Return to Transcripts main page

New Day

Trump and Biden Debate for First Time Tonight; Former Vice President Aide Says, CDC Pressured to Downplay Risks in Reopening Schools; Trump's Massive Debt Stokes National Security Concerns. Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired September 29, 2020 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN NEW DAY: Event of all time.

[07:00:01]

This is a live shot of the stage. John, you know, I sometimes poke on at these very still live shots.

But tonight, there is energy and excitement just sort of flowing off of this stage, because it could be the moment that the entire country -- it's so rare now that the entire country comes together to watch one thing, but this would be it.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN NEW DAY: How would you poke fun at this?

CAMEROTA: Well, sometimes I say, maybe this isn't the most exciting live shot we've ever shown.

BERMAN: I think this is very exciting.

CAMEROTA: I know you do.

BERMAN: I do.

CAMEROTA: And maybe I'm poking fun at you. I know. But it is -- I mean, tonight is so much anticipated. And it's against the backdrop of more than 205,000 Americans dead from coronavirus. How will the pandemic play? How will the new revelations about the president's taxes play tonight? And what about the president's massive debt, which is raising fresh concerns that President Trump is compromised and could be a national security threat?

We have new details about how both candidates are preparing for tonight.

BERMAN: Also breaking overnight, a former top aide to Vice President Mike Pence tells CNN that White House officials pressured the CDC to play down the risk of sending children back to school. This was first reported in The New York Times.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OLIVIA TROYE, FORMER STAFF MEMBER FOR VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE: This was an effort, at times where I would get blindsided, where there would be junior staffers being tasked to find different data for charts that would show that the virus wasn't as bad for certain populations, ages or demographics.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Olivia Troye, you're hearing right there, will be with us later in the broadcast. And this comes on a morning where 23 states, you can see them there in red, are seeing a rise in new cases. And, overnight, the global death toll surpassed 1 million. Worth noting, more Americans have been killed in this pandemic than any other nation on earth.

Joining us now, CNN Political Analyst Maggie Haberman and David Gregory. Maggie is a White House Correspondent for The New York Times.

And, Maggie, let me start with you. What does the White House see tonight? How big do they think this event is? And how is the president approaching it?

MAGGIE HABERMAN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: So, look, John, they know this is an important debate. They also know that, historically, president, incumbent presidents tend to do poorly in the first debate. And this president did poorly in his first debate as a candidate against Hillary Clinton in 2016.

They're concerned because they know that Joe Biden is going to, among other things, focus on the coronavirus, likely call President Trump a liar, and people have been trying to prepare the president for that eventuality. They're also trying to prepare him to say something that sounds empathetic, something that puts him on offense, something that allows him not just to be answering questions about himself all night long.

And, John, that's the fear with him, that his advisers have, right? Is that he basically slides into this familiar pattern of answering all questions about himself, because it's about him, and he likes talking about himself. I think that that is what they have been spending a lot of time in recent days trying to get him focused on, but also trying to find a way to get under Joe Biden's skin.

I think you can expect to hear a lot about Joe Biden's son, Hunter, tonight and how Joe Biden reacts, I think, will be significant.

CAMEROTA: Yes, that will be interesting to see, David. And how far do you think Joe Biden will lean into the tragedy of the coronavirus versus all of the revelations from The New York Times over the past 48 hours, in terms of taxes, national security threat, debt, all of that?

DAVID GREGORY, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I think coronavirus is still the most important issue. I mean, if you're Joe Biden, especially in the unusual circumstances of this campaign, even though you're well known, it's worth reminding all of us that there's a small amount of people who are watching tonight who haven't made up their minds, who might actually be persuaded by what happens on the debate stage. I think he needs to lay out a vision for the country. I think he has to present the contrast between leadership styles, approaches, ability for the country. You have to look on the stage and say, do I want this one to be president or this one, the incumbent to be president? I think that's important for Biden, because he just hasn't been able to establish himself on the campaign trail as he would during normal times.

So, I think the coronavirus is still the most important issue, how he's handled it. I do think he has to go after Trump as a liar, but he doesn't want to spend the whole time trying to fact check him and trying to win on points.

And I think the taxes issue is there. I don't know what the impact is. I think Trump is going to try to spin that as his own form of genius, that he's using the tax code lawfully, but brilliantly, as part of his vast business empire, failed, though, it appears to be in so many different ways. I think he'll look to spin that. And I don't know. There's downsides to Biden getting into that fight.

BERMAN: What about that, Maggie? There are commentators this morning that are saying that this story in your paper, which is a phenomenal bit of reporting over two days, and I know there's going to be more, has an impact that is a little bit outsized compared of other scandals, because it is relatable.

