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13 Charged in Domestic Terror Plot to Kidnap Michigan Governor; Coughing Trump Says He's Healthy & Ready to Hold Rallies; Trump Rejects Virtual Format for Debate. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired October 09, 2020 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN VAUSE, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Thirteen people are facing charges for allegedly plotting to kidnap and kill Gretchen Whitmer, the governor of Michigan.

[05:59:21]

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Investigators say the men planned to kidnap Whitmer from her vacation home and put her on trial for treason.

GOV. GRETCHEN WHITMER (D-MI): I'm not going to let anyone scare me from doing my job.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: The next presidential debate now in doubt after President Trump rejected a move by organizers to make it virtual.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm not going to waste my time on a virtual debate.

JIM ACOSTA, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Claiming the president won't be contagious in a matter of days, the Trump campaign proposed postponing the debate.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: He wouldn't be out of his contagious period yet by CDC guidelines.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Alisyn Camerota and John Berman.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome to our viewers in the United States and all around the world. This is NEW DAY. It is Friday, the end of quite a week, October 9, 6 a.m. here in New York.

This morning, new information on the alleged domestic terror plot to kidnap the Democratic governor of Michigan. Thirteen people connected to extremist and far-right groups have been charged. We have new alarming details of the actions they took and the plans in place.

Also overnight, the first public reaction from the president. Instead of condemning, specifically, the plot or the alleged terrorists involved, he went after Governor Gretchen Whitmer.

Now, it is worth noting that in April, the president called on his Twitter followers to "liberate Michigan" after Whitmer imposed coronavirus restrictions. That coincided with scenes like this, armed protesters on the Michigan capital steps in Lansing.

Overnight, Whitmer told CNN that she had asked the White House to tamp down its inflammatory rhetoric after she started receiving threats.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: We'll have much more on that, but now to coronavirus.

The country is still in the grip of a spike in cases. Overnight, another 56,000 new cases. That's the highest daily total in nearly two months.

This morning, nine states are reporting record hospitalizations.

As for President Trump, still unclear, his health. His doctor says his recovery is going well. He says the president can return to public events tomorrow, though he will not say whether President Trump is still testing positive.

During a phone interview, Mr. Trump said he hoped to hold a rally in Florida tomorrow and another one in Pennsylvania this weekend, but in that same interview, the president had to stop twice to clear his throat and cough.

He also would not answer if he has tested negative.

So it's a very busy Friday morning. Let's begin with Sara Sidner live in Michigan with our top story -- Sara.

SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Alisyn, a stunning development here in Michigan, authorities saying they thwarted a domestic terrorist plot.

Now, that plot included targeting members of law enforcement, storming the capitol in Lansing, and kidnapping officials and the main target was governor Gretchen Whitmer.

But the governor is standing strong, saying she will not be intimidated.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SIDNER (voice-over): Thirteen men stand accused of a domestic terrorist plot to overthrow state governments. Some of the suspects CNN found online ranting about the government. One saying --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: By you partici -- participating in the government, you know, you are participating in slavery, dude.

SIDNER: The FBI says Michigan was to be ground zero.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Through confidential sources, undercover agents and clandestine recordings, law enforcement learned particular individuals were planning to kidnap the governor.

SIDNER: Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer has drawn angry reactions from armed groups opposed to her restrictions to slow the spread of the coronavirus. And investigators say those measures may be why the men targeted Whitmer, wanting to try her for treason.

According to the complaint, the suspects did surveillance on her vacation home and talked of blowing up a bridge to divert police if they attacked that location.

The complaint also indicates suspect Adam Fox was leading the charge and was recorded saying, "Grab the f'ing governor, just grab the 'B,' because at that point, we do that, dude, it's over."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The complaint further alleges that Fox purchased a Taser for use in the kidnapping and that the group successfully detonated an improvised explosive device wrapped with shrapnel to test its anti-personnel capabilities.

SIDNER: The federal government charged six men with conspiracy to kidnap Whitmer. The state charged seven others with firearm and terror charges.

WHITMER: I knew this job would be hard, but I'll be honest. I never could have imagined anything like this.

SIDNER: But in April, national security agents warned that extremist groups are exploiting the coronavirus pandemic to incite violence and bolster racist and anti-government narratives.

In this case, authorities said men associated with an anti-government group called the Wolverine Watchmen were involved in the alleged kidnap plot. A law enforcement source also telling CNN authorities believe some of the suspects support the extremist Boogaloo movement.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Boogaloo movement is a loosely affiliated network of individuals and groups that actively believe in the prospect and want to expedite violent unrest in the streets. What we might describe as civil war.

FRANK MEEINK, FORMER NEO-NAZI: Right now, we are in for a fight of our life. It's on.

