBLE).
REEVE (on camera): Do you think this is some kind of weird Civil War?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't see it as that yet. But eventually, it could lead to that because the whole BLM-Antifa movement has just gotten more and more and more violent as time progresses.
[21:55:00]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Enough! Enough! All the way back over there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And it's literally across the nation, and we're tired of it. It's time for us, as patriotic citizens, to take back our cities. And if that means by violent means, we'll have to do it.
REEVE (voice-over): Elle Reeve, CNN, Portland.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CUOMO: That's a great deep look by Elle Reeve and her team. But what an obvious takeaway, I hope, for all of you. Boy, does this situation cry out for leadership? We have to be better than this.
We'll be right back.
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TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT.
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CUOMO: Thank you for watching. "CNN TONIGHT" with D. Lemon starts right now.
Our Jewish brothers and sisters celebrate the High Holiday, 10 days after their New Year, Yom Kippur.
DON LEMON, CNN HOST, CNN TONIGHT WITH DON LEMON: Yes. Yes.
CUOMO: The Day of Atonement. And I'm asking all of them to pray for all of us. Pray for all of us.
LEMON: Yes. We need it.
CUOMO: Boy oh boy, we can use it.
LEMON: I was just you - you took the words out of my mouth. Happy Yom Kippur for - to everyone. But here's the thing. What a week!