[07:05:09]

Because people can visualize what $750 means to them and their family compared to what it means to Trump and his family. How has it landed inside the White House? Did they feel as if this might be different?

HABERMAN: So, there's concern within the White House, John, for the reason you just said, that people can understand a $750 figure. They can understand that they themselves don't pay that little. And so it is striking to hear that somebody who professes to be a billionaire would be paying that amount of money.

The White House is concerned about trying to approach this issue with the president for a couple of reasons. But one of which is, this is a topping he doesn't like to talk about. This is not something where his aides have -- some aides do, but most of his aides don't have all of the information, where they can just answer questions about this, because this is information he has been withholding from most of his aides and from the public forever.

So this is something that becomes very difficult for them to either respond to or to try to advise him on. And he's going to say whatever he's going to say.

They do recognize in the White House that the president just saying fake news is not going to be enough and that he's going to have to find some kind of answer. I suspect it will be what David just predicted, if he is able to do it in a way where he doesn't just start lashing out. That's the thing that they have suggested to him that he should say. CAMEROTA: David, if we take the 30,000-foot view here, I mean, John and I were just talking about this, this could be the most watched political event of all time.

In 2016, the first debate between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump, 84 million people tuned in. And what's so interesting now, four years later, we're even more fractured. It's so rare that right-wing media watchers get too consume much of the same thing that mainstream media watchers are watching. But tonight, it happens. I mean, basically, unfiltered, for everybody.

And so I guess the question is, what does Joe Biden need to accomplish? Are everybody's biases and preferences so baked in that he just, you know, needs to land a couple of punches and get away unscathed or will he be more aggressive? Does he want to prove some points here?

GREGORY: You know, I think it's a lot of that. I mean, I think you're right, it's such an unusual event, and it's also very old-fashioned. The idea that we're -- you know, that tens of millions of people will watch from all different political beliefs, one event. The problem is we so often see these events through our own filters that are built up through our more narrow media channels. And then it just validates that point of view.

So somebody who's coming to this who doesn't have all of that baked in is going to evaluate style, is going to evaluate -- there's Biden who's going to be vulnerable to Trump's attacks, that he's lost a step, that he can't handle it. It's a little bit like Reagan in 1980. Is he too old? Is he out of it? Here you have, age is a factor for both of these.

But I think the contrast and the vision is so important. I think people are so anxious about what's happening in the country right now. This has been such a monumentally bad year for the country. People feel it at a visceral level. They want to know who's got the ability to lead us out of this. And I think you can visualize that on the stage.

And I think temperament, leadership, vision, actual plans for something that's tangible, like the future of this pandemic, I think those things matter more than, wow, he had a good theatrical moment. Because I think those things in the end don't matter as much.

I've seen so many presidential debates where I think somebody wins and in the end, it doesn't have the impact we think.

BERMAN: So, Maggie, if David is right, then gimmicks and theatrics might not matter as much, and may, in fact, backfire. What do we know about what the White House thinking is on this, on Donald Trump creating some kind of moment?

HABERMAN: Look, I think that they're going to try to, as I said, get under Joe Biden's skin. I think that's going to be in a couple of ways, one of which we'll be talking about, Hunter Biden, one of which will be pointing out areas where Joe Biden himself have said things that are not true, which are generally about his own biography and about aspects of his past.

I disagree with David a little bit, because I actually don't think that most of the things that David just mentioned are going to be what this debate gets graded on, because I don't expect either man, and certainly not Donald Trump, to stand there and talk about their long- term vision about leading us out to the pandemic or leading us out of one of what is one of the worst years in memory in this country.

I think the bar for Joe Biden is very low. And I think the bar for Joe Biden has been set low in part by Donald Trump and in part by the fact that voters are overwhelmingly in polling showing they are tired -- they're worn out by President Trump. And so if Joe Biden is able to stand there and basically be relatively compelling and just show that he is able to have a conversation and he is able to articulate what he's saying, that may be enough for a lot of voters who are tuning in.

[07:10:04]

CAMEROTA: David, ten seconds.

GREGORY: I would just say, I think we're not that far off. Because I think that the idea that he's a likable guy, that is Biden, the idea that he seems trustworthy and stable about laying out a vision for the future of the pandemic, that's the kind of thing that I think can have impact for those worn-out viewers.

I think people who don't like Trump, who think he's a liar, but still think he gets things done in other ways, I think they're less movable if Biden is trying to win on those kinds of points.

BERMAN: You guys are going to have to work out these giant risks between you on your own time. We thank you both for being with us this morning.

