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White House Sows Confusion About Trump's Condition; Patriots Quarterback, Cam Newton Tests Positive For COVID-19; Trump Hospitalized One Month Out From Election. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired October 03, 2020 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: Welcome back to a special, Saturday night, Special Coverage. I'm Chris Cuomo, you know me from CUOMO PRIME TIME. And I'm with you this Saturday night because we got big situations going on that demand our attention.

We have more information on the President's health. It's trickling out, but there's a lot of inconsistent information. And it is hard to know what to believe. As a result, I cannot with confidence tell you that we know for sure how President Trump is doing against coronavirus. Let's listen to what a hospitalized President Trump told us himself. They tell us, tonight, this video was made. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF UNITED STATES: They just didn't want to stay in the White House, I was given that alternative. Stay in the White House, lock yourself in. Don't ever leave. Don't even go to the Oval Office. Just stay upstairs and enjoy it. Don't see people. Don't talk to people and just be done with it. And I can't do that I had to be out front.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: Now, that's a little confusing how we put it together for you. This is him explaining later in the video why he's been out on the Hastings campaigning, when he was told, you know, you should just stay in the Oval Office, stay in the White House. He's making the case that, no, I'm a leader. I have to confront the situation.

Now earlier in the tape, he said he's doing better. He thinks the next few days will tell the story. But he's feeling good and he thanks everybody. Good indications.

But this part of the video arguably matters more, because at some point, it can't just be about him. It's got to be about what his situation means to the rest of this country. And here's what's really clear in a very confusing situation. He should have stayed in the Oval Office. He should have stayed in the White House. That is what we were asking the rest of the country to do.

Sure he's an essential worker, but how you do the job matters also. Instead, he went out and did exactly what we were asking everybody else not to do. And he did that because he said that the information was bogus, that the pandemic was a hoax. That masks were weakness, and everything was going to be fine. He said nothing ever comes from our events. Nobody gets sick. We don't know that that's true. And in fact, we now know it's not true based with what we're dealing with right now.

In all likelihood, this President's flouting of the advice that he just admitted he was given. That made sense from every clinician and every expert under his control, now has him in the hospital. Please take that message to heart. He's the best evidence that what he was telling you about the pandemic was wrong.

Now, we got to figure out what is right when it comes to what to understand about his own situation. Let's begin with White House Correspondent John Harwood, outside Walter Reed Medical Center.

John, good to have you on with me, thank you for taking the opportunity to do so. Is it true for you as well, that this has been an unusual circumstance of conflicting information coming out from people who should be on the same page?

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely. We're more than two days, Chris, from when we learned that the President had coronavirus. We still do not have a clear timeline of when he acquired it, when his diagnosis was confirmed. We don't have a clear explanation of his condition or his prognosis.

We had this very confusing and comically evasive press conference by his doctor at Walter Reed today, where he attempted to paint a rosy view of the situation but wouldn't provide any details, wouldn't say how high his fever has been, wouldn't say whether he'd taken supplemental oxygen or though we subsequently confirmed that he did, didn't say whether he'd sustained any lung damage.

After that, you had a White House official come out on background later identified by the AP and the New York Times as Mark Meadows, the Chief of Staff say, well, his vitals were of significant concern yesterday, and the course of his disease is going to be determined in the next 48 hours, not out of the woods, that sort of thing.

Then finally, we got the videotape from the President himself tonight, four minutes long. And I thought that, and I'm interested in what you think, Chris, because you've known Donald Trump longer than I have, but I thought we could see a real note of vulnerability in that tape where he said, I'm starting to feel good, but you don't know, watch the next couple of days. I thought that was more revealing that moment than anything the doctor told us at the press conference today.

CUOMO: Well, usually, he understands something very well about messaging which is show no uncertainty. Say that things are true, whether they are or not, if you repeat it enough people will believe you. And certainly, his success to this point is testament to that.

[23:05:00]

He has been qualifying things since he got sick. I think I'm going to be good. They, you know, they tell me this. I will see. That is an unusual level of qualifying for him.

But I'll tell you what. He is not denying that he's sick. And as somebody who had it, everybody is different. And what I'm hearing about him does not match up with mine. When you're sick, you're going to know what, John, and this is a scary thing because nobody can give you great answers, even as president of the United States. I know who he's talking to.

