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Trump Rejects Virtual Format; More Drop Boxes in Ohio; Domestic Terror Plot against Michigan Governor. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired October 09, 2020 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:30:00]

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: All of the debate details for Bush, Romney, like what -- what temperature the room should be and stuff like that. And so, from your expertise in this, is there a way to negotiate their way back into this? I mean are the debates off? Are they on? What do you -- what did you hear yesterday when it was sort of canceled?

BEN GINSBERG, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: There's certainly some road blocks that got thrown up yesterday to have the two remaining debates. But in these things there is always a way to negotiate, but it depends on both candidates believing that it is in their interest. And so the difficulties with the president's getting the coronavirus means that there are all sorts of incentives to be safe rather than sorry. The political dynamic does not give Joe Biden a real reason to want to have other debates. Donald Trump desperately needs one. And so you have a difference in the strategies, I think, of the two campaigns that make finding a resolution more difficult.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: The difference in strategies? I'm not so sure there is a strategy in the Trump campaign, Ben, because this is why I desperately wanted you on because yesterday when the debate commission made its decision, which they say was based on science, Donald Trump's first reaction, and the Trump campaign's first reaction was, we're not going to do the debate. How on earth does it make sense for a campaign ten points behind in some polls to walk away from a debate? That seems like malpractice.

GINSBERG: I was -- I was puzzled by that. I think the virtual debate would not be as good. I think his initial reaction was probably, they'll cut off my mic after two minutes. That would be a rapid change from -- from the previous debate. And, secondarily, I suppose the Trump campaign could say to the commission, let your Cleveland Clinic doctors examine him and clear him if they want a future debate. Neither one has happened so far.

CAMEROTA: David Axelrod, are we going to have more debates or not?

DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I suspect there will be one more debate on October 22nd, but I totally agree with Ben. I mean, Biden -- there's a basic rule of politics, if you're ahead, you don't have a great incentive to debate. If you're behind, you desperately need one. The Biden campaign agreed to three debates. I imagine if the president -- if the president is able to debate on October 22nd, they will be there on October 22nd. But, frankly, if there are no more debates, that would be fine with him, too. He's ten points ahead in this race. He's got the ball and the clock and everything's working in his favor. So, you know, I think the president will show up on the 22nd if his health permits and he claims his health permits here.

You know, one thing on the virtual debate is, he's going out to rallies on Saturday. And if he agreed to a virtual debate because there was -- there were concerns about the communicability of his coronavirus, you know, on the 15th, it would be a -- it would be a conflicting message. But he needs these debates and, at the end of the day, I don't think he's got a great negotiating position here.

BERMAN: Well, because of what he did. I mean he out negotiated himself right away.

AXELROD: Yes.

BERMAN: He just walked away at the outset. And if the Biden campaign did what I think any campaign would do, which was say, OK, OK, if you're going to crack the door open, we'll drive a truck through it. And, Axe, I read your Twitter feed. You say the president has turned his own political suicide into a surreal reality show.

AXELROD: Yes. I mean, I -- look, I think he -- first of all, that last bit, you say Ben negotiated the temperature of the room in the debates. I'm sure the Trump folks would have liked to have turned his temperature down a little bit in that first debate because that was a terribly destructive event and he's been cascading downward since even before he got sick. He's in a very bad position and all his antics since he got the virus has just reminded people why they were disillusioned with his handling of the virus in the first place. You know, he has -- he hasn't been straight with people about that.

So I think he is just driving himself into a deeper and deeper hole and I'm sure the people around him are aware of it. I just don't think anybody can stop him.

CAMEROTA: Ben, one of the things that I think the Trump camp came back with yesterday when they wanted back in to the debate negotiation was, OK, let's do it October 29th in person. And then I think the Biden camp said, no, that's too close to the election.

Why is that too close to the election?

GINSBERG: It's too close to the election because in the last week of the campaign you want your candidate out as much as possible, meeting people, whether that's virtually or doing live rallies. The fact of the matter is, is that to prepare for any debate requires a candidate to take down time from the campaign trail. And so that late would take you away interest that essential function of a campaign.

[08:35:04]

Plus, so many people this year will have voted already by October 29th that it doesn't make much sense to have something.

BERMAN: Negotiator Ben Ginsberg would never allow a debate four days before Election Day. I know that for sure.

David Axelrod, I do want your take -- the Biden campaign, Joe Biden, Kamala Harris, and anyone associated with the campaign refuses to answer questions now about the vice president's stance on adding to the number of Supreme Court justices or ending the filibuster. They say it's a distraction. But I want you to listen to the still new way that Vice President Biden avoided the question yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: You'll know my opinion on court packing when the election's over.

