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Trump & Biden Debate for First Time Tonight; Trump's Massive Debt Stokes National Security Concerns. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired September 29, 2020 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: President Trump is lashing out over a damning "New York Times" report about the dire state of his finances. His aides are claiming it's a last-minute hit job before the first debate.

[05:59:36]

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The president has paid lots of taxes. The point is, why would anybody pay more than they owe?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Donald Trump only has one playbook, and that's to try to steer the conversation away from the facts when the facts don't support his argument.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A virus that once seemed distant, hitting closer to home with each passing day.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are not out of this yet. I hope not, but we very well might start seeing increases in deaths.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Alisyn Camerota and John Berman.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome to our viewers in the United States and all around the world. This is NEW DAY. It's Tuesday, September 29, 6 a.m. here in New York. And we are now just hours away from what could be a defining moment in the presidential campaign and, honestly, a defining moment for the nation. This is not hyperbole.

The first presidential debate comes at a time when 205,072 Americans have died from coronavirus. What could be more important than that? What could be more defining as a country than how we choose to address that?

There are other matters also rising to the forefront. Again, you're looking at live pictures of the debate hall in Ohio. These questions at the forefront now involve the president's taxes and these giant revelations from "The New York Times" that he paid just, yes, $750 in federal income taxes.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Have you updated that graphic from yesterday? BERMAN: The point is -- no, because it's the same. It's the same $750

he paid in income taxes at a time when the average filer pays $12,000. Questions around national security risks surrounding the $421 million "The Times" says the president owes, much of it coming due in the next few years. All of this will be on display tonight.

This morning, we have new details about how both candidates are getting ready for the debate. We're also in for several hours of expectation manipulation now. This is the bizarre quadrennial charade, when each campaign asserts that the other is such a terrific debater in order to set expectations. So be warned.

Also breaking overnight, Vice President Pence's former top aide confirming to CNN that White House officials pressured the CDC to play down the risks to children and their families in reopening schools.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OLIVIA TROYE, FORMER STAFF MEMBER FOR VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE: This was an effort, you know, at times, where I would get blindsided, where there would be junior staffers being tasked to find different data for charts that would show that the virus wasn't as bad for certain populations, ages or demographics.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: We'll talk to Olivia Troye more about that later in the program. This morning, 23 states are seeing new cases rise. And overnight, the global death toll from coronavirus surpassed 1 million people.

So how will President Trump explain his handling of the pandemic? And his shockingly low tax payments on the debate stage tonight?

CNN's Jessica Dean is live at the debate hall in Cleveland with our top story.

Good morning, Jessica.

JESSICA DEAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to you, Alisyn.

Yes, inside this debate hall just a few hours, both men will be on the stage behind me meeting for the first time onstage for their first debate during this -- or meeting for the first time during this election, this general election campaign.

It's a very different kind of debate. Let me walk you through some of the steps.

Typically, we'd have 900 people in here. We're expected to have just 60 to 70 because of COVID-19 precautions. Everyone in here will have been tested for COVID before coming inside.

There will be no handshake between President Trump and Vice President Biden. Typically, the candidates would shake hands before a debate.

All of this because of the coronavirus and the precautions that are being taken to make sure everyone stays safe at this debate.

Now, in terms of preparation, we know that President Trump has really drifted away from any sort of formal preparation. He's not one for formally preparing for debates. He really sees -- he said he sees his press conferences as kind of training. And he says that he's had Chris Christie and Rudy Giuliani even stepping in as Joe Biden, but not really in a full mock debate.

But he has telegraphed that there will likely be personal attacks toward Joe Biden tonight.

As for Joe Biden, we know that he started his debate preps in the last few weeks with briefing books, with gatherings with small aides, kind of talking over policy. That expanded over last weekend to really full debate preparation, where they did do mock debates, though I'm told he really prefers to have aides pepper him with rapid-fire questions.

But they are also preparing for personal attacks from President Trump. As one of his senior staff members said on our air over the weekend, he's not running for fact checker in chief, is what Kate Bedingfield said on CNN. They are going to try, instead, for Joe Biden to continue to bring the conversation back to issues that we've heard him talk about time and time again on the campaign trail, Alisyn, and that is the coronavirus pandemic and the ensuing economic crisis. And really lay that at Donald Trump's feet. We'll see how it all goes.

And John mentioned expectation setting. President Trump has been putting the bar pretty low for Joe Biden for a while now. His campaign trying to up the bar. Biden's people, for their part, saying that really, they don't know how much of a difference this debate is going to make in terms of changing public opinion. We will see -- Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: Jessica, thank you for setting the table for all of that.