And they don't know things about this. So you get spooked fast, and that's going to show and anybody, I mean, he's a human being like everybody else. My bigger concern is what he's still insisting on saying, telling people, John, they told me, I should stay in the White House. They told me I should stay in the Oval Office. But no, a leader confronts the situation. That's why I went out and held rallies. It was probably the worst thing to do as a leader.

HARWOOD: Right. And there was a ton of baloney in that videotape as well. The whole idea about him being advised to stay in the White House, but he chose to go to the hospital. We know he doesn't like hospitals. He was reluctant to go. His aides wanted him to go, and that was the right decision. Because given the unpredictability of this illness, as you know better than almost anyone, you can take a turn very rapidly. And if you're a 74-year-old man who's overweight, it's a dangerous situation.

And the right call was made. He was convinced to go. He was able to walk out under his own steam to Marine One, and head up here to Bethesda. So the right thing happened in the end, his description of how it happened was not quite right.

[23:00:00]

CUOMO: John Harwood, thank you so much. Good to be with you on the Saturday night. Appreciate it.

All right. Let's bring in Dr. William Schaffner to understand this. Doc, as always, thank you for being ever present when I need you.

First thing that is interesting, if anything about him being in tough shape is true, how about him walking out to Marine One? You know, I mean, you know, if he had problems with his blood oxygen and all these other things, he walked out there, you know, under his own power, gone on Marine One. That's got to mean something, right?

DR. WILLIAM SCHAFFNER, PROFESSOR, VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY MEDICAL CENTER: It does mean something. But remember, Chris, this is a very sneaky infection. And one of the clinical characteristics that we've learned about it is, the patient can look much better than their blood oxygen concentration, and their X-ray. So he was looking pretty good at the time, but we really don't know what his blood oxygen concentration was at that time.

The patient, in effect, can think you out, so you have to be very alert to follow blood oxygen concentrations, and the chest X-ray, and other aspects of just his well being an organ function. So just looking at the patient is not enough. CUOMO: Good point, good point. I mean, anecdotally, you know, I was doing my show every night. I would be a sweaty mess afterwards. You know, sitting in the shower, trying to kind of get my composure back. So people can fake you out especially when they want to seem strong in the moment. And the President certainly wants to do that.

Now, here's something I didn't deal with that certainly would have made me want to go to the hospital. If my blood ox, my blood oxygen level, had gone down to a point where someone like you was telling me I needed supplemental oxygen. That was the line for me. That's why I was doing those breathing exercises like crazy and trying everything I could to keep my lungs OK, because I know that's the tipping point with this. So the idea that we believe he needed supplemental oxygen, what does that tell you at a minimum?

SCHAFFNER: Well, if that is indeed true and it sounds as though it was, then he was in a somewhat precarious position, because that can be an early sign of going sideways, going downhill. And you will want the patient in the very best possible place. So everybody can respond to that appropriately.

Going to the hospital was an absolutely appropriate decision. He went during the day. It was not an emergent circumstance. He got settled in, got hooked up to all the monitors, all the blood tests were being done. All the aides, the nurses, the doctors got to know them, examine him establish a good baseline, and they're ready then to deal if something happens to him.

CUOMO: Everybody says the exact same thing you're saying now. Every clinician I've spoken to says I absolutely would have done this. We would do it with everybody if we had the opportunity. If there's somebody who we're worried about, you know, if we, you know, obviously, when they have one president, you're going to treat him special. But it would be great if I could get everybody in there in a clinical setting, so I can do what I need to do in a moment's notice.

[23:10:01]

So the White House just put out pictures of the President. Let's take a look.

All right, here it is. Now, the timing on these, Lyla, can you tell me in the control room? When were these earlier today, I guess.

So he's there working. Interestingly, doctor, they don't have him or, you know, he seems to be in the same clothes that he arrived in. I don't mean that in any kind of sarcastic way. I'm saying to be in the hospital, but be in a suit and jacket? Is that just because this is the President or do you think that, , you know, is that unusual?

