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Trump Hospitalized at Walter Reed After COVID-19 Diagnosis; Trump Goes to Walter Reed After COVID-19 Diagnosis White House Says Out of an Abundance of Care; Two GOP Senators Also Test Positive for COVID-19. Aired 12-1a ET
Aired October 03, 2020 - 00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[00:00:22]
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: All right. Hello, everybody. I'm Chris Cuomo. This is a special, live, late-night edition of PRIME TIME on a big, breaking news night. I am joined by Don Lemon, who's been carrying the coverage for the last couple of hours.
The headline remains the same, but the context has changed. The president still hospitalized at Walter Reed Medical Center in Maryland. We know why. His COVID-19 diagnosis. But where did he get COVID-19?
Now, we're going to get to that in a second. There has been a little bit of a change in his treatment. We know that earlier he had had an experimental drug, a drug cocktail, they're calling it, with antibodies. Proteins that might help him from a company called Regeneron. It had to be authorized through the FDA for what they call compassionate use because it's still in the testing phase. Unusual.
Now we are told, Don, that he's taking, what, Remdesivir, right?
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: Remdesivir. Yes. And that he was -- he's not requiring oxygen. Taking Remdesivir. But specialists recommended that he go on this Remdesivir. And also, saying that they've moved him because of -- in consultation with other people.
But here's the thing. And you're going to get into all of this. That's going to be your news coverage. Think about this, Chris. We've got the president of the United States. We've got the first lady. We've got the chairwoman of the RNC. We have Hope Hicks, who is a counselor to the president. We have two Republican senators who are on the Judiciary Committee going to be deciding about Amy Coney Barrett going to the Supreme Court.
We have Kellyanne Conway, senior counselor -- former senior counsel to the president. We have the president of Notre Dame. And we have now his campaign manager, Bill Stepien. This is the top level of the presidency and the West Wing.
CUOMO: What do they all have in common?
LEMON: They were all at that event on Saturday is what they all have in common. That's what we can surmise from this. CUOMO: Either at the Rose Garden event and/or --
LEMON: Debate prep.
CUOMO: -- the events immediately succeeding them. The debate prep. So that's the change in the context is, you know, poor Hope Hicks. First of all, wish her well. Wish them all well. I've had this.
LEMON: All well, yes.
CUOMO: I wish it on no one, and hopefully they all have much, much milder situations than I had. But she's getting all this stink on her, like she's the one who got the president sick.
LEMON: We don't know that.
CUOMO: Well, not only do we not know it, it is getting increasingly improbable. Why? You were talking a little bit with Dr. Wen about this. If you and I are together, God forbid, and I have COVID and I find out I have COVID tomorrow morning. They're not going to test you, and you're going to be positive the next day. That is highly unusual. OK? In fact, I tested negative two days before I tested positive. Why?
LEMON: I went through it with you. I remember.
CUOMO: The virus has to build up.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: So the fact that the president gets tested and -- you know, a day after Hope Hicks and is positive does not make sense to a lot of clinicians. What does make sense? Now what I'm going to be spending time with at the top of the hour here is going back to Saturday. And it is looking more and more like a super-spreader event. What does that mean? Go ahead.
LEMON: Chris, but you said -- here's what you said. As we were talking in the break, and I said, you know, I want to talk about this with you. It did not have to be this way. All of those folks there, they know the recommendations from the administration themselves. Some of the people who were there probably help to put those recommendations into place or advise the president about them. The CDC put those recommendations in place.
And then you see these people who are at the top levels of our government, right? Again, we wish -- we wish all the people affected well. We want them to have speedy recoveries. But there -- it's do as I say, and not as I do because they come there. Some of them, we are told, were wearing masks when they got to the event. And then took them off. Much as what we saw at the debate. The Trump family coming in wearing masks. Then immediately taking them off.
I'm not sure if you interviewed one but I saw someone on CNN saying we were outraged because they were putting our health in jeopardy because they sat there.
CUOMO: Norm Ornstein. He was on with Erin Burnett. I'm with you.
LEMON: Yes. They arrived moments before the debate. The folks couldn't get up and leave and they still -- you know, it did not have to be this way.
CUOMO: And somebody went up to them and offered them masks and they said no.
LEMON: No.
CUOMO: I would tweak two things on that. One, there are people at that super-spreader event and that just means that somebody there or a couple of people there had a ton of virus in them. They were crazy contagious. Doesn't mean that they were going to be crazy symptomatic. You can have a ton of virus in you and be contagious and be asymptomatic or have mild symptoms or not come into the phase where you have heavy symptom, you know, aspects to you yet.
[00:05:08]
But that's what a super-spreader event is. I think there are a lot of people at that Rose Garden ceremony for Judge Coney Barrett who fought the CDC guidelines. Who fought to have them watered down. And it's not do as I say, not as I do. He has been telling people not to do it. Don't wear the mask. It's a joke. The whole thing is a joke.
