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New Day

36 States Seeing Surge in Cases, No States on the Decline; Washington Post Reports, Justice Department Unmasking Probe Ends With No Charges; FBI Says, Virginia Governor Also Targeted in Kidnapping Plot. Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired October 14, 2020 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[07:00:00]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN NEW DAY: Welcome the viewers in the United States and all around the world. This is New Day.

Nearly 216,0000 Americans dead from coronavirus and new measurements this morning we have not seen in months, bad signs, 36 states seeing a new increase in new cases, zero states seeing a decline.

Now, we don't think we've seen that since April. Hospitalizations are at a level we haven't seen since August. 52,000 new cases were reported just yesterday. Wisconsin is opening a field hospital to handle the expected acceleration of cases and hospitalizations, New Mexico partially rolling back its reopening.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN NEW DAY: There is also very interesting new reporting this morning about the White House's approach towards the pandemic. The New York Times and The Washington Post both report that some unnamed White House officials are explicitly embracing herd immunity. That's the theory that encourages people to actually contract the virus.

Former Harvard Medical Professor William Haseltine just offered this stark assessment of that plan.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAM HASELTINE, FORMER PROFESSOR, HARVARD MEDICAL SCHOOL: Herd immunity is another word for mass murder. That is exactly what it is. If you allow this virus to spread, as they are advocating, we are looking at 2 million to 6 million Americans dead, not just this year, but every year.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: All right. We will get into that plan with Sanjay Gupta.

Meanwhile, The Washington Post reports that the entire unmasking conspiracy that the Trump administration has been peddling for years has resulted in nothing, no charges against anyone, and interestingly, no written report. But we begin with the coronavirus pandemic. And joining us now is CNN's Chief Medical Correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta. Sanjay, so glad that you're here.

Before we get to herd immunity, let's just look at that map one more time because I think that a lot of people need to see something with their own eyes, obviously, before you can understand it. I know that this has been visually striking to me this morning. Not a single speck of green on the U.S. map. We don't think we've seen this since early April.

So I know you've been sounding the alarm that things are going in the wrong direction and here it is visually.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, no question. This is not what we want to see, Alisyn. And there's been these hints and clues now for several weeks that this was the direction that we're headed in. And I remember you and I had a conversation, I think, a few weeks ago where we said, it's hard to look at the map right now and see any place that isn't still vulnerable as a result of what's happening, because of reopenings of schools, because of increased mobility, because of the colder weather.

And also, you know, just frankly, historically, you look at other respiratory viruses, including 1918, why do people get so, you know, worried about this period of the year? It's because respiratory viruses under even normal circumstances tend to have significant increases right now.

So you compound that on top of what's already happening with this -- with the amount of virus that's spreading in our country, compound this on top of, you know, upcoming flu season, and this is really worrisome. I mean, it was that second wave back a hundred years ago that was, you know, the most problematic. That's what we're trying to avoid.

BERMAN: I've got to tell you, it's not even cold out yet. People could still get together outside. We're not even a month into fall. And if this is what's happening already, I'm deeply concerned about the winter.

Sanjay, a pretty important new development, I think, coming out of the White House, we've known for some time that Scott Atlas and the body language from the White House has been that they are supportive of the idea of herd immunity, letting people catch the virus. Now, it seems to be explicit.

There was a background conference call being reported by The Washington Post and The New York Times where White House officials, unnamed, because that was the ground rules of the conference call, were supportive of this great Barrington declaration, which is a document, a manifesto of sorts, from a very few scientists who is basically say, herd immunity is the way to go.

Let me read you what this document says, that is now supported explicitly by some people in the White House. They says, the most compassionate approach that balances the risks and benefits of reaching herd immunity is to allow those who are at minimal risk of death to live their lives normally to build up immunity to virus through natural infection while better protecting those who are at highest risk.

Professor Haseltine, we played it on the open, Sanjay, said this is another term for mass murder. What do you think of this new explicit endorsement of this idea?

GUPTA: Yes. I mean, first of all, you are absolutely right. They have essentially been saying this for some time, and then saying that they're not saying it. They would say all of these things that basically were advocating for herd immunity and then when asked, are you advocating for herd immunity, they would say, of course not. Well, they were.

And that's exactly what you're describing, John. I mean, letting this infection sort of go through the community unchecked and trying to do what they call this focus on protecting the vulnerable population.

[07:05:07]

A couple of things. First of all, we can just show these numbers. With herd immunity, just to give you some idea, and people know this generally by now, but what does that mean? It would mean that 60 to 70 percent of the population becomes infected. That's a large enough number that they essentially create a herd of protection around other people.