SIDNER: Frank Meeink, a former neo-Nazi who went to prison in the '90s for kidnapping a member of a leftist group, says these kind of plots are being hatched more now than ever.

I spoke to him days before the kidnap plot was known to the public.

(on camera): What's the scenario in this election that would create what you're calling the potential of a race war?

[06:05:03]

MEEINK: I'm telling you, this is going to happen. States like Michigan, states like Wisconsin, the northern states that have some wilderness area, there have been militias from other states training up there. They are waiting and hoping that something does go wrong, because they want to hold up in them hills. And they want to say, We don't want the federal government up here no more. We don't want to let black people or anybody -- like, this is going to be our homeland.

SIDNER (voice-over): He says President Trump's rhetoric has emboldened extremists. Governor Whitmer said the same, mentioning the president's words to a far-right group during the debate.

WHITMER: "Stand back and stand by." Hate groups heard the president's words not as a rebuke, but as a rallying cry, as a call to action.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SIDNER: Now the White House is responding, the spokesperson saying in part that Governor Whitmer is sowing division by making these outlandish allegations. America, they said, stands united against hate and in support of the federal law enforcement, which stopped this plot.

We've also seen Donald Trump tweeting this morning. President Trump tweeting not against this alleged plot, but against the governor herself, saying that she's done a terrible job for locking down the state for everyone.

Remember, her decision to try to lock down the state and mandate masks is to try and help save lives. We should also mention that the six men who are facing federal charges did appear in court on Thursday, and they asked for court-appointed attorneys -- John.

BERMAN: Sara Sidner, that is chilling. Your report is chilling. Not the least of which for reasons that you've been doing interviews. There's clearly such concern about this. But you've been talking to people even before this specific plot came to light.

SIDNER: Yes.

BERMAN: So this is clearly something that is of major concern right now.

Sara, don't go far. Stay right there. We want to bring in CNN senior law enforcement analyst, Andrew McCabe. He's the former deputy director of the FBI.

Andy, thanks for being with us. You say that an FBI moves on a plot like this when they see intent and they see capability. Clearly, they saw both in this instance.

What else jumps out to you from this alarming headline that they arrested people in connection with a plot to kidnap a sitting governor of a state?

ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, John, you're absolutely right. You know, the FBI gets their hands on a lot of information every day, particularly on social media, which is a very effective way of finding extremists and uncovering some of these plots. And many of them don't go any further than boasting and nonsense online.

But when you look at those two factors, intent and capability, this is a plot that clearly rose to the top of their radar. And it's absolutely, as you say, chilling to look at the indicators of that.

The statements that have been recorded in the course of this investigation prove intent beyond any sort of doubt. You've got these folks talking about not just kidnapping the governor, but also maybe just showing up at her house, ringing the doorbell, and shooting her when she answers the door.

They talk about multiple bombs, possibly distributing bombs to other people, blowing up a bridge to stop the police response at the governor's house.

And then you talk -- then you look to the side of capability. You had the players in this plot actually reaching out and obtaining precursor materials to build explosive device, building those devices, and then blowing them up in a sort of practice or dry run. They do multiple instances of tactical training with firearms at covert locations. It's just -- it's got all of the hallmarks of a very serious and very dangerous plot.

CAMEROTA: I mean, Sara, to Andy's point, what we now know, what the police allege is that these guys met repeatedly over the summer for firearms training, combat drills, and practice building explosives. I mean, it just reminds me of the very same thing that we would hear about ISIS or that we would hear about al Qaeda. I mean, you know, what the -- what law enforcement alleges are terrorist tactics.

And so, you know, President Trump tweeted, "I do not tolerate any extreme violence, defending all Americans, even those who oppose and attack me, is what I will always do as your president." Then he goes into the political attack: "Governor Whitmer, open up your state, open up your schools, open up your churches."

That's the problem right there, Sara, is that, you know, the president can say whatever he wants, but those guys, the alleged terrorists, they hear the dog whistle.

SIDNER: They -- they absolutely do. And these groups that track hate, that track extremism, like the Antidefamation League, had already put out a warning not long ago, before all of this happened, talking about the fact that, as we lead up to this election, and not just the lead- up to the election, the election day itself, and the days afterward, especially if the election is close, that this kind of rhetoric can really ramp things up. It can help incite violence.

[06:10:05]

And so there is a lot of concern on those who track these sort of extremist groups, that any sort of talk that helps to ramp up or incite is going to be a real problem for the American people. It could have a devastating effect. No one knows exactly when or where, but this plot gives you an idea of just how serious this threat really, really is, Alisyn.

BERMAN: I've got a point and a question for Andy McCabe. First the point here.