SCHAFFNER: Oh sure, that's completely unusual. So you don't want to have to deal with the tie and buttons on your shirt if suddenly something happens. So, you know, you put on those horrible hospital gowns, because it's easy for people to get at you if they need to get at you very, very quickly. So this is the President being the president. I hope he's not in those all the time, frankly. CUOMO: Right. And this is from today, the White House says, so what is the contrasting point to this? Well, it's a picture that we can draw with facts. The idea of where do you come down on this question, doctor, I want to word it the right way, of throwing everything you can at a case versus do no harm/let's know this isn't necessary.

Regeneron's treatment, Remdesivir, which you're going to be in the hospital for. Doing that with the President, where are you in terms of that would only be something I would do if I had to versus sure I got access to it, why not? Can't hurt him?

SCHAFFNER: Chris, I think I can parse the two apart. The monoclonal antibodies, the Regeneron, that's a drug that's in trial for the present, at the present. Nothing has been proven. The early data look promising, used exactly at this time to try to prevent progression into that nasty second phase of this infection. That was something that occurred to many people, myself, also. I think that was a reasonable thing to do.

Now, the Remdesivir, that came, I suspect, I don't know, because of a specific indication. If that blood oxygen did indeed go down, or if there were abnormalities on chest X-ray, those would have been specific indications for the use of that drug. That wouldn't have been speculative, that would have been indicated at that time.

CUOMO: Dr. William Schaffner, thank you very much. And I'm really trying to balance it. I really believe there's absolutely no percentage of being alarmist about this. And just, again, for context, my own case, everybody's case is different. I'm a different patient than President Trump.

I had infiltrate, which is like shadow some kind of fluid in my lung when they took the X-ray. And those scary to hear, part of the virus, so even if that was there, and it became as the doctor is saying, indicative -- have a need to deal with the lungs and they had the access to Remdesivir, doesn't mean that he's in horrible shape, OK? So just take context within the information of content.

Now, not out of the woods, it's the headline from the President's doctor tonight on his condition, spooked people. Listen, of course, he's not out of the woods yet. This is the real deal, this virus. This is why we don't want anybody to get it, because you don't know how it's going to progress.

But we do know, the White House hasn't been being straight with us and it matters so much in times like now. The timeline doesn't make sense, and it has to for us. We have one president. We're going to lay out the facts as we know them, so we can start to put the information in your head, piece it together, and you'll see what we still need to know. Next.

[23:14:09]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CUOMO: One president, in the hospital, we have to know how he's doing. Period, it's the end of the analysis. Instead, of obvious and transparent, we got this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. SEAN CONLEY, PRESIDENT TRUMP'S DOCTOR: Well, I don't want to put a hard date on that. I don't want to put a percentage on that. I'd rather not give any specific numbers. I'm not going to get into all the testing. I'm not going to go into specifics, not going to go into that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: And, look, there are privacy rights for a patient even if they are the president. This is a balancing test, OK? But there are certain things, therefore, that we need to have because he is not a normal private citizen. He is one of one.

So you've got a White House source reportedly, the chief of staff, saying the President's vitals over the last 24 hours were very concerning, and the next 48 hours will be critical in terms of his care, was still not on a clear path to a full recovery. It was right after the President's doctor was saying this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CONLEY: The President is doing very well. But we remain cautiously optimistic, but he's doing great.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: Now, what should we know? If he has fever, they should be given us some ballpark on it so that we can kind of understand the level of battle here. Because when you hear the President's kind of, you know, reckoning, I've been fever free for 24 hours. Keep in mind, he's been in the hospital where medication would have been used to reduce that fever, right? Even the CDC guideline for returning to work says it's having a fever "without the use of fever-reducing medications."

Now, I live that. I had myself at normal but I wasn't off the Tylenol. Then you get off the Tylenol, whatever you're using, then you have to try to get under it that's a very different game. They also say symptoms need to have improved, be gone. That's totally subjective. And if you get long haul then a lot of the stuff never goes away, which is part of the confusion here, which is why you need as much information as you can get.

His doctor told you, his symptoms are resolving and improving. But why was he on oxygen? Why did you get the Remdesivir? You know what I'm saying? This is in conflict. Why is he in the hospital?