We know that with around 10 percent of the country that's become infected, 216,000 people have died, roughly. So just do the math there. What happens if you start to multiply that times six or seven? That's where you're starting to get into the 1.4 to 2 million number of people who would potentially die, and, potentially, as Dr. Haseltine said, every year.

Also, we don't know how long the immunity lasts from natural infections. It could several months, but maybe not an entire season. It's a terrible strategy. Young people are less likely -- far less likely to get sick, but they can. They can have long-hauling symptoms. We talked about this last week. But also, how do you protect the vulnerable in this case?

I think we have this graphic. What does vulnerable mean? So you're to have a certain segment of the population, young, healthy people who can go out and do whatever they want, and then about a 100 million people based on age and pre-existing conditions who, what, are essentially going to be in a cocoon for the rest of time. That's essentially what we've been trying to do.

I mean, older people have been largely staying at home, younger people more likely to go out, and what has happened? Just as you pointed out with William Haseltine, the virus still spreads into these vulnerable communities. Try as hard as you might, it just doesn't work.

So the false narrative is either you lock down or do nothing. That was never the choice. Still not the choice. There are countries around the world that never locked down. They have hundreds of deaths, not hundreds of thousands. So it doesn't work, it's not necessary, and a lot of people would die.

CAMEROTA: Sanjay, I think that something else has happened. I mean, I think that it's gone from being a concept that they were toying with, gone from being kind of, as you said, like something that they might be advocating in the abstract, they're doing it.

I mean, what you saw last night at the president's big rally, and he even touted it. I mean, he was saying at this rally, who's immune, who's immune? Raise your hand. Who's had this? I'm immune. Are you immune? I mean, in a sort of game-showy way. He's out in the crowd there doing it.

Now, we're seeing the visual representation of their move towards herd immunity. This is what -- they are now inflicting their idea of herd immunity on the country. I mean, to me, when I see this, it looks like this is what -- the way they have decided to go.

GUPTA: this is the embodiment, to me, of anti-science. I mean, this has been the conflict, I think, for months now, science and science denialists. To see the president who just had COVID, you know, was sick enough to be medevaced to the hospital, got three experimental drugs in order to help him, you know, if all of what they are telling us is true, then -- and then to go out and do this and say, don't fear this. I mean, it is the embodiment anti-science right now.

I mean, we've had this debate before in this country, but never like this. I've never seen the lines drawn so deeply between people who believe in science, advocate for science, and people who don't. And the president is very, tragically, sadly, embodying that right now.

And people are going to die as a result of that. I mean, there's no question. I mean, do we need more proof at this point? Those types of events, what happened at the White House, what happens at these rallies, they lead to people getting infected, getting hospitalized and even dying that otherwise wouldn't have.

BERMAN: Chris Christie has spent a week in the hospital. I mean, that that is not nothing. The president spent four nights in the hospital. We learned overnight that the wife of Labor Secretary Eugene Scalia, she was at that super-spreader/COVID party at the White House for the announcement of Amy Coney Barrett. We learned that she has now tested positive. So we are seeing play out.

Sanjay, don't go far. A lot more questions for you coming up for you later in the broadcast.

I want to play -- Alisyn was talking about the president last night talking about immunity sort of embracing this concept. Let's play that sound so people can see exactly what she was talking about there.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: To everyone fighting to recover from the virus, I feel your pain, because I felt your pain, and we will beat this virus together. And for those -- who has had it? Who has had it here? Who has had it? Yes, a lot of people, a lot of people. You're the people I want to say hello to, because you are right now immune. You're right now immune. Well, they say that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: So, joining us now, CNN Political Analyst David Gregory. David, we just got Sanjay's take on the public health of the concept of herd immunity.

[07:10:01]

But from a political standpoint, it seems to be that the president is now going out and campaigning on coronavirus for all, which seems like potentially not a great political strategy.

DAVID GREGORY, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I mean, I put it a little differently. I think what he's campaigning on is that, you know, coronavirus is something you can get over and that we shouldn't panic, that we should live with it, live carefully. One of his recent ads, which also included a clip from Tony Fauci, that Fauci complained about, but one of the ads says, you know, we have to live carefully.

Well, that's not what President Trump has done, but it is a message that they're using that we shouldn't panic, that you can get over it. That's what I think he's using. And the problem is, he's doing it in the face of more bad news. He's doing it in the face of an inconsistent message from the federal government and no real plan as we go into the fall and winter. It's just the idea that, well, you know, if you get it like me, you can get over it and we can just keep chugging along.