LEMON: You saw him today, though. What happened today?
CUOMO: Now he had a mask on.
LEMON: Him and the entire staff wearing masks.
CUOMO: Because he's sick and now they're all wearing masks and that is my hope. OK. Look. Again, we have to say it, not just because it's perfunctory but because it's humane. You don't want people getting sick.
LEMON: Of course not.
CUOMO: That's not what we're about. Two reasons. One, because it's not right. And two, don't be what you oppose. You know, people who want to come after the president and his cronies because they think they're mean and they do dirty things. Well, don't be like them.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: Wish him well. You don't want him to be sick.
LEMON: There is a difference, Chris, between someone going, oh, that's not what anyone is doing. You can hold two thoughts. You can wish the president well, wish Hope Hicks, Kellyanne Conway, Bill Stepien, all of them. You can have decency but also point out the facts. And pointing out the facts does not mean that you are being rude or crude. It's just the facts. We know what this administration has done over the course of this virus.
CUOMO: Right. And it's a shame.
LEMON: And we know where they have come to now. But I have to say because --
CUOMO: It's a shame.
LEMON: You can kick me off your show whenever you're ready because I know this is a reverse of what we do. But I tell you one thing that I did not see in this memorandum from the president's doctor. I did not see hydroxychloroquine or any of the other things that the president has been touting.
CUOMO: There's not enough science to support it.
LEMON: There you go.
CUOMO: Remdesivir. They've been doing more with it. Look. It's not 100 percent thing either. Neither is the experimental drug he took. Now, I had the head of the company on. They say the returns are good so far.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: But it's in the testing phase. We don't have great ammo against this thing. There is no question that them throwing these things at the president is a sign of urgency. It doesn't mean that he is in extreme sickness. You just saw, he just tweeted a little while ago. But I will say --
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: You don't often hear him say that he thinks anything.
LEMON: Well, you know this, Chris.
CUOMO: He says everything in a declarative voice.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: Him saying I'm doing well, I think.
LEMON: But when is the last time you heard him say love? I mean, wow. But listen to this.
CUOMO: Being sick can change you.
LEMON: Yes. It can change you. You know you've gone through this and you're right. It doesn't mean anything when you see all of these things about he doesn't need oxygen, Remdesivir, and on and on. But if you're going to do these things, if you're going to try these -- these early approaches, these anti-retrovirals, do it early, right? Isn't that what the guidance is?
CUOMO: It is, depending on what we're talking about. Some of the drugs are, you know, like hydroxychloroquine is a malaria drug. It deals with inflammation in lung tissue. Remdesivir, you know, as Sanjay was explaining to you earlier in your show, it does different things. So depending on what your symptomology is, it can be helpful. But we don't have anything specifically for this.
That's why he is taking the zinc and I'm sure they've given him an anti-fever drug and, you know, for body aches. You know, he's just at the beginning of this. And I hope it stays mild and he's certainly in the right place. We've only got one of him. And if they need to do anything, even something like an IV for more fluids, you know, it's better to not have to risk the trip once somebody's really feeling lousy.
But I will tell you this. People have to be realistic about the time horizon here. Even if he has a miracle recovery. Let's say a week from now he feels 100 percent. That doesn't mean he's not contagious. He's going to be out of commission for a while. And if he goes back to holding rallies after this, it'll be the lowest point in his presidency because he has just become the best message to America to take this seriously.
I wish him and his wife and everybody else well. But I'll tell you what. This is looking more and more like it came from that Rose Garden ceremony. It never had to be held like that. It shouldn't be held at all. And it should be a message to America.
All right, brother. They're telling me I got to go to Kaitlan Collins. I love you. Get some rest.
LEMON: I'll see you. Have a good one. Have a great show.
CUOMO: I hope --
LEMON: All right. Thank you.
CUOMO: All right. Let's go to White House correspondent Kaitlan Collins. Thank you very much for burning the midnight oil here with us, Kaitlan. The idea of the ever-expanding number of people who are testing positive seem to share in common having been at that Rose Garden ceremony or with the president immediately thereafter.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. It's that Rose Garden ceremony for Amy Coney Barrett or a lot of this has to also seemed to do with the overlap for that debate prep that the president did, whether it was going to Cleveland where the president or prepping with him because it is an enormous amount of Republican senior officials that we are now seeing test positive for coronavirus.
[00:05:00]
And, Chris, it is so remarkable, and I'm not sure anything like this has ever happened in modern history, where the president, who is up for re-election in just about 30 days, has tested positive for coronavirus and of course is out of commission for at least the next several days. And now his campaign manager has as well.
I don't think we've ever seen a situation where something has affected both the president and his campaign manager in this way. Just such a short period before the election, but now we are witnessing this on a broader scale where it's not just the president and the first lady and Hope Hicks. But also it's the Kellyanne Conways, the Ronna McDaniels, the Thom Tillises, the Mike Lees, now the Bill Stepiens.
