Return to Transcripts main page

New Day

Trump Creates Chaos in First Debate, Biden Hits Back. Aired 6- 6:30a ET

Aired September 30, 2020 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Just going to say it like it is. That was a shit show.

[05:59:53]

GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: He took the presidency and the office of the presidency to a new low.

CHRIS WALLACE, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: Are you willing to condemn white supremacists?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Almost everything I see is from the left wing, not from the right wing.

JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: This is a president who has used everything as a dog whistle to try to generate racist hatred.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's the wrong answer. It's always been the wrong answer. The fact that he can't look into the camera and say it is a problem.

TRUMP: You've got to open these states up. It's not fair. It's like being in prison.

BIDEN: He has no intention of doing anything about making it better in terms of your health and your safety.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Alisyn Camerota and John Berman.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome to our viewers in the United States and all around the world. This is NEW DAY. It's Wednesday, September 30, 6 a.m. here in New York. And this is a special edition of our broadcast.

The president refused to condemn violence by white supremacist groups. That's one possible lead from the debate last night. The president refused to tell supporters to remain peaceful after the election. That's another possible lead. Maybe the most appropriate, the president refused to act like an adult

and drove a debate into the gutter.

Now, there's really no question about whether this was good for America. There is a legitimate question about why he thought it would help his campaign.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Former Vice President Biden tried to have a normal debate, often speaking directly to the camera and the American people over President Trump's constant interruptions.

But Biden took his own shots, calling President Trump a clown, a racist, and the worst president ever. Biden also slamming Trump's failed response to the coronavirus pandemic.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: Between 750 and a thousand people a day are dying. When he was presented with that number, he said, "It is what it is." Well, it is what it is, because you are who you are.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: So CNN's Jessica Dean is live in Cleveland with a recap for all of us.

Hi, Jessica.

JESSICA DEAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to you, Alisyn.

If you tuned in last night looking for a policy discussion, learning more about each man's policies, you didn't get much of that. President Trump really plunged that debate into chaos, interrupting, attacking former Vice President Joe Biden almost at every turn. And as hard as Trump tried, though, Biden largely did not take the bait.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DEAN (voice-over): It didn't take long for the first presidential debate to devolve into a chaotic shouting match between President Donald Trump and former vice president, Joe Biden.

BIDEN: Know how strongly you feel. Let -- vote now.

TRUMP: Are you going to pack the court?

BIDEN: Make sure you, in fact, let people know, your senators.

TRUMP: He doesn't want to answer the question.

BIDEN: I'm not going to answer that question, because the question is --

TRUMP: Why wouldn't you answer that question?

BIDEN: Because the question is -- the question is -- TRUMP: You put a lot of Supreme Court justice, the radical left --

BIDEN: Would you shut up, man?

DEAN: For 90 minutes, Trump constantly interrupted Biden's answers and even the moderator's questions and requests, resulting in Americans hearing few details about either candidate's policies.

But one of the president's responses, or lack thereof, heard loud and clear, was his refusal to condemn white supremacist groups.

TRUMP: I would say almost everything I see is from the left wing, not from the right wing.

WALLACE: So what do you -- what are you saying?

TRUMP: I'm willing to do anything -- I want to see peace.

WALLACE: Then do it, sir.

BIDEN: Say it. Do it. Say it.

TRUMP: You want to call them -- what do you want to call them? Give me a name. Give me a name.

WALLACE: White supremacists. And --

BIDEN: The Proud Boys.

TRUMP: Listen, the Proud Boys, stand back and stand by, but I'll tell you what. I'll tell you what. Somebody's got to do something about Antifa and the left.

DEAN: And Biden didn't back down from Trump's name calling, sending some of his own swipes toward the president.

BIDEN: Folks, do you have any idea what this clown is doing?

TRUMP: There's nothing smart about you, Joe. Forty-seven years, you've done nothing.

BIDEN: Let's have this debate and we'll see --

TRUMP: You would have had -- Let me just tell you --

BIDEN: You're the worst president America has ever had. Come on.

DEAN: Still, for most of the night, the Democratic nominee looked to connect to voters by speaking straight to camera, like in this question, asking how they felt about Trump's coronavirus response.

BIDEN: If you believe for a moment what he's telling you in light of all of the lies he's told you about the whole issue relating to COVID. He still hasn't even acknowledged that he knew this was happening, knew how dangerous it was going to be back in February, and he didn't even tell you. A lot of people died. And a lot more are going to die unless he gets a lot smarter.

DEAN: The president once again warned he may not accept November's election results, repeating his false claims that mail-in voting would result in massive fraud. But there's no proof of widespread voter fraud in U.S. elections.