So "The New York Times" published its second installment of the reporting on President Trump's taxes. This one details how the reality show "The Apprentice" rescued Mr. Trump financially and created the false image of a successful businessman, as concerns grow this morning about President Trump's massive debt, hundreds of millions of dollars could pose a national security threat.

[06:05:23]

CNN's Joe Johns is live for us at the White House with more. What have you learned, Joe?

JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Alisyn. This debate is just hours away, and there's really a cloud hanging over it due to this "New York Times" reporting.

The president and his team have taken to calling this a hit job, a hit piece. But they're probably going to have to come up with ways to address the issues more substantively at the debate tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) JOHNS (voice-over): The fallout over President Trump's finances intensifying this morning, after a "New York Times" investigation said Trump paid no federal income taxes in 10 of the 15 years before he became president, because he reported losing more money than he made. And that he only paid $750 in federal income taxes in both 2016 and 2017.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's fake news. It's totally fake news. Made up. I paid a lot, and I paid a lot of state income taxes, too.

JOHNS: The president took no questions about his taxes Monday, but his team stepped in throughout the day, providing his defense.

BRIAN MORGENSTERN, WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: The president's attorney stated it was millions of dollars in taxes, but he didn't even have a chance to review -- he didn't even have a chance to review the documents.

KAYLEIGH MCENANY, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: We've seen this play out before, where there was a hit piece about the president's taxes, just before a debate, an inaccurate one, at that.

JOHNS: Democrats like vice-presidential nominee Kamala Harris taking aim at the amount, or lack thereof, of Trump's tax payments.

SEN. KAMALA HARRIS (D-CA), VICE-PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: You've got people who are doing God's work to protect and lift us up, paying more in taxes than the self-professed billionaire? It's inexcusable. And it's just completely, patently unfair.

JOHNS: And on the more than $350 million in loans "The Times" reports the president is personally responsible for that will become due over the next few years --

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): For me, this is a national security question. This president is the commander in chief. He has exposure to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars. To whom? The public has a right to know.

JOHNS: On the eve of the first debate, Trump attempted to turn the focus to his coronavirus response with this announcement from the Rose Garden.

TRUMP: Today, I'm pleased to report that we're announcing our plan to distribute 150 million Abbott rapid point-of-care tests in the coming weeks. Very, very soon.

JOHNS: And continued his downplaying of the pandemic.

TRUMP: Tremendous progress is being made. And I say it, and I'll say it all the time, we're rounding the corner.

JOHNS: Trump's words despite the fact that over 205,000 people have died from the coronavirus in the United States. Health experts warn the U.S. is far from rounding the corner with the pandemic. DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR ALLERGY AND

INFECTIOUS DISEASES: There are states that are starting to show uptick in cases and even some increase in hospitalizations in some states. And I hope not, but we very well might start seeing increases in deaths.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

JOHNS: So far, the president's response has been contradictory. At first, he said the report was false. Then he says it was information that was illegally obtained. So which is it?

The president could clear this up pretty quickly and set the record straight by releasing his tax returns on his own, but if past practice is any indication, don't hold your breath.

John, back to you.

BERMAN: Yes, Joe, he's done everything on earth to keep the public from seeing those taxes, including appealing cases all the way up to the Supreme Court. So don't hold your breath, I think, is an understatement of understatements.

Great to have you here and safe with us this morning, Joe. Thank you very much.

All right. Joining us now, two preeminent political commentators. Scott Jennings, a former special assistant at George W. Bush; and Paul Begala, a Democratic strategist. Gentlemen, thank you both for being with us on this momentous day, on this defining day. This is the first presidential debate. There's one thing we know, which is that the first debates tend to be the most important, Paul.

So as he takes this debate stage tonight, what does Joe Biden need to do? Beating an incumbent is not easy. You did it. You did it when you were on the Clinton campaign in '92, but what does Joe Biden need to do tonight?

PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: He needs an economic case. I think the country is ready to fire Trump. And Joe's going take his shots, I'm sure, at Trump, and that's fine, that's good. But more importantly, he's got to make a case at why he would do a better job, especially on the economy. It's the last thread that Trump has hanging on.

This tax story allows him to do this. You know, this is, as Biden likes to say, this is Scranton versus Park Avenue. That's a good, simple, populist economic case. He can make that argument that the -- that the system is stacked against working people in places like Scranton and in favor of billionaires or phony billionaires, like Trump, on Park Avenue or Fifth Avenue or wherever his stupid condo is.