All of these people who are now testing positive for coronavirus and we're finding all of it out within less than 30 hours. It is incredibly remarkable and it's really hard to find anything to compare it to. And in the words of Mark Meadows, the chief of staff, said today, he doesn't think this is the end of it. They think there are going to be more White House officials who could potentially test positive following this outbreak that we have seen in the president's inner circle.
And the question, of course, is just how many more are there to come? And what is going to be the outcome of the president's health? Because we've already seen just how dramatically things have changed from when I was talking to you 24 hours ago, when the president had not yet gotten his test result back. And now he's in the hospital taking experimental drugs, just started Remdesivir.
And we are getting updates from his doctor on what's going on and what he's being treated with, and what they think the next few days are going to look like for him.
CUOMO: First of all, Mark Meadows came out to talk to the press today. He had no mask on. He was at the event, wasn't he?
COLLINS: Yes. Mark Meadows with no mask came out to brief reporters and spoke to them and defended the fact that he was not wearing a mask by saying he was distanced from them even though he wasn't really that distanced. And of course --
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: He wasn't distanced from them. Listen, hopefully there's going to be a change.
COLLINS: You'd think he would wear a mask right after his boss --
CUOMO: Yes. Also have you heard anything about their contact-tracing efforts? And how closely in contact they've been with the people who were at that event specifically, including, and maybe especially, this inner circle of people? Has anybody said anything to you about how frequently they've been in touch? Or what kind of care they've coordinated? Or anything like that?
COLLINS: So it's a mixed review because we have been told they are doing contact tracing and they started it after Hope Hicks tested positive yesterday morning. They started reaching out to officials. But there are several key officials that we know they didn't reach out to. The Biden campaign, of course, which the president shared a stage with them and they were in the same room as them, without wearing a mask, on Tuesday night.
But also, Chris Christie. Someone who helped the president get ready for debate prep, along with Bill Stepien, his campaign manager, and Kellyanne Conway. Two out of three who have tested positive. Chris Christie says he was not informed that Hope Hicks had tested positive. He found out about it in the media. He said that on television earlier today. So you have to question what the level of contact tracing is. We do know in some part they're doing it. That's why --
CUOMO: Chris Christie is another guy we are waiting to hear from. Rudy Giuliani.
COLLINS: Yes.
CUOMO: That's another guy we're waiting to hear from. All right. So let's see what they put out. My sense is, from talking to a lot of people in and around this event, the White House has ghosted them. Is not coordinating the testing. Gave them those rapid tests but those rapid tests can give you false information. They're not perfect. So now all these people are scrambling to get their own tests, wherever they live or wherever they're set up. And it's really interesting.
You know, gets back to this idea of loyalty in this White House. You know, supposedly, Trump's all about loyalty. I have always argued that he's really about fealty. You do for him. It doesn't mean it's reciprocal. And now you're hearing about all these people having to get themselves tested and figure it out. And that's one of the reasons the information is just dripping out.
Kaitlan, thank you very much. I don't want to hold up your night. If you hear anything that's important, come back. Otherwise, get some rest. I'm sure they're going to need you all weekend long.
All right. Let's turn to the medicine side. Chief Dr. Sanjay Gupta.
Sanjay, this smells bad, brother. Him testing positive right after she gets tested positive smells bad. I don't know that it works like that. I mean, we know, in my own situation, but I've never heard of anybody being close to somebody and then the next day, getting tested and they're positive. And why is that?
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. No. I agree with you, Chris. The reason that is, is you think about it, you get an exposure. You now have the virus in your system. What happens? Well, the virus starts to replicate. At some point, it's going to replicate to a level that's detectable. And the question that you're raising is, so what point can you actually detect it? What point will a test actually pick it up?
And that's where, you know, it's this four to five-day, sort of, timeframe. It's not, you know, an exact sort of thing. But you're right. It's very unlikely to be exposed, you know, right now and then immediately test positive. That wouldn't happen. If you test positive right after this exposure, it probably means you had a previous exposure four to five days ago. And so this becomes a bit of a medical investigation.
[00:10:06]
There is another piece of evidence to make your point there. And that is, that you typically wouldn't test positive and then immediately start to develop these significant symptoms requiring hospitalization. So lag time between exposure and testing positive. And then also lag time between the testing positive and hospitalization for those who do end up needing hospitalization. So I think that this -- we're backing up the calendar now. Right?
Maybe to this Saturday event that you were showing. Maybe even earlier than that. But it's a good chance that the -- that the president had been exposed much earlier than, you know, Wednesday or Thursday.
CUOMO: Weren't we under the understanding from the White House that he gets tested every day? And so do the people around him?