Now, look, I know it's a great question and y'all -- and I don't blame you for asking. But you know the moment I answer that question, the headline in every one of your papers will be about that. Other than -- other than focusing on what's happening now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: I'm not sure that his team wanted him to say I'll answer the question after the election, David. What's the right way to handle this?

AXELROD: The right way to handle it is, look, we've got really, really grave issues facing this country, the coronavirus, an economy that's in the ditch. I'm going to have my hands full and, frankly, I want -- you know, I'm not in the middle of contemplating that question right now. I've got other things on my plate. And we'll approach it at the appropriate time.

I mean -- which is, I think, a very valid answer. But, you know, listen, here's the deal, you know, he's on a ledge on this one because the Democratic -- some of the Democratic base are going to be really eager to add seats to the court. It doesn't poll well nationally. It's, I think, a 32 percent issue nationally. So he either displeases his base or displeases everybody else. Better not to answer the question is the calculation that he's making.

The risk he's running is that by not answering it, seems to -- you know, any -- everybody can paint their worst interpretation on the answer. But I think they've weighed the pluses and minuses of those and they've decided that the -- that straddling is the best way to go here.

CAMEROTA: Gentlemen, we have to let you go. But, Ben, is there any way you could negotiate the temperature in the studio here for me? I've lost feeling in my hands.

John keeps it too --

GINSBERG: Sure, I'm happy to try that.

CAMEROTA: Thank you.

GINSBERG: I have to deal with my house, though.

CAMEROTA: I know. All of those temperature disagreements. I know them well.

Ben, David, thank you both very much.

AXELROD: Good to see you.

CAMEROTA: Overnight, a federal judge striking down restrictions on ballot drop boxes in one crucial swing state. We have all the details for you ahead in a live report.

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[08:41:9]

BERMAN: In Ohio, a federal judge has blocked an order from the secretary of state that would limit ballot drop boxes to just one location per county. In a scathing opinion, the judge slammed the secretary of state for jeopardizing the right to vote.

CNN's Kristen Holmes live in Washington with more.

The battle continues, Kristen.

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, John. And we should note, this is a big win for voter advocacy groups and Ohio Democrats who had been fighting this issue. The secretary of state, he has already filed an appeal. But the judge did not issue a stay, meaning that this will go into effect immediately, which is important since early voting has already begun in Ohio.

And, John, you mentioned that this was a scathing opinion. I want to read to you in part what this Ohio judge said. He wrote, "the court holds that the directive significantly burdens the right to vote and ultimately may have the effect of deterring many people from voting or forcing them to risk their health by voting in person. Voting began on October 6th, and absent injunctive relief, registered voters will be deprived of a fair election."

And one thing the judge also noted was that this directive would directly impact communities of color. And I think it's important that we continue to report that out. All of these voter limitations, limiting access for voters, that affects communities of color in a huge proportion across the country, John, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: Thank you very much, Kristen, I'll take it here. Thanks for all of that reporting.

So staying active is more important than ever for our physical and mental health. And for people recovering from addiction, it can be a life saver. 2012 CNN hero Scott Strode and his nonprofit provide free athletic activities and a sober support community for thousands of people. So when coronavirus forced the organization to close its gyms, they had to find ways to stay connected online.

CNN correspondent Phil Mattingly joined a Phoenix class to see how they've kept the interaction going strong.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Key moment, everyone. Let's try to get two or three more. You've got 20 seconds. Nice job, Phil.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: What was kind of your thought when coronavirus first started to spread and lockdowns really started to kick into gear?

SCOTT STRODE, CNN HERO: I just knew that that social isolation was going to be a big risk for relapse for a lot of people. So pretty quickly we pivoted to offering virtual programs. We knew we had to keep people connected in this sort of uncertain and stressful time.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Three, two, one and down for the sit up.

STRODE: Just always lifts my heart to log into a Phoenix virtual class and meet somebody in recovery who's doing the workout in their basement somewhere in Tennessee where we don't even have in-person programs but they can come to the Phoenix anyway.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Whoo, nice job, everyone.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: To learn more about Scott's program and to see if Phil Mattingly made it through the class, go to cnnheroes.com.

OK, our top story, an extremist plot to kidnap the Democratic governor of Michigan. Did the president's language about liberating the state from coronavirus lockdowns play a role in this? Michigan's attorney general is going to join us live, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:49:05]

BERMAN: We're learning more about the alleged domestic terror plot to kidnap the Democratic governor of Michigan, Gretchen Whitmer. Thirteen suspects have been arrested in a coordinated effort by state and federal authorities.

Joining us now is the attorney general of Michigan, Dana Nessel.

Thank you so much for being with us this morning.

What can you tell us about the scope of this alleged plot, how big was it and whether there are any loose ends still out there?

