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President Trump and Democratic Presidential Candidate; Joe Biden Prepare for First Presidential Debate; Reporting Indicates President Trump Paid Little or No Federal Taxes in Recent Years; Former VP Aide: CDC Pressured to Downplay Risks in Reopening Schools. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired September 29, 2020 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00]

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Continues right now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is NEW DAY with Alisyn Camerota and John Berman.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome to our viewers in the United States and all around the world. This is NEW DAY, and what a day it is. It is debate day. I believe we have pictures from Case Western University. This is an exterior shot of the debate hall where it will all take place tonight. It is on that stage where President Trump will face off against former Vice President Joe Biden, the first presidential debate of the season. And it comes at a time when 205,000 Americans have died from coronavirus. We just heard Doris Kearns Goodwin, esteemed historian, say really that's the issue that will be inescapable tonight.

There are other headlines, though, bubbling to the surface. How will the president respond to revelations from "The New York Times" on his taxes, like why he paid just $750 in federal income tax when the average filer paid $12,000. Also questions about the national security risks involved with the $421 million "The Times" says the president owes, coming due, much of it, in the next few years. This morning we're learning brand new details about how both candidates are getting ready to face off.

CAMEROTA: Also breaking overnight, Vice President Pence's former top aide, Olivia Troye confirming to CNN that the White House officials pressured the CDC to play down the risks to children in reopening schools. Olivia Troye joins us live this hour.

This morning, 23 states are seeing new coronavirus cases rise. Overnight, the global death toll from coronavirus surpassed 1 million people. So how will President Trump explain his handling of the pandemic and his shockingly low or nonexistent tax payments on the debate stage tonight? Let's begin our debate coverage with CNN's Jessica Dean. She is live for us in Cleveland. What do we expect, Jessica?

JESSICA DEAN, CNN WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to you, Alisyn. You see, I'm wearing a mask inside the debate hall. It is just one of the many rules that they have put in place in light of the coronavirus pandemic. It's led to some changes. Typically, we would have about 900 people on average inside in the audience for tonight's debate. Instead, there will be about 60 to 70. Everyone will be COVID tested. The candidates will be socially distanced. They will not be wearing masks. The moderator will not be wearing a mask. But there will be no handshake between the candidates due to COVID-19. Typically, of course, that that's the key moment where they shake hands right at the beginning of the debate. That will not be happening.

As for former Vice President Joe Biden, we know that he began his debate prep several weeks ago, starting with small briefing books, talking in small groups with policy aides about specific policies. He graduated over the weekend to full blown debate preparations. He did go through some mock debates, but we're told that he really prefers that his aides pepper him with rapid fire questions.

They're also preparing for personal attacks from President Trump on this debate stage right behind me. They anticipate that that's coming. But they really say for them, it's not up to Joe Biden to be the fact checker, that he needs to be focused on returning the conversation time and time again to two key things that we've heard from Biden over and over again on the campaign trail, Alisyn, and that is the coronavirus pandemic and what they see is Trump's failed response to that pandemic and the ensuing economic crisis that has followed the pandemic. They want to talk about that over and over again, and they feel like that the more that Vice President Biden is talking about that, the better it will be. Alisyn?

CAMEROTA: Jessica, thank you very much for that preview.

So how will President Trump's handling of the pandemic and the new revelations about his taxes play in tonight's debate? CNN's John Harwood is live at the White House with more on how the president is preparing for tonight. What have you learned, John?

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Alisyn, this president has never been big for homework. He prefers to wing it, which is what he has been doing on Twitter and in his daily appearances before the press. He came into the briefing room on Sunday night and made a gesture to Rudy Giuliani and Chris Christie, two of his allies, that he'd been rehearsing with them. But we think that he's only done about two hours of formal preparation.

The president can be expected to throw haymakers at Joe Biden on Hunter Biden, which is something he's raised consistently. He'll talk about the rigged election. He may have surprise guests that he brings with him. His aide Jason Miller has made an allusion to that. We all remember that President Trump brought the women who had accused Bill Clinton of sexual assault to one of the debate with Hillary Clinton.