TRUMP: I am urging my people -- I hope it's going to be a fair election. If it's a fair election --

WALLACE: You're urging them what?

TRUMP: -- I am 100 percent onboard. But if I see tens of thousands of ballots being manipulated, I can't go along with that.

BIDEN: No one has established at all that there is fraud related to mail-in ballots, that somehow it's a fraudulent process. He has no idea what he's talking about.

Here's the deal, the fact is, I will accept it, and he will, too. You know why? Because once the winner is declared after all the -- all the ballots are counted, all the votes are counted, that will be the end of it. That will be the end of it.

[06:05:09]

DEAN: Trump looked to spin criticism of his decision to hold large campaign rallies during the pandemic after Biden slammed him for constantly ignoring coronavirus safety guidelines, like wearing masks and social distancing.

TRUMP: We have had no negative effect. And we've had 35, 40,000 people at these rallies.

WALLACE: All right, do you want to --

BIDEN: He's been totally irresponsible, the way in which he has handled the social distancing and people wearing masks, basically encouraging them not to. He's been -- he's a fool on this.

TRUMP: If you could get the crowds, you would have done the same thing, but you can't. Nobody cares.

WALLACE: Gentlemen.

DEAN: And just two days after "The New York Times" report on his federal income tax returns, Trump provided very little defense and no evidence to refute the newspaper's claims.

TRUMP: I paid millions of dollars in taxes. Millions of dollars of income tax. And let me just tell you, there was a story in one of the papers --

BIDEN: Show us your tax returns.

TRUMP: I paid 30 --

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DEAN: A Biden adviser -- despite everything that happened last night, a Biden adviser telling CNN that Biden could not and would not walk away from the next debate.

A senior Trump campaign official telling CNN that, of course, President Trump will be at the next debate.

Alisyn and John, that next debate between Joe Biden and Donald Trump is set for two weeks, in two weeks, in Miami. It is more of a town hall-style debate. So --

CAMEROTA: Thank God.

DEAN: -- we'll see what that brings.

CAMEROTA: Good! I mean, good! I don't know if the American people would tune in for another debate that was in that format. What would be the point?

BERMAN: Yes, again, I think they will like a debate with a moderator. I think that will be something new for the American people. And you know, when you have people in the audience at a town hall, maybe they will step in.

CAMEROTA: They will. I mean, hearing from voters will be different than having a moderator. And I think that that is the only chance we have at hearing real answers that are uninterrupted.

BERMAN: All right. Joining us now, CNN political analyst Toluse Olorunnipa. He's a White House reporter for "The Washington Post." Also with us, CNN political commentator and Democratic strategist Paul Begala, and CNN senior political commentator and former Republican senator Rick Santorum.

Toluse, you've been up all night. You're the one who had to work for a living. I know Rick and Paul, you've been on TV. But he had to write. And you got to write a wrap-up, a piece on this debate.

A lot of people are talking about the chaos the president caused, driving the debate into the gutter. But your lead was on the fact that the president refused to condemn white supremacists, violence from white supremacists. Given the chance, lob the softball of all softballs, he demurred. What did you see?

TOLUSE OLORUNNIPA, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: This was an incredibly easy question for the president to answer. All he had to say was, I denounce white supremacists, any group coming out to the streets armed, seeking conflict in the middle of the streets.

We've seen that over the course of this summer. We've seen different groups espousing support from the president, clashing with protesters. And the president had an opportunity to say, We need to all calm down, we all need to step back.

He could have continued to attack Antifa and leftist violent protesters, which he always does, but, you know, calling your own side to account is something that statesmen do. And that's not something that we saw from the president. Instead, he sort of equivocated. He said, I want the Proud Boys to stand back and to stand by.

And we saw on social media the Proud Boys sort of taking that as a call to arms. They were celebrating. The president giving them legitimacy, sort of saying that, you know, standing by is what they want to do and what they're planning to do and waiting for anything, for more from the president, to show his support for them.

We saw this during Charlottesville in 2017. The president had a clear opportunity to unequivocally denounce white supremacists. And instead, he sort of started equivocating, talking about bad people on both sides, saying people were coming from the left and clubbing the people with the right -- on the right.

So this is a problem the president has had for years. He's had trouble sort of just being clear, speaking with moral clarity when it comes to racial issues. And it was a really tough moment for him the course of the debate, where every time race came up, he seemed to want to defend his supporters, who are overwhelmingly white, and not talk about anything that had to do with diversity or systemic racism or even trainings that are taking place in the government to make sure that there's not racism in the workplace. The president seemed to be upset about that, as well.