[23:20:03]

Well, just out of an abundance of caution, OK, but the Remdesivir, the Regeneron, oxygen, I mean that's not abundance of caution. That's a treatment protocol that has to have indications feedback. You don't give somebody oxygen for no reason. The doctor had to clean up the situation of when the President was diagnosed, and the stuff about the oxygen. So, what are we to make of this? Let's bring in Philip Bump from the Washington Post. Phil, always a pleasure. I hope you and the family well.

PHILIP BUMP, WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT, WASHINGTON POST: We are, thank you.

CUOMO: You know, the straight-line argument is this. Oh, you in the media, Bump and Cuomo, just what I need. You guys, it's never enough for you. Meadow says he's OK. The doctor says he's OK. Everything else is just unnecessary parson. What's the response to that?

BUMP: Yes. No, I mean, I think you're right. The response to that is, that would be a much easier approach to take or not to the fact that we have Meadows contradicting himself over the course of 24 hours.

Yesterday, he says the President has minor symptoms. Today, in an interview on Fox News, he says that there was a scary situation that the President's blood oxygen level dropped precipitously, and that's not the word to use. But that was the way he described it.

And so, because we're not getting, we got fairly consistent messaging from the White House yesterday, which was that it was not that big a deal. But now we're learning as they're trying to say, OK, everything looks like it's heading in the right direction. We're learning that things were more significant than actually were. And that discrepancy alone means, OK, we need a lot of detail here or else, we're absolutely certain that we can't be confident in the picture we're being given.

CUOMO: Right. And to be fair, the skepticism is a function of the past. They don't tell the truth. So you get pictures today of the president in a shirt and jacket, working at Walter Reed, in the Presidential Suite, that looks pretty good.

To me, it's like it's somebody who had the virus, he can't be doing that badly if he's doing that, but we have to be suspicious of whether or not he was put into that situation to project an image that doesn't accurately reflect his condition. I don't want to speculate that way. I wish I could take this at face value. But is that a prudent thing to do given what we know?

BUMP: Yes. I mean, you know, you go back to you never see pictures of FDR in a wheelchair. You never saw pictures of John F. Kennedy backwards. There's a long history of presidents hiding their physical ailments or fight, hiding moments in which they were physically weak.

And on top of that, a White House, which has been consistently deceptive about President Trump's personal health, that weird trip to Walter Reed last November, for example, is weird physician's updates that he's had over the course of his both campaign and presidency. And then just generally a White House, which is more than willing to offer misinformation about what's going on.

All of those things combined mean that for this president, in this moment, there is a much, much, much higher bar than it would have been for a say John F. Kennedy, simply by virtue of who they are coming into this scenario.

CUOMO: Right. And, look, I'm not going to report it because I don't have it confirmed. And I haven't gone through the CNN vetting. But I'm telling you, I've never had anything like this happen before, Philip.

During the course of the special coverage tonight, I've gotten at least five versions from people who know the President well, or know people who were around him well, who have been good conduits of information for me. The stories are all over the place. So for you, what are the most important unanswered questions right now?

BUMP: Well, I think the fundamental unanswered question is what has been the progression for President Trump, right? What was the moment when we actually the White House first said, OK, he may be positive here, what were his symptoms from that point forward, how bad was his blood oxygen yesterday that necessitated this apparent supplemental use of oxygen.

But, you know, you, more than anyone can attest. The fact that he is doing better in this moment doesn't mean anything for tomorrow or the day after. I do appreciate that both the doctor and Meadows have said, we need to be very careful over the next 48 hours. That's a bit of honesty that I think should be appreciated. Because we, it's necessary for us to know what has already happened, that still doesn't necessarily tell us anything about what's going to.

But because we have not gotten consistently good information about what has already happened, it means that whatever we hear over the next 48 hours should be taken with more grains of salt than there are in, you know, the Tri-State Area.

CUOMO: Thank you very much, Philip Bump. And I know many of you at home watching. Look, I want to believe the pictures, personally. I want to believe that, you know, he's basically wearing whatever he wants, and he's up and he's working, and they're just monitoring him. And he's going to make it through with some bumps.