But the president is going to be walking on that stage Alisyn undress in a couple of important ways. First of all, on his claims of business success, because of that "New York Times" reporting that he paid paltry amounts of taxes, that he had been losing a lot of money, that he's under financial pressure that potentially could pose a national security risk.

[08:05:04]

On his claims that he has handled the COVID crisis successfully, Anthony Fauci has been out the last couple of days saying he's listening to an outlier, Scott Atlas, as opposed to the consensus among scientists. And on his claims that they only way he could lose is in a rigged election, we've got two polls from the last 24 hours from high-quality polling outfits showing the president trailing by nine percentage points in Pennsylvania. That could be the tipping point state. That is not suggestive of anything that would require a rigged election for Joe Biden to win. So we'll see how the president handles himself on defense given those facts.

BERMAN: Yes, John Harwood for us live at the White House. We're in a pandemic, 205,000 Americans have died. This is not a game, so it may be the theatrics don't fall and work the same way they might have in the past.

Joining us now, CNN political commentators David Urban, he's part of President Trump 2020 advisory committee, and Ana Navarro, who is supporting Joe Biden. Ana, you are not shy, period, full stop. And you are not shy about giving advice. So what advice do you have for the former vice president as he takes that stage tonight? What do you think he should do?

ANA NAVARRO, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Look, I think, first of all, he needs to be on point. He needs to be vigorous. He needs to set out his plan for things like dealing with COVID. He needs to be succinct. Sometimes Joe Biden has the tendency of going on a little too long. And he needs to attack. He needs to attack Donald Trump. I think he needs to go places where Donald Trump goes. Donald Trump has no qualms in pushing the envelope and maybe behaving in ways that for Joe Biden is hard. Joe Biden is a gentleman and Joe Biden is civil and Joe Biden has common human empathy and manners. So he can't just stand there and let Trump be Trump without responding vigorously to that.

But I want -- I want to hear him attack on this tax return story. I want to hear him highlight the scrappy guy from Scranton whose father lost his job when he was a child and has seen people scrape to make ends meet all his life, with the Wall Street guy who is gaming the system, inflating assets when it's convenient, deflating them when it's convenient, and just conning the American people and the American treasury.

BERMAN: David, same question. What do you want to hear from President Trump tonight?

DAVID URBAN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: So I think what the president needs to do is highlight the things that he's not. He's not Joe Biden. He's not going to increase your taxes. He's not going to grow the federal government. He's not going to take away your guns. He's not going to do all the things that Joe Biden and the Democratic platform says he's going to do.

With respect to taxes, I just want to point out I made little graph like John had up earlier. So this is the amount that Donald Trump paid in taxes in 2016. He paid $1 million in 2016. And then he paid --

CAMEROTA: That's not what "The New York Times" says.

URBAN: That is what "The New York Times" said -- no, no. Alisyn, that's exactly what the "New York Times" says. No, no, Alisyn, that is not what it says. Alisyn be factual. It says he paid $1 million in 2016, he paid $4.2 million in 2017. Then, Alisyn, what happened was he got -- he got a credit -- a carry forward which reduced his tax liability to $750. That money -- these amounts, $1 million and $4.2 million were rolled forward. So just to be factual, he did not pay $750. He paid $750 plus a $1 million, $750 plus $4.2 million. And what Americans care about, Alisyn --

CAMEROTA: The bottom line on the taxes, where the line is of your tax --

URBAN: No, no, what Americans care about -- let me just finish.

CAMEROTA: -- responsibility was $750.

URBAN: Alisyn, what he paid, he wrote a check for that amount of money, Alisyn. So just be clear, Donald Trump paid $1,000,750 in 2016, $4,200, 750 in 2017, just to be factual, because we care about that. And here's the number that Americans care about. Here's the tax number they care about. Joe Biden's proposed tax plan raises Americans' taxes by $3.4 trillion. That's the tax number Americans care about. They don't care about $750 bucks. They care they Joe Biden is goes to raise taxes.

CAMEROTA: I love your homemade graphics as well, but one second. You know what can clear up this discrepancy, since obviously lots of people are confused about exactly how much Donald Trump paid --

URBAN: You can just put up the graphic of the "New York Times" article.