DANA NESSEL (D), MICHIGAN ATTORNEY GENERAL: Well, it was an extensive plot. There's no question about that. And I think what's important for people to know is that it's not just the organizations that were alleged to have committed these offenses in the both federal and state complaints, there are many groups operating out there. And if you recall, the director of the FBI has stated quite clearly that domestic terrorism is one of the biggest threats that we have ongoing to our security in the United States.

[08:50:05]

And I think that this case really demonstrates that. But the fact is, there are multiple groups that are operating across multiple jurisdictions in many different states and it is something that we need to be very concerned about.

What we're seeing here in Michigan right now, it's not just a Michigan problem, it's an American problem, and I think there's going to be more incidences to come.

BERMAN: On exactly this point, our terrific reporter, Sara Sidner, had been working on a story in Michigan prior to these arrests where she was speaking to a former neo-Nazi. And I want you to listen to the concerns that he raised three days ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: What's the scenario in this election that would create what you're calling the potential of a race war?

FRANK MEEINK, FORMER NEO-NAZI: I'm telling you the -- this is going to happen. States like Michigan, states like Wisconsin, the northern states have some wilderness area, there have been militias from other states training up there. They are waiting and hoping that something does go wrong because they want to holed up in them hills and they want to say, we don't want the federal government up here no more. We don't want to let black people or anybody -- like this is going to be our homeland.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: As you said, this isn't just a Michigan problem, this is something that is happening around the country. It was really stark to hear that warning just a few days ago.

What are you doing to protect against this over the next three weeks?

NESSEL: Well, I will say that both the federal authorities and authorities across multiple states are very active, very engaged. And to that gentleman's point, you know, I think the message to be sent is, don't think that we don't know about it, that we're not watching and that we are not in a position where we will intervene in the event we see immediate threats.

But can I bring up a point that no one seems to be talking about? Over the summer United States Attorney General Bill Barr testified under oath, before the House Judiciary Committee, that he had no idea that there were any threats being made at all to the governor of the state of Michigan, and yet his own authorities were actively working to foil these types of plans and these threats, which seems very curious to me that either, a, he didn't know what was happening in his own Justice Department or, b, he committed perjury.

BERMAN: In fact, the attorney general, William Barr, we've seen him in public associated with many federal law enforcement operations. You can see there up on the screen, he's gone to be there in person to places like Kansas City and Milwaukee and Chicago to associate himself with operations fighting urban violence or fighting what he considers to be leftist violence.

What have you heard from the attorney general yourself since these arrests were made?

NESSEL: Well, I think whether it's from the president of the United States or whether it's from Bill Barr, every time we see arrests or intervention when it comes to these right wing extremist groups, there almost seems to be some sort of pattern of condoning these activities and then immediately pointing to left wing groups, like Antifa. And I will tell you, we have a lot of investigations going on in our office right now, nothing about Antifa, nothing about any left wing groups that had been brought to our attention. Unfortunately, a lot of activity involving right wing groups.

And when we talk about domestic terrorism, you know, I -- you know, the president doesn't skip a beat when it comes to calling out extremism when it comes from, say, you know, someone who is Muslim or a person of color. But when it is right wing white men that seem to be involved in these activities, you rarely hear anything come out of the president's mouth that would presume that he opposes their conduct. And it's very disturbing. And I think it's really -- everybody keeps talking about it being a dog whistle to these groups, but I see it more as a call to action.

BERMAN: Again, have you heard at all from the attorney general of the United States? This was an FBI action, federal law enforcement and state law enforcement working together. Any outreach at all from William Barr?

NESSEL: No, but I will say, I'm very appreciative of the hard work that federal authorities put into these cases here. And we worked in conjunction with the FBI, as well as the U.S. attorneys from both the eastern and western districts of Michigan. So these are individuals who care deeply about their jobs. And I think the message is, whether or not you think that Washington, D.C., is very interested in whatever the president has to say about this or whatever the United States attorney general has to say about it, you know, those who are lifetime members of law enforcement care deeply about this and, of course, again, it's not just a plot to, you know, kidnap and execute our governor, but it goes much further than that, including acts of violence against law enforcement themselves.

[08:55:02]

BERMAN: We have about 30 seconds left. What specifically are you doing at this point or how are you preparing to protect the polls on Election Day?

NESSEL: Well, we are working in conjunction with state police, county prosecutors, municipal police departments. And I would like to send this message to your viewers. If you plan to vote in the state of Michigan, and I will say this for states all across the country where attorneys general are very engaged, we will ensure that it is safe and secure and that you can vote without threat. And that is more important to us right now than virtually anything.

BERMAN: Attorney General Dana Nessel, thank you for the update on the investigation and the status of the situation in Michigan. We appreciate your time. Please stay safe.

NESSEL: Thank you.

BERMAN: All right, coronavirus cases and hospitalizations surging across the country. Nine states with a record hospitalizations. CNN's coverage continues right after this.

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