[06:10:17]

BERMAN: It's Fifth Avenue. It's Fifth Avenue, and I don't know the intelligence level of the condo at all. But just as a matter of fact, it is on Fifth Avenue.

CAMEROTA: All right. I'll take Berman's bait and go with this line of questioning. So Scott, what does President Trump need to do tonight?

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think a couple of things. Like Paul, I think a discussion on the economy is where -- that's the most fertile ground from which Trump can fight. And so in order to do that, you have to be laser-focused on pivoting to that every time.

You can't get baited into going down every rabbit hole, where you wind up relitigating all of the things that you wouldn't -- that wouldn't speak to the future of the country, right? Litigating your taxes, litigating coronavirus in the past, which I suspect Biden will try to do. So if you're Trump, all those topics, you have to turn it to a conversation to the future.

I noticed in one of the national polls this weekend, that Trump had popped up to a 46 percent job approval, but in the ballot test against Biden, he was only at 41 percent. That suggests to me there's a cohort of voters that say, I like what Trump is doing, but I'm not going to re-elect him.

If I were Trump, even though there will be, you know, tens of millions of people watching, maybe 100 million people watching tonight, I'd be thinking about that group. People who have some affinity for my policies but are nervous about my re-election. Those would be the easiest people to recapture with messaging in a debate.

BERMAN: Paul, you know, right next to you or right next to us on the screen are the numbers from the pandemic, which are oppressive to see. To see 205,000 Americans dead is a stunning sight. So what impact will that have on the events tonight? How much should Joe Biden lean into that?

BEGALA: Well, it's -- it's a catastrophe. And it has ended the era of Trump succeeding at making politics show business for ugly people. It's not spectacle anymore. This is your life.

And usually in a campaign, the closing days, politicians say that. This is very important, it's very important. We know that now. This is a life-and-death matter.

And to -- to remind voters that, as people were dying, Trump was lying. He was telling his fellow Ivy League elite, Bob Woodward, oh, be careful, this stuff is really deadly. He was telling his supporters and the rest of us, It's a hoax, it's not deadly. He need -- Joe needs to put Mr. Trump on trial for that 205,072 Americans dead. And that -- that's catastrophic.

It also comes at a time when Mr. Trump is in court, forcing through this -- this new appointee to the Supreme Court in order to take away your rights to health care, to take away your rights to pre-existing conditions. On November 10, one week after the election, Trump is suing in the Supreme Court to take away our rights for protections against preexisting conditions in the middle of a pandemic; take away our healthcare in the middle of a pandemic. Biden needs to just drive that home, and I'm quite sure he will.

CAMEROTA: Scott, in the past, as you'll remember President Trump said during that Axios interview, said of the death toll, It is what it is. And so tonight, does he change his tone about all of that?

JENNINGS: Two -- I think two things are important on this for Trump. No. 1, the cohort of voters that I think he's suffering inside the most is actually seniors. The polling all shows that he's softer with seniors this time around than he was against Hillary Clinton. They don't hate Joe Biden the way they hated Hillary Clinton. And they are softer on Trump.

And I think it might be because they perceive that he doesn't take their health as seriously on the pandemic as he ought to, because seniors have obviously come to understand, you know, they're disproportionately likely to die from this.

What they haven't heard Trump say is, Look, I get it. I am looking out for you. I understand that you're at risk. So I think, on that front, he really does need to talk to the senior citizens watching tonight and say that he understands they're at risk, and he's fighting for them. That's No. 1.

No. 2, he has to shift the conversation forward and say, Look, what's done is done. We are where we are. It is tragic. And what Americans should be asking is, how are we going to look for the next four years on an economic recovery? And I have proven that I can recover an economy, because I did it. And I recovered it from Joe Biden and Barack Obama, who had slow growth, slow recovery from their -- during their eight years. That's where he would want to pivot and move.

What you can't do is get trapped in the rabbit hole, and a lot of incumbent presidents do this, as Paul knows. They get trapped, relitigating their stuff in the past, and they forget about to move the conversation to the future.

BERMAN: And Joe Biden has that risk, too. I mean, he often likes to re-litigate things that happened while he was vice president or senator, from any number of decades.

Paul, talk about the theatrics here. How much should each candidate get into that? Does Joe Biden get personal? Does Joe Biden respond, if he is attacked from President Trump?

BEGALA: I think the best debate coach for Joe Biden tonight is going to be Mohammad Ali. Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee. Right? Stick and move, Joe, stick and move. Don't get wrapped up in mud wrestling with this guy.