CAMEROTA: He could release his taxes as every president has for decades. That's what would really clear it up and help Americans understand it.

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URBAN: Well, the "New York Times" -- here's what would really clear it up. Just read "The New York Times" article, Alisyn, put the graphic up.

BERMAN: So David, hang on one second. We want to get Ana in this conversation. "The Times" makes clear that 10 out of the last 15 years, he paid no taxes at all, federal income taxes --

URBAN: John, there's a tax code called business loss carry forward. Do you know the tax code?

BERMAN: Hang on. Ten out of the last 15 years, "The Times" says he didn't pay any taxes, federal income taxes at all. Go ahead, Ana. NAVARRO: First of all, I think it's great to see how much on the

defensive and how much under the skin this tax story is, and David is reflecting that right now. And I think this idea that David just mentioned, that average Americans don't care that the president paid $750 on two years, and many years before that paid zero, nada, zilch, nada, zero, I think that is absolutely wrong, because I think all of those first responders, I think all of those essential workers, I think the people who he's attacked so many times -- undocumented workers. His own undocumented workers, the ones who worked on his -- in his properties, who he fired when the reporters found out he had undocumented workers, paid more taxes than Trump does. I hope Joe Biden brings that up, because absolutely the average American is pissed off at the idea that this rich guy is gaming the system while they are making sacrifices, working two, three jobs at a time to put food on their own table and pay their tax bill.

URBAN: Listen, Ana, you're entitled to your own opinion, but you're not your own facts. Donald Trump paid taxes --

NAVARRO: I would say the same thing to you.

URBAN: -- hold on, ana. Hold on. So he's entitled to what's called a business loss carry forward. Right? He's lost over $1 billion. That loss is entitled to be carried forward for 20 years under the tax code. If you don't like the tax code, change the tax code.

CAMEROTA: Look, part of the issue, David, is that we just had Michael Cohen on, and he said that President Trump's taxes are so byzantine, they're so complicated, there's so many tens of thousands of pages that he has the highest paid lawyers. He pays them more than he pays many years to the U.S. government. So regular people can't do that. They can't alter the tax code to their own preference. So that's what maybe will come up tonight. But let's switch gears --

BERMAN: Yes, I actually think the most important numbers are the ones on the screen.

CAMEROTA: Right. So David, what about the 205,000 Americans who were killed, how will President Trump explain his handling of the pandemic tonight?

URBAN: Listen, it's a tragic number, Alisyn. Obviously, everyone in America would like to see that number as low as possible. My sympathy goes out to everybody. I have friends and -- like everybody in America who has lost loved ones because of this terrible pandemic. I think the president is going to come out and say, look, I did a number of things that at the time were derided. I helped -- I shut down the airports, I closed travel. You could put a split screen up at the same time and President Trump is saying a certain thing, and you have Mayor de Blasio saying the complete opposite, Speaker Pelosi come out and celebrate Chinese New Year. Dr. Fauci, we have nothing to worry about this. This is nothing worse than a regular flu. Early on, lots of people got this wrong, absolutely.

BERMAN: Ana? NAVARRO: Well, listen, though, he's also going to have to explain

those Bob Woodward tapes when we heard him in his own voice acknowledging how dangerous, how lethal this virus was back at the beginning of the year, and then we have seen him downplay it and whitewash it the rest of the time.

I hope that what comes up and he has to explain is the virtually nobody has been affected by COVID line that we heard him say just a few days ago. There's 205,000 families who have lost virtually nobodies. And I can assure you for those families, many of them living in swing states like Florida where I am and Arizona, they are virtually somebodies. They are people, they are fathers, they are mothers, they are sisters, they are brothers, they are children, and they are not virtually nobodies. There is going to be a lot of empty seats around the holidays in America this year, and they are not virtually nobody. And they want to know why the president of the United States is referring to them as such.