GUPTA: This -- right. That's what I've heard. I -- I would be really curious to see when his last negative test was. Again, if he had truly been negative all week and then suddenly tested positive, what, today, I guess, earlier today and then -- or yesterday. Days are all mixed up. But whatever day and then -- and then he immediately started developing symptoms. That -- it just doesn't track, Chris.
CUOMO: Doesn't smell right. And I'll tell you. This Saturday event --
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: This Saturday event -- look, I think Hope Hicks is the canary in the coal mine. OK. She's not the super spreader. She didn't make him sick. She didn't make all these people sick. She was proof that they were all going to get sick from the event where she got sick. And if we look at this Saturday event, the Supreme Court nomination, and rally, September 26th in the Rose Garden -- are you guys ready with the graphic about who is there? Who got sick?
All right. I'm waiting on this full screen. Should not be this hard to get. That it is a picture of everybody who was there and who's tested positive. There is no other event that we have to contextualize. We have no other event where you've had a bunch of people who were all there get sick within the same timeframe. And, you know, it's looking more like that. So that's not what's curious. It's so then what?
So this was the event, right? And you see typical Trump outing, right? Some masks. Mostly not masks. All really together for an extended period. This is also clinically defined as really stupid in a pandemic. OK? And that's why this is so regrettable. Of course, we want people to get better. There's the attorney general of the United States. The woman two away from him has a visor on. The -- what was that? That was the chief justice there. No mask. I mean --
GUPTA: Yes.
CUOMO: This is crazy. The CDC that they oversee has been telling everybody not to do this. And they did it because they are so strong. And that's the regret here. Now so we start counting forward. Saturday. Sunday, Golf, debate prep, and a press conference. Later Saturday, he's at a rally in Middletown. Sunday, he's golf and debate prep. Monday, he is at the White House, he's seeing people. In fact, ironically, he appears in the Rose Garden to hail a new testing strategy for coronavirus. We're rounding the corner, Trump said at that. Tuesday is the presidential debate. Chris Wallace is carping saying that he didn't get tested there.
GUPTA: Right. Right. CUOMO: He's got Dan Scavino. He's got Hope Hicks. He's got Ivanka.
Again, Hope Hicks Tuesday, testing positive Wednesday, doesn't make lot of sense, especially when they say Wednesday morning she tested positive -- she tested negative. Now do we believe that? That's another problem here. Do we believe any of this? Do we believe that we're learning all of this for the first time?
I believe that about the outer circle, Sanjay. The Kellyannes and them?
GUPTA: Yes.
CUOMO: But I don't know about when they knew inhouse. I don't know. And then Wednesday he goes to Minnesota. You know, Thursday, he does this private fundraiser. A lot of people.
GUPTA: So five states. Five states. Washington, D.C. Lots of close contacts. I think -- I think your point about the fact that we were under the belief the president was getting tested every day. I think that we're going to find out that wasn't the case. And at some point, complacency set in with regard to that strategy. By the way, it's not a really good strategy.
CUOMO: Well, let's hope that's the case.
GUPTA: They're just tests.
CUOMO: Let's hope.
GUPTA: Yes.
CUOMO: Let's hope because if he was being tested every day, they almost certainly would've flagged him at some point. And if we find out that they knew this before now and only told us about it now, I mean, that -- that is one of the worst things that we will ever have heard even about this president. So let's play to the virtue for a second.
GUPTA: Yes.
CUOMO: That this is the time he got tested. That means it was misfeasance of not testing him all along.
GUPTA: Right. Exactly. I think it's a very fair question to ask, when is the last time the president had a negative test? I think within that answer we might have -- you know, it might actually paint a clearer picture.
Chris, the other thing, and I know you -- you've talked about this as well. But we have this clearer picture of this Rose Garden ceremony and all these people who are dignitaries, and you know, we're hearing about -- first of all, they can get tested.
[00:20:02]
We're hearing about their positive results. I mean, this is what we've been saying about these outdoor rallies for some time. And certainly the indoor rallies. We never hear about those folks afterwards. They come from different places. They may not be able to get tested. There's a lag time.
CUOMO: The president said at the debate, we've had no incidents. Can't say that anymore.
GUPTA: There's no way we could know that. Right. He can't say that anymore. And there's no way that we could have known that because there was so little testing and even less contact tracing. The virus is contagious. That hasn't changed.
One thing I thought was interesting. Joe Alan, who Don had on, and Erin Bromage, who is a viral dynamics expert.
CUOMO: Yes.
GUPTA: They both also made this other point that, you know, these events occur. But then there's all these other surrounding events, too, right? People get together for a smaller group maybe at an inside event and things like that. So you have the mass event, which is obviously concerning. But almost by definition, you have other smaller events as well, which could -- which could represent other sort of clusters as well.
So that's going to be part of the contact tracing. If you start to see lots of people, do these -- all these people besides being at that Rose Garden ceremony, do they have something else in common? Do they get together for an event, you know, inside somewhere at the White House or somewhere else as well? I don't know. But this -- you can just get an idea of the medical investigation that sort of goes into this.