That would be great in terms of him getting out, then let's all get after the things that matter to all of us in this country. Positive tests and other, you know, aspect of this.

Positive tests are leading to postpone games, postpone life. And the NFL star quarterback, Cam Newton, now reportedly has COVID.

[23:25:06]

First of all, what does this mean about testing? Does it matter what kind of testing that they're giving him? What are the outbreaks mean for the season? We've got to Star Sports Analysts next. COVID and everything, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CUOMO: Was it too good to be true having the NFL back? That's the question. Now, the Patriots quarterback Cam Newton has tested positive supposedly for coronavirus.

The aftermath has resulted in the NFL postponing the Patriots game against the Chiefs, huge game, and led to bigger questions about a full season. Let's get the latest from CNN Sports Analyst Christine Brennan.

It's been a minute. I hope you're doing well. Hope your head and heart are in a good place.

CHRISTINE BRENNAN, CNN SPORTS ANALYST: Oh, great to see you, Chris. It has been a while. Yes, everything is great here and hope with you as well.

CUOMO: So what's the scoop?

BRENNAN: Well, the NFL had a nice little run and this is by far the worst week that they're having now in the midst of COVID. And I don't think it's a surprise, frankly, Chris, that this is happening.

It is week four. And it's no less than Dr. Anthony Fauci said on June 18th. He said, I think the NFL might need to play in a bubble.

[23:30:02]

Or football in general might need to plan a bubble to be able to have it happen. Obviously, there's no bubble. There's no bubble in the NFL. There's no bubble in college football. And now we're seeing the results. Two games now have been postponed, the first of the NFL games to be postponed.

There been 22 College games, Chris, that have been postponed this season so far. And when you're trying to play football, a sport that is the antithesis of social distancing in the middle of a global pandemic, you're going to have cancellations and postponements and I think the NFL is going to -- it's going to have more of these.

But this is a big one, especially with Cam Newton, 31 years old, former MVP on a comeback with the star-studded New England Patriots. It's a big disappointment for the NFL. But I also think it's a big reality check for the National Football League.

CUOMO: Let's talk about the reality, because so much of this is perception of how people view the positive test. Cam Newton was a beast last week and they lost but wasn't because of him. He was extraordinary. And now they hear he tested positive for COVID people are going to say but the guy was like on top of his game, how sick could he be? Is this test bogus? What are we hearing about how he is?

BRENNAN: Right now, we're not hearing much of anything. I've talked to a few sources. The presumption is right now, Chris, that he's OK. And that he'll be back bounce back, like so many athletes, and so many young people do.

But you know well that there are other sides to the story. And Eduardo Rodriguez is a pitcher for the Boston Red Sox. He's 27 years old. So he's four years younger than Cam Newton. And he was going to be, you know, with the Red Sox this year, and he tested positive for COVID-19. And they also were able to diagnose him with Myocarditis. Or they did diagnose him with that, the heart inflammation that can occur, in some cases, and he has been out all the way since July. August hadn't heard a word.

Last week word came, Chris, that the 27-year-old star pitcher for the Boston Red Sox was finally able to start walking. Yes, start walking. And I think that's the reality check. And the concern, but as far as Cam Newton, we're hoping he's going to be fine. He'll be back in a couple of weeks. The game will be rescheduled.

But the question long term is, what is -- what could be the damage. And that's the roll of the dice for colleges, for pro and all these sports. We just don't know what it's going to look like five to 10 years down the road. But obviously, we are willing as a society to go ahead and roll that dice.

CUOMO: Increasingly so. And the learning curve for us has to be rationalizing the percentages, you know, for the percentages are so small with the randomness of you don't know who gets hit. We can kind of be predictive but there are a lot of anomalies. Christine Brennan, you are the right bet every time. Thank you very much for the information and insight as always.

BRENNAN: Thank you, Chris. Take care.

CUOMO: All right. So we're a month out from the election. October surprise, what else can we take? Right? Like what else do you need? And what we're dealing with right now? The President is in the hospital, we're in the middle of a global pandemic, cases is still popping in places because not enough of us are doing the right thing. Will this change that perspective? When people start to get on the same page and not be left right about the pandemic just reasonable. Let's bring in two great political minds, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:37:16]

CUOMO: Well, here's some new reporting for you on a Saturday night President Trump is reportedly furious with his chief of staff Mark Meadows for countering the messaging that he wanted out there, that everything is fine. That's according to new reporting from the New York Times.