And I also want to hear Joe Biden talk about what he would have done differently. So for me, Joe Biden not only needs to bring up the negligence of Donald Trump, the lies of Donald Trump, the fact that he had to be shamed into wearing a mask, the fact that he keeps holding the rallies which might as well be COVID parties all around the country, but I also want to hear positive talk from Joe Biden as to where his experience plays in and what he would have done and would do differently to put us in a better position.

BERMAN: And that's what I mean. That's why I think the numbers that are on the screen may be the most important of the debate.

[08:15:01]

Americans aren't going to be able I think get beyond what's happening with this pandemic which is why theatrics, Ana, might not work.

But if the president brings up Hunter Biden as we've heard some suggests he will repeatedly, how should you think, Ana, Joe Biden respond?

ANA NAVARRO, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Ivanka Trump. You want to bring up Hunter Biden, you want to bring up -- go ahead. Go right ahead.

You know, I think Joe Biden has an answer for that. And I think right now, Donald Trump has to explain why he had his daughter on his corporate payroll and at the same time was paying her $750,000 in consulting fees, which is a tax scam. That is a tax scam.

And hw he's used the bully pulpit of the presidency and the platforms of the government to promote his properties and push money towards his properties, whether it's the websites or whether it's trying to hold the -- you know, G8 at Doral or making his hotels and his golf courses the place where people go. He's going to have to explain all that.

So if he wants to talk corruption, go ahead. Make our day. ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: So, David, how personal do you think,

how personal do you think President Trump will get? Because, you know, he often does do that. In fact, he go -- he insults people during the debate. He sometimes goes after their looks.

DAVID URBAN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah.

CAMEROTA: What should we expect on that front?

URBAN: You know, I would advise against that. Obviously, I think, you know, you stick -- you don't really take the ad hominem attacks, just stick to the kind of policy. The president has got lots of good policy -- you know, we can talk about the economy and the things that the president had done, with this economy, cutting regulation and government. Lots of accomplishments to speak about.

I would talk about that. I would talk about that. How we're going to have a great economy once we, you know, get a vaccine, or the things that are happening with Operation Warp Speed. I would talk about the positives of the future, not dwell on the negatives of the past.

BERMAN: Well, I will be interested to see if the two candidates take that stage armed with as much information and vigor as you two this morning.

Thank you both for being with us. I appreciate it, really. And we'll be watching alongside the both of you.

Really it is the most anticipated moment of the election so far.

URBAN: Thanks, John.

BERMAN: The first presidential debate, Joe Biden/Donald Trump, tonight. CNN's special coverage begins at 7:00 p.m. Eastern Time.

CAMEROTA: OK. Also new reporting this morning on how the White House pressured the CDC to downplay the risk of opening the school. A former top aide to the president tells her story about what she saw behind the scenes, next.

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[08:21:16]

BERMAN: Breaking overnight, a former top aide to Vice President Mike Pence on the Coronavirus Task Force confirms that officials at the White House exerted political pressure on the CDC to minimize the risk of reopening schools for in-person learning.

Joining me now is Olivia Troye. She was one of the vice president's top aides. She left the White House last month.

Olivia, you were quoted in a "New York Times" piece which broke this information, the idea that there was political pressure on the CDC to change what it was saying on reopening schools.

What happened here?

OLIVIA TROYE, FORMER HOMELAND SECURITY ADVISER TO VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE: Good morning, thank you for having me on the show.

Yes, that is correct. What I saw first hand, there were a lot of dynamics internally to the White House and a lot of pressure on the doctors on the task force, especially the CDC and Dr. Redfield and the doctors and the leaders and -- in the Department of CDC on specific changes on guidelines and in this situation, specifically that "The New York Times" reported it was on the school guidelines.

And what I saw firsthand was a lot of the manipulation of the data, figure out how to tell a story that was less grim than the reality really was.

BERMAN: Manipulation of the data. So, explain how this played out exactly.

The CDC wanted to say one thing and the White House wanted to say another?

TROYE: That's correct. In many cases, the CDC would put out these charts and graphics. Dr. Birx would brief them. She did a lot of work every single night. I saw this woman wake up at 4:00 a.m. in the morning, she would use a lot of the CDC data for these task force meetings.