CUOMO: It would be nice to find out who it was. And not for public consumption but just to figure out the extent of your contact tracing. I mean, it's just the irony that we have this cluster exploding inside the White House. A place that should be safest of all.
GUPTA: Yes.
CUOMO: And, you know, I heard his son talking earlier tonight about when he'll be able to get back out on the trail. You talk about the nexus of ignorance and arrogance. You find that spot, and it's like that's where these guys are. Go back out to rallies after this? I mean, that's the definition of insanity, is it not?
GUPTA: Yes. It absolutely is. And, you know, I always think historically we're going to look back. There's going to be books that are written about what is happening right now. And they're going to say, so, in the middle of a pandemic, where you had millions of people who had been infected, hundreds of thousands who died, you thought it was a good idea to aggregate a lot of people together, unmasked, close contact, long duration.
You know, and you thought that that wasn't going to lead to a problem. I mean, the virus is the virus. I don't know -- we have to keep being reminded that the virus is a contagious virus. Since February, we've had to continuously be reminded. I don't know what it takes. You know, I was thinking earlier --
CUOMO: You know what the virus is?
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: Go ahead, Sanjay. What were you thinking earlier?
(CROSSTALK)
GUPTA: I was thinking, if we could see it. If you could see the virus and it had these little six-foot long strings, right? So it's coming out of your nose and your mouth in six-foot long strings. You've had it, I'd definitely keep my distance from you, right? But we don't see it and, therefore, for a lot of people it doesn't exist.
I mean, you go back and you look at that Rose Garden ceremony. These are smart people, standing right next to each other, without masks on. If you could actually see this virus, I think it'd be a very different scenario. Obviously, that's not the case. But I just don't know what it -- what it's going to take to remind people not to do that. We are still in the middle of a pandemic. This isn't going to be our lives forever.
CUOMO: Pain. Pain is what it's going to take.
GUPTA: Maybe you have to go through it.
CUOMO: You know what the virus is? The virus is the truth. That's what the virus is. The virus is the virus, all day long. The virus is the virus, if you like it or if you don't. The virus is going to make you sick if you say it does, if you say it doesn't. You know, that's what the virus is. It's the truth. If you wear a mask, you socially distance, and you're hygiene happy, then the truth will be that you probably don't get sick.
But the virus is the truth. Masks, socially distancing, it's not a hoax. They're all falling prey to their -- you know, to their own pride on this one.
All right. Got to jump to break but I have you back in the next hour, Sanjay, because you are indefatigable. Thank you very much for being with me as always.
All right. Let's take a breath. We got one of the most remarkable journalists of our time, Carl Bernstein. And he ain't never seen anything like this. His understanding of what's going on here with what we're not being told and why and where this probably started and how it is reaching out now, and where it could go. And what it means for this election.
Carl Bernstein, the one and only, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[00:28:05]
CUOMO: Nearly a month away from election day, and the president of the United States who's been campaigning for a second term has contracted coronavirus. What does this mean for the election? What does this mean for the democracy?
Let's get to CNN political analyst, Carl Bernstein. Good to see you.
CARL BERNSTEIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Good to be with you.
CUOMO: So timeline doesn't make sense. Sequencing doesn't make sense. Hope Hicks is getting this hung around her neck but she's probably the canary in the coal mine. She's just a signal that there was an event that they were all at which is why all these people are now getting sick, Carl. It's not that she got the president sick. I don't think.
BERNSTEIN: It's also the reason why 200,000 people in this country have died because of the homicidal negligence of the president of the United States. The president of the United States has been told by his advisers that masks work. He knows it. When his own valet came down with coronavirus, the president became infuriated at him because he didn't wear his mask around the president.
This is purposeful. The president has opposed wearing of masks because it is a political statement. And it is a political statement it is about his own expedient willingness to do anything for his own ends and to seek re-election in his interest -- in this instance. The hell with the people of this country who might be hurt, die from this. Look at the 200,000 people. Look at what Bob Woodward has on tape.
Let's go back to the real basics here. And what we saw in the -- and we've seen it in his rallies, too, his willingness to make sacrificial lambs out of his own supporters. It's very uncomfortable to say this in a moment when the president of the United States is in the hospital. Again, because of his own recklessness. But that's why we're here.
You know, I had -- I watched that thing in the Rose Garden. And I was agape. And one reason I was agape is that there was a person there who I've known for 48 years and we've had wonderful times together and discussions, philosophical, political. And I said to myself, why? Why is he not wearing a mask?
And this is a man of science incidentally. Someone who has written scientific articles about government policy, who has served in many administrations. And what is the answer to that question? That those people in the Rose Garden have been so willing to go along for political expediency and for the president's -- been bullied by him. That they have gone -- look at Capitol Hill. Look.
