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New Day

Pence & Harris Exchange Jabs Over COVID, Health Care & Jobs. Aired 5-5:30a ET

Aired October 08, 2020 - 05:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SEN. KAMALA HARRIS (D-CA), VICE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: The American people have witnessed what is the greatest failure of any presidential administration in the history of our country.

MIKE PENCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The American people have demonstrated over the last eight months, that when given the facts they're willing to put the health of their families and neighbors and people they don't know first.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He did everything that conservatives wanted and made people feel comfortable.

HARRIS: You respect the American people when you tell them the truth.

PENCE: You're entitled to your own opinion, but you're not entitled to your own facts.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pence was masterful in normalizing conservative ideas. What Kamala Harris had to go out there and do was to hang on to her base, which she did.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'd be very surprised to see much movement in the polls here.

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Alisyn Camerota and John Berman.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everyone.

This is a special edition of NEW DAY, 915 new deaths from coronavirus overnight. More than 50,000 new cases, 50,000.

So, no wonder the pandemic was the first and most important issue discussed in the vice presidential debate, the first ever vice presidential debate separated by plexiglass.

[05:00:04]

Senator Kamala Harris called the pandemic the greatest failure of any presidential administration in history. Mike Pence fought back and fought past debate time limits, but what mattered most, and what did voters think about it all?

We have the results of a snap poll, and we'll discuss with the smartest expert on Earth available at 5:00 a.m.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: That happen to be awake.

Also this morning, President Trump has returned to the Oval Office, and CNN has new details about Mr. Trump's desire to return to the campaign trail with rallies, even as he is being treated for coronavirus.

But let's start with the debate. CNN's Jason Carroll joins us live from Salt Lake City to break it all down.

Good early morning, Jason.

JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And good morning to you.

You know, that fly landing on the vice president's head was indeed an unexpected moment during the debate but what was expected is that the coronavirus would dominate much of it, and it did. But there were also other topics of discussion, including the Supreme Court as well as systemic racism. One thing both candidates had in common, their ability to dodge answering questions.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CARROLL (voice-over): In Wednesday's debate, Vice President Mike Pence and Senator Kamala Harris were not only separated by 12 feet and plexiglass for social distancing, but also on the issues.

Harris saying the Trump administration forfeited its right to reelection based on their handling of the coronavirus crisis.

HARRIS: The American people have witnessed what is the greatest failure of any presidential administration in the history of our country. They knew and they covered it up.

CARROLL: Meanwhile, Pence who leads the White House coronavirus task force defending their response despite the massive death toll.

PENCE: I want the American people to know from the very first day, President Donald Trump has put the health of America first.

HARRIS: Whatever the vice president is claiming the administration has done, clearly it hasn't worked. When you're looking at over 210,000 dead bodies in our country, American lives, that have been lost, families that are grieving that loss.

CARROLL: And when it came to a question on the progress of a viable vaccine, Harris said this.

HARRIS: If the doctors tell us that we should take it, I'll be the first in line to take it, absolutely. But if Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I'm not taking it. CARROLL: The vice president also downplaying the Rose Garden event

last month that may have started the coronavirus outbreak that infected President Donald Trump and a growing number of White House staffers.

PENCE: It was an outdoor event, which all of our scientists, regularly and routinely advise. The difference here is President Trump and I trust the American people to make choices in the best interest of their health.

CARROLL: And while it didn't reach the same level of chaos as the recent presidential debate --

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Can I be honest? It's a very important --

JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Try to be honest.

CARROLL: -- there were still some moments of tension on the stage.

HARRIS: Make less than $400,000 a year.

PENCE: He says he's going to repeal the Trump tax cuts.

HARRIS: Mr. Vice president, I'm speaking. I'm speaking.

PENCE: The importance is you say the truth.

CARROLL: Harris looking straight to cameras to tell voters a Trump- Pence ticket is a threat to the Affordable Care Act.

HARRIS: If you have a preexisting condition, heart disease, diabetes, breast cancer, they're coming for you.

CARROLL: The vice president dodging questions on the same subject.

SUSAN PAGE, DEBATE MODERATOR: How would your administration protect Americans with preexisting conditions have access to affordable insurance if the Affordable Care Act is struck down?

PENCE: Well, thank you, Susan, but let me just say, addressing your very first question. I couldn't be more proud to serve as vice president to a president who stands without apology for the sanctity of human life.