So the race issue ended up being a really tough issue for the president last night. Joe Biden was able to attack him on a number of fronts, and the president missed an easy softball where he could have denounced a white supremacist and moved on. But he actually equivocated.

CAMEROTA: Rick, you know who thinks that the president has been clear as a bell? The hard-core hate group that he referenced. They heard him loud and clear. They started printing up T-shirts. They went nuts on social media. They were so excited to get a shout-out. And they were so excited that the president told them to stand by.

[06:10:06]

How else can you interpret that, than as a tease, I guess he would say, for upcoming violence?

RICK SANTORUM, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I agree that the president made a -- made a bad error by not coming out and just saying what he, by the way, he said before. He has condemned these groups before. But for some reason, he -- he didn't. And I think that was a huge gaffe.

And that is sort of typical of the president. When he gets backed into a corner, he doesn't like to be forced to say something. And -- and you know, when -- he -- he made a huge mistake. And I'm -- again, you can't say I'm anything other than disappointed.

Although, I would tell you, with all due respect, that Joe Biden also didn't condemn his people. He said, Antifa was more of an idea than it was a group. That's just ridiculous.

CAMEROTA: He was quoting the FBI director.

SANTORUM: Yes, well, I'm just -- I'm just saying, I don't think anybody watching what's going on these last few months would agree with that analysis. I mean, you see them out there and they are, in fact, causing, you know, lots of -- lots of violence and -- and across America.

So I think -- I think the president was right in pointing out that -- that the left is out there, you know, in Portland and lots of other places, causing violence, and was legitimate. And the fact that Biden didn't go after his own was equally as reprehensible.

BERMAN: Well --

CAMEROTA: You think -- wait a second. I mean, you think that Biden -- Biden, who was quoting the FBI director, was the same as President Trump saying to stand by to the hard-core white supremacist group, as the ADL labels them?

SANTORUM: I'm -- I'm just -- Well, that's the American Defamation League. I'm not sure I would use them. They -- they claim that the Family Research Center is a -- is a hate group. So that -- you know, you're not quoting a particularly --

CAMEROTA: How would you describe them?

BERMAN: How would you describe Proud Boys, Rick?

SANTORUM: I don't -- can't really. I don't know that much about them.

BERMAN: Sure you do. Yes, you do. Yes, you do.

SANTORUM: I don't. I haven't read that much about them.

BERMAN: You know they were in Charlottesville. You know that --

CAMEROTA: Look into it.

BERMAN: -- one of the guys in Proud Boys was one of the leaders in Charlottesville. These are people who are widely described as -- as white supremacists here and are connected, in some cases, to calls for violence. So that's who they are.

Paul, take a step back. Big picture --

SANTORUM: I'm just saying that he should -- he should condemn -- he should have -- he should have answered the question straight up.

BERMAN: OK.

SANTORUM: I'm not saying he shouldn't have. All I'm saying is that Joe Biden didn't go out of his way and condemn the left, either.

BERMAN: Paul, take a big step back here on this debate. A lot of people have commented on the chaos. I'm not sure that goes far enough or I'm not sure that that's fair in this case, because that gives us a sense that it's a pox on all houses here, which this isn't. This was chaotic really because of one person on that stage. What did you see?

PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, I saw -- I saw must-flee TV, John.

It was the loudest, rudest, worst television I've ever seen. And I hosted "CROSSFIRE" for three years. OK? I'm an expert on lousy television, on screaming. And it was obscene.

It's like you take your kid to the circus, and the chimpanzee has rabies and he's throwing poo. And then you say, Well, let's make that chimpanzee president. You know, it's just -- it was just the most appalling thing I've ever seen.

I have to say, Rick has said something very, very unfortunate. It was not a mistake. It was intentional. Mr. Trump intentionally is stoking a neofascist organization to commit violence.

That was not a mistake, Rick. That was an intentional incitement of violence, just as when he was in Charlottesville, our president said the six most disgraceful words in presidential history, "very people on both sides" --

SANTORUM: He -- (UNINTELLIGIBLE). You guys are misquoting him. You've always misquoted him.

BEGALA: Excuse me! I did not interrupt you while you were -- excuse me, I did not interrupt you, Rick, while you were defending a man who was calling out neofascists.

This man is -- he said he wouldn't recognize the results of the election if he didn't like it. He told those Proud Boys to stand back and stand by. He was doing this on purpose.

It was not -- A mistake is when you say "Slovenia" when you mean "Slovakia." This was an intentional incitement of violence against his fellow Americans.