CAMEROTA: Yes. I mean, I think that the president has prided himself and we've seen evidence that his gut instincts work often. Certainly, he won in 2016 on his gut instincts, where he broke the mold, as we've talked about so often.

And I guess it's his gut instinct right now that to go with this herd immunity strategy, though our doctors and experts say, herd immunity doesn't work with coronavirus. It doesn't work. That's why you would have to get a vaccine every year. The immunity goes away.

We don't know if it goes away after weeks, months, we don't know right now. And so his gut instinct is telling him to go with a flawed premise. And, look, politically speaking, you're seeing that people aren't signing on to that one.

GREGORY: Well, I think that's the point. I mean, think about his pitch to suburban women, you know, would you please like me, he says. And what he continued to say in that moment at his rally was, after all, I kept you safe, I kept your community safe. What he was talking about is this approach, this law and order approach that really didn't fly during protests against racial injustice. Now, I think, he has pivoted to the --

CAMEROTA: Cliffhanger.

BERMAN: Let's try to get David back. I've got a lot more questions for him.

CAMEROTA: Okay. I can do that.

BERMAN: We'll try that connection back.

Can I -- let's go to one piece of news here while we're waiting to get David back. The Washington Post, we've been talking a lot about masks, right? This is not about coronavirus masks. This is about the issue of unmasking names that are redacted in intelligence documents.

Now, intelligence professionals will tell you this is a common and legal practice. But over the last few years, the president and his cronies have basically suggested there was some kind of scandal with people in the Obama administration unmasking names, asking to unredact the names on some of these intelligence documents.

And because of all of their shouting and screaming, William Barr, the attorney general, launched an investigation, a taxpayer-funded investigation into this, right?

CAMEROTA: Yes, U.S. Attorney John Bash looked into it and he found, as of, we know this morning, nothing.

BERMAN: The Washington Post reports that no criminal charges will be filed. No evidence of wrong doing big enough to pursue in any way, and importantly, not even a report is going to be written. He no longer works at the Justice Department. He's gone.

CAMEROTA: Right. He left. People don't know exactly why he left. He had an outside private sector offer. But I think that it is important to note these moments. When these conspiracy theories that the drum is beaten every night on some channels and then people think, uh-oh, there must be something there, because, obviously, they wouldn't devote this much airtime if there was nothing there. It turns out that this is the moment, mark your calendar, where nothing stemmed from that. They couldn't find any wrongdoing. No charges and no report, which is strange, and this is the moment. It evaporated.

Okay. I'm told David Gregory is back.

BERMAN: So let's get his take on that.

CAMEROTA: Okay. David, I didn't realize there was a light motif of masks through all of this, but John just drew that connection.

GREGORY: Yes, sorry, if you had only heard the rest of what I said, I think it was really, really edifying. So everybody --

BERMAN: As far as I'm concerned, it was some of your best commentary.

GREGORY: Yes. I mean, I'm going on and on and on thinking, it's so strange they haven't said anything in response. Now I know why.

CAMEROTA: It's that good.

GREGORY: I'm sorry.

BERMAN: We were talking about unmasking. We were talking, David, about The Washington Post report where, basically, unmasked, there was nothing there, never was anything there.

GREGORY: Well -- and there was so much invested and, I mean, it's really striking to see an attorney general who has been the kind of attorney general that the president said he wanted, someone who would carry his ball, who would carry his water, who would, you know, see through on his agenda to find those people who were after him, you know, looks into all of this and hasn't found anything, doesn't expect to report it out, it's not going to bring charges.

[07:15:09]

Now, of course, you have this president trashing his attorney general again, his second attorney general.

So I think it's obviously striking. And, you know, if you take a step back and you look at the president in the final weeks of this campaign, you know, he's had three big things, right? Which is, I'm the law and order president, you know, Biden was part of this huge attempt to spy on me, and the coronavirus isn't as bad as you think. And I can overcome it and the other guys are going to panic. All of these things are not going well. And I think this one is going to be particularly disappointing.

CAMEROTA: David Gregory, even better when unfrozen. Thank you. That's your new motto.

BERMAN: And thanks on your heroic efforts on getting back. I really appreciate it.

GREGORY: Well, you know, I work hard. I try hard.

CAMEROTA: He just froze again. Oh, my gosh. David, great to see you.

Okay. The FBI says Michigan's governor was not the only leader targeted in that kidnapping plot. Virginia's governor was also on the list. And he's going to join us live, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:20:00]

BERMAN: Developing this morning, the FBI now says that a group of extremists who allegedly plotted to kidnap Michigan's governor also discussed targeting Virginia's Democratic governor, Ralph Northam. And Governor Northam joins me. Governor, thank you so much for being with us this morning.