[06:15:10]

But he does need to take his shots. And God knows there's plenty of shots to take.

But the key move for Biden that I'm going to be looking for is the pivot. The president is going to attack Joe personally. He's going to attack Joe's family, because that's the kind of animal he is. Joe needs to not defend his own family; he needs to defend your family.

He needs to say, Look, my family is going to be fine, Donald. And your family is going to be fine. The question is, will the American family be fine? There are 205,072 American families tonight that have an empty place at the dinner table because of what you did and failed to do. My family's going to be just fine. What about the families of the fallen, who you called losers and suckers and insulted? What about the families of the troops who have bounties put on their head by your buddy, Vladimir Putin? You've done nothing to protect them. What about the American families, every one of which pays more taxes than you do?

See, that's the turn he's got to do. I mean, it just -- it writes itself, if you get it in your head that you've got to be -- to change my metaphor, like a toreador. Let the bull come, come, come and step to the side, and stick a sword in him as he passes.

BERMAN: One metaphor per answer.

CAMEROTA: Scott -- Scott, those metaphors ate up some time. We only have ten seconds left. Just kidding. We only have ten seconds left.

JENNINGS: Of course.

CAMEROTA: In terms of Donald Trump's taxes, you say that, if you were advising Joe Biden, you would have him do something sort of performative, like, Oh, I hear you're in some financial trouble. Here's a check for $750.

JENNINGS: First of all, I speak from the home of Mohammad Ali tonight. No. 2 -- this morning. No. 2, yes, I think there's way to stunt this, walk up with a check and say, I heard you were having money troubles, friend, because it would -- I think it would define the debate, but it would also cause Donald Trump's head to explode, of course. That's the kind of moment no one would forget. We'll see if either candidate has the nimbleness to pull something like that off.

CAMEROTA: Really interesting. Thank you very much, guys.

BERMAN: All right. We've been talking about it. I have -- I have a chart here right now. This is the huge amount of money that President Trump owes, according to "The New York Times": $421 million, $300 million of it due in just the next few years. There are those saying this is a national security risk. We'll discuss, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:21:25]

CAMEROTA: Developing this morning, more questions about President Trump's avoidance of paying federal taxes and his staggering $421 million worth of debt.

Joining us now, Trump biographer Tim O'Brien.

Tim, always great to see you. Can we just talk about these --

TIM O'BRIEN, TRUMP BIOGRAPHER: Hi, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: -- the debt? Let's just start with the debt. Because "The New York Times," you know, there's all these questions of, who does he owe money to? This would cause a national security threat, obviously, in a million different ways.

But "The New York Times" does spell out some of who he owes this money to. So here's that graph: "He has huge balances on loans soon to come due from Deutsche Bank, including $160 million on his Washington hotel in the old Post Office Building and $148 million on the Doral golf resort. Neither of those businesses is turning a profit."

Is that the answer to who he owes all this to?

O'BRIEN: I think it's a big part of the answer, Alisyn. And some of this, a good portion of this was already publicly known before "The Times" report came out.

The president's required to file a personal financial disclosure or PFD annually. He filed the first one, I think, in 2018. And -- and it detailed some of the Deutsche Bank, a big portion of these, I think around $300 million, as far back as 2018.

Russ Choma at "Mother Jones" did a very extensive look at his debts over the summer. They got close, a little bit higher than "The Times'" number. And I actually think "The Times'" number overall is -- is low. I'm not sure if they were only talking about his short-term debt, but Trump owes in excess of $1 billion. So actually, his debt burden is much larger, I think, than even "The Times" has -- has calculated.

CAMEROTA: But -- but how -- but Tim, just explain that a little bit, because we are going with that $421 million, so how do you know it's a billion?

O'BRIEN: Well, those are amounts that are, you know, publicly available in publicly available documents on mortgages he's taken out against various properties.

It's unfortunate that Dan Alexander is not here with us this morning. He did a wonderful accounting of this the night "The Times'" story came out, just tallying Trump's debts against all of his assets. I think the number Dan came up with was around $1.1 billion. I'm very comfortable with that being the number.

I think wherever we land on what the number is, I think this thing to stay focused on is, can Trump actually service that debt? If you think of a household that has credit card debt and mortgage debt and an income from a job, they have to make sure those things match up. And one of the things that's always been true of Donald Trump is he has this voracious, voracious appetite to consume far more debt than he often can handle.