CAMEROTA: Rick -- Rick.

SANTORUM: Look, I don't think it was an intentional incitement of violence and -- but I do think it was a horrible mistake.

CAMEROTA: Rick, I'm just confused about that. How else do you interpret "stand by"?

SANTORUM: Look, I -- I think the president -- it's funny that you always say the president is saying things he doesn't mean all the time, except when he says something that you -- that you find outrageous, and then he means it.

CAMEROTA: Well, you tell me, Rick. What does it mean? What does "stand by" mean?

BEGALA: He not only said "stand by," Alisyn. He said, somebody has to do something about the left.

CAMEROTA: Yes. What does that mean?

BEGALA: Who's somebody and what's the something? Heather Heyer is dead because of far -- a far-right neofascist who murdered her in cold blood in Charlottesville. And he, after that murder, said there were very fine people on both sides.

SANTORUM: Yes. Look, all I'm saying is that I agree with you. He made a horrible mistake. He should have condemned it, and he's going to pay a price for it, as he should pay a price for it.

[06:15:06]

I just don't think that -- that -- that the president is out there encouraging people to violence, because you know, the president is for law and order, period. And he's for law and order against the right and law and order against the left. And that's -- he stands with police, period.

And so to suggest that he wants the right to -- to harm police when he's getting endorsements from all these police organizations, I just don't think that fits.

CAMEROTA: Rick, it's not that he wants the right to harm police. It's that he is open to violence. In fact, he's teasing it. And this isn't the first time he's done it.

SANTORUM: Again, he made a mistake. I absolutely -- you know, he should the condemned for what he did. But all I'm saying is, I think -- and this is sort of typical. That you sort of take it one step too far. And I understand why you're doing it, because he made a mistake, and he shouldn't have done it.

CAMEROTA: We're taking it one step too far?

SANTORUM: But I don't think it -- I don't -- I don't think -- I don't think his --

CAMEROTA: When the president tells a hate group to stand by? I think you're misplacing the blame here, Rick. You know, sometimes you have to, as Maya Angelou says, when somebody shows you who they are, believe them. I mean, at what point are you just going to believe that he sides with white supremacists?

SANTORUM: He stands for law and order. And so to suggest that he is -- he is encouraging people to not be lawful and orderly, is, I think, wrong. I mean, I think that anything --

CAMEROTA: But his words --

SANTORUM: The president, whether it's left or right, he stands for law and order.

CAMEROTA: That's what he says.

SANTORUM: That's the point I'm trying to make.

BERMAN: All right, guys.

BEGALA: But that's not what he said last night. He did not say that last night. He did not say that after Charlottesville.

I agree. He was wrong. He should be condemned. I don't know what you're -- I don't know how many times can I say that. I mean, he should absolutely be condemned for not doing what he did. And he's created this -- this -- this contradiction in my mind of someone who says he's for law and order, and then doesn't condemn groups that are -- that are not being lawful and orderly. That's wrong.

BEGALA: It's not even just law and order, though. Here's what Ronald Reagan said about the Klan, Rick.

CAMEROTA: Quickly.

BEGALA: And Reagan is somebody you greatly admire, I know.

SANTORUM: I don't think you're really --

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: He said he had no tolerance for the Klan. He said the politics of racial hatred and religious bigotry practiced by the Klan have no place in this country. That's what Ronald Reagan said about white supremacists.

SANTORUM: And so did -- and so did Donald Trump.

BEGALA: Why can't Trump say that?

SANTORUM: Yes. Donald Trump has said that about the Klan.

BEGALA: What? No.

BERMAN: Listen, Donald Trump took so many passes on condemning the Klan. You know, he's intentionally walked 12 times on that one, Rick.

Here's what we're going to do. We've got a lot more to discuss in this debate last night. Who did it help? Why did the president think that dragging this debate down might help him? We'll discuss, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: When you wrestle with a pig, you both get dirty and the pig likes it, to quote Mark Twain.

Back with us is Toluse Olorunnipa, Paul Begala, and Rick Santorum.

Toluse, I want to talk for a second about the style, OK, the style that we saw on stage last night. Something has shifted with President Trump. He didn't do this four years ago. Yes, he threw, you know, different inflammatory comments at his -- at the candidates back then, but he could sit still for -- to listen for a paragraph back then; and now he can't. He was incapable, incapable of not interrupting, of not speaking over. Something has devolved in his style. And he was particularly red-faced and angry.

And Joe Biden looked, you know, more level. He was level. He was calmer. I mean, all can I assume is that, after four years of firing people who disagree with him in the White House and only going on FOX, he's not used to being challenged. What did you see in the styles last night?