CAMEROTA: All right. And we are just hours away from the much- anticipated, long-awaited first presidential debate. CNN's special coverage begins at 7:00 P.M. Eastern.

BERMAN: All right. Developing overnight, we do have more news. Three people have died in the fires in California bringing the death toll in the state to 29. A fast-moving fire has forced tens of thousands of people from their homes in California's wine country. The fires have scorched thousands of acres and burned down a lot of homes and structures.

California Governor Gavin Newsom has now declared a state of emergency in three counties and has asked for federal assistance.

We have some brand new reporting this morning about how the White House pressured the CDC to have downplay the risks of opening schools. Dr. Sanjay Gupta joins us, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:15:00] BERMAN: Olivia Troye, a top aide to -- top former aide to Vice President Mike Pence, confirms to CNN that top White House officials pressured the CDC to play down the risks that coronavirus poses to children so that schools can reopen.

Joining us now, CNN Chief Medical Correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta. Sanjay, these events took place in July, when the various memos and guidance was coming out from the federal government that people were relying on. They were desperate for guidance about how they should open schools if you're a school administrator, and if you're, a parent, how you should consider the choice of whether to send your kid back to school.

And now, we have this reporting this morning, and Olivia Troye is going to be with us a little bit later in the broadcast, that there was political pressure, pressure on the CDC to water down recommendations. What does this tell you?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. No, I think this fits very much with what we were hearing was happening at the CDC and maybe even taking it a step further, you know, there were situations where these documents were just placed on the CDC's website.

You remember, we talked about this with a documents that basically said asymptomatic people did not need to be tested. That document showed up on the CDC's website without having to go through the typical scientific vetting process the CDC is so well known for.

Show the document that was put on the CDC's website, this was back on July 23rd. First of all, just the title of the document was -- is -- the importance of reopening America's schools this fall. That was, again, July 23rd.

It was interesting, because I got calls from people at the CDC right away saying, that is such an editorial sort of headline within the document, something the CDC doesn't typically do. They're stating a point of view in the headline. There's importance of reopening schools.

Of course there's importance of reopening schools, but the first few lines really were about the fact that there could be these significant symptoms of not going to school and, really, as you say, downplaying the risk of the coronavirus itself.

This document did not go through the typical scientific vetting process at the CDC. So it wasn't just pressure -- it was definitely pressure, but it was also this idea that things were just placed on the CDC's website as public health guidance that the CDC didn't necessarily vet through their own process.

CAMEROTA: And, Sanjay, we also know that they sort of went on a fishing expedition to find data somewhere that would fit their narrative. President Trump wanted to be able to say, we're reopening schools. That would be helpful politically for him. And so that didn't go through the typical, as you say, CDC process. They went to the substance abuse and mental health services administration. Maybe they do a valuable service, but not for this, not for infectious diseases with children. That's not bailiwick. But yet, they presented the document.

I'll read it to you what The New York Times reports. The Document worked on by the mental health agencies struck a different tone from the cautious approach being proposed by the CDC, warning that school closures would have a long-term effect on the mental health of children. It said that very few reports of children being the primary source of COVID-19 transmission among family members have emerged, and asserted that children who were asymptomatic are unlikely to spread the virus.

Well, that's not true. Those things are not true.

GUPTA: Right. It wasn't true and they knew it. And the largest sort of study that had been done at that point was a contact tracing study that came out of South Korea, which showed two really important things.

One is that children age 10 to 19 could spread the virus and they could spread it at rates that were very similar to adults, but that children younger than that had had very few contacts over the summer at that point.

So they really weren't a great group to study, because you couldn't tell how much they were spreading the virus. They had mostly been at home over the last several months.

So they led with the, you know, what is factual information about the fact that there was repercussions to not sending children to school, but then really buried the information about the fact that the coronavirus could be spread by children, certainly children as old as ten years old.

So it was really alarming, even at the time. And, you know, look, that document is still up there on the CDC's website. The asymptomatic testing document did get reversed, but this has happened a few times now where things just show up on the CDC's website. There is concern within the organization.

[07:20:00]

They raise the alarm about this, but then really nothing happens and things sort of move on.

BERMAN: Politics is won in some cases over science. We've seen it over again and again over the course of this process. And there's another development overnight on that very front, which has to do with the coronavirus task force itself, and the presence of Scot Atlas, Dr. Atlas, from Stanford, who was a new appointee, right? It does seem as if the president went out in search for someone who conformed to his already preset views on the pandemic, so he brought Dr. Atlas in. And now we're learning there's real differences between CDC director Dr. Redfield and Dr. Atlas.

And also now, Brian Stelter did an interview with Dr. Anthony Fauci where Dr. Fauci weighed in. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: I am concerned that sometimes things are said that are really taken either out of context or are actually incorrect.

BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: But these news stories about Atlas and Redfield, they get to this question of, are the medical voices on the task force working together or working against each other?

FAUCI: Well, most are working together. I think you know what the outlier is.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: You know what the outlier is. You have a PhD in Fauci speak, Sanjay. What did that mean?

GUPTA: No, he's being very clear there. You know, there is a consensus of opinion with regard to some of the big issues, masks, herd immunity, things like that. Maybe there's some differences of opinion around some of the more incremental issues.

But you know it's interesting, just to put this in a clinical context for a second as a doc. I mean, I think most docs would say, it's good for patients to go out and get second opinions especially on things that are not clearly defined.

This is not getting a second opinion or a third opinion. What the president has done here, he has gone doctor shopping. And this happens as well. You go see a bunch of different doctors that are all telling you the same thing, but you'll finally, eventually, if you look hard enough, find a doctor who will give you the medicine that no one else will, will advocate for a treatment that is not recommended, will tell you what you want to hear.

That happens in the real world. The difference is that's one person and their own health. In this case, the president has doctor-shopped on behalf of the nation, and it's not his own health that we're talking about here. It's the health of the nation.

So it is remarkable. Yes, that is Dr. Fauci being sort of as adamant as he can about this issue . It's been frustrating for him. I know it's been frustrating for Ambassador Birx. They were there all the time and now Dr. Scott Atlas is the one in the Oval Office basically who has the president's ear. Or, frankly, whether or not Dr. Atlas knows it, he's just -- the president already knows what he wants Dr. Atlas to say and Dr. Atlas is just repeating it, as you point out.

BERMAN: That is a great way of putting it, doctor-shopping. Thank you very much for being with us this morning. GUPTA: Yes, you got it. Thank you.

CAMEROTA: We want to remember now some of the more than 205,000 Americans lost to coronavirus.

66-year-old Sharon Hunt recently retired after 21 years as an elementary schoolteacher in Milford, Ohio. Just a few weeks into her retirement, both she and her husband, Edward, were diagnosed with the virus. He told CNN affiliate WXIX his wife, was, quote, the kindest heart I've ever known in my life.

Captain Jeff Sewell was an Oklahoma State trooper for 32 years. The highway patrol says he was an enthusiastic participant in many community projects, including the Special Olympics and an annual summer camp for high school students interested in careers as troopers.

John Thrower had been driving city buses in Richmond, Virginia, since 2015. The transit system called him a dedicated employee who worked many hours and days of overtime to get riders where they needed to go. Thrower leaves behind a wife and son. He was just 49 years old.

What a loss of all of these people. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL COHEN, FORMER PERSONAL ATTORNEY TO DONALD TRUMP: His biggest fears that if, in fact, his tax return is released, that there's a whole slew of organizations, of accountants and forensic accountants that will rip through it and he will end up with a massive tax bill, fraud penalties, fines and possibly even tax fraud.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: All right. That was Michael Cohen two weeks ago on New Day, predicting what would happen if his former boss' tax returns became public. Well, now that's happened thanks to The New York Times.

And joining us now is President Trump's former longtime personal attorney, Michael Cohen. He is the author of the book, Disloyal, and he has a new podcast called Mea Culpa.

So, Michael --

COHEN: Hey, Alisyn. It doesn't like I've moved since I saw you about two weeks ago.

CAMEROTA: I'm not sure you have. I've seen you on television a lot. But, Michael, I mean, you predicted it. You knew what was going to happen. That was two weeks ago.

COHEN: Alisyn, I also predicted it going back 19 months to February of 2019, when I said, fact is fact, facts are important. CAMEROTA: Yes, that's why we have you on because you have a crystal ball about all of this stuff, because you worked with President Trump for so long, so you know what might unfold. So let's just start with these new revelations in The New York Times about his massive debt.

So let me just read this to you. He has huge balances on loans soon to come due from Deutsche Bank, including $160 million on his Washington hotel in the old post office building and $148 million on the Doral golf course. Neither of those businesses is turning a profit.

Okay, so what do we need to know now, Michael, about that debt?

COHEN: Sure. So let me just start by saying I was watching Tim O'Brien in your previous segment and actually, it's not accurate. And I think the facts really do matter here. First and foremost, I don't believe in specifically, according to The New York Times' report. Donald Trump does not owe $1 billion. He owes $420 million, according to the report.

Now, that's not an insignificant amount of money, but let's assume that Donald Trump's statements that he's worth $10 billion is not true.

[07:30:00]

And let's just say he's worth $1.6 billion. Well, he has a 25 percent loan to value. That's not the issue.