Meadows told reporters that the President's vitals were quote, very concerning. And within hours, the president intervened. A cheery tweet about feeling well, a four-minute video meant to reassure us. Let's bring in Jennifer Granholm and Scott Jennings, good to have you both, especially on a Saturday night. I hope your families are well.

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Good evening.

JENNIFER GRANHOLM, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Doing great. Thanks, Chris. CUOMO: All right. So let's start inside and go outside. Scott, what are you hearing about how people feel about the President's situation in and around the White House?

JENNINGS: Well, I mean, I along with many other people were stunned today at the contradictory statements, frankly, that came out. I couldn't believe it honestly, having the President's physicians go out and make a statement. Good idea. They were dodgy, which was not a good idea. But at least they were out there talking about the President's physical condition from a medical perspective.

And then to have an anonymous soon to be outed senior White House official, deliver a contradictory statement. I mean, look, all politics and campaign stuff aside, this is the leader of the free world, the world needs to know how he is. Americans need to know how their president is. And this is no time for equivocation about the President's health. I mean, our enemies are watching. The world is watching here.

And so I was stunned. I was stunned. And I see that Chief of Staff Meadows has now made like three statements today. It's not a good look.

CUOMO: And look, you know, as we all know, very often a message put out by an official does not line up with what you later learn are at least not precisely. But Jennifer, you know, this doesn't make sense. Why would you have Meadows put out bad information if it weren't true? You know what I mean? Like what is the upside to Meadows coming out and saying things that are contrary to the perceived reality that things are good.

GRANHOLM: I mean, perhaps to Meadows credit, he was trying to clean up a bit what he perceived as happy talk on the part of the doctors, who obviously had been given some instructions by Donald Trump, not to indicate that he had been on oxygen, not to talk about his temperature, et cetera.

So I think I mean, what if you can read between the lines it looks humanly like Meadows was a little worried about what that looked like especially if the president deteriorated. Now the president comes out with a statement. He looks OK.

[23:40:07]

And so perhaps he is getting better, and perhaps it's going to be all right. But I think Meadows was just trying to tell the truth to his credit.

CUOMO: Right. Let's hope that that's (INAUDIBLE) straight and the president is going to come out --

JENNINGS: If I may comment. Let's just pretend that was --

CUOMO: Go ahead.

JENNINGS: Yes, let's just pretend that what the governor said is true. And that's what was happening. How are you going to do that via anonymous statement? The health of the President, the continuity of government, the leader of the free world, you cannot make anonymous statements about this person's health. And that's why I thought it was a good idea to have the doctors on the record. So I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on the motives here. You can't do that off the record. You can't go put your name on that. Don't you?

GRANHOLM: Totally agree. Totally agree with you that he should have --

CUOMO: This White House does it all the time, Scott. Guys aren't reporters.

GRANHOLM: He should see the doctor.

CUOMO: Right. But I'm saying you're not going to see the documents. But the -- that's the medically (ph) obvious here in this White House. But I'm telling you as a journalist that works this White House on a regular basis. They put out stuff anonymously all the time, that I've never seen anybody handle that way before. So this is a one of one this administration.

Scott, here's the part I don't like, let's assume they're just getting the cans shoot straight. And the President's riding the course the way most do. And he may even get better faster than a lot of others do because of the treatment and the care. Good. We only have one president.

He said in the video today, you know, they told me stay in the White House, stay in the Oval Office, no. The leaders got to confront a problem. That's why I went out and got on the hustings. I believe that that is complete anathema to the right message for this country.

The experts were saying stay in the White House, stay in the Oval Office, because that's the echo of what they were telling the rest of the country. And the President's going out and holding these rallies and the vice president thinking about continuing that right now seems to be taking an opportunity to get everybody on the right page and blowing it up.

And I don't know some misguided sense of vanity. I mean, why would you tell people right now as you sit in the hospital, it was the right thing to go out and be in crowded spaces.