CARROLL: Harris also avoiding answering a question from her opponent about whether a Biden administration would pack the Supreme Court.

HARRIS: The American people are voting right now. And it should be their decision about who will serve on this most important body for a lifetime.

PAGE: Thank you, Senator Harris.

PENCE: And people, Susan, are voting right now, they'd like to know if you and Joe Biden are going to pack the Supreme Court if you don't get your way in this nomination.

HARRIS: Let's talk about packing.

PENCE: You gave a non-answer.

CARROLL: Like Trump, Pence warned he may not accept the election results while also falsely claiming that mail-in voting will lead to massive fraud. There's no proof of widespread voter fraud in the United States.

PENCE: We have a free and fair election. We know we're going to have confidence in it. And I believe in all my heart that President Donald Trump is going to be reelected for four more years.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CARROLL: And it should be noted that one of the rules of the debate was that everyone inside the debate hall with the exception of the candidates and the moderator were supposed to be wearing a mask. It should be noted that as soon as the debate was over, as second lady Karen Pence took the stage, she did not have her mask on, whereas Senator Harris's husband when he took the stage, his mask was on -- John.

[05:05:11]

BERMAN: All right. Jason Carroll for us in Salt Lake City -- Jason, thank you very much.

Joining us now, CNN political commentators Karen Finney and Scott Jennings. Karen was a senior spokesperson for Hillary Clinton's 2016 campaign. Scott, a special assistant to President George W. Bush. Also with us, CNN political analyst Toluse Olorunnipa, he is a White House reporter for "The Washington Post".

Friends, thank you all for being with us this morning so early.

And I will say this, because it is so early, I can make arbitrary rules because my bosses aren't awake to stop me.

CAMEROTA: Uh-oh.

BERMAN: And the arbitrary rule I'm going to set is, the one thing we can't say is, oh, if it didn't matter, or it won't matter, because if it doesn't matter by definition --

CAMEROTA: Give us this hour back.

BERMAN: -- it does matter. Well, that too.

But it does matter. But if it didn't matter, it does matter. Let that sink in for a moment.

So, Toluse, I'm going to go to you first because you're probably the one who got the least sleep because you had to report on this. What's your major takeaway? TOLUSE OLORUNNIPA, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, in a way, it doesn't

matter because it didn't change the trajectory of the race.

BERMAN: Those aren't the rules.

(CROSSTALK)

OLORUNNIPA: He's down double digits and he needed to change the trajectory of the race. And with, you know, 27, 28 days left before the election, every day, he needs to change the trajectory of the race, and that doesn't seem to be happening.

I think Kamala Harris was able to sort of do no harm to the position of the Biden campaign. They were able to, you know, put forward their points and really attack president Trump's administration over their handling of the coronavirus. That's the top issue.

That's an issue where the president is struggling. He just got out of the hospital. He was not able to keep himself safe, and that's part of the reason that Pence was on the ropes on that issue.

I think Pence did some -- made some good points when it came to the economy. He was able to land some punches on President Trump's economic record and vision versus Biden's. It didn't seem like either candidate came away with, you know, a major, massive, overwhelming win that will stick with the voters and the people will remember 27 days from now when they're voting. It seems like this is going to be just something that gets blown off the headlines when President Trump wakes up this morning and starts tweeting about God knows what.

CAMEROTA: Well, Scott, I mean, look, obviously, we are in a news cycle on steroids, no pun intended. But I think it did matter. I think it mattered on many different levels.

My own 15-year-old daughters were super excited to watch it. That matters that people are engaged, and I know you think it did matter for Republicans. I mean, I heard you say they have felt they needed a win for a while, and that last night felt good for them.

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: No question. In case you haven't noticed, it hasn't been the rosiest of pictures over the last several days for the Republican ticket and the news surrounding it.

And so, Republicans, and I would say a lot of down ballot Republican candidates were out there hoping for some kind of a good news cycle. Mike Pence delivered on that. He did what Donald Trump didn't do last week which was to prosecute the case on a number of policy areas where if Trump had slowed down a little last week, and not been so overly aggressive, he might have been able to do that.

Well, Pence delivered on that when he came to taxes, the economy, green new deal, trade deals, the court packing exchange was particularly good.

So, Pence came in and delivered solid exchanges and solid wins on all of these issues about which the Republicans want the race to be about. Now, whether this moves massive amounts of voters, I don't know. I

tend to view it through the lens of audience. I would think that some of the conservative seniors who have been moving away from the Republican ticket would very much have appreciated Pence's performance last night.