I understand at first your security detail was informed of this, you weren't directly, but how did you find out about this and what was your reaction when you learned? GOV. RALPH NORTHAM (D-VA): Well, John, thanks so much for having me this morning. And I hope that you and your viewers are staying safe and healthy.

You know, we've been dealing with threats way back since January. They've been multiple. We obviously work very closely with our security detail and they work with local officials, the FBI, and this was just yet another threat to us.

But I think the message, John, is that certainly, I don't govern under a cloud of intimidation. That's not who I am. And this is not about me. It's not about the governor of Michigan. This is about this country. And it's about a president that is emboldening these individuals, these white supremacists.

And this started, John, back in Charlottesville, back in 2017, with that tremendous tragedy when white supremacists marched into that city spewing their hatred and bigotry. Our president said that these were fine individuals. There's nothing fine about them, and then in April, by asking Virginians to liberate, he did the same in Michigan.

You know, leadership, words matter. And these people take their marching orders from people like the president and it's unfortunate and it needs to stop.

BERMAN: Just so people know what you're talking about, we can show them, just as that these groups who are charged with allegedly plotting to kidnap the Michigan governor, they -- the president tweeted in the spring, liberate Michigan. We can see that. And likewise, you can see it right there, he tweeted, liberate Virginia.

This was, I say, tweeted. That sometimes minimizes it. It was a call to his supporters to liberate Michigan and then liberate Virginia.

What do you think the connection is between those statements and these plots?

NORTHAM: Well, John, this was a couple of days after President Trump announced the guidelines of our CDC. The people that gave him advice asking -- Virginians asking Americans to wear a mask, ask them to social distance. And two days later, he says to liberate Virginia. So, you know, it's mixed messages coming out of Washington.

And you know, we've been fighting this biological war since February. We've fought it without any supplies, if not for the governors of this country, who we've worked so hard to get PPE, to get our testing, our tracing, if not for governors, we would be in a terrible position. And so there's a lack of leadership in Washington.

And, you know, I think people in this country, I realize that, John, and we've heard this saying, fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. Americans aren't going to let this happen again, and fool me (ph).

BERMAN: So, Governor, I know you say it doesn't phase you or you won't let it phase you or change the way you govern, but it's a remarkable thing when a group is arrested and charged with plotting to kidnap a governor of one state and a similar plot against another governor, at least discussing a plot against another governor. That would be you. An extraordinary thing, I have not heard anything like that before.

So given that and given that these are charges now being filed by the Justice Department, what have you heard directly from Attorney General William Barr?

NORTHAM: I've heard nothing. And, you know, I'll tell you what's disgraceful about this, John, I've been in harm's way. I served in the United States Army for eight years. I served during Desert Storm. And, you know, in that conflict, we knew that there were folks in other countries, in Iraq, that disliked us. And they were the ones spewing the hatred and the bigotry. And now it's coming from our own president.

And that's what's so disheartening to me as an American, as a governor, as a veteran. And then to have our president refer to people like me as losers and suckers, unacceptable. We're not going to let that happen again in this country.

BERMAN: Can I ask you another piece of news coming out of Virginia overnight, which is that, yesterday was supposed to be the last day for voter registration. But a cable was somehow cut and people couldn't register. Now, you're filing in federal court to extend the registration deadline and that hearing is actually 90 minutes from now. We could learn more.

But what do you say to skeptics or at least curious people who say, really, there was a cable cut on the last day of voter registration?

[07:25:05]

How can that be completely benign?

NORTHAM: Yes. It was inadvertently cut, that's clear. And a lawsuit has been filed. That's going to be heard at 9:00 this morning to extend the registration deadline through tomorrow, which is Thursday. And I certainly support this and I anticipate that will happen.

BERMAN: All right. Governor northam, we appreciate you being with us. We didn't get a chance to talk about it, but you are recovering from coronavirus too. Just very quickly, how are you feeling today?

NORTHAM: We're feeling great. And certainly the well wishers and the prayers that have come in around this country has been uplifting and has really kept our spirits up. And my wife and I feel great.

The message, though, John, this is a serious, a dangerous virus, it's a stubborn virus and it's something that we should all take seriously, continue to wear a mask, continue to distance and wash our hands. And together, we'll put this behind us and then move on to a new normal.

BERMAN: Governor Ralph Northam of Virginia, we appreciate you being with us. We are glad that you are recovering. Thank you. NORTHAM: Thank you.

BERMAN: So, a new warning from the CDC about the surge of coronavirus cases around the United States. The CDC director saying that part of the spread is coming from small family gatherings. What do we need to know about this moving forward?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:30:00]