Where are the Republican senators and members of the House who, after that debate the other night, heard the most vile, ugly, endorsements of ugly, unthinkable ideology and racism by the president of the United States. And those people on the hill, the Republicans said not a word to say we cannot have this. So I think we -- we can't look at this event in the Rose Garden in isolation from what has happened during the pandemic.
There are two stages to this pandemic. The first, beginning back in January. January 28th, when the president was briefed on what this could mean to the United States. And then knowingly let this thing go without taking the kind of actions that were necessary to save the country from what could happen and has now happened. And then what has happened since.
He has become ill because now we have a real dividing line in which the very stability and national security of this country has been endangered in a way that never has been by what we have now, which is this explosion going through, not just the president of the United States but, through the executive branch. We have a government in quarantine. This is extraordinary.
CUOMO: And it is, you know, for right now because of this one event that we're focusing on, they're almost all Republicans. You know, obviously, Democrats have gotten sick.
BERNSTEIN: Yes, that's my point.
CUOMO: The Democrats have gotten sick as well. But this was a Republican --
(CROSSTALK)
BERNSTEIN: They're all Republican --
CUOMO: Right.
BERNSTEIN: Some of them have met with Democrats. And we can expect some of the Democrats also probably to come down with the virus as a result.
CUOMO: Carl, weren't we under the understanding that the president and his close staff gets tested every day?
BERNSTEIN: Yes, but look, testing hasn't worked in this country for anybody.
CUOMO: But if you tested somebody every day --
BERNSTEIN: We've insufficient --
CUOMO: -- they would have picked up something sooner than now.
BERNSTEIN: It depends on what test they're getting. If they're doing a fast test. Again, this is for the doctors, not for me. I'm a lay person, here. But they have not been giving the kinds of tests, I believe, that are nearly as -- go as deep. I think they're giving, you know, the Abbott test for the most part. Am I right about that, Chris?
CUOMO: Yes, and now --
BERNSTEIN: That that's usually what's given?
CUOMO: Yes. They've been giving him the Abbott test. But now why it's interesting, Carl --
(CROSSTALK)
BERNSTEIN: My sister got coronavirus.
CUOMO: -- is it goes to the practice and the protocol in the White House.
BERNSTEIN: She tested negative.
CUOMO: Right. But you have -- you have all these people now who were at that event. I know because I have been speaking to them tonight. And they're all on their own, Carl. They're not hearing from the White House. They're not part of some big contact tracing investigation. They're all on their own getting tests and figuring out whether or not they have it because they were at the event.
It's very interesting. You know, it's really not about loyalty there. It's about fealty. So let me ask you. This talk that they can't wait for him to get back out on the campaign trail. Do you think that, you know, right now, this is the worst thing that could happen to him politically? Hopefully, God willing, he gets healthy again. But if it heals his body and not his head and he goes back out and does more rallies, what would that mean for him, you think?
BERNSTEIN: Look. I -- I think that logic would tell you that what this part has made clear is that the president of the United States has been negligent, not only about the citizens of the United States but even about the office of the presidency itself. He has endangered the office of the presidency and all that it represents. He has endangered the country.
You know, Mattis, Tillerson, McMaster, Kelly, Coats. All of the national security area advisers -- not all but most of the national security principal advisers to the president of the United States, to Trump, concluded that this president is a danger to the national security.
[00:35:12]
We never had a president of the United States who has been a danger to the national security. And here we have the most grievous example of it you can imagine. So it's hard to imagine that he would not be adversely affected.
CUOMO: But we'll see. I'm sure people will be --
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: Polling is going to be sympathy for him. We'll see what it means.
BERNSTEIN: At the same time, at the same time --
CUOMO: We'll see what it means soon enough. We'll see what it means soon enough. Carl, I got to jump. Thank you very much especially at the late hour.
Appreciate the perspective as always.
BERNSTEIN: Good to be with you.
CUOMO: We'll be right back.
BERNSTEIN: Good to be with you.
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[00:40:13]
CUOMO: Could pay a big price for pride. We now have a second Republican senator present at the Rose Garden event last Saturday, a week ago now, as we're in the early morning hours on the East Coast of Saturday. Celebrating the nomination of Judge Amy Coney Barrett to the Supreme Court. Nice gathering. Nice and tight. Most of the people had no masks on.
Now we've had two senators who sit on the Senate Judiciary Committee, Republicans, test positive. What does this mean?
Phil Mattingly is on the Hill this early Saturday morning.
Now, if you do the simple math, God willing, they get through this in about the same amount of time as the quarantine, they're there pretty much for when Graham wants to start. Senator Mike Lee from Utah and Thom Tillis from North Carolina. Tillis also has an election. So what are you hearing?
PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Look, I think you've got the intent and you've got the reality, right? The intent is Republicans from Senator Lindsey Graham and Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell are making clear it's full steam ahead. The hearings will start on time, starting on October 12th. As you note, 10 days from the quarantine for those two senators right now. So they should be back if everything goes well.