So, I'll be watching that cohort of voters very closely. I don't know that undecideds are going to look to a vice presidential debate to make their final decision. But, certainly, Pence gave you a nice, calm, sort of mainstream conservative view about what this ticket is about.

BERMAN: On the other hand, Karen Finney.

(LAUGHTER)

KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, sir.

BERMAN: Continue.

FINNEY: Yes, and I will stick to the rules and say I think it did matter, and I think it mattered because not as much on the substance, although I think one of the most important things about this debate was there was plexiglass on the stage. The COVID pandemic was front and center and that is the last thing this administration wants to be talking about right now. But it's inescapable because it is -- it's literally impacting our lives, all of our lives in big ways and small ways, from our economy, to our health care, to our loved ones.

So, (INAUDIBLE) but Senator Harris had a strong -- press the case, very forcefully coming out of the gate, if you will, in that first 30 minutes was very strong. I don't disagree with Scott that I think Mike Pence did what he was supposed to do, what he needed to do.

He was -- it was interesting, though. I mean, having prepped Senator Kaine in 2016, this was a very different Mike Pence on the stage last night.

[05:10:06]

He was much more aggressive in his own way. He was interrupting and talked over time, multiple times, and that sort of felt like there was a little bit of a feeling for me of desperation, that he knew he needed to get certain points in, and you could hear him sort of throwing in Green New Deal, and abortion and some soft those flash points that I thought like he knew he wanted to get to those points.

But Senator Harris was strong and firm. I thought she was -- you know, obviously, came across very truthful, but she had some very good moments looking directly into the camera. You could tell she also came prepared to handle some version, none of us thought we would get the Donald Trump version but some version of being interrupted, and I thought she handled herself quite well and did women proud on that stage and did the campaign proud.

So I think neither did any harm. I think it helped in that she hoped to press the case and stick to the issues in this election.

CAMEROTA: We have an example of that. I mean, this is, you know, a stylistic point I would say more than a substance point, but somehow because of who was on stage, the style does become in some ways the story.

Let's watch this moment of what Karen just alluded to.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: Susan, I -- this is important and I want to add --

PENCE: Susan, I have to weigh in here.

HARRIS: Mr. Vice President, I'm speaking.

PENCE: I have to weigh in.

HARRIS: I'm speaking.

PENCE: Repeal the Trump tax cuts.

HARRIS: Mr. Vice President, I'm speaking. I'm speaking.

If you don't mind letting me finish, we can then have a conversation.

PENCE: Please?

HARRIS: OK?

PENCE: Please.

HARRIS: OK.

Mr. Vice President, I'm speaking, I'm speaking. OK.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: I don't know. Karen, I just want to stick with you for a second. I don't know what to make, if that's her style or if, you know, on the larger issue, which we've heard some commentators say, women of color always have to deliver that with a smile. They always have to deliver that message gently and with a smile because that's where we are.

FINNEY: Yes, we do. And I can tell you personally, I have to do it all day every day. I mean, that's how women and women of color have to navigate all kinds of spaces, right? I mean, stylistically, I mean, she went in there understanding there were different dynamics in the way people would view her experience versus the vice president and how they responded to each other, and how they reacted to each other.

Again, I thought the vice president was really rude and interrupted a few times, and the way she came back I think, you know, actually amplified that by the fact that she firmly and with grace said I'm talking, and in a couple of times -- that instance that you just played, she -- it was literally her time to talk that he just busted right in.

So, I think she -- yes, I think she -- and I think a lot of women watching understood that. As a black woman, let's just put it on the table. If there is this stereotype and the trope of the angry black woman, and already at the end of the debate, I saw on conservative news sites, comments that she wasn't likable. Well, that is a very old trope about women and how we are judged in terms of our likability, not just in the substance.

So, that did matter greatly, and I think she did an excellent job and was very aware of those multiple dynamics that were playing in terms of how people would perceive what she was saying.

BERMAN: Toluse, do you have thoughts on this?

OLORUNNIPA: Yeah, I think any commentator or any site that talks about Senator Harris's likability, that did not talk about President Trump's likability last week when he was interrupting Joe Biden and bullying him and really attacking him in ways that, you know, are way out of proportion when you consider what happened last night, any site like that needs to really look in the mirror, and really wonder why they are taking this double standard.