Dr. Redfield would be in attendance. Dr. Fauci would be there as well, where we would review exactly where we were across the country, where the hot spots were and what was happening.

A lot of these discussions also focused on the breakdown amongst age ranges, who we were seeing the most affected by this, was it affecting certain populations? And all of these discussions were being had.

In terms of the manipulation of the data, it was people within the White House specifically tasking more junior level staff to try to find alternate, data that fit the narrative that they wanted, which was it only affects, you know, people above the age of 75 and it doesn't affect younger schoolchildren. It was all part of the narrative of we need to open up these schools, we need to open them up now.

BERMAN: They were trying to minimize the risk of reopening schools and trying to go around the CDC is what I think you're saying or muscle the CDC into conforming to their views. And you were asked to be a part of this?

TROYE: I was. And that's partially why -- that's mostly why I have spoken in the past about the moral struggle of what it's like to be a part of this whole situation. You're constantly trying to do the right thing. I'm a national security professional. I have been doing this for over two decades.

Saving lives is what I'm focused on and protecting Americans and watching this happened first hand was -- was very upsetting. BERMAN: Was it that they didn't believe you think that there were

risks to reopening schools or that these risks existed? Did they not believe in the risk or was it they were trying to give misinformation about the risk?

TROYE: I think it's a combination of both, to be honest. I think there are still people walking around the White House today who don't actually believe this virus is real. A lot of them disregard it.

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Even though as you have seen, we've got over 7 million cases, and we've lost a lot of lives here and we're still watching this globally happen across the world. Everyone's trying to figure out how we get past this.

So I think it was a combination of both and another part of it was trying to fit the data and the guidelines and everything to the president's narrative of, you know, don't mind this. Everything's fine. We're over it. We've done great, time to open back up, get people in schools, get people -- get the country, get the economy going.

It's all part of the greater messaging narrative of what the president has been trying to say. And it's -- it's just factually -- it's not true.

BERMAN: Olivia, if I can ask you a question on a different subject. You were a government employee. You've worked in various sensitive jobs before. You have had background checks no doubt done on you.

What would have happened if in your background check, the FBI discovered that you owed $1 million, $500,000, you had $1 million in debt to various entities, what would have happened?

TROYE: Well, I can tell you for a fact that for me, as a national security profession who's been doing this a long time, we get background checks every five years and there is no way that they would have granted me a clearance or allowed me access to anything sensitive or important. This is something that they really pay attention to because of the fact that it makes you subject to manipulation, bribes and they watch for this with foreign adversaries.

BERMAN: So the fact that the president and "The New York Times" reports has $421 million and some people think it might be higher, and obligations, much of it coming due over the next few years, what's the national security risk there?

TROYE: I think that would be a red flag. I just want to know who does he owe the money to, and they'd be investigating that, and they'd be figuring out why, what caused this debt and the fear of it is that people can use this and hold it over your head. Foreign adversaries, they use this in the national security world and in the intelligence field. This is why they watch for that.

I mean, I can tell you personally, I was questioned for my Department of Homeland Security clearance over missing a car payment when I was in my 20s. I mean, this is fact. And I was a broke college student just trying to make ends meet.

BERMAN: $421 million is a lot more than a car payment.

I need to let you go, Olivia, but you've been on the inside. You were part of these coronavirus task force meetings. You've seen things first hand, 205,000 Americans have now died.

So, as Americans watch this debate tonight and they listen to the president try to explain -- I think that's what he will try to do, his role in what happened and what will happen, what do Americans need to know as they are listening to him?

TROYE: I think Americans really need to remember what happened back in January at the very beginning when we found out about this pandemic and what has happened every single step of the way. They've been told falsities. They've not been told the truth.

And they also need to remember this is a person making decisions on how we respond to events like this. And this was a major one. And it was just very poorly handled. He only cared about himself.

BERMAN: Olivia Troye, we do thank you for being with us and explaining things on various fronts this morning. We do appreciate your time.

TROYE: Thank you for having me.

BERMAN: All right. This morning, there's also growing frustration inside the White House Coronavirus Task Force over the president's new go-to expert. Concerns this morning that this man you're seeing on the screen is misleading the president.

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