About a week later, you start to have the committee vote. Then you have the Senate floor process and everything is done and wrapped up and a new Supreme Court justice before the election day. And then you have the reality. And I think you're alluding to this a little bit, Chris, in the sense that you just don't know what's going to happen over the course of the next couple of day on two fronts.
One, the health of the actual senators. Senator Tillis says he has no symptoms. Senator Lee has minor symptoms. But you know that sometimes it takes time for the virus to really kick into gear. So I think there's some concern there obviously on the health front. But also what's going to happen going forward with their participation. But the other is there were more senators in the Senate Judiciary Committee that were at that Saturday ceremony.
Now a number of them have gotten tested over the course of this day. Most of them have come back negative at least that we've been told about right now. But I think the wildcard is the health of the senators that have already tested positive, and also are there any other senators?
And Chris, somebody -- a GOP official told me earlier tonight, we're still trying to get our heads around the blast radius of what's going on right now. There's just a lot of uncertainty here and until that is resolved, you can't say, for certain, how quickly this is going to go.
CUOMO: I mean, we show the video of what they were doing there. I mean, what did they think was going to happen? You know, and we live under this illusion of, you know, ignorance where they say, well, we've had no problems at the other rallies. We don't know. You can't track those people down. They all go home. Who knows who's gotten sick and who hasn't? This could be, what we're looking at here from last Saturday, this is shaping up to have been a super-spreader event.
It is more likely now, given all the people who've gotten sick, that unless Hope Hicks was the super-spreader, that she didn't get the president sick. She just got sick at the same place that he did. And now the question becomes, you know, like you were just saying, Phil, how broad it goes.
What is the buzz you're hearing about what all of this contagion means, politically, to the president?
MATTINGLY: I think right now there's a lot of frustration. And I think there is also a recognition of a couple of things. One, if you go back, flash back to that Saturday ceremony, that was the moment. You know, Republicans were ecstatic. They knew that the president's poll numbers weren't great right now. They knew they had dogfights in a number of frontline Senate races and a couple of Senate races they didn't expect to be frontline Senate races but for once, they could talk about something other than the coronavirus.
They could talk about the Supreme Court nomination. They didn't know if that was going to be a big winner for them but they knew it had to be better than talking about the coronavirus. And guess where we are one week later? And I think that's the frustration you hear from Republicans. That's the concern you hear from Republicans. And then I think the broader issue, and you kind of get at this, too, Chris. I think this is a really good point.
There is a level of complacency right now that has kind of come from where the White House is on this. You know, you've got members that are flying on Air Force One. You've got members that are at the White House pretty regularly. You have White House staff that's up here pretty regularly as well.
In the United States Senate, the vast majority if not at least 99 of 100 senators are wearing masks almost all the time. They're socially distant. They do virtual hearings. And they will get invited to the White House and everybody goes over and nobody's wearing masks. And a lot of times, they end up mimicking that or replicating that. Not unlike the White House staff.
And I think one of the most jarring elements of this entire kind of last 24-hour period is folks here, where the Senate has been operating pretty close to normal over the course of the last four or five months, with the precautions that have taken place are recognizing, you know, holy hell, this isn't over. You know, it's not -- it's right on our doorstep. It's back. And right now we might have a bigger problem than we've ever had. Not just on the political front but also on the public health front.
CUOMO: Just such a shame. You know, the president went from a private citizen who used to not want to touch anybody. To now, as president, telling people to ignore a pandemic and look where we are. National security concerns with our commander-in-chief in the hospital.
Phil Mattingly, thank you very much especially at this hour. Appreciate it. Best to you and the family.
[00:45:03]
Let's take a break. We'll be right back.
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CUOMO: So the more the facts start to come in, the more questions start to get answers, which is never easy with this White House, the more this is not about Hope Hicks and the last couple of days. It looks a lot more likely like it's about something that happened a week ago, almost to the day, Saturday.
This picture of the Rose Garden. See it? The attendees that are named have already tested positive after attending this White House event for Supreme Court nominee Judge Amy Coney Barrett, including Kellyanne Conway, and I don't think he's on there, Bill Stepien, the campaign manager. He was there. We're waiting to hear about governor -- former governor of New Jersey, Chris Christie.
And there are a lot of other people that were there. We don't know what their situation is. We've heard some people have tested and tested negative. Does that mean that they really don't have it? Maybe.
[00:50:04]
Why? Oh, it never ends. You always keep the speculation going. No, it is science. Testing is not always exact. OK? It takes time to manifest. It's one of the reasons we started looking back at the Rose party, the Rose Garden event. Why? Because the idea that Hope Hicks gets sick Wednesday, and then the president gets it from her and tests positive the next day?
There are two problems with that. One, it doesn't usually happen that way. It takes time for the virus to build up in your system so it's more likely that it had been building up in her system and in his. And she was really a canary on the coal mine, just prove that you needed to get him tested. And by the way, I thought they tested him every day?