But I do think that Harris was very aware of how she was coming across. She knew that a lot of Americans are yet to understand her and know about her. She tried to introduce some biographical information, talking about her mother, and how her mother would have been proud to see her on the stage.

She talked about her children, saying that, you know, they're in their 20s, and they're suffering in this economy, like a lot of people who are about to enter the labor market. So, she really wanted to introduce herself to the country. She did not want to come across as angry in some ways.

So, I do think she pulled punches if you compare, you know, her debate last night to some of the interrogations she does on the Senate Judiciary Committee or in the Senate where she's really grilling some of the nominees and some of the witnesses that come before her. So, we know that she has that, and in her as a former prosecutor, but she did some pull punches and dial it back a bit.

But she made her points, especially on health care. She really wanted to talk about health care, Mike Pence did not want to talk about health care. He pivoted very quickly several times, and that's clear -- it's a clear contrast between what the two campaigns want to be talking about.

COVID and health care for the Democrats, the economy and, you know, sort of contrasting a leftist view with the Trump view for the Republicans.

[05:15:04]

BERMAN: All right. Friends, stand by because there was something else that happened on that stage last night, a clear violation of the social distancing policies -- a fly. A fly spent several minutes --

CAMEROTA: Oh my god.

BERMAN: -- well within six feet of Mike Pence.

CAMEROTA: You know what? Tell me when it's a raccoon, you know?

BERMAN: Mark on his head, maybe stuck on his head. I guess we'll discuss this, I'm not sure there's that much to discuss about it, other than that to note it.

But we do have some more serious in-depth analysis on the debate, plus the results of the CNN snap poll on who voters thought won.

CAMEROTA: Why didn't you say the latest buzz?

BERMAN: Because too on the nose.

CAMEROTA: Too on the hair.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[05:20:00]

BERMAN: So I want to do a dramatic reenactment of some of the moments of the debate last night.

CAMEROTA: I love when you do this.

BERMAN: Alisyn, ask me what time it is.

CAMEROTA: John, what time is it?

BERMAN: Purple.

(LAUGHTER)

BERMAN: OK. So the point is there were many questions asked where the answers had just nothing to do with the issue at hand. Like different universe than the question asked.

Back with us, Karen Finney, Scott Jennings, and Toluse Olorunnipa.

Scott, I want to start with you and get your take on the non-answers to questions and in the spirit of the debate last night, if you feel like you have to go back and address something in the last segment, feel free to not answer my question.

JENNINGS: Well, Karen and I were on TV about four months ago, and it's -- I've been stewing on something all this time and I just want to go back there and aggressive on Karen.

FINNEY: Bring it on.

JENNINGS: And to be honest, I don't remember what it was, but it made me mad. (LAUGHTER)

JENNINGS: Look, it is an old -- it's an old debating tactic to try to avoid answering the questions that don't set up the correct frame, you know, for what you're strategically trying to accomplish. So, sometimes you answer the questions at hand. Sometimes, as both Pence and Harris did, they had to go back and tried to keep going on a topic that they really felt they needed to win on, and sometimes, you know, the framing wasn't right so they wanted to avoid it all together.

And I think a lot of candidates who don't have a lot of debating experience, they get trapped in this -- I've got to answer every question down to the -- and that's just not the way you would practice on a debate. So I think Pence and Harris skillfully navigated that tactical practice that you would do before you go into a big debate like this.

CAMEROTA: Let me just let viewers know what you're talking about, just give an illustration if you missed it, this is a moment where vice president Pence was asked about abortion, and asked about what would happen in his home state of Indiana if Roe v. Wade were struck down. So listen to this moment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAGE: If Roe v. Wade was overturned, what would you want Indiana to do? Would you want your home state to ban all abortions? You have two minutes, uninterrupted.

PENCE: Well, thank you for the question, but I'll use a little bit of my time to respond to that very important issue before. The American people deserve to know, Qassem Soleimani, the Iranian general was responsible for the deaths of hundreds of American service members.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Scott, what was that? I mean.

FINNEY: It's totally connected.

JENNINGS: Yeah, I mean, he was -- he clearly, I think when you're going into a debate like this, and Karen and, you can chime if you think I'm off base, but there are certain point that you go in definitely that you want to make, and if the topic moves on before you actually get to make your point, part of the practice would be to go back and try to get in the point if you can.