The attorney general of the United States, William Barr, has made a big spectacle of showing up to anywhere where there is federal law enforcement action on urban crime or what he considers to be leftist crime. This is a four box. These pictures include Washington, D.C., Chicago, Kansas City, Milwaukee. He's there, man. He can't get there fast enough to announce actions against urban or what he considers leftist crime.

I don't think he's said anything yet about this, the arrest of more than ten individuals connected with a plot to kidnap a Democratic governor, because, look, I mean, the people charged are connected to right-ring or extremist groups.

Now, my question, Andy McCabe, is you've been on the inside. Now, the charging documents here and the official documents don't make any mention of the president's rhetoric. I want to make that abundantly clear. But from being on the inside, what effect have you seen from language from the top like this?

MCCABE: John, I can tell you that, from having worked dozens and dozens and dozens of plots just like this, on the international terrorism or domestic terrorism side, doesn't make any difference. We know that in the FBI, that our extremist population, particularly here in the United States, watches these things very closely.

They read the court documents in cases that come out. And they are constantly looking for the signal, the sign, the thing that will indicate to them that it's time to activate now.

So words like we've gotten from the president over the last week or so, the shout-out to the Proud Boys during the debate to stand by, there is no question in my mind that right-wing groups hear those words and, to them, that is a signal to be ready to go, to move forward and to put their plans into motion. It's very, very dangerous.

CAMEROTA: OK. Andy McCabe, Sara Sidner, thank you very much for sharing all of your investigations and reporting with us. Obviously, we'll cover this all morning.

BERMAN: All right. We have a lot of news this morning. We're watching a number of developments. Vice President Mike Pence was supposed to cast his ballot in Indiana today. Instead, he took an unplanned flight back to Washington, D.C. We'll tell you about what we know about his unexpected return to Washington, next.

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[06:16:58]

CAMEROTA: President Trump wants to resume campaign rallies this weekend. He has not been seen in public, at least, since Monday, and he will not say when he was last tested and if that test was positive or negative. But he did give a phone interview last night in which he did not sound entirely healthy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP (via phone): I mean, the last time I had a big problem, they oscillated my mics when I had the one debate. We had three debates with Hillary. And on, I think, the first debate, they --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes --

TRUMP: Excuse me. On the first debate, they oscillated the mic.

Well, I want them to vote, but let me say this, absentee is OK, because absentee ballots -- excuse me. Absentee ballots are fine.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: CNN's Joe Johns is live at the White House. What do we know, Joe, about his health?

JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Right, good morning, Alisyn.

Look, the president's erratic behavior continued pretty much all day Thursday and into the night. We had that telephone interview on FOX that you just referenced, where he said he wanted to go down to Florida for a rally on Saturday and maybe up to Pennsylvania on Sunday.

Then, yesterday morning, we had that wild interview, once again on the phone, in which the president called Kamala Harris a communist and a monster and said he wasn't going to participate in the second presidential debate.

We also got another one of those little notes from the president's physician, Sean Conley, always prefaced by saying, This is going out with the president's permission. Also saying the president should be good to go to return to his regular engagements on Saturday.

But let's be clear: we don't even know whether the president is contagious or not. He was asked last night in that interview whether he had tested negative. He did not answer the question. But he did say he expects to get tested today.

And the other headline, of course, is that the president has just not been seen here at the White House by reporters.

Now, we have had those little propaganda videos that the White House has put out, where the president has said he feels great, he's found a cure for coronavirus. There is no cure for coronavirus.

But the White House press camera, the press pool has not seen the president, so we haven't been able to get a visual on him to sort of see for ours how he's looking.

Alisyn, back to you.

CAMEROTA: And they wonder why we have questions, Joe. Thank you very much.

Joining us now is CNN political correspondent, Abby Phillip.

Abby, why won't his doctors say if he's tested positive or negative? I mean, what is so hard -- why won't President Trump say that?

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Probably because he hasn't tested negative. And it probably is because he may not test negative before he returns to his public engagements, as his doctor put it.

You know, I do think that we don't know whether he's contagious or not. I think his doctors are going to make a determination about that. But there are some questions about what the public should trust about the president's health, his level of contagion, and frankly, that of those around him, and also what the Biden campaign and the debate commission ought to trust about that information.

[06:20:14]

I thought it was interesting that Dr. Conley made an indication about when the president could go back and do rallies or what have you without saying what kind of information, medical data he's using to make that determination.

It basically came down to, well, it's been ten days since the onset of symptoms. And you know, I'm not a doctor, but other doctors have made it very clear that, given the president's severity of the disease that he had, perhaps that may not be the judge.

Either way, I just want to know, on what basis? And I think that's the question that everyone has because of the way that the White House has obfuscated about this situation from the very beginning. It's just hard to know what you can trust. And when you're putting the president in a situation where he could potentially infect other people, I think we ought to have more concrete information.