OLORUNNIPA: Yes, I think this was a debate in which temperament ended up being sort of the major difference between the two candidates. They did talk about policy, but that sort of got lost in the wash between all of the interrupting and the back and forth and the name calling.

And what I saw from President Trump was a president who sees the polls. His internal polls show the same thing as the public polls. He sees himself behind. He sees himself losing. And it's sort of a foreboding, dark message from the president that he's putting forward. His image is coming across as sort of very angry. It's not the sort of morning in America popular, positive message that you might expect from a president in the middle of his first term. Instead, it was very negative, very dark.

And that is not what you expect from a president trying to convince moderate voters to come to his side. It seems like he was trying to rally his base, rally the angry members of his base to vote because they're angry or to vote because they're afraid and not to have anyone vote because they're hopeful.

There was no hopeful message. There was no message of remorse for the 205,000 plus who have died. He said, you know, if you had to go through what I was put through with the coronavirus. So there was a lack of sort of empathy, a lack of positivity, and there was a lack of humor.

Four years ago, at some times, the president at least showed a little bit of humor with Secretary Clinton at times. There was a lack of that. The president was very negative, and he was very nasty, going after Joe Biden's children. And there was just sort of a lack of fight in this debate. And I think that makes it hard for the president to convince voters to vote for him.

BERMAN: There was nothing fun about last night, nothing even close. It was a tragedy, but a tragedy written by one person. As I said, this was only chaotic because one person crashed that train.

And Paul, my question to you, as a guy who's, you know, been a chief strategist for campaigns before, if you're losing, if you're getting crushed with suburban women around the country, with voters that you need, how on earth does this display help you?

BEGALA: Yes, I don't think it does. I don't think there was anything strategic about this.

The ABC/"Washington Post" poll has President Trump losing women by 31 points. He's losing the suburbs. He's losing young people. He's losing people who went to college. None of those audiences are particularly attracted by the performance you saw last night.

And in 2016, Toluse makes a really good point. 2016, obviously, I didn't like Trump, I didn't support him, but he had something to say: Build a wall, repeal and replace Obamacare, drain the swamp. There was none of that.

In fact, my ace researcher found the most interesting statistic last night, my son Patrick. He's a Poli Sci major. He said, in the first 45 minutes, Trump used the word "socialist" 11 times. OK, I may agree or disagree, but that's a critique of Biden's idea and his party's, his party's ideas.

In the second half of the debate, he only used it twice. He lost the thread of his own critique of his opponent and instead just kind of went mad. He was unhinged. This is a guy who's not well.

CAMEROTA: Rick, I know that you felt that the president came in hot. He stayed at that decibel level. And I think that -- I mean, I'm reading your notes, that you said that you felt that -- you think that he feels aggrieved. Is that the right strategy?

SANTORUM: Well, no, it's not the right strategy. Look, I think what the calculus here was based upon, what Donald Trump has been saying and talking about to -- to -- about Joe Biden for the past, you know, nine, ten months, maybe even longer, Sleepy Joe. I think he felt like if he went in hot, that he could -- he could disrupt Joe, he could throw him off his game and -- and show that he's not -- he's not fit to do battle.

And while I certainly don't think Joe Biden's performance was particularly good, and I think he did get in the mud and -- and he threw some, I think, obviously pretty bad things at the president, calling the president a clown, calls him a racist.

I mean, you know, Joe -- Joe was wrestling pretty heavily in that mud for a while. The reality is, I don't think it -- I don't think he accomplished what he set out to do, which was to show that Joe Biden somehow wasn't up to it.

I think Joe Biden didn't have a great debate performance. I don't think he defended himself particularly well, and I don't think he landed very many effective attacks on the president. But I don't think -- I don't think he showed that he couldn't stand in there and go toe- to-toe for 90 minutes.

BERMAN: Just to be clear, Rick, last night you said you thought the president hurt himself. Do you still feel that way?

SANTORUM: Yes, I do. No, look, I think that the comments that Paul made about -- about suburban voters and -- and all the other voter groups that I think are important to this -- this president to do -- to do better with, I think that -- that approach did not do well. And maybe the fact that -- that Biden didn't sort of collapse, if you will, he kept the attacks up even longer than maybe he otherwise would have done.

CAMEROTA: Rick, Paul, Toluse, thank you.

BERMAN: Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: And John, thank, all very much, for your perspective on this.

All right. Now to this, New York City reporting its highest coronavirus positivity rate in months. This is just as public schools reopen, and indoor dining is supposed to open today.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)