And so I saw both Pence and Harris really putting a lot of effort into that. I thought Mike Pence ably defended the conservative pro-life position, and he did it authentically, because --

CAMEROTA: But not there, you mean.

JENNINGS: -- he, clearly, authentically, believes in it.

But I thought the rest of the time he did a good job on the pro-life issue.

CAMEROTA: I see.

BERMAN: The other way to look at it, Karen -- go ahead, sorry.

FINNEY: Well, no, well, I have to say I agree with Scott on this. I mean, this is part of how when you prep candidates for debates, you know, remember, the thinking -- part of the calculation is you're going to have so much talking time, and how you're constantly reassessing how you're going to use that time throughout the debate.

And so yes, we always, you know, when you prep people, you say, look, if you feel like you've got to use part of your answer on one, to go back and finish, clean up something you wanted to say on the other, do it. That -- I think they both did that and they both did it quite well.

CAMEROTA: Well --

FINNEY: Look, I thought they did.

CAMEROTA: I mean, I guess, all I'll say is it doesn't serve the American public who actually wanted an answer. Like it might be great to debate jiu-jitsu, but if you were waiting for an answer about Indiana, you didn't get that.

FINNEY: No, you certainly didn't. But the second part is I don't think he wanted to give an answer, while, you know, the conservative position is a pro-life position, the reality is 7 in 10 Americans support Roe v. Wade, that most -- a majority of Americans believe that a woman should be able to make these reproductive decisions for herself. They don't believe in all these measures that have been passed at the state level, Indiana being one of the places where there have been attempts to do so, where you would criminalize women and criminalize doctors.

That's not the conversation that Mike Pence wanted to get into. He used his time and was able to get in the talking points about pro-life without having to answer the substance of the question and take on an issue that frankly would not be good for them with those suburban women they're trying to win back.

BERMAN: And we noted, Scott noted earlier and we noted in the piece we ran before, Toluse, that Kamala Harris didn't answer the questions about adding the number of justices to the Supreme Court. So, she evaded questions.

[05:25:00]

Also, Mike Pence didn't answer questions about whether or not he believes in the peaceful transfer of power. Mike Pence didn't answer questions about how the Trump administration will protect people with preexisting conditions. Mike Pence also didn't really answer about why the United States has so many more deaths than countries like South Korea and others here. And it might be in both cases that the reason you have a non-answer is because you feel like the answer isn't a good one.

OLORUNNIPA: Yeah, this is a talking point debate where both candidates did not want to come away from the night with any sound bites, they just wanted to get through the night, making their points without having a massive headline or a massive sound byte coming out that would reflect negatively on them.

Kamala Harris did not want her position on, you know, packing the court to be the sound bite of the night. Mike Pence it not want his position on a number of different issues from health care to COVID to be the sound byte of the night. They wanted to make their points. They wanted to press their policy decisions without necessarily having a situation that reflects what happened last week where you get the sound byte of President Trump saying, you know, Proud Boys, stand back, stand by, and that becomes one of the big major headlines of the day, and overshadows any of the policy debate.

So, it did seem like they came with their briefing books very well- rehearsed, and they did not want to sort of go outside of the bounds of what they had written down and studied, and did not want to come out of the night with a major sound bite that would show that maybe they had made a gaffe or they had gone cross-wise with the principal on the ticket.

It was clear they were playing it relatively safe, and they went through their list of talking points and when the questions strayed from those talking points, they steered the conversation right back to where their talking points were. So, that was really the consistent mood of the night in which both candidates did not want to do anything that would lead to this big, massive, negative headlines for them.

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: Guys --

FINNEY: I think there was a sound byte, I'm talking -- I'm still talking, Mr. Vice President. I think you're going to see that on t- shirts and hashtags coming near you soon.

CAMEROTA: Hmm.

BERMAN: I want to know one thing, thank you all so much for being with us and getting up early. This was terrific and wonderful and civil discussion, and we didn't even talk about the fly.

I kept on promising to tell people what voters said and thought about the debate. CNN did do a snap poll last night among registered voters who watched. About 59 percent, 6 in 10 said they thought Kamala Harris won, 38 percent thought Vice President Mike Pence did better.

CAMEROTA: All right, friends. Thank you very much for being up early with us and helping us get through all of this.

OK, meanwhile, the president is back in the Oval Office despite being still infected with coronavirus. Now, his advisers say he wants to get back on the campaign trail. We discuss that next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)