BERMAN: Absolutely. Look, I'm not a doctor. I am a political reporter and from that standpoint, the decisions and the actions the president has taken and the things that he's said over the last 24 hours are just bizarre. Beyond bizarre in some cases, to the point of being politically destructive.

Now, as I said, I'm not a doctor, but Rick Bright, who spoke to Jake Tapper, who ran, for a while, vaccine research for the -- you know, the public health department, so the government before he was pushed aside and became a whistle-blower. This is what he says.

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DR. RICK BRIGHT, FORMER DIRECTOR OF THE BIOMEDICAL ADVANCED RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT AUTHORITY: You know, what we're missing in this whole situation is transparency about, really, how sick the president is. We don't really have the truth about when he was infected, what stage of infection he's in. I don't think we know all of the various treatments he was given and what combination and what dosage. It's very dangerous.

He's in charge of a lot of things and makes a lot of important decisions for our country and for the world, actually. And if he's not in the right, sound mind to make those decisions rationally, then he can be very reckless for our country and for the world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: So keep in mind what Rick Bright just said and then remember what took place yesterday with this debate decision, Abby, which is political malpractice.

What the Trump campaign and the president did yesterday was political malpractice. The debate commission announces that they want to do -- or they will do the next debate virtually.

The president says, I'm out. I'm out. The campaign puts a message out that says, We're out.

And when what does the Biden team do? They're like, OK, we take your word for it, you're out. Bye, felicia. You know? And that's it. It's over.

And now the Trump team is trying to claw its way back into a debate, but it's too late. You're seeing self-destructive behavior here.

PHILLIP: Yes. They really can't seem to figure out exactly what the strategy is here, and that's partly because they're just following the president's lead. The president is making the decisions about how they approach this.

And I don't know what -- on what basis he's making these decisions. And it's not just the debate. It's also the stimulus talks. You know, a couple of days ago, the president abruptly pulled out of stimulus talks on Capitol Hill in a way that made absolutely no political sense, walking away from an opportunity to inject cash into the American financial system.

And now, yesterday, you know, our Phil Mattingly is reporting that the president is completely changing course, because apparently, he's realized that wasn't a smart decision.

Look, part of this is hard to gauge, because President Trump actually has done many of these things in the past. He's made these kinds of rash decisions in the past.

But at the same time, with so few days left until the election, you would think that there would be more thought put into the strategy here.

And you know, I don't know whether President Trump actually wants to debate Joe Biden, to be honest. I mean, you know, he -- there's no substantiative difference, really, between virtual debate and one that is physically in person.

And given -- given the fact that he's just recovering from this virus, it may be in his best interests to have a virtual debate and to have, you know, an in-person one down the road. But none of that seems to have been contemplated.

BERMAN: Well --

PHILLIP: He's just acting on his gut.

BERMAN: He's -- As behind as the polls suggest he might be, he needs as many debates as possible.

PHILLIP: Yes.

BERMAN: When you're behind, you need something to change the trajectory.

CAMEROTA: It's not like the last debate boosted --

PHILLIP: Yes.

CAMEROTA: -- his ratings, John. So maybe it's best for him not to debate.

BERMAN: But he's got to have something. Look, traditionally speaking, in a campaign if you were behind, you need something to change the direction. And debates are that.

CAMEROTA: But why would you ever start a sentence with "traditionally speaking"?

PHILLIP: Right. The debates could be that, right, for this president, for a normal -- you know, a normal situation. But this is not a president who is, it seems like planning to change his strategy at all.

I mean, the very behavior that he demonstrated in that debate, he has been demonstrating in these interviews, calling Kamala Harris a monster, just showing the temperamental problems that have alienated him from the voters that he needs, whether it's older voters or suburban women voters.

[06:25:07]

So I'm not sure that the president actually thinks that the debate necessarily will be the game changer. In fact, I think he's looking to other things to be the game changer. He's been pushing increasingly this talk about prosecuting the Obama administration officials that he accuses of having a coup against him.

I think the president wants some kind of sort of Comey-esque October surprise to weigh in, in this election. And I don't know that -- that he thinks that the debate is that thing, because his strategy is ultimately not going to change. He's going to be himself. And that is really, frankly, the reason why he's having a hard time getting -- closing this chasm with women, with Joe Biden.

He's having a hard time getting older voters to be convinced that he's not sort of -- he doesn't have a callous disregard for their wellbeing and whether or not they survive this pandemic.

CAMEROTA: Haven't we already had enough October surprises? I mean, I know it's early, but --

PHILLIP: I mean, yes.

CAMEROTA: You know. Abby, thank you very much for all of the reporting and analysis.

OK, 56,000 new coronavirus cases reported overnight. There are record hospitalizations in nine states. We have the latest on the outbreaks across the country, next.

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