Secondly, did they really not test the president for 24 hours after finding out about someone who was that close to him being sick? I mean, are we supposed to protect the commander-in-chief?
Let's get some insights from someone who knows many in Trump world well, former White House communications director Anthony Scaramucci.
It's good to see you especially at this hour. Thank you for doing it, Anthony. You know, the more I talk to people in and around the president, and people who were getting tested and getting sick, it seems like they have no control of this situation. Everybody seems like they're going it on their own. You know, they're looking for doctors, they're looking to get tested, they're waiting to find out. They're not hearing from the White House. What do you make of it?
ANTHONY SCARAMUCCI, FORMER WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: WELL, it's the president. So he's a combination, Chris, of everybody. You know, he's the chief of staff, the comms director, he's the press secretary, he does Hope's job, and so he literally immobilizes everybody around him and then they sit there and they wait for him before they make a decision on what to do. And so he may have had it first and Hope was put out there to make that announcement so there would be a distraction during primetime, you know, sort of 8:00 to 12:00 and then they drop the news drop about the president's own around 1:00 to try to deflect from it.
So that's what goes on in that White House. It's a very dangerous and very scary thing. But, Chris, you just have to think about the culture. Right? Anything in life, you know, we all have, when I worked at a very large firm, they said to me we have the same computers, we have the same telephones, you have the same pieces of paper, so what is making us different? What's going to make us better than our competitors?
It's our culture. Can we get together? Can we build a consensus? Can we take information from each other? And ultimately if you're writing a Harvard business or case study about mismanagement, you would write about this White House because the president himself has never demonstrated managerial operational skills. And it's in wide open display right now with this crisis.
CUOMO: You have Mark Meadows, he addressed the press today about the president. He was at the event. He came out with no masks today. So hopefully he doesn't have it, assuming he's been tested. Do you think that this will change the president's messaging on the pandemic and change his desire to do crammed rallies with no masks?
SCARAMUCCI: I do think that. I think that -- let me put it this way. I'm hoping that. I mean, we obviously don't know -- a lot of people say well, he's unchangeable. He'll never admit that he's wrong. But I'm hoping this is sort of that apparitional moment where he says to himself, OK, I've got this.
Chris, you may not remember Stanley Chera, that was one of the president's close friends. In fact back in 2016 I did a fundraiser where I co-did it, co-run it together. He passed away after four days. You know, he had the virus, he walked into the hospital, 78 years old, four days later he passed away. You thought that would move the president, it didn't move the president. But the fact that he has it himself, and I do pray for his recovery.
I want him to be back to where he was two or three weeks ago in terms of his vigor and his health. I think that could be the apparitional moment. And you certainly saw after he left the White House, as they pan back to his staff, they were wearing masks more or less. Mark meadows may not have been wearing one. But it seemed like, you know --
CUOMO: Right. No, I saw the pictures.
SCARAMUCCI: -- nine out of 10 or 99 out of a hundred.
CUOMO: Yes. A guy who hates the hospital goes to the hospital this quick, and he's not known for doing anything he doesn't want to do. He's got to be worried about this. I even pick it up in his speech and his tweets, and him saying I'm doing really well, I think. He never says he thinks. You know? He just knows things. This has got to be tough for him. This has got to be scary.
SCARAMUCCI: Listen, I mean, I don't care who you are, and he's acted like a bully for a very long period of time. When you're seeing this and you're an American and you're looking at him, we have one president, there is sympathy.
CUOMO: Sure.
SCARAMUCCI: And so some of us could be upset with the way he's treated us but you are looking at it and saying, OK, I really do hope he's OK.
[00:55:03]
And maybe that uncertainty is a good thing, Chris. Maybe that vulnerability will make him realize he's human like the rest of us. So we'll have to see. But I think he's -- I think he's also got to be -- this has to be litigated. The last three and a half, four years of his life as the American president over the next 30 or so days has to be litigated. And you know how I feel about it.
CUOMO: We will.
SCARAMUCCI: He does not deserve to be president and hopefully he gets voted out.
CUOMO: Well, time is growing short if nothing else. The irony of ironies, Anthony Scaramucci, is that the president has become the strongest counter argument to his own message to his followers, not to worry about the pandemic. So we'll see how that plays with them and the rest of the country.
SCARAMUCCI: Amen.
CUOMO: I'm sure quickly. Best to you and the family. Stay healthy.
SCARAMUCCI: Thank you.
CUOMO: All right, the president is spending the first of several nights at Walter Reed. He was tweeting not too long ago. Mr. President, I have been where you are, you got to rest. You're
going to need your rest against this. It's a time to sleep more than you have recently. Everybody knows you're fine for now. Sleeping will do more for this country than tweeting.
We're going to stay live with this emergency for the White House and the nation. We have another special late-night hour of PRIMETIME coming up next.
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