JENNINGS: Yes, I saw that video. And I was a little unclear what he was talking about, because it was a little confusing. But ultimately, this diagnosis of the president gives him an amazing chance to reset himself on coronavirus. He now can cast himself with his people. He's now got a shared experience, he now fully understands. And while, you know, there'll be a segment of the population --

CUOMO: So you send tens out to do rallies?

JENNINGS: No, no, no, of course not. I mean, right. By the way, right now, Mike Pence needs to be somewhere where he cannot catch coronavirus or any other thing that would be bad to happen.

CUOMO: Exactly.

JENNINGS: I mean, we have to have the vice president healthy. And so, my view is reset on this. Do the right thing. Protect the vice president. That's really all that matters. And then -- and if you get that part, right, the messaging will take care of itself. The president can now he has kinship with the American people now. He has a shared experience. And so this is an amazing reset moment if they want to take it I think.

CUOMO: Jennifer, what's your take here?

GRANHOLM: Here you've got -- I've just, I mean, really, Chris, this is your point about the president in this video, justifying why he was out there that a leader has to get out there. No, a leader has to make sure people are safe. It shows that he is incapable of resetting. Scott, you'd be right if he were capable of being humble and honest. But how many times have we seen this. People begging him not to tweet, people begging him not to be so divisive. He's incapable of learning and therefore of benefiting politically from this, if that's what you're getting at. He is not -- it's not possible.

And this is going to hurt him in the election even further. I'm the first person to say, I want him to get well because I'd like to see Joe Biden beat him like a drum, but on his feet and not sick. But this is not going to help him.

CUOMO: All right, so let's make the reciprocal point. What is the right play of for the Democratic nominee right now? For you, Jennifer, how do you balance playing this I told you so versus people believing that you're being petty and spiteful and God forbid, the president doesn't blow through this, like, you know, just a case of the flu, that you look insensitive?

GRANHOLM: Right. I mean, this is why I mean, Joe Biden is so much more magnanimous than so many of the rest of us. He has, you know, he goes to Grand Rapids. He wishes him well. He is pulled down his negative ads. He is really a steady, compassionate leader.

At some point, I hope that he goes back up with his ads and goes on the attack. It's not right, right now while the president is sick.

[23:45:00]

But once he gets better in a couple of days if it looks like he's continuing to progress, I hope he continues to fight. But the bottom line is, Joe Biden has been showing us how to lead with compassion, even though he's been taking a huge amount of incoming from Donald Trump's team for exactly that.

CUOMO: You know, I'm a huge fan of the reset. And on a lot of different levels, I hope the President takes the opportunity didn't sound like in that message certainly would not be true of Pence goes out and does the same mistakes.

But it's a good reset time for all of us. I love having you too on. I love the level of the debate that's going on here. It's the right way to talk about these things. You can disagree about anything with decency, Jennifer Granholm, thank you, Scott Jennings, as always appreciate you being on the show.

Silence says acceptance. All right, more to come on the mixed messaging from the Trump White House. Why matters? This is not business as usual. OK. This is a key time in the middle of a pandemic. What is the right thing for this president to be doing to calm fears that he's OK? But also to tell us what we need to know about this pandemic? We'll be right back.

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[23:50:12]

CUOMO: Not getting straight answers, nothing new with this White House. But in the midst of a pandemic, when the President is now struck with it, remember, the whole level of dialogue has been, why won't the president own what we all know to be obvious and real here? And the suspicion was he was just playing to personal advantage. But why can't we get the straight deal now?

Let's put it into a broader context with historian Douglas Brinkley, and the man I call the professor journalist par excellence. Ron Brownstein. Gentlemen, good to see you both.

RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Good to see you.

DOUGLAS BRINKLEY, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Good to see you.

BROWNSTEIN: In a blue shirt.

CUOMO: Douglas, what do we know from -- thank you very much. I usually I wear the uniform, but it's Saturday night so, you know, it's not really a normal show. So I have a normal uniform on.

BROWNSTEIN: Exactly.

CUOMO: These are anchors on this tie, was a Father's Day gifts say nothing. Douglas, what do we know from history about how it usually plays well for a president in extremists? What are the guidelines that usually lead to a successful coping with a bad situation? Wilson, JFK, Reagan, et cetera.