And I think he's in a situation now where the businesses he runs are -- are driving in -- into the maw of the coronavirus pandemic. They're going to throw off less cash. It could be harder for him to sell some of those things to raise money if he needs it. It could be harder for him to borrow against those. He's already borrowed against some of his trophy properties, like Trump Tower and elsewhere. And -- and he could be in a bit of a bind.

There was a lot of, I think, chatter yesterday on social and elsewhere that Donald Trump is officially broke. And I think that that's premature. I don't think that's the case right now. But it gets to this issue of national security that you raised.

BERMAN: And the reason it gets to national security is because when you owe hundreds of millions, if not billions of dollars, it makes you vulnerable. It makes you susceptible, intelligence agencies are worried, to all forms of suggestion, to all forms of enticements. That's the vulnerability.

[06:25:07]

There have been questions about Deutsche Bank and Deutsche Bank's involvements with various foreign entities. That is a legitimate open question.

But the reason it's a national security risk, and would be for anyone applying for a federal job on a security screening, is that debt is a giant red flag. Alarm bells go flashing. When you have a lot of debt, it makes you vulnerable, Tim. Is that right?

O'BRIEN: That's completely right. As it is for, you know, anyone who owes debts to someone else is under that other person or entity's influence.

Deutsche Bank is particularly problematic, because it's had a troubled history in recent years with money laundering issues, with bid rigging in financial markets. It has an operation in the U.S. The federal regulatory structure regulates Deutsche Bank. That's a problem, because Trump is at the steering wheel of that process, and he's also a client of the bank.

You know, I think this has been one of the larger and more dangerous things hanging over the Trump administration from the second he took office. The president of the United States is exempt from a lot of conflicts of interest laws that govern the behavior of other federal officials. I think the framers of the Constitution and legislators since then haven't wanted to sort of hamstring a president, because a president touches so many issues that you couldn't actually come up with a conflict of interest law that wouldn't potentially disable the president's policy-making ability.

However, the framers never anticipated we'd have someone roll into the Oval Office encumbered with all of the business relationships that Donald Trump has, attached to his flagrant disregard for ethics, the rule of law, and a lot of evidence of his own personal corruption.

CAMEROTA: I don't know how the framers missed that there would be reality star show in the future, but somehow they did. But "The New York Times" has seized on that, in their latest installment about President Trump's taxes. And they have promised that there's more to come.

But basically, what they are talking about this time is the anatomy of a myth. I mean, the anatomy of making -- the making of this "Apprentice" star myth. And at the time that "The Apprentice" launched, President -- Donald Trump then -- was reporting $90 million in losses to his businesses. But he, you know, presented as this mogul.

O'BRIEN: You know, I think the beauty of "The Times" reporting in this is that they're putting financial and numeric clothing on things we've already known.

Donald Trump was essentially the punchline to jokes about the excesses of the 1980s when "The Apprentice" came along and resurrected both his reputation with middle America and his financial wherewithal. And -- and I think "The Times" story really shows the extent to which it became this financial geyser for him at a point in time when he really needed it.

"The Times" also, I think, has valuable reporting in their story last night, because there's been this mystery around several hundred million dollars that Trump used to go on a shopping spree to buy golf courses. And there had been speculation that there might be foreign sources that helped him buy those things.

And it turns out that he leveraged some of the money he got from the "Apprentice," along with a borrowing spree against properties like Trump Tower, to make those purchases.

BERMAN: Right.

O'BRIEN: But the idea that, you know, that "The Apprentice" transformed Trump and that Trump was a carnival barker prior to "The Apprentice," and he became the entrepreneur to the masses after, isn't a new thought.

And one of the key things I also think that's really important about "The Apprentice" is that's essentially the springboard he used to get into the White House. The Donald Trump that got recreated through "The Apprentice" is the same Donald Trump --

BERMAN: Right.

O'BRIEN: -- who appealed to voters in 2016.

BERMAN: And Tim, very quickly. Nick Ackerman, who was a Watergate prosecutor, was on our air last night and said that Donald Trump could end up in jail after he's president for some of these charges. We've got to go in 15 seconds, but is there any genuine legal liability here in anything you've seen from "The New York Times"?

O'BRIEN: Oh, a million percent. The Manhattan district attorney is investigating Trump for possible tax and accounting fraud, and that hangs over his head like a sword.

BERMAN: All right. Tim O'Brien, great to have you with us. Thank you very much.

O'BRIEN: Thank you, John.

BERMAN: As you can see, 205,000 Americans have been killed by the coronavirus pandemic. And we learned overnight of a pressure campaign on the CDC to downplay some of the risks. We'll give you the latest, next.

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