BRINKLEY: Well, I would really take a look at what happened to Dwight Eisenhower, it was September of 1955. He was in Colorado, and had a massive, I mean, massive heart attack. And instead his personal doctor, Howard Snyder told the press it was indigestion. And they kept that kind of myth going on for a long time.

Eisenhower was known as I like Ike. Eisenhower was the first president to actually open up medical records. But when a bad event happened, they went into a kind of cover up mode, meaning Sherman Adams and John Foster Dulles and the rest.

And I think it's an instinct that kicks in when a president sick people around them the team want to minimize it. In Eisenhower's case in '55, he had to run for reelection in 1956. And so the team wanted to make sure people didn't think he was weak.

And Donald Trump right now, with the election just days away, I think the -- you can get doctors, if you're a president to say anything, if they're your personal doctor or working in your sphere. So I think Mark Meadows was the one trying to shed some truth that the President's having a very, very hard time.

This is all politics mixed with this now. And the debate on October 15th is that date that Donald Trump has to be looking to emerge as the comeback kid like a Bill Clinton type of comeback just kind of show up there and, and shock people that he's back in the act.

CUOMO: All right, well, let's chew on this for a second, Ron. We know with Eisenhower, what was the legacy of that short term worked out long-term, you want to get the 25th amendment in 1967. Many said that it was based on wanting to have better reckonings of a president potential incapacity coming out of Eisenhower.

So what is the plus minus right now for Trump? Because for all the skepticism that oh, maybe he doesn't have it. This is terrible for Trump to get sick with a virus that he told everybody not to worry about. So how do you see the plus minus in the election for him?

BROWNSTEIN: Well, that's the point. I mean there's one line and kind of -- one line of history is, as Doug knows better than I, presidents often misleading when they face a serious health challenges. But there's a more immediate line to this day, which is the president from day one, misleading the American public about the severity something very different in private to Bob Woodward that he sent to the public.

And from the very beginning, sending one overriding message that his priority was getting the economy back to normal as fast as possible, whatever the implications for public health because he believed that projecting normalcy and restoring normalcy was his best chance of winning re election.

And this is manifests itself Chris in so many different ways in pressures on Republican governors to close down later than they should, reopen earlier than they should to invalidate mask requirements in states like Texas, and Florida, pressure on schools to reopen, on university, even pressure on college sports to start playing in every pot and of course, holding his giant rallies, often in defiance, explicit defiance of local public health officials down to the family refusing the Cleveland Clinic to wear masks at the debate in every possible way.

He has sent the American public and unmistakable signal that his priority is just keeping things going as close to normal as possible, whatever the public health consequences, and that is not going to change, I think, because he is personally facing now, some of the enormity of what this is.

CUOMO: Well, look, the President often watches, right, and he stays up late. So the President's watching right now. Whatever beefs there have been, I wish you well, and I hope you listen to your doctors and I hope you get better and listening to them will be the best way to do it.

[23:55:02]

Now, Douglas if he is watching what would be a way that we've seen in history for him to use the moment where he's been wrong on something? Now he's been hoisted on his own petard? Right? He's been blown up by his own bomb of deception, about COVID not being a big deal.

What could it mean to his legacy? If he were to own it, stop the videos from today, rationalizing bad decisions and say, put the mask on. We learned the lesson. That's how we get through this. Forget about the past. I look forward. I'm a leader. What could that mean?

BRINKLEY: It would be everything if he could show empathy. If not, you know what, by the way, if you're struck like FDR was with polio in 1921, he became a very different person after the polio had a much more human heart really did feel people's pain became somebody who empathize with the downtrodden.

This is a common occurrence of people that get a particular illness, then they try to, you know, heal people and talk about it. But this President is in a cover up mode right now. And I'm afraid that's the worst thing you've been doing transparency and tell people the truth.

CUOMO: As he learned with a diagnosis, life is change. And you got to make the most of where you are in the moment. Douglas Brinkley, Ron Brownstein, thank you both stay healthy. Heads and hearts in the right place. Appreciate it.

And thank all of you, especially on a Saturday night. Appreciate you watching. The news is going to continue